Shepherds Bush (LO) - Wembley Central journey : some questions.

[Uncle-C]

Something which I wanted to do for sometime but only just got the
opportunity on Saturday and that was the Shepherds Bush to Wembley
Central along part of the WLL and then the freight lines into Wembley
Central. A very interesting journey indeed and there were a fair few
enthusiasts onboard as well. A couple of things arising from the
journey, firstly is the Southern trains journey to MIlton Keynes the
only regular passenger service on this stretch ? Secondly, we went
past several depots and idle freight trains so do a lot of enthusiasts
like doing this little trip ? Does the stretch of line which starts
just at the Mitre Bridge junction and continues on to link up close
to the WCML have a specific name ? I was so busy looking at the
various idle freight that I did not make a note of all the junctions
we went through upon reaching Wembley Central except one called
"Sudbury junction." Does anyone one have knowledge off all the
junctions on the route ?

cheers
uc

[Paul Weaver]

Post by Uncle-C
Something which I wanted to do for sometime but only just got the
opportunity on Saturday and that was the Shepherds Bush to Wembley
Central along part of the WLL and then the freight lines into Wembley
Central. A very interesting journey indeed and there were a fair few
enthusiasts onboard as well.

How strange, it's not an unusual working

Post by Uncle-C
A couple of things arising from the
journey, firstly is the Southern trains journey to MIlton Keynes the
only regular passenger service on this stretch ?

Yes, every hour about 14 times a day.

Post by Uncle-C
Secondly, we went
past several depots and idle freight trains so do a lot of enthusiasts
like doing this little trip ?

I usually do it twice a day, occasionally I've seen someone obviously
into trains. There's an AC-DC changeover too on the route (but outside
of a station) which is another "highlight"

[Simon Barber]

Post by Paul Weaver

Post by Uncle-C
Something which I wanted to do for sometime but only just got the
opportunity on Saturday and that was the Shepherds Bush to Wembley
Central along part of the WLL and then the freight lines into Wembley
Central. A very interesting journey indeed and there were a fair few
enthusiasts onboard as well.

How strange, it's not an unusual working

Post by Uncle-C
A couple of things arising from the
journey, firstly is the Southern trains journey to MIlton Keynes the
only regular passenger service on this stretch ?

Yes, every hour about 14 times a day.

Post by Uncle-C
Secondly, we went
past several depots and idle freight trains so do a lot of enthusiasts
like doing this little trip ?

I usually do it twice a day, occasionally I've seen someone obviously
into trains. There's an AC-DC changeover too on the route (but outside
of a station) which is another "highlight"

I have done this recently for the first time, too, and also found it
interesting. But VERY slow! A lot of the distance has a 20 mph limit
and some is 15 mph. The track quality seems good and I cannot see the
reason for the extreme restrictions, except on the sharp and steeply
graded curves where the former freight lines cross unde the WCML. The
AC-DC change north of Shepherds Bush station is another time-waster;
heaven knows why the overhead can't be extended the short distance to
the station to combine the stops into one. I found the trains
surprisingly busy off-peak so it seems the line taps into otherwise
unsatisfied travel demand, which is always good to see. My journey, by
the way, was Crewe to Farnborough and the NXEC site suggested a route
changing at MKC and Clapham Junction. It is almost exactly the same end
to end journey time as the two more obvious alternatives, via Euston &
Waterloo [depends on your X-London transfer time, obviously], or via
Birmingham and Basingstoke.

[Paul Scott]

Post by Simon Barber
I have done this recently for the first time, too, and also found it
interesting. But VERY slow! A lot of the distance has a 20 mph limit and
some is 15 mph. The track quality seems good and I cannot see the reason
for the extreme restrictions, except on the sharp and steeply graded
curves where the former freight lines cross unde the WCML.

Apparently it is an intentionally slow section, otherwise they cannot match
the WCML path with the WLL path. At the same time it means any WCML delays
that do occur aren't imported onto the WLL or slow lines south of Clapham
Junction, and vice versa.

Post by Simon Barber
The AC-DC change north of Shepherds Bush station is another time-waster;
heaven knows why the overhead can't be extended the short distance to the
station to combine the stops into one.

The usual reason given (it is in an online NR publication somewhere) is that
it would require the LU Hammersmith and City line signalling to be AC
immunised where it crosses above the WLL. It isn't cost effective to do this
in advance of H&C resignalling in a few years time, and even then I doubt it
would be extended unless there were major timetabling advantages to be
gained. Others have mentioned lack of headroom for OHLE at the same
overbridge, but NR don't IIRC.

