How They Dug the Victoria Line

[Graeme Wall]

Now available on BBC iPlayer:

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victoria-line>

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Nowadays, you'd close all the roads for (allegedly) six months, then
take over a year to actually finish the works.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.
Nowadays, you'd close all the roads for (allegedly) six months, then
take over a year to actually finish the works.

Yes, very likely. I suppose the nearest equivalent with XR was TCR — does
anyone remember what road closures were needed, and for how long? I know
that they demolished some local buildings around the edges of the site.

What really struck me in this film was the clothes. Not a single high viz,
few helmets, and very few overalls. The construction men seemed to mostly
just wear their normal street clothes, including ordinary shoes and hats.
The managers kept their ties on, and many of the workers were smoking. No
female construction workers, of course.

The process of constructing the tunnel was very manual, with the tunnel
segments strong-armed into position, not moved by cranes or power tools.
Spectators got a good view of the work, with just low crowd barriers round
the site, not the high walls we get now.

[JMB99]

Post by Roland Perry
Nowadays, you'd close all the roads for (allegedly) six months, then
take over a year to actually finish the works.

The road contractor in Scotland often seem to announce they will be
closing a main road from 18:00 to 08:00 (usually only a very long detour
in the Highlands).

When people complain they will then change to 19:00h to 07:00h.

We have had months of long queues through the town (no alternative
route) and some overnight closures. All for a cycle route that will
probably used by only a handful of people.

Meanwhile, like many places, there are lots of potholes (or actually
many are sunken grids / manhole covers i.e. poor construction).

[Roland Perry]

Post by JMB99

Post by Roland Perry
Nowadays, you'd close all the roads for (allegedly) six months, then
take over a year to actually finish the works.

The road contractor in Scotland often seem to announce they will be
closing a main road from 18:00 to 08:00 (usually only a very long
detour in the Highlands).
When people complain they will then change to 19:00h to 07:00h.
We have had months of long queues through the town (no alternative
route) and some overnight closures. All for a cycle route that will
probably used by only a handful of people.
Meanwhile, like many places, there are lots of potholes (or actually
many are sunken grids / manhole covers i.e. poor construction).

I went past a sign yesterday on the outskirts of Ely [sorry] which said
a mini-roundabut was going to traffic management from Feb 24th, until
May 12th. That's ELEVEN WEEKS!

"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by JMB99

Post by Roland Perry
Nowadays, you'd close all the roads for (allegedly) six months, then
take over a year to actually finish the works.

The road contractor in Scotland often seem to announce they will be
closing a main road from 18:00 to 08:00 (usually only a very long
detour in the Highlands).
When people complain they will then change to 19:00h to 07:00h.
We have had months of long queues through the town (no alternative
route) and some overnight closures. All for a cycle route that will
probably used by only a handful of people.
Meanwhile, like many places, there are lots of potholes (or actually
many are sunken grids / manhole covers i.e. poor construction).

I went past a sign yesterday on the outskirts of Ely [sorry] which said
a mini-roundabut was going to traffic management from Feb 24th, until
May 12th. That's ELEVEN WEEKS!
"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

Depends on how much of the foot way is being improved. We had that round
our way, they gradually moved up the road, moving the traffic lights as
they progressed. There was also a huge margin of slack added to the
advertised length of time. I guess it’s much easier to apply for more time
than you need than to ask for more if things over run.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
I went past a sign yesterday on the outskirts of Ely [sorry] which said
a mini-roundabut was going to traffic management from Feb 24th, until
May 12th. That's ELEVEN WEEKS!
"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

Depends on how much of the foot way is being improved. We had that round
our way, they gradually moved up the road, moving the traffic lights as
they progressed. There was also a huge margin of slack added to the
advertised length of time. I guess it’s much easier to apply for more time
than you need than to ask for more if things over run.

It's probably just over 100m.

A similar scheme on the road near where my girlfriend lives was
scheduled for I think four weeks, and has just been extended by another
several weeks because they are behind.

[Certes]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by JMB99

Post by Roland Perry
Nowadays, you'd close all the roads for (allegedly) six months, then
take over a year to actually finish the works.

