Boundary Zone 6 tickets

[r***@gmail.com]

Normally if you buy a Day Travelcard for Zones 1-6 and want to extend it to somewhere outside the zones, you get a "Boundary Zone 6" to xxx ticket. But Boundary Zone 6 tickets aren't available online. Is it OK to buy a ticket from the outermost Zone 6 station instead?

[Clive Page]

Post by r***@gmail.com
Normally if you buy a Day Travelcard for Zones 1-6 and want to extend it to somewhere outside the zones, you get a "Boundary Zone 6" to xxx ticket. But Boundary Zone 6 tickets aren't available online. Is it OK to buy a ticket from the outermost Zone 6 station instead?

I'm not an expert, but I think it is. Sometimes at a ticket office I
have been issued with a ticket from the outermost station when
requesting a BZ6 ticket, and when I queried it, the clerk has said that
if the fare is the same, it's valid. But that's not an authoritative
answer, just some ticket clerk trying to save time (or perhaps making up
for a deficiency in the ticket machine).

It may be worth checking the fares to make sure they are the same, the
excellent website www.brfares.com does include Boundary Zone 6 as an
origin point, which makes up for the deficiency on the nationalrail
website.

[Mizter T]

Post by Clive Page

Post by r***@gmail.com
Normally if you buy a Day Travelcard for Zones 1-6 and want to extend
it to somewhere outside the zones, you get a "Boundary Zone 6" to xxx
ticket. But Boundary Zone 6 tickets aren't available online. Is it
OK to buy a ticket from the outermost Zone 6 station instead?

I'm not an expert, but I think it is. Sometimes at a ticket office I
have been issued with a ticket from the outermost station when
requesting a BZ6 ticket, and when I queried it, the clerk has said that
if the fare is the same, it's valid. But that's not an authoritative
answer, just some ticket clerk trying to save time (or perhaps making up
for a deficiency in the ticket machine).

In contrast, I think strictly speaking it's not legit, though
nonetheless it does seem to be common practice / accepted at least on
some routes.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Mizter T

Post by Clive Page

Post by r***@gmail.com
Normally if you buy a Day Travelcard for Zones 1-6 and want to extend
it to somewhere outside the zones, you get a "Boundary Zone 6" to xxx
ticket. But Boundary Zone 6 tickets aren't available online. Is it
OK to buy a ticket from the outermost Zone 6 station instead?

I'm not an expert, but I think it is. Sometimes at a ticket office I
have been issued with a ticket from the outermost station when
requesting a BZ6 ticket, and when I queried it, the clerk has said that
if the fare is the same, it's valid. But that's not an authoritative
answer, just some ticket clerk trying to save time (or perhaps making up
for a deficiency in the ticket machine).

In contrast, I think strictly speaking it's not legit, though
nonetheless it does seem to be common practice / accepted at least on
some routes.

It depends on the services involved.

AFAIR it is OK as long as :-
1-The zonal ticket is valid on the train taking you to the boundary.
2-The extra ticket commences from the last scheduled stop within the
Travelcard zones covered by the ticket, that station not necessarily
being within zone 6 but often somewhere closer to London. (the
"changeover point" possibly being more permissive in some cases than
others?)

If the journey involves leaving from a London terminal on a train not
stopping until it has left Greater London (e.g. Virgin from Euston)
then it is likely the Travelcard is no use for it.

[Andy]

Post by Charles Ellson
If the journey involves leaving from a London terminal on a train not
stopping until it has left Greater London (e.g. Virgin from Euston)
then it is likely the Travelcard is no use for it.

Travelcards plus extension tickets are valid on such services (at least
providing that there is a travelcard fare from the destination).

So Virgin to Milton Keynes, FGW to Reading / Didcot etc., EMT to Luton /
Bedford and East Coast to Stevenage / Peterborough and other similar
destinations should all be available with such a combination.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Andy

Post by Charles Ellson
If the journey involves leaving from a London terminal on a train not
stopping until it has left Greater London (e.g. Virgin from Euston)
then it is likely the Travelcard is no use for it.

Travelcards plus extension tickets are valid on such services (at least
providing that there is a travelcard fare from the destination).
So Virgin to Milton Keynes, FGW to Reading / Didcot etc., EMT to Luton /
Bedford and East Coast to Stevenage / Peterborough and other similar
destinations should all be available with such a combination.

FGW yes, as they serve stations inside the zones, but not the others, for
some obscure accounting reason.