Paul

[THC]

Post by Paul Scott

Post by Simon Barber
The AC-DC change north of Shepherds Bush station is another time-waster;
heaven knows why the overhead can't be extended the short distance to the
station to combine the stops into one.

The usual reason given (it is in an online NR publication somewhere) is that
it would require the LU Hammersmith and City line signalling to be AC
immunised where it crosses above the WLL. It isn't cost effective to do this
in advance of H&C resignalling in a few years time

I've often mused, while sitting on a Desiro or Electorstar at the
changeover point, whether it wouldn't be more cost-effective to build
a basic station to serve the local community roundabout instead of
extending catenary southwards to SB. The immediate area is poorly
served by rail and the space exists for a two-platform station. It
seems to me a simple choice between operational convenience and public
utility although, in the current econo-political climate, 'do nothing'
is likely to be the winner.

THC

[Peter Masson]

Post by THC
I've often mused, while sitting on a Desiro or Electorstar at the
changeover point, whether it wouldn't be more cost-effective to build
a basic station to serve the local community roundabout instead of
extending catenary southwards to SB. The immediate area is poorly
served by rail and the space exists for a two-platform station. It
seems to me a simple choice between operational convenience and public
utility although, in the current econo-political climate, 'do nothing'
is likely to be the winner.

There used (until the Germans dropped an incendiary bomb on it in 1940) to
be a station quite close to where the changeover point is now. To quote
Edwin Course, 'as its name implies, St Quintin Park and Wormwood Scrubs was
poised uncertainly between two areas, but was not well placed for either of
them.'

Peter

[Andy]

Post by Paul Scott

Post by Simon Barber
I have done this recently for the first time, too, and also found it
interesting.  But VERY slow!  A lot of the distance has a 20 mph limit and
some is 15 mph.  The track quality seems good and I cannot see the reason
for the extreme restrictions, except on the sharp and steeply graded
curves where the former freight lines cross unde the WCML.

Apparently it is an intentionally slow section, otherwise they cannot match
the WCML path with the WLL path. At the same time it means any WCML delays
that do occur aren't imported onto the WLL or slow lines south of Clapham
Junction, and vice versa.

What's never been explained properly is why the Southern services,
after their long slow trundle from Wembley to Shepherd's Bush, often
wait several minutes before continuing to Clapham Junction, where
there is also a wait before they run to East Croydon. I understand
that getting paths on the WCML and the Brighton Main line to fit
together is difficult but it seems a bit unnecessary to have longish
waits at both Shepherd's Bush and Clapham Junction, especially as
waiting at Shepherd's Bush is eating up capacity; surely it is better
to put nearly all the waiting time at Clapham Junction, in both
directions, which may allow faster connections and will reduce journey
times from the north to the Kensington area.

Post by Paul Scott

Post by Simon Barber
The AC-DC change north of Shepherds Bush station is another time-waster;
heaven knows why the overhead can't be extended the short distance to the
station to combine the stops into one.

The usual reason given (it is in an online NR publication somewhere) is that
it would require the LU Hammersmith and City line signalling to be AC
immunised where it crosses above the WLL. It isn't cost effective to do this
in advance of H&C resignalling in a few years time, and even then I doubt it
would be extended unless there were major timetabling advantages to be
gained.  Others have mentioned lack of headroom for OHLE at the same
overbridge, but NR don't IIRC.

I think it will happen, after the H&C is resignalled, as it will free
the time currently taken for the voltage changeover. My memory is that
the actual stringing up of the wires would be quite cheap and no
further power supply point would be needed. The West London line is
already getting very overcrowded during the peaks and movement of the
changeover at a station would allow more trains to run per hour.

[John Kenyon]

Post by Simon Barber

Post by Paul Weaver

Post by Uncle-C
Something which I wanted to do for sometime but only just got the
opportunity on Saturday and that was the Shepherds Bush to Wembley
Central along part of the WLL and then the freight lines into Wembley
Central. A very interesting journey indeed and there were a fair few
enthusiasts onboard as well.

How strange, it's not an unusual working

Post by Uncle-C
A couple of things arising from the
journey, firstly is the Southern trains journey to MIlton Keynes the
only regular passenger service on this stretch ?

Yes, every hour about 14 times a day.

Post by Uncle-C
Secondly, we went
past several depots and idle freight trains so do a lot of enthusiasts
like doing this little trip ?