The road contractor in Scotland often seem to announce they will be
closing a main road from 18:00 to 08:00 (usually only a very long
detour in the Highlands).
When people complain they will then change to 19:00h to 07:00h.
We have had months of long queues through the town (no alternative
route) and some overnight closures. All for a cycle route that will
probably used by only a handful of people.
Meanwhile, like many places, there are lots of potholes (or actually
many are sunken grids / manhole covers i.e. poor construction).

I went past a sign yesterday on the outskirts of Ely [sorry] which said
a mini-roundabut was going to traffic management from Feb 24th, until
May 12th. That's ELEVEN WEEKS!
"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

Depends on how much of the foot way is being improved. We had that round
our way, they gradually moved up the road, moving the traffic lights as
they progressed. There was also a huge margin of slack added to the
advertised length of time. I guess it’s much easier to apply for more time
than you need than to ask for more if things over run.

Cameron Toll, a major junction in south Edinburgh, was closed in whole
or part for 25 weeks last year. and has 13 weeks of disruption scheduled
so far this year. Each organisation seems to start digging the week
after the previous one finishes resurfacing.
<https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburghs-cameron-toll-roundabout-timeline-of-closures-ahead-of-works-beginning-today-4940332>

[JMB99]

Post by Roland Perry
"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

Probably twice as long if a cycle lane!

I wonder often whether they do proper Cost Benefit Analysis for some
roadworks. There is often many months for disruption for very little
improvement (if any). I am sure most motorists would much prefer that
effort put into fixing potholes or sunken grids / manhole covers (which
are often actually the problem).

Even cyclists might prefer a better road surface rather than yet another
hardly used cycle lane.

To add insult to injury there is often a VMS sign "FRUSTRATION CAUSES
ACCIDENTS" when roadworks and 20 mph limits are probably the greatest
causes of frustration.

[Mark Goodge]

Post by JMB99

Post by Roland Perry
"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

Probably twice as long if a cycle lane!
I wonder often whether they do proper Cost Benefit Analysis for some
roadworks. There is often many months for disruption for very little
improvement (if any). I am sure most motorists would much prefer that
effort put into fixing potholes or sunken grids / manhole covers (which
are often actually the problem).

The majority of roadworks are carried out by utility companies installing or
accessing their cables and pipes underground. They do a very stringent
cost/benefit analysis on all their roadworks. But, of course, the benefit is
to their customers, not road users.

As far as resurfacing works are concerned, you're right that fixing potholes
has a more immediate benefit. But it's also a much shorter-lived benefit,
and hence the cost needs to be spent again in a relatively short time.
Resurfacing lasts a lot longer, but costs a lot more. So the cost/benefit
calculation here is how long you can afford to leave in between resurfacning
works before the cost of filling the potholes exceeds the cost of
resurfacing.

Mark

[ColinR]

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by JMB99

Post by Roland Perry
"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

Probably twice as long if a cycle lane!
I wonder often whether they do proper Cost Benefit Analysis for some
roadworks. There is often many months for disruption for very little
improvement (if any). I am sure most motorists would much prefer that
effort put into fixing potholes or sunken grids / manhole covers (which
are often actually the problem).

The majority of roadworks are carried out by utility companies installing or
accessing their cables and pipes underground. They do a very stringent
cost/benefit analysis on all their roadworks. But, of course, the benefit is
to their customers, not road users.
As far as resurfacing works are concerned, you're right that fixing potholes
has a more immediate benefit. But it's also a much shorter-lived benefit,
and hence the cost needs to be spent again in a relatively short time.
Resurfacing lasts a lot longer, but costs a lot more. So the cost/benefit
calculation here is how long you can afford to leave in between resurfacning
works before the cost of filling the potholes exceeds the cost of
resurfacing.
Mark

Slight amendment suggested - last bit should read "before the cost of
filling the potholes [and resulting claim costs] exceeds the cost of
resurfacing"

[Coffee]

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by JMB99

Post by Roland Perry
"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

Probably twice as long if a cycle lane!
I wonder often whether they do proper Cost Benefit Analysis for some
roadworks. There is often many months for disruption for very little
improvement (if any). I am sure most motorists would much prefer that
effort put into fixing potholes or sunken grids / manhole covers (which
are often actually the problem).