It's a bit asymmetric from outboundary Travelcards.

Neil

[Andy]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Andy

Post by Charles Ellson
If the journey involves leaving from a London terminal on a train not
stopping until it has left Greater London (e.g. Virgin from Euston)
then it is likely the Travelcard is no use for it.

Travelcards plus extension tickets are valid on such services (at least
providing that there is a travelcard fare from the destination).
So Virgin to Milton Keynes, FGW to Reading / Didcot etc., EMT to Luton /
Bedford and East Coast to Stevenage / Peterborough and other similar
destinations should all be available with such a combination.

FGW yes, as they serve stations inside the zones, but not the others, for
some obscure accounting reason.
It's a bit asymmetric from outboundary Travelcards.

Do you have a reference for this? The accountancy would surely be exactly the
same for the section of an outboundary Travelcard outside the zones.

A Travelcard plus boundary zone 6 ticket is using two tickets to cover a single
journey and as both are zonal tickets they are covered under section 19a of the
NRCoC. A boundary zone 6 ticket from Euston make no mention of not being valid
on Virgin Trains, whether bought with a Travelcard season or with a One Day
Travelcard.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Andy

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Andy

Post by Charles Ellson
If the journey involves leaving from a London terminal on a train not
stopping until it has left Greater London (e.g. Virgin from Euston)
then it is likely the Travelcard is no use for it.

Travelcards plus extension tickets are valid on such services (at least
providing that there is a travelcard fare from the destination).
So Virgin to Milton Keynes, FGW to Reading / Didcot etc., EMT to Luton /
Bedford and East Coast to Stevenage / Peterborough and other similar
destinations should all be available with such a combination.

FGW yes, as they serve stations inside the zones, but not the others, for
some obscure accounting reason.
It's a bit asymmetric from outboundary Travelcards.

Do you have a reference for this? The accountancy would surely be exactly the
same for the section of an outboundary Travelcard outside the zones.

In-boundary Travelcards aren't valid for those routes (like EMT, EC)
where they have no stops (other than the terminus) within the zones.

For simplicity, I wouldn't be surprised if an in-boundary Travelcard
plus BZ-extension wasn't valid either. But I'm not sure where to look
for a reference to that.

[Andy]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Andy

Post by Charles Ellson
If the journey involves leaving from a London terminal on a train not
stopping until it has left Greater London (e.g. Virgin from Euston)
then it is likely the Travelcard is no use for it.

Travelcards plus extension tickets are valid on such services (at least
providing that there is a travelcard fare from the destination).
So Virgin to Milton Keynes, FGW to Reading / Didcot etc., EMT to Luton /
Bedford and East Coast to Stevenage / Peterborough and other similar
destinations should all be available with such a combination.

FGW yes, as they serve stations inside the zones, but not the others, for
some obscure accounting reason.
It's a bit asymmetric from outboundary Travelcards.

Do you have a reference for this? The accountancy would surely be exactly the
same for the section of an outboundary Travelcard outside the zones.

In-boundary Travelcards aren't valid for those routes (like EMT, EC)
where they have no stops (other than the terminus) within the zones.

But those are available on the route, however there is no service on which you
can use the operators concerned with just an in-zone travelcard. Why should
taking an EMT train to Bedford, first stop Luton be any different from taking
a fast FCC service, first station call St. Albans, when combining the two tickets?

The same split of operators used to be the case on trains out of Paddington,
but there was never a question of not being able to use a Travelcard plus
boundary zone 6 ticket to get to Reading or Didcot on the InterCity part of
what became the current FGW.

Post by Roland Perry
For simplicity, I wouldn't be surprised if an in-boundary Travelcard
plus BZ-extension wasn't valid either. But I'm not sure where to look
for a reference to that.

The only lack of validity seems to be with one-day Travelcards. I'll usually be
using a Travelcard Season, to which the same objections could be raised. Indeed,
I used one only last month to get from boundary zone 5 to Bedford on EMT without
any question and have recently done the same with Virgin to Milton Keynes,
buying the ticket from the Virgin Ticket office at Euston.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Andy

Post by Charles Ellson
If the journey involves leaving from a London terminal on a train not
stopping until it has left Greater London (e.g. Virgin from Euston)
then it is likely the Travelcard is no use for it.