I usually do it twice a day, occasionally I've seen someone obviously
into trains. There's an AC-DC changeover too on the route (but outside
of a station) which is another "highlight"

I have done this recently for the first time, too, and also found it
interesting. But VERY slow! A lot of the distance has a 20 mph limit
and some is 15 mph. The track quality seems good and I cannot see the
reason for the extreme restrictions, except on the sharp and steeply
graded curves where the former freight lines cross unde the WCML. The
AC-DC change north of Shepherds Bush station is another time-waster;
heaven knows why the overhead can't be extended the short distance to
the station to combine the stops into one.

The OHLE ends just before the line passes under the Westway, and was
installed before Shepherd's Bush station opened.

IIRC The 319's used to do the switch over while coasting.

/jk

[Peter Lawrence]

Post by Uncle-C
Something which I wanted to do for sometime but only just got the
opportunity on Saturday and that was the Shepherds Bush to Wembley
Central along part of the WLL and then the freight lines into Wembley
Central. A very interesting journey indeed and there were a fair few
enthusiasts onboard as well. A couple of things arising from the
journey, firstly is the Southern trains journey to MIlton Keynes the
only regular passenger service on this stretch ?

Yes (except for the Shepherds Bush - Mitre Bridge stretch).

Post by Uncle-C
Secondly, we went
past several depots and idle freight trains so do a lot of enthusiasts
like doing this little trip ? Does the stretch of line which starts
just at the Mitre Bridge junction and continues on to link up close
to the WCML have a specific name ?

It is (the northern extremity of) the West london line; the junction
is West london Junction..

Post by Uncle-C
I was so busy looking at the
various idle freight that I did not make a note of all the junctions
we went through upon reaching Wembley Central except one called
"Sudbury junction." Does anyone one have knowledge off all the
junctions on the route ?

Quail lists the current names as, after West london Junction as above,
Willesden Junction (Acton branch) where the line to Acton Wells
branches off, Wembley Yd South Junction by the west end of the Royal
Mail depot, Sudbury Junction - crossovers to WCML slow lines, and
Wembley Central Junction - final connection with the WCML The
Southern trains join the WCML at either of the latter two junctions,
or on occasion at West London Junction (which takes some of the fun
out of the journey but speeds it up). .

Peter Lawrence

[Andy]

Post by Peter Lawrence

Post by Uncle-C
Something which I wanted to do for sometime but only just got the
opportunity on Saturday and that was the Shepherds Bush to Wembley
Central along part of the WLL and then the freight lines into Wembley
Central. A very interesting journey indeed and there were a fair few
enthusiasts onboard as well. A couple of things arising from the
journey, firstly is the Southern trains journey to MIlton Keynes the
only regular passenger service on this stretch ?

Yes (except for the Shepherds Bush - Mitre Bridge stretch).

The West London Junction to Sudbury Junction route via the Willesden
Relief lines (which are what the dive under route is called) does also
see infrequent trains from Euston, I've managed it three times so far
this year, two of them on a Sunday. Such trains normally leave Euston
on the fast lines, instead of the booked slow line.

Post by Peter Lawrence

Post by Uncle-C
Secondly, we went
past several depots and idle freight trains so do a lot of enthusiasts
like doing this little trip ? Does the stretch of line which starts
just at the Mitre Bridge junction  and continues on to link up close
to the WCML have a specific name ?  

It is (the northern extremity of) the West london line; the junction
is West london Junction..

Post by Uncle-C
I was so busy looking at the
various idle freight that I did not make a note of all the junctions
we went through upon reaching Wembley Central except one called
"Sudbury junction." Does anyone one have knowledge off all the
junctions on the route ?

Quail lists the current names as, after West london Junction as above,
Willesden Junction (Acton branch) where the line to Acton Wells
branches off, Wembley Yd South Junction by the west end of the Royal
Mail depot, Sudbury Junction - crossovers to WCML slow lines, and
Wembley Central Junction - final connection with the WCML  The
Southern trains join the WCML at either of the latter two junctions,
or on occasion at West London Junction (which takes some of the fun
out of the journey but speeds it up). .

These days, all the Southern services are booked to cross between the
slow and the relief lines at Sudbury Junction; on Sundays, the
connection at West London Junction can be used, when the slow lines
are closed for engineering; this can be checked from the Journey
Planner as, on these days, the Southern service leaves Watford
Junction about 5 mins later when heading south. I've only managed the
connection at Wembley Central Junction once this year, due to a
freight being in the way at Sudbury Junction.