The majority of roadworks are carried out by utility companies installing or
accessing their cables and pipes underground. They do a very stringent
cost/benefit analysis on all their roadworks. But, of course, the benefit is
to their customers, not road users.
As far as resurfacing works are concerned, you're right that fixing potholes
has a more immediate benefit. But it's also a much shorter-lived benefit,
and hence the cost needs to be spent again in a relatively short time.
Resurfacing lasts a lot longer, but costs a lot more. So the cost/benefit
calculation here is how long you can afford to leave in between resurfacning
works before the cost of filling the potholes exceeds the cost of
resurfacing.

The local authority's budget also has a bearing on what works they can
afford to undertake.

[Certes]

Post by JMB99

Post by Roland Perry
"Works being carried out to improve/maintain the footway".

Probably twice as long if a cycle lane!
I wonder often whether they do proper Cost Benefit Analysis for some
roadworks.  There is often many months for disruption for very little
improvement (if any). I am sure most motorists would much prefer that
effort put into fixing potholes or sunken grids / manhole covers (which
are often actually the problem).

The benefits are non-financial, such as promoting active travel. Or, to
put it less charitably, it's political rather than for anyone's benefit.

Post by JMB99
Even cyclists might prefer a better road surface rather than yet another
hardly used cycle lane.
To add insult to injury there is often a VMS sign "FRUSTRATION CAUSES
ACCIDENTS" when roadworks and 20 mph limits are probably the greatest
causes of frustration.

[Peter Johnson]

Post by Roland Perry
The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

They called the temporary bridge/canopy the 'umbrella erection' at
first, but then they had second thoughts. There was an article about
it in The Guardian which, strangely, I have just brought to mind after
mor than 50 years.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by Roland Perry
The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

They called the temporary bridge/canopy the 'umbrella erection' at
first,

Very good, I couldn't recall the exact name.

Post by Peter Johnson
but then they had second thoughts.

I've seen scaffolding works with comedy signs on saying "This erection
is temporary".

Post by Peter Johnson
There was an article about it in The Guardian which, strangely, I have
just brought to mind after mor than 50 years.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by Roland Perry
The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

They called the temporary bridge/canopy the 'umbrella erection' at
first,

Very good, I couldn't recall the exact name.

Post by Peter Johnson
but then they had second thoughts.

I've seen scaffolding works with comedy signs on saying "This erection
is temporary".

C.S.Lewis and is friends the Inklings were apparently much tickled by a
student who wrote that the phenomenon of Courtly Love was “a huge mediaeval
erection”.

Sam

[Clank]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by Roland Perry
The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

They called the temporary bridge/canopy the 'umbrella erection' at
first,

Very good, I couldn't recall the exact name.

Post by Peter Johnson
but then they had second thoughts.

I've seen scaffolding works with comedy signs on saying "This erection
is temporary".

C.S.Lewis and is friends the Inklings were apparently much tickled by a
student who wrote that the phenomenon of Courtly Love was “a huge
mediaeval erection”.
Sam

I am reminded of the greatest sentence written in the history of sports
journalism. I believe it was on ESPN's website, and it was a story
covering the opening of Young Boys Bern's new stadium (the Wankdorf
Stadium), which had been much delayed for reasons I don't recall. Anyway,
the headline was...

Young Boys' Wankdorf Erection Relief

There were practically standing ovations from the journalists in our
newsroom at the time. I hope whichever journo/sub at ESPN wrote it got a
promotion...

[Nobody]

On Sun, 2 Mar 2025 05:07:43 -0000 (UTC), Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by Roland Perry
The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

They called the temporary bridge/canopy the 'umbrella erection' at
first,

Very good, I couldn't recall the exact name.

Post by Peter Johnson
but then they had second thoughts.

I've seen scaffolding works with comedy signs on saying "This erection
is temporary".