Travelcards plus extension tickets are valid on such services (at least
providing that there is a travelcard fare from the destination).
So Virgin to Milton Keynes, FGW to Reading / Didcot etc., EMT to Luton /
Bedford and East Coast to Stevenage / Peterborough and other similar
destinations should all be available with such a combination.

FGW yes, as they serve stations inside the zones, but not the others, for
some obscure accounting reason.

IMU for the non-obscure reason that Virgin and others (bus as well as
train companies) are not participants in the Travelcard scheme as they
do not provide any local services in Greater London; the same used to
(and still does for some?) apply to various bus services also.

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy

Post by Neil Williams
It's a bit asymmetric from outboundary Travelcards.

Do you have a reference for this? The accountancy would surely be exactly the
same for the section of an outboundary Travelcard outside the zones.

In-boundary Travelcards aren't valid for those routes (like EMT, EC)
where they have no stops (other than the terminus) within the zones.

But those are available on the route, however there is no service on which you
can use the operators concerned with just an in-zone travelcard. Why should
taking an EMT train to Bedford, first stop Luton be any different from taking
a fast FCC service, first station call St. Albans, when combining the two tickets?
The same split of operators used to be the case on trains out of Paddington,
but there was never a question of not being able to use a Travelcard plus
boundary zone 6 ticket to get to Reading or Didcot on the InterCity part of
what became the current FGW.

Post by Roland Perry
For simplicity, I wouldn't be surprised if an in-boundary Travelcard
plus BZ-extension wasn't valid either. But I'm not sure where to look
for a reference to that.

The only lack of validity seems to be with one-day Travelcards. I'll usually be
using a Travelcard Season, to which the same objections could be raised. Indeed,
I used one only last month to get from boundary zone 5 to Bedford on EMT without
any question and have recently done the same with Virgin to Milton Keynes,
buying the ticket from the Virgin Ticket office at Euston.

[Alex Macfie]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Andy
So Virgin to Milton Keynes, FGW to Reading / Didcot etc., EMT to Luton /
Bedford and East Coast to Stevenage / Peterborough and other similar
destinations should all be available with such a combination.

FGW yes, as they serve stations inside the zones, but not the others, for
some obscure accounting reason.

IMU for the non-obscure reason that Virgin and others (bus as well as
train companies) are not participants in the Travelcard scheme as they
do not provide any local services in Greater London;

I'm not sure that is strictly relevant. Since a Travelcard is a
National Rail ticket, all National Rail operators can be said to
participate in it.

The relevant section of NRCOC is section 19:
# You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
# (a) they are both Zonal Tickets [...]
# (b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from
one ticket to another;
# or
# (c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose
does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive

A Travelcard Season Ticket + BZ ticket is clearly covered by clause
19(c), irrespective of operator, or whether the train does not have to
stop anywhere en route in the London Travelcard area. Apparently,
Virgin Trains used to try to claim that Travelcard Season Tickets on
Oyster were not valid on their services in combination with paper
extension tickets, but have since backed down: see this site by an
anonymous traveller
http://virgintrains.org.uk/

As for One-Day travelcards, I used to think maybe they were covered by
19(a): can a BZ ticket be said to be a "zonal" ticket? If not, then
that combination is probably only valid on a train that stops
somewhere inside the zones covered.

I seem to remember an earlier edition of NRCOC that stipulated that
under certain circumstances a combination of tickets was valid if at
least one train operated by the TOC (but not necessarily the one being
used) stopped at the changeover station. That seems to have
disappeared, and I don't remember the exact circumstances.

Post by Charles Ellson
the same used to
(and still does for some?) apply to various bus services also.

London buses accept travelcards, even running outside Greater London;
non-London buses and coaches do not, even inside Greater London
(although some do offer discounts to Travelcard and/or Oyster card
holders). I remember seeing a foreign couple arguing with a driver of
a non-London bus in far north of London since they didn't understand
why their travelcard was not valid... [to be fair it was painted red
and looked like ex-London Bus stock, but it had no Oyster reader.]
Eventually the driver relented and just let them on. A bit unfair on
those who had paid the proper fare...

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Alex Macfie
I seem to remember an earlier edition of NRCOC that stipulated that
under certain circumstances a combination of tickets was valid if at
least one train operated by the TOC (but not necessarily the one being
used) stopped at the changeover station. That seems to have
disappeared, and I don't remember the exact circumstances.

That was the rule before the current one. I don't know when it was
changed, but I'd guess it was around ten years ago.

