Discussion:
What IS left of Brunel's Broad Gauge?
(too old to reply)
CJB
2015-03-09 23:03:59 UTC
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Found this image - I wonder of the coach has been rescued?

http://worcestervista.com/index.php/archives/2006/02/23/585/

Loading Image...

CJB
Optimist
2015-03-10 10:15:28 UTC
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Post by CJB
Found this image - I wonder of the coach has been rescued?
http://worcestervista.com/index.php/archives/2006/02/23/585/
http://worcestervista.com/images/brunelcarridge1.jpg
CJB
Well it is upright, which at least confirms Brunel's claim about stability!
Paul Harley
2015-03-10 17:38:52 UTC
Permalink
To answer the question posed in your title, a short stretch of
(genuine) broad gauge rails is installed at Didcot Railway Centre.

The replica broad gauge loco "Firefly" was withdrawn from service last
year awaiting boiler work, so it doesn't currently see any trains.

There's also a broad gauge wagon turntable, near the entrance.

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/guide/broadgauge.html

Paul Harley
Stephen Furley
2015-03-10 19:12:55 UTC
Permalink
I did some work on the broad gauge trackaork when it was originally laid; I believe some of the timbers have been replaced since then.

At that time there was a short section of an original broad gauge carriage hidden away at the back of the carriage shed. I can't remember if it was a complete compartment, or just one side of one, but it did show the cross section. There was talk of doing something with it one day, most visitors probably didn't see it because it was rather hidden out of the way.
b***@gmail.com
2015-03-10 21:11:33 UTC
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Post by Stephen Furley
I did some work on the broad gauge trackaork when it was originally laid; I believe some of the timbers have been replaced since then.
At that time there was a short section of an original broad gauge carriage hidden away at the back of the carriage shed. I can't remember if it was a complete compartment, or just one side of one, but it did show the cross section. There was talk of doing something with it one day, most visitors probably didn't see it because it was rather hidden out of the way.
The South Devon Railway has the 'last surviving broad-gauge engine' Tiny on display in the museum at Buckfastleigh station. http://www.southdevonrailway.co.uk/museum

Time was it was on the platform at Newton Abbot, I believe.

Around the rural stretches of ex-GWR territory you can still find odd bits of fencing posts, etc made up of what I always think of as recycled bridge rail (i.e. the cross-section has a hollow section). Can anyone confirm this is original broad-gauge rail re-used? Or is it some other bit of kit that just came in handy for fencing purposes.
Stephen Furley
2015-03-10 21:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Bridge rail was indeed used for fence posts, as was Barlow rail. Some of the bridge rail used for posts was certainly used and not just off-cuts of new rail because there was visible wear on it, but whether it was used for broad gauge is anybody's guess.

Bridge rail is not obsolete; it's still used today for things like overhead cranes.
chorleydnc@hotmail.com
2015-03-14 04:04:43 UTC
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ISTR that Birnbeck pier of Weston-super-Mare was constructed using bridge rail.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2015-05-09 15:20:39 UTC
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Post by ***@hotmail.com
ISTR that Birnbeck pier of Weston-super-Mare was constructed using bridge rail.
I've heard it said of Clevedon Pier, I think.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Peter Lawrence
2015-05-10 16:17:36 UTC
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Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by ***@hotmail.com
ISTR that Birnbeck pier of Weston-super-Mare was constructed using bridge rail.
I've heard it said of Clevedon Pier, I think.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
Sorry, Clevedon pier used (second-hand) Barlow rail. See Wikipaedia.

Peter Lawrence

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The Real Doctor
2015-05-10 16:33:34 UTC
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Post by Peter Lawrence
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by ***@hotmail.com
ISTR that Birnbeck pier of Weston-super-Mare was constructed using bridge rail.
I've heard it said of Clevedon Pier, I think.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
Sorry, Clevedon pier used (second-hand) Barlow rail. See Wikipaedia.
Is it not fair to say that Barlow rail is a form of bridge rail?