C.S.Lewis and is friends the Inklings were apparently much tickled by a
student who wrote that the phenomenon of Courtly Love was “a huge
mediaeval erection”.
Sam

I am reminded of the greatest sentence written in the history of sports
journalism. I believe it was on ESPN's website, and it was a story
covering the opening of Young Boys Bern's new stadium (the Wankdorf
Stadium), which had been much delayed for reasons I don't recall. Anyway,
the headline was...
Young Boys' Wankdorf Erection Relief
There were practically standing ovations from the journalists in our
newsroom at the time. I hope whichever journo/sub at ESPN wrote it got a
promotion...

Back in the 70's, a wag managed to insert a listing in Greater
Vancouver's White Pages tel. directory, distrubuted in those days to
all subscribers:

Rection, Hugh G. 73- ----.

I can't recall whether a street address was included.

[Marland]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by Roland Perry
The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

They called the temporary bridge/canopy the 'umbrella erection' at
first,

Very good, I couldn't recall the exact name.

Post by Peter Johnson
but then they had second thoughts.

I've seen scaffolding works with comedy signs on saying "This erection
is temporary".

There was a firm in the Hampshire area who supplied temporary traffic
lights for road works, their vehicle livery carried the slogan. ‘Jam
Makers since 1971 ‘ .

GH

[Ken]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

There are plenty of recent examples of railway bridges being replaced
overnight or over a weekend.

[Tweed]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

There are plenty of recent examples of railway bridges being replaced
overnight or over a weekend.

And one local to me got replaced as part of electrification works. Took
them around 10 months with everyone being forced round diversions and the
local garden centre getting compensation.

[JMB99]

Post by Graeme Wall
There are plenty of recent examples of railway bridges being replaced
overnight or over a weekend.

I suspect that, as with another comment about one being 'built'
overnight, that it is the closure of the road or line that is done
overnight and the preparation work and completion works takes many weeks.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by JMB99

Post by Graeme Wall
There are plenty of recent examples of railway bridges being replaced
overnight or over a weekend.

I suspect that, as with another comment about one being 'built'
overnight, that it is the closure of the road or line that is done
overnight and the preparation work and completion works takes many weeks.

But the disruption to the public is confined to the shortest possible
period. The Piccadilly Circus umbrella components were all built
beforehand before being brought to site at the right time.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

The entire throat of St Pancras was re-laid over a weekend.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

The entire throat of St Pancras was re-laid over a weekend.

Was that the one where the first train after the works finished derailed
because something wasn't connected up or was that Kings Cross?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

The entire throat of St Pancras was re-laid over a weekend.

Was that the one where the first train after the works finished
derailed because something wasn't connected up or was that Kings Cross?

They didn't do the KGX throat in one weekend, it took a couple of years
on and off. And yes, the first train out one morning-after derailed.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

The entire throat of St Pancras was re-laid over a weekend.

Possibly with a kit of parts that had been assembled beforehand,
checked for errors and then converted into a few lorry loads for
delivery ?

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
Was that the one where the first train after the works finished
derailed because something wasn't connected up or was that Kings Cross?

They didn't do the KGX throat in one weekend, it took a couple of years
on and off. And yes, the first train out one morning-after derailed.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

The entire throat of St Pancras was re-laid over a weekend.

Possibly with a kit of parts that had been assembled beforehand,
checked for errors and then converted into a few lorry loads for
delivery ?

The photos I've seen were similar to laying a 1:1 model railway. But the
achievement was doing that over one weekend, something they simply don't
seem to be able to contemplate today, despite the enduring possibility
of prefabrication.

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
Was that the one where the first train after the works finished
derailed because something wasn't connected up or was that Kings Cross?

They didn't do the KGX throat in one weekend, it took a couple of years
on and off. And yes, the first train out one morning-after derailed.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

The entire throat of St Pancras was re-laid over a weekend.

Possibly with a kit of parts that had been assembled beforehand,
checked for errors and then converted into a few lorry loads for
delivery ?

The photos I've seen were similar to laying a 1:1 model railway. But the
achievement was doing that over one weekend, something they simply don't
seem to be able to contemplate today, despite the enduring possibility
of prefabrication.

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
Was that the one where the first train after the works finished
derailed because something wasn't connected up or was that Kings Cross?