[Charles Ellson]

On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 05:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Alex Macfie

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Andy
So Virgin to Milton Keynes, FGW to Reading / Didcot etc., EMT to Luton /
Bedford and East Coast to Stevenage / Peterborough and other similar
destinations should all be available with such a combination.

FGW yes, as they serve stations inside the zones, but not the others, for
some obscure accounting reason.

IMU for the non-obscure reason that Virgin and others (bus as well as
train companies) are not participants in the Travelcard scheme as they
do not provide any local services in Greater London;

I'm not sure that is strictly relevant. Since a Travelcard is a
National Rail ticket, all National Rail operators can be said to
participate in it.
# You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
# (a) they are both Zonal Tickets [...]
# (b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from
one ticket to another;
# or
# (c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose
does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive
A Travelcard Season Ticket + BZ ticket is clearly covered by clause
19(c), irrespective of operator, or whether the train does not have to
stop anywhere en route in the London Travelcard area. Apparently,
Virgin Trains used to try to claim that Travelcard Season Tickets on
Oyster were not valid on their services in combination with paper
extension tickets, but have since backed down: see this site by an
anonymous traveller
http://virgintrains.org.uk/
As for One-Day travelcards, I used to think maybe they were covered by
19(a): can a BZ ticket be said to be a "zonal" ticket? If not, then
that combination is probably only valid on a train that stops
somewhere inside the zones covered.
I seem to remember an earlier edition of NRCOC that stipulated that
under certain circumstances a combination of tickets was valid if at
least one train operated by the TOC (but not necessarily the one being
used) stopped at the changeover station. That seems to have
disappeared, and I don't remember the exact circumstances.

Post by Charles Ellson
the same used to
(and still does for some?) apply to various bus services also.

London buses accept travelcards, even running outside Greater London;

Over to our Essex and South Herts correspondents ?
Routes 84, 402, 477 ?

Post by Alex Macfie
non-London buses and coaches do not, even inside Greater London

Ditto ?

Post by Alex Macfie
(although some do offer discounts to Travelcard and/or Oyster card
holders). I remember seeing a foreign couple arguing with a driver of
a non-London bus in far north of London since they didn't understand
why their travelcard was not valid... [to be fair it was painted red
and looked like ex-London Bus stock, but it had no Oyster reader.]
Eventually the driver relented and just let them on. A bit unfair on
those who had paid the proper fare...

[Alex Macfie]

Post by Charles Ellson
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 05:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Alex Macfie

Post by Alex Macfie
London buses accept travelcards, even running outside Greater London;

Over to our Essex and South Herts correspondents ?
Routes 84, 402, 477 ?

These are not (any more) TfL sponsored routes.

[Charles Ellson]

On Wed, 4 Jul 2012 05:09:39 -0700 (PDT), Alex Macfie

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Charles Ellson
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 05:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Alex Macfie

Post by Alex Macfie
London buses accept travelcards, even running outside Greater London;

Over to our Essex and South Herts correspondents ?
Routes 84, 402, 477 ?

These are not (any more) TfL sponsored routes.

I didn't say they were. They are the subject of London Local Service
Agreements, as mentioned in e.g. :-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/businessandpartners/buses/boroughreports/

[Peter Campbell Smith]

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Charles Ellson
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 05:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Alex Macfie

Post by Alex Macfie
London buses accept travelcards, even running outside Greater London;

Over to our Essex and South Herts correspondents ?
Routes 84, 402, 477 ?

These are not (any more) TfL sponsored routes.

Is there an updated version of this available?
<http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/guide-to-using-tickets-and-oyster-
pay-as-you-go-on-buses-outside-greater-london-april-2009.pdf>

So far as I know, you can still use a travelcard or Oyster PAYG on the 465
route to Dorking, which is quite a distance from the Greater London
boundary.

Peter

[Roland Perry]

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
In-boundary Travelcards aren't valid for those routes (like EMT, EC)
where they have no stops (other than the terminus) within the zones.

But those are available on the route, however there is no service on which you
can use the operators concerned with just an in-zone travelcard. Why should
taking an EMT train to Bedford, first stop Luton be any different from taking
a fast FCC service, first station call St. Albans, when combining the two tickets?

On a micro level, if EMT doesn't participate in the Travelcard scheme,
they will get no revenue for the StP-BZ6 part of the trip, even if (and
it's by no means certain) they would get a percentage of the BZ6-Bedford
revenue.