Ian
Stephen Furley
2015-05-10 21:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Almost any other use of Barlow rail, gate posts, building piers etc. is better than using it to run trains on.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2015-05-11 07:49:42 UTC
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Bridge and Barlow rail turn up fairly regularly as beams supporting short span structures - extensions to culverts during track widening. I've seen a few stations where it supports the platform above the staircases for subways. I even found some holding up a farmers bridge over the Stort near Sawbridgeworth. Lord knows how it got there.

Whoever begat British Steel has it in their catalogue - Bridge rail is decent stuff for overhead gantries, so if you are planning on Longitudinal timbers for your thorn shaped LGV, you can have it rolled to order

Andrew
Stephen Furley
2015-05-11 10:45:26 UTC
Permalink
The GWR had cast iron caps designed to fit on top of a pair of short lengths of Barlow rail placed base to base to form a squarish gate post.

I once saw a piece of Barlow rail sticking up out of the ground at Redmire of all places when I went there on a railtour.
R. Mark Clayton
2016-07-08 20:39:38 UTC
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Post by Stephen Furley
Bridge rail was indeed used for fence posts,
Yes I remember seeing some in the early 1970's used as fence posts for a fence of the GWR main line with a playing field. I am pretty sure it was original because it had alternate corroded holes on each side about 25cm apart. Whoever put up the fence had drilled newer neater and smaller holes for the wires.
Post by Stephen Furley
as was Barlow rail. Some of the bridge rail used for posts was certainly used and not just off-cuts of new rail because there was visible wear on it, but whether it was used for broad gauge is anybody's guess.
Bridge rail is not obsolete; it's still used today for things like overhead cranes.
Graeme Wall
2015-03-10 21:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Stephen Furley
I did some work on the broad gauge trackaork when it was originally laid; I believe some of the timbers have been replaced since then.
At that time there was a short section of an original broad gauge carriage hidden away at the back of the carriage shed. I can't remember if it was a complete compartment, or just one side of one, but it did show the cross section. There was talk of doing something with it one day, most visitors probably didn't see it because it was rather hidden out of the way.
The South Devon Railway has the 'last surviving broad-gauge engine' Tiny on display in the museum at Buckfastleigh station. http://www.southdevonrailway.co.uk/museum
Time was it was on the platform at Newton Abbot, I believe.
Was there until 1980
Post by b***@gmail.com
Around the rural stretches of ex-GWR territory you can still find odd bits of fencing posts, etc made up of what I always think of as recycled bridge rail (i.e. the cross-section has a hollow section). Can anyone confirm this is original broad-gauge rail re-used? Or is it some other bit of kit that just came in handy for fencing purposes.
Certainly bridge rail sections were used for fencing so some may still
be around.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
m***@wrg.org.uk
2015-03-11 08:48:15 UTC
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Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@gmail.com
Around the rural stretches of ex-GWR territory you can still find odd bits of fencing posts, etc made up of what I always think of as recycled bridge rail (i.e. the cross-section has a hollow section). Can anyone confirm this is original broad-gauge rail re-used? Or is it some other bit of kit that just came in handy for fencing purposes.
Certainly bridge rail sections were used for fencing so some may still
be around.
There are still a fair number of bits to be seen on the (formerly GWR-owned) Kennet & Avon Canal, as fenceposts and (I think) as the fendering on a turf-sided lock.

Wasn't there a length of broad gauge track discovered still in situ on a former siding / mineral line 20 years ago or so? I'm sure I remember reading it in a magazine. Somewhere around the Somerset / Devon boundary, if memory serves me right.