They didn't do the KGX throat in one weekend, it took a couple of years
on and off. And yes, the first train out one morning-after derailed.

The last photo of a pre-installation test assembly that I remember was
some years ago for a junction somewhere. I would not expect a weekend
to be enough on a large job if including delivery to site but
otherwise it might also depend on how many workers they can cram in
without falling over each other.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

[Certes]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

There does seem to be a lot of that around. I'm never sure whether it's
poor organisation - the hole they were sent to fill hasn't been dug; the
pipe they're supposed to remove is in use; they were given the wrong
shovels - or if the workers are just lazy.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 11:18:54 +0000

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in

hi-vis

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

There does seem to be a lot of that around. I'm never sure whether it's
poor organisation - the hole they were sent to fill hasn't been dug; the
pipe they're supposed to remove is in use; they were given the wrong
shovels - or if the workers are just lazy.

Probably a combination of all of the above. Its even worse on the roads
especially the motorways where they cone off miles and miles of carraigeway
in order to work on a few hundred metre stretch and often they're not even
doing that either. I can't remember how meny years the M1 just north of the
M25 was like that for, maybe 5. Ditto M3 though last time I went there even
though the roadworks had finished they'd left the 50mph speed restriction.
Naturally.

[Recliner]

Post by Certes

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

There does seem to be a lot of that around. I'm never sure whether it's
poor organisation - the hole they were sent to fill hasn't been dug; the
pipe they're supposed to remove is in use; they were given the wrong
shovels - or if the workers are just lazy.

I wonder if it's because multiple sub-contractors are involved, who are not all booked to show up in the right sequence
at the right time? So, some of the bods hanging around doing nothing might be sub-contractor staff who've turned up when
booked, but the pre-requisite earlier stage sub-contractor was booked for the next day?

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 12:11:59 +0000

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Certes

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000
As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in

hi-vis

Post by Certes

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

There does seem to be a lot of that around. I'm never sure whether it's
poor organisation - the hole they were sent to fill hasn't been dug; the
pipe they're supposed to remove is in use; they were given the wrong
shovels - or if the workers are just lazy.

I wonder if it's because multiple sub-contractors are involved, who are not
all booked to show up in the right sequence
at the right time? So, some of the bods hanging around doing nothing might be
sub-contractor staff who've turned up when
booked, but the pre-requisite earlier stage sub-contractor was booked for the next day?

Which falls under his point of poor organisation.

[Recliner]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 12:11:59 +0000

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Certes

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000
As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in

hi-vis

Post by Certes

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

There does seem to be a lot of that around. I'm never sure whether it's
poor organisation - the hole they were sent to fill hasn't been dug; the
pipe they're supposed to remove is in use; they were given the wrong
shovels - or if the workers are just lazy.

I wonder if it's because multiple sub-contractors are involved, who are not
all booked to show up in the right sequence
at the right time? So, some of the bods hanging around doing nothing might be
sub-contractor staff who've turned up when
booked, but the pre-requisite earlier stage sub-contractor was booked for the next day?

Which falls under his point of poor organisation.

Yes

[Charles Ellson]

On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 12:21:07 +0000, Recliner

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 12:11:59 +0000

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Certes

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000
As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in

hi-vis

Post by Certes

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

There does seem to be a lot of that around. I'm never sure whether it's
poor organisation - the hole they were sent to fill hasn't been dug; the
pipe they're supposed to remove is in use; they were given the wrong
shovels - or if the workers are just lazy.

I wonder if it's because multiple sub-contractors are involved, who are not
all booked to show up in the right sequence
at the right time? So, some of the bods hanging around doing nothing might be
sub-contractor staff who've turned up when
booked, but the pre-requisite earlier stage sub-contractor was booked for the next day?

Which falls under his point of poor organisation.

Yes

Or organisation which has to allow for work now dispersed to multiple
outsiders not being directly under the railway's control? That
balances against the possibility of leaving slack time for earlier
work being delayed by e.g. weather and the occasional plague.

[Marland]

Post by Certes

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

There does seem to be a lot of that around. I'm never sure whether it's
poor organisation - the hole they were sent to fill hasn't been dug; the
pipe they're supposed to remove is in use; they were given the wrong
shovels - or if the workers are just lazy.