On a macro level, there's the potential for a revenue loophole, although
the BZ extension to Bedford is sufficiently expensive that it's not
cheaper than a Bedford-all zones period Travelcard.

Post by Andy
The same split of operators used to be the case on trains out of Paddington,
but there was never a question of not being able to use a Travelcard plus
boundary zone 6 ticket to get to Reading or Didcot on the InterCity part of
what became the current FGW.

And before the GW/Thames trains era?

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
For simplicity, I wouldn't be surprised if an in-boundary Travelcard
plus BZ-extension wasn't valid either. But I'm not sure where to look
for a reference to that.

The only lack of validity seems to be with one-day Travelcards. I'll usually be
using a Travelcard Season, to which the same objections could be raised.

As a non-commuter, to me TC = ODTC, and a period travelcard is simply an
"all London" season ticket. It's a pity the rules might be different for
the two.

Post by Andy
Indeed, I used one only last month to get from boundary zone 5 to
Bedford on EMT without any question and have recently done the same
with Virgin to Milton Keynes, buying the ticket from the Virgin Ticket
office at Euston.

I wonder where we can find a reference that shows whether that's
supposed to be OK or not.

[Andy]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
In-boundary Travelcards aren't valid for those routes (like EMT, EC)
where they have no stops (other than the terminus) within the zones.

But those are available on the route, however there is no service on which you
can use the operators concerned with just an in-zone travelcard. Why should
taking an EMT train to Bedford, first stop Luton be any different from taking
a fast FCC service, first station call St. Albans, when combining the two tickets?

On a micro level, if EMT doesn't participate in the Travelcard scheme,
they will get no revenue for the StP-BZ6 part of the trip, even if (and
it's by no means certain) they would get a percentage of the BZ6-Bedford
revenue.

And on a micro level, how much revenue would that been anyway? I would be
surprised if they didn't get any part of the BZ6-Bedford revenue, as the ticket
isn't marked FCC only.

Post by Roland Perry
On a macro level, there's the potential for a revenue loophole, although
the BZ extension to Bedford is sufficiently expensive that it's not
cheaper than a Bedford-all zones period Travelcard.

I don't understand your argument here. What does the price of a BZ6 - Bedford
ticket have to do with the price of a Bedford - all zones period Travelcard?
Comparison with a one-day Bedford - all zones Travelcard would make sense, but
this ticket wouldn't be valid for a return from London - Bedford anyway.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy
The same split of operators used to be the case on trains out of Paddington,
but there was never a question of not being able to use a Travelcard plus
boundary zone 6 ticket to get to Reading or Didcot on the InterCity part of
what became the current FGW.

And before the GW/Thames trains era?

I don't recall any such restrictions in the Inter City / Network South East era
either. The problems only appeared if the ticket wasn't a 'proper' BZ ticket,
but one sold from a boundary station instead.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
For simplicity, I wouldn't be surprised if an in-boundary Travelcard
plus BZ-extension wasn't valid either. But I'm not sure where to look
for a reference to that.

The only lack of validity seems to be with one-day Travelcards. I'll usually be
using a Travelcard Season, to which the same objections could be raised.

As a non-commuter, to me TC = ODTC, and a period travelcard is simply an
"all London" season ticket. It's a pity the rules might be different for
the two.

But all the arguments about revenue share apply equally whether the Travelcard
is one day or period.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy
Indeed, I used one only last month to get from boundary zone 5 to
Bedford on EMT without any question and have recently done the same
with Virgin to Milton Keynes, buying the ticket from the Virgin Ticket
office at Euston.

I wonder where we can find a reference that shows whether that's
supposed to be OK or not.

Indeed.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
On a micro level, if EMT doesn't participate in the Travelcard scheme,
they will get no revenue for the StP-BZ6 part of the trip, even if (and
it's by no means certain) they would get a percentage of the BZ6-Bedford
revenue.

And on a micro level, how much revenue would that been anyway? I would be
surprised if they didn't get any part of the BZ6-Bedford revenue, as the ticket
isn't marked FCC only.

If they aren't supposed to accept ODTC + BZ tickets, they shouldn't be
getting any of the revenue, only that for the BZ tickets added to period
Travelcards. But how to tell the two apart?

I'm beginning to think the rules have changed a couple of years ago to
improve the validity of ODTC (+ BZ extension) on Intercity services, but
still looking for references.