Martin L
Graeme Wall
2015-03-11 10:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@wrg.org.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@gmail.com
Around the rural stretches of ex-GWR territory you can still find odd bits of fencing posts, etc made up of what I always think of as recycled bridge rail (i.e. the cross-section has a hollow section). Can anyone confirm this is original broad-gauge rail re-used? Or is it some other bit of kit that just came in handy for fencing purposes.
Certainly bridge rail sections were used for fencing so some may still
be around.
There are still a fair number of bits to be seen on the (formerly GWR-owned) Kennet & Avon Canal, as fenceposts and (I think) as the fendering on a turf-sided lock.
Wasn't there a length of broad gauge track discovered still in situ on a former siding / mineral line 20 years ago or so? I'm sure I remember reading it in a magazine. Somewhere around the Somerset / Devon boundary, if memory serves me right.
Martin L
Burlescombe, the track was recovered and relaid at Didcot.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Robert
2015-03-11 17:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@wrg.org.uk
Post by b***@gmail.com
Around the rural stretches of ex-GWR territory you can still find odd
bits of fencing posts, etc made up of what I always think of as
recycled bridge rail (i.e. the cross-section has a hollow section). Can
anyone confirm this is original broad-gauge rail re-used? Or is it some
other bit of kit that just came in handy for fencing purposes.
Certainly bridge rail sections were used for fencing so some may still>
be around.
There are still a fair number of bits to be seen on the (formerly
GWR-owned) Kennet & Avon Canal, as fenceposts and (I think) as the
fendering on a turf-sided lock.
I've just walked past several pieces being used to support the edge of
the towpath near the site of the old Reading Central goods depot on the
navigable part of the Kennet in Reading.
Post by m***@wrg.org.uk
Wasn't there a length of broad gauge track discovered still in situ on
a former siding / mineral line 20 years ago or so? I'm sure I remember
reading it in a magazine. Somewhere around the Somerset / Devon
boundary, if memory serves me right.
Martin L
--
Robert
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2015-03-11 04:46:13 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:38:52 +0000, Paul Harley
Post by Paul Harley
To answer the question posed in your title, a short stretch of
(genuine) broad gauge rails is installed at Didcot Railway Centre.
The replica broad gauge loco "Firefly" was withdrawn from service last
year awaiting boiler work, so it doesn't currently see any trains.
There's also a broad gauge wagon turntable, near the entrance.
http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/guide/broadgauge.html
Paul Harley
Similar wagon turntables adapted to serve standard gauge as well
survived relatively unmolested at Exeter City Basin till recently
along with bits of mixed gauge siding.
Redevelopment for post industrial uses hasn't been that kind to them,
one has been preserved in situ by burying it beneath a building or at
the side depending who you believe.
Mentioned a fair way into this page,
http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/em/_scrapbook/21st_century_exeter.php

The other has been turned into a designer seat,not sure where the deck
went.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N06/8148219966/

G.Harman
CJB
2015-03-11 21:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by CJB
Found this image - I wonder of the coach has been rescued?
http://worcestervista.com/index.php/archives/2006/02/23/585/
http://worcestervista.com/images/brunelcarridge1.jpg
CJB
And what of the broad gauge harbour steam engines - 3 I believe - at Ponto Delgado in the Azores? CJB.
Auchtermuchty Weather
2015-05-11 17:23:01 UTC
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I guess the broad gauage stations on the Underground don't count?
Basil Jet
2015-05-11 17:26:51 UTC
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Post by Auchtermuchty Weather
I guess the broad gauage stations on the Underground don't count?
Are there any sleepers with extra nail holes left?
Cats
2015-05-13 18:25:08 UTC
Permalink
Nope, but there is room between the platforms and in the tunnels...
Stephen Furley
2015-05-13 19:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Broad gauge and mixed-gauge track did not normally use sleepers, but there are just a few metres of broad gauge sleepered track at Didcot so I suppose it must have existed to a limited extent, or they wouldn't have re-created it there.
Basil Jet
2015-05-13 19:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Furley
Broad gauge and mixed-gauge track did not normally use sleepers,
So how did they fix the distance between the rails?
Graeme Wall
2015-05-13 19:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Stephen Furley
Broad gauge and mixed-gauge track did not normally use sleepers,
So how did they fix the distance between the rails?
Gauge bars every few feet as seen at Didcot:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N05/14266771926>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Mark Goodge
2015-05-13 20:07:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 May 2015 20:33:21 +0100, Basil Jet put finger to keyboard and
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Stephen Furley
Broad gauge and mixed-gauge track did not normally use sleepers,
So how did they fix the distance between the rails?
They typically, at least to begin with, used longitudinal sleepers or
blocks linked by ties. Because the ties themselves were not load-bearing,
unlike transverse sleepers, they didn't need to be as closely spaced. This
woodcut illustrates it as well as anything:

Loading Image...

and this is a replica of early broad gauge track at Didcot Railway Centre:

Loading Image...