To many parts of a project divided up between different contractors , the
more links you put in a chain the more chance one will break. Within one
organisation if a decision maker is absent for say urgent illness there is
usually someone who can backup , if it is another contractor though you
lose that immediacy as by the time someone waiting on site gets hold of
somebody which may mean going through yet another contractor whose job is
oversee them all a day has been wasted.
And the that day may now need total replanning weeks away rather than just
continue the next day as personnel and equipment is now going to another
job.


GH

[JMB99]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

Some time ago I watched (in a traffic jam) a mini-digger doing a job at
the side of the road with about three men with shovels watching. I bet
a couple of old time 'navvies' could have done whole job much quicker
with a couple of shovels and no mechanical aids.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by JMB99

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

Some time ago I watched (in a traffic jam) a mini-digger doing a job at
the side of the road with about three men with shovels watching. I bet
a couple of old time 'navvies' could have done whole job much quicker
with a couple of shovels and no mechanical aids.

If they could then their employer would not be shelling out for the
digger.

[ColinR]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by JMB99

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

Some time ago I watched (in a traffic jam) a mini-digger doing a job at
the side of the road with about three men with shovels watching. I bet
a couple of old time 'navvies' could have done whole job much quicker
with a couple of shovels and no mechanical aids.

If they could then their employer would not be shelling out for the
digger.

They probably could, but the fear of claims under 'elf n safety overrule
the extra cost.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

There are big signs on the M25 (/A3) junction saying something like "We
are working hard to get this done, even though you can't see us". It
must be at least a year by now, and looks about half-done.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

There are big signs on the M25 (/A3) junction saying something like "We
are working hard to get this done, even though you can't see us". It
must be at least a year by now, and looks about half-done.

Most of the on-site work gets done on well advertised weekend closures.
Still takes the numptys by surprise that when they say the road is going
to be closed the road is closed.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:51 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to
cockfosters depot since officially july last year (but tree
clearing was done earlier) for the new 24 stock, but so far all
they've managed is to lift some track and lay new cable guides but
whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in hi-vis hanging
around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

There are big signs on the M25 (/A3) junction saying something like
"We are working hard to get this done, even though you can't see us".
It must be at least a year by now, and looks about half-done.

Most of the on-site work gets done on well advertised weekend closures.
Still takes the numptys by surprise that when they say the road is
going to be closed the road is closed.

Yes, it's only completely closed on certain advertised weekends.

In the mean time it's as good as closed in between, due to the
catastrophically bad traffic management through the part-done works.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2025 07:31:12 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson
Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

There are big signs on the M25 (/A3) junction saying something like "We
are working hard to get this done, even though you can't see us". It
must be at least a year by now, and looks about half-done.

Thats just a feeble attempt to calm irritated drivers. If there's no one
there then no one is working hard unless everything is being done in the
small hours.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 25 Feb 2025 07:31:12 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson
Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

There are big signs on the M25 (/A3) junction saying something like "We
are working hard to get this done, even though you can't see us". It
must be at least a year by now, and looks about half-done.

Thats just a feeble attempt to calm irritated drivers. If there's no one
there then no one is working hard unless everything is being done in the
small hours.

There have been a lot of miscellaneous overnight works in recent
months around various bits of the M25. My cousin has been sent on
various early morning mystery tours because of it. It hasn't been
helped by maintenance closures of the Dartford Crossing and several
lorry fires and crashes.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2025 09:30:46 +0000

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 25 Feb 2025 07:31:12 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson
Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

There are big signs on the M25 (/A3) junction saying something like "We
are working hard to get this done, even though you can't see us". It
must be at least a year by now, and looks about half-done.

Thats just a feeble attempt to calm irritated drivers. If there's no one
there then no one is working hard unless everything is being done in the
small hours.

There have been a lot of miscellaneous overnight works in recent
months around various bits of the M25. My cousin has been sent on
various early morning mystery tours because of it. It hasn't been
helped by maintenance closures of the Dartford Crossing and several
lorry fires and crashes.