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
On a macro level, there's the potential for a revenue loophole, although
the BZ extension to Bedford is sufficiently expensive that it's not
cheaper than a Bedford-all zones period Travelcard.

I don't understand your argument here. What does the price of a BZ6 - Bedford
ticket have to do with the price of a Bedford - all zones period Travelcard?

Ticket splitting (in this case at BZ6) often reduces the price, so
unless the BZ-BDM ticket is priced high enough, it could be cheaper to
buy a period Travelcard plus the BZ add-on for only those days you
travel.

Post by Andy
Comparison with a one-day Bedford - all zones Travelcard would make sense, but
this ticket wouldn't be valid for a return from London - Bedford anyway.

I don't understand why the return portion isn't valid.

[Andy]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
On a macro level, there's the potential for a revenue loophole, although
the BZ extension to Bedford is sufficiently expensive that it's not
cheaper than a Bedford-all zones period Travelcard.

I don't understand your argument here. What does the price of a BZ6 - Bedford
ticket have to do with the price of a Bedford - all zones period Travelcard?

Ticket splitting (in this case at BZ6) often reduces the price, so
unless the BZ-BDM ticket is priced high enough, it could be cheaper to
buy a period Travelcard plus the BZ add-on for only those days you
travel.

Why on earth is that a revenue loophole? How many journies do you think would
be needed to make the purchase of the period Travelcard worthwhile? Remember
that the tickets are already available.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy
Comparison with a one-day Bedford - all zones Travelcard would make sense, but
this ticket wouldn't be valid for a return from London - Bedford anyway.

I don't understand why the return portion isn't valid.

Because outboundary Travelcard fares are only valid for one return journey from
the origin station into London and then back out. Using the Bedford Travelcard
to travel from London and then back in is using the ticket back to front (hence
the BZ fares for going out of London). You would be using the outbound validity
after the return, so the gateline at Bedford would probably retain the ticket
as would any staff.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
Ticket splitting (in this case at BZ6) often reduces the price, so
unless the BZ-BDM ticket is priced high enough, it could be cheaper to
buy a period Travelcard plus the BZ add-on for only those days you
travel.

Why on earth is that a revenue loophole?

I'm not suggesting that it *is* a problem for the particular St
Pancras-Bedford flow, but a Travelcard (£8.50) plus the off-peak
BZ6-Bedford (£16.90) and BZ6-Brentwood (£4.10), is significantly cheaper
than a CDR from Brentwood to Bedford (£35.20).

[The saving is even greater for travel in the peaks]

In the general case, splitting tickets often involves opportunities for
saving money (and in this case, not just on a point-to-point trip - once
you have the Travelcard you can travel around inside the zones all day
"for free" as well).

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy
Comparison with a one-day Bedford - all zones Travelcard would make sense, but
this ticket wouldn't be valid for a return from London - Bedford anyway.

I don't understand why the return portion isn't valid.

Because outboundary Travelcard fares are only valid for one return journey from
the origin station into London and then back out. Using the Bedford Travelcard
to travel from London and then back in is using the ticket back to front (hence
the BZ fares for going out of London). You would be using the outbound validity
after the return, so the gateline at Bedford would probably retain the ticket
as would any staff.

I would expect the tidal flow on the line to be overwhelmingly people
starting in Bedford and going to London. Your scenario (which I agree is
correct) is therefore only applicable to a small number of travellers.

[Andy]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
Ticket splitting (in this case at BZ6) often reduces the price, so
unless the BZ-BDM ticket is priced high enough, it could be cheaper to
buy a period Travelcard plus the BZ add-on for only those days you
travel.

Why on earth is that a revenue loophole?

I'm not suggesting that it *is* a problem for the particular St
Pancras-Bedford flow, but a Travelcard (£8.50) plus the off-peak
BZ6-Bedford (£16.90) and BZ6-Brentwood (£4.10), is significantly cheaper
than a CDR from Brentwood to Bedford (£35.20).
[The saving is even greater for travel in the peaks]

And is it much cheaper than an outboundary Brentwood Travelcard plus a BZ6 to
Bedford? As I don't think you can buy a ticket from an station outside the zones
to BZ6, at least you certainly didn't used to be able to. Coming into the zones,
you would be sold a ticket to the first station over the border.

Post by Roland Perry
In the general case, splitting tickets often involves opportunities for
saving money (and in this case, not just on a point-to-point trip - once
you have the Travelcard you can travel around inside the zones all day
"for free" as well).