The move towards transverse sleepers had already started well before the
regauging, though, so there are plenty of later illustrations and photos of
broad gauge sleepered track.

Mark
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Stephen Furley
2015-05-13 20:19:14 UTC
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It was usually 'baulk road'. Each rail was bolted down to large longitudinal baulks of timber; the bolts alternating between each side of the bridge rail. The square-headed bolts are inserted from the top, passing through the foot of the rail, the packing pieces, the baulks, and then screwed into a metal 'fang shoe' which bites into the underneath of the baulk. At intervals the baulks are held apart be a timber transom. Alongside each transom is an iron tie-bar with nuts on each end holding the baulks tightly against the ends of the transom. On mixed-gauge track there will be three rails, mounted on three baulks, with two transoms, a long one between the common and narrow (standard) gauge baulks, and a short one between the narrow and broad gauge ones. The ends of the transoms are cut at an angle, and fit into angled notches cut into the sides of the baulks. The rails are not laid directly on the baulks, there are small cross-grained timber packing pieces placed between them.

Baulks road is still sometimes used, though obviously not broad gauge. The tracks in Paddington Station were still laid that way about ten years ago when I last looked; I don't know if they still are, or why it was done that way. Baulks road is also come times seen on bridges; I think that's done to reduce the weight.

If you look at photographs of broad gauge track you will see that the transoms are much more widely spaced than sleeps would be, but I can't remember what the distance was now.

I did some of the work on the broad-gauge track work at Didcon many years ago, mainly drilling 15/16 inch bolt holes in rail with an old fashioned ratchet drill which was found to be better for the task than a modern electric one. I also did some of the work on laying the edge slabs on the transfer shed platform.
Basil Jet
2015-05-13 20:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Furley
At intervals the baulks are held apart be a timber transom.
Held together, surely... unless the flanges on broad-gauge axles were on
the outside.
Stephen Furley
2015-05-13 20:52:44 UTC
Permalink
No, flanges are inside. The timber transoms fold the baulks apart at the correct gauge, and the metal tie-bars try to pull them together, against the ends of the transoms. The tie-bars can be quite thin, about an inch in diameter, because they will be in tension, while the transoms will be in compression.
Christopher A. Lee
2015-05-13 21:06:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 May 2015 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Furley
Post by Stephen Furley
No, flanges are inside. The timber transoms fold the baulks apart
at the correct gauge, and the metal tie-bars try to pull them together,
against the ends of the transoms. The tie-bars can be quite thin,
about an inch in diameter, because they will be in tension, while
the transoms will be in compression.
If the flanges were outside, the wheels wouldn't stay on the track.
Basil Jet
2015-05-13 22:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 13 May 2015 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Furley
Post by Stephen Furley
No, flanges are inside. The timber transoms fold the baulks apart
at the correct gauge, and the metal tie-bars try to pull them together,
against the ends of the transoms. The tie-bars can be quite thin,
about an inch in diameter, because they will be in tension, while
the transoms will be in compression.
If the flanges were outside, the wheels wouldn't stay on the track.
Good point!
Christopher A. Lee
2015-05-13 21:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Stephen Furley
At intervals the baulks are held apart be a timber transom.
Held together, surely... unless the flanges on broad-gauge axles were on
the outside.
Held apart is correct - they were held together by iron rods bolted to
the baulks.
Mark Goodge
2015-05-13 20:55:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 May 2015 13:19:14 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Furley put finger to
Post by Stephen Furley
It was usually 'baulk road'. Each rail was bolted down to large longitudinal baulks of timber; the bolts alternating between each side of the bridge rail. The square-headed bolts are inserted from the top, passing through the foot of the rail, the packing pieces, the baulks, and then screwed into a metal 'fang shoe' which bites into the underneath of the baulk. At intervals the baulks are held apart be a timber transom. Alongside each transom is an iron tie-bar with nuts on each end holding the baulks tightly against the ends of the transom. On mixed-gauge track there will be three rails, mounted on three baulks, with two transoms, a long one between the common and narrow (standard) gauge baulks, and a short one between the narrow and broad gauge ones. The ends of the transoms are cut at an angle, and fit into angled notches cut into the sides of the baulks. The rails are not laid directly on the baulks, there are small cross-grained timber packing pieces placed between them.
Baulks road is still sometimes used, though obviously not broad gauge. The tracks in Paddington Station were still laid that way about ten years ago when I last looked; I don't know if they still are, or why it was done that way. Baulks road is also come times seen on bridges; I think that's done to reduce the weight.
In stations, such as Paddington (which does still have it), the track is
laid directly onto the concrete subsystem. On bridges, it's used where the
baulks are attached directly to the bridge timbers rather than having
ballasted sleepers.