I've given up going to Kent unless there's no choice now. Getting there is
fine but coming back via the dartford tunnel is just a miserable experience.
Miles of jams just because a small percentage of drivers thing 15mph is a
reasonable speed to drive through it at. And you pay for the priviledge.
As for the blackwall tunnel, OMG.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 25 Feb 2025 09:30:46 +0000

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 25 Feb 2025 07:31:12 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson
Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

There are big signs on the M25 (/A3) junction saying something like "We
are working hard to get this done, even though you can't see us". It
must be at least a year by now, and looks about half-done.

Thats just a feeble attempt to calm irritated drivers. If there's no one
there then no one is working hard unless everything is being done in the
small hours.

There have been a lot of miscellaneous overnight works in recent
months around various bits of the M25. My cousin has been sent on
various early morning mystery tours because of it. It hasn't been
helped by maintenance closures of the Dartford Crossing and several
lorry fires and crashes.

I've given up going to Kent unless there's no choice now. Getting there is
fine but coming back via the dartford tunnel is just a miserable experience.
Miles of jams just because a small percentage of drivers thing 15mph is a
reasonable speed to drive through it at. And you pay for the priviledge.
As for the blackwall tunnel, OMG.

There is always the Woolwich Ferry…

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
I've given up going to Kent unless there's no choice now. Getting
there is fine but coming back via the dartford tunnel is just a
miserable experience. Miles of jams just because a small percentage
of drivers thing 15mph is a reasonable speed to drive through it at.
And you pay for the priviledge. As for the blackwall tunnel, OMG.

There is always the Woolwich Ferry

Hands up who remembers the steam-powered ferry?

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2025 09:46:01 +0000

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
I've given up going to Kent unless there's no choice now. Getting there is
fine but coming back via the dartford tunnel is just a miserable experience.
Miles of jams just because a small percentage of drivers thing 15mph is a
reasonable speed to drive through it at. And you pay for the priviledge.
As for the blackwall tunnel, OMG.

There is always the Woolwich Ferry


Done that twice, but only to give the sprog a ferry ride. Its not a realistic
way to get across the thames if you want to get anywhere quickly, way too slow,
not just the ferry itself and the its queues but getting to it in the first
place from both sides is a traffic nightmare.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2025 01:52:08 +0000

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
As a comparison , they've been working on the upgrades to cockfosters depot
since officially july last year (but tree clearing was done earlier) for the
new 24 stock, but so far all they've managed is to lift some track and lay
new cable guides but whenever I go there there's always 5-10 numpties in

hi-vis

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hanging around in the mud doing nothing. Sums up the UK today frankly.

Probably there to stop people nicking anything so that there is still
something left to work with later. Or maybe you aren't going there at
the right time?

WHo knows what they're doing. Progress is glacial regardless. At the rate
they're going they won't be able to accept many of the new stock because
there'll have nowhere to put them.

On a related topic, someone I know who knows someone who works in TfL
engineering told me that the delays in introducing the new stock has something
to do with problems with the wheels. He's not into railways but from what
he said it sounds like the wheels were delivered with the wrong profile
and are having to be reprofiled.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

The necessary preceding work would have been done in the weeks and
nights for some time before that. The "joining up" bit is an
uninterrupted process that takes longer than just an overnight closure
and has to be done as a complete operation. The equivalent at a road
junction often involves bodges that can temporarily stay in place and
use without proper resurfacing, remarking etc.

Post by Ken
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

Probably aleady built (or part-built) before delivery to site? You
can't do that with a tunnel.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

The necessary preceding work would have been done in the weeks and
nights for some time before that. The "joining up" bit is an
uninterrupted process that takes longer than just an overnight closure
and has to be done as a complete operation. The equivalent at a road
junction often involves bodges that can temporarily stay in place and
use without proper resurfacing, remarking etc.

Post by Ken
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

Probably aleady built (or part-built) before delivery to site? You
can't do that with a tunnel.

Yes you can! The tunnel linings are factory-made, unless you go for the
sprayed-concrete approach which didn't work very well at Heathrow.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

The necessary preceding work would have been done in the weeks and
nights for some time before that. The "joining up" bit is an
uninterrupted process that takes longer than just an overnight closure
and has to be done as a complete operation. The equivalent at a road
junction often involves bodges that can temporarily stay in place and
use without proper resurfacing, remarking etc.