Mark
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Christopher A. Lee
2015-05-13 21:03:25 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Stephen Furley
Broad gauge and mixed-gauge track did not normally use sleepers,
So how did they fix the distance between the rails?
The rail was laid on longitudinal baulks, with cross members to stop
it getting too narrow, and iron bars bolted between them to prevent
the gauge spreading.
Graeme Wall
2015-05-13 19:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Furley
Broad gauge and mixed-gauge track did not normally use sleepers, but there are just a few metres of broad gauge sleepered track at Didcot so I suppose it must have existed to a limited extent, or they wouldn't have re-created it there.
An 1875 photo of Bristol Temple Meads clearly shows cross-sleepered
mixed gauge trackwork. Also cross-sleepered track in the West Country
by the 1890s

Great Western Broad Gauge Album.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Stephen Furley
2015-05-13 20:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Graeme. 1875 would have been quite late, and 1890s very late in the life of broad gauge; the last conversions were completed in 1892 I believe, so this would seem to be a later form of track. Can you see if the rail was bullhead in chairs, or still bridge rail? Sleepered track would probably be easier and faster to convert. Bridge rail was quite a light section, about 59 Lbs/yard, and I'm somewhat doubtful if it would stand up to heavy trains without the continuous support of the baulks. From memory, I think the few metres of cross-sleepered broad gauge track at Didcot, leading to the stop block was laid with bullhead rail.
Graeme Wall
2015-05-13 20:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Furley
Thank you Graeme. 1875 would have been quite late, and 1890s very late in the life of broad gauge; the last conversions were completed in 1892 I believe, so this would seem to be a later form of track. Can you see if the rail was bullhead in chairs, or still bridge rail? Sleepered track would probably be easier and faster to convert. Bridge rail was quite a light section, about 59 Lbs/yard, and I'm somewhat doubtful if it would stand up to heavy trains without the continuous support of the baulks. From memory, I think the few metres of cross-sleepered broad gauge track at Didcot, leading to the stop block was laid with bullhead rail.
The West Country tracks are definitely bullhead in chairs, The forground
tracks at Bristol are definitely bullhead but the tracks entering
Brunel's shed seem to be a mixture of mainly baulk road and some
cross-sleepered and the definition is not good enough to discern the
details.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Mark Goodge
2015-05-13 20:58:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 May 2015 20:54:25 +0100, Graeme Wall put finger to keyboard and
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Stephen Furley
Broad gauge and mixed-gauge track did not normally use sleepers, but there are just a few metres of broad gauge sleepered track at Didcot so I suppose it must have existed to a limited extent, or they wouldn't have re-created it there.
An 1875 photo of Bristol Temple Meads clearly shows cross-sleepered
mixed gauge trackwork. Also cross-sleepered track in the West Country
by the 1890s
Great Western Broad Gauge Album.
Here's a photo showing both types of track, both broad gauge, side by side:

Loading Image...

Mark
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Christopher A. Lee
2015-05-13 21:00:29 UTC
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On Wed, 13 May 2015 12:16:15 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Furley
Post by Stephen Furley
Broad gauge and mixed-gauge track did not normally use sleepers, but
there are just a few metres of broad gauge sleepered track at Didcot so
I suppose it must have existed to a limited extent, or they wouldn't have
re-created it there.
The last purely broad gauge section built was the St. Ives branch, and
that used cross sleepers.
p***@yahoo.com
2016-07-08 09:54:34 UTC
Permalink
I believe one of the last IN-SITU sections of Brunel's broadgauge railway is on the North Wharf of Sutton Harbour in Plymouth
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