Post by Ken
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

Probably aleady built (or part-built) before delivery to site? You
can't do that with a tunnel.

Yes you can! The tunnel linings are factory-made, unless you go for the
sprayed-concrete approach which didn't work very well at Heathrow.

The linings are but the hole round the outside isn't. The nearest is
possibly when bits of tube tunnel have had their diameter increased by
inserted extra sections into the rings.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Ken
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

Probably aleady built (or part-built) before delivery to site? You
can't do that with a tunnel.

Yes you can! The tunnel linings are factory-made, unless you go for the
sprayed-concrete approach which didn't work very well at Heathrow.

The linings are but the hole round the outside isn't.

Indeed because that's "boring".

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victor
ia-line>

The bit I remember was when they put the temporary bridge/canopy over
Oxford Circus in one weekend, so the traffic could continue to flow.

Yes, and they swung the Piccadilly Line over to its new station tunnel
at Finsbury Park over a long weekend. Again, I can't see that
happening today.

The necessary preceding work would have been done in the weeks and
nights for some time before that. The "joining up" bit is an
uninterrupted process that takes longer than just an overnight closure
and has to be done as a complete operation. The equivalent at a road
junction often involves bodges that can temporarily stay in place and
use without proper resurfacing, remarking etc.

Post by Ken
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

Probably aleady built (or part-built) before delivery to site? You
can't do that with a tunnel.

Yes you can! The tunnel linings are factory-made, unless you go for the
sprayed-concrete approach which didn't work very well at Heathrow.

NASTM is widely used for underground stations and junctions, usually
without problems, but it does require fast working and a high skill level.
For example, the huge XR stations were built that way, mostly without
problems, but XR’s sole fatality happened during a concrete spraying
operation:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/28/crossrail-firm-fined-1m-over-workers-death-and-other-breaches

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Ken
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

Probably aleady built (or part-built) before delivery to site? You
can't do that with a tunnel.

Yes you can! The tunnel linings are factory-made, unless you go for the
sprayed-concrete approach which didn't work very well at Heathrow.

NASTM is widely used for underground stations and junctions, usually
without problems, but it does require fast working and a high skill level.
For example, the huge XR stations were built that way, mostly without
problems, but XR’s sole fatality happened during a concrete spraying

Just because you *can* use NASTM where appropriate doesn't mean that
tunnel segments are *never* used, which was the suggestion earlier. "You
can't have prefabricated items used within a tunnel".

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Ken
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

Probably aleady built (or part-built) before delivery to site? You
can't do that with a tunnel.

Yes you can! The tunnel linings are factory-made, unless you go for the
sprayed-concrete approach which didn't work very well at Heathrow.

NASTM is widely used for underground stations and junctions, usually
without problems, but it does require fast working and a high skill level.
For example, the huge XR stations were built that way, mostly without
problems, but XR’s sole fatality happened during a concrete spraying

Just because you *can* use NASTM where appropriate doesn't mean that
tunnel segments are *never* used, which was the suggestion earlier. "You
can't have prefabricated items used within a tunnel".

I think 'item' in that context referred to large assemblies (like a bridge deck or fully assembled truss), not
individual components.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Ken
But wasn't one of the slew bridges just outside Waterloo built in
hours?

Probably aleady built (or part-built) before delivery to site? You
can't do that with a tunnel.

Yes you can! The tunnel linings are factory-made, unless you go for the
sprayed-concrete approach which didn't work very well at Heathrow.

NASTM is widely used for underground stations and junctions, usually
without problems, but it does require fast working and a high skill level.
For example, the huge XR stations were built that way, mostly without
problems, but XR’s sole fatality happened during a concrete spraying

Just because you *can* use NASTM where appropriate doesn't mean that
tunnel segments are *never* used, which was the suggestion earlier. "You
can't have prefabricated items used within a tunnel".

I think 'item' in that context referred to large assemblies (like a bridge deck or fully assembled truss), not
individual components.

"Item" was my word, "something part-built" is a tunnel lining segment.