[Roland Perry]

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
I'm not suggesting that it *is* a problem for the particular St
Pancras-Bedford flow, but a Travelcard (£8.50) plus the off-peak
BZ6-Bedford (£16.90) and BZ6-Brentwood (£4.10), is significantly cheaper
than a CDR from Brentwood to Bedford (£35.20).
[The saving is even greater for travel in the peaks]

And is it much cheaper than an outboundary Brentwood Travelcard plus a BZ6 to
Bedford?

The Outboundary TC from Brentwood is £15.30, so the total to Bedford
would be £32.20

Post by Andy
As I don't think you can buy a ticket from an station outside the zones
to BZ6, at least you certainly didn't used to be able to. Coming into the zones,
you would be sold a ticket to the first station over the border.

The ticket is listed on the Avantix CD, but I agree that conventional
wisdom is that they are only available originating at the BZ.

Brentwood to Harold Wood CDR is £4.10 also (and all the trains to
Brentwood stop at Harold Wood, iirc).

[Alex Macfie]

Post by Andy
And is it much cheaper than an outboundary Brentwood Travelcard plus a BZ6 to
Bedford?

I've found examples where it is cheaper to buy a CDR ticket from
<station outside London> to BZ6 plus an all-zone travelcard than to
buy the corresponding outboundary travelcard. Brentwood is one such
case; Oxford is another. I don't know how widespread this is.

Post by Andy
As I don't think you can buy a ticket from an station outside the zones
to BZ6, at least you certainly didn't used to be able to.

You certainly can, as the BR Fares site lists these. And I remember a
few years ago buying a ticket to BZ3.

Post by Andy
Coming into the zones,
you would be sold a ticket to the first station over the border.

You might if there is no BZ6 fare (depending on the distance from
London of the origin station?) And the same for the reverse journey.

[Andy]

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Andy
And is it much cheaper than an outboundary Brentwood Travelcard plus a BZ6 to
Bedford?

I've found examples where it is cheaper to buy a CDR ticket from
<station outside London> to BZ6 plus an all-zone travelcard than to
buy the corresponding outboundary travelcard. Brentwood is one such
case; Oxford is another. I don't know how widespread this is.

That's interesting. Are the BZ6 fares the same as those to the equivalent zone 6
station?

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Andy
As I don't think you can buy a ticket from an station outside the zones
to BZ6, at least you certainly didn't used to be able to.

You certainly can, as the BR Fares site lists these. And I remember a
few years ago buying a ticket to BZ3.

Which website? I've never found them available on the 'normal' sites and
listing the fare doesn't necessarily mean that it is available to buy. Such
tickets never used to be available and I have certainly been refused one more
recently than a BZ to wherever ticket on an ex-Inter City service.

Having a BZ6 fare available into London is certainly a relaxation of the old
rules.

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Andy
Coming into the zones,
you would be sold a ticket to the first station over the border.

You might if there is no BZ6 fare (depending on the distance from
London of the origin station?) And the same for the reverse journey.

And maybe depending if there is a station in zone 6 to provide the BZ6 fare?

[Alex Macfie]

Post by Andy

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Andy
And is it much cheaper than an outboundary Brentwood Travelcard plus a BZ6 to
Bedford?

I've found examples where it is cheaper to buy a CDR ticket from
<station outside London> to BZ6 plus an all-zone travelcard than to
buy the corresponding outboundary travelcard. Brentwood is one such
case; Oxford is another. I don't know how widespread this is.

That's interesting. Are the BZ6 fares the same as those to the equivalent zone 6
station?

For Oxford, yes (to West Drayton). I don't know about Brentwood, as
I've never been there so I don't know what the outermost Zone 6
station(s) would be... [I used to live in Oxford and travelled
frequently by train from there to London, so know that line well...]

Post by Andy

Post by Alex Macfie
You certainly can, as the BR Fares site lists these. And I remember a
few years ago buying a ticket to BZ3.

Which website?

It was mentioned earlier in this thread: http://www.brfares.com/ (so
the anachronistic use of "BR" is from the site itself). And no it
doesn't sell tickets.

Post by Andy
I've never found them available on the 'normal' sites

Me neither, nor on self-service ticket machines. But they should
certainly be available from ticket offices.

Post by Andy

Post by Alex Macfie
You might if there is no BZ6 fare (depending on the distance from
London of the origin station?) And the same for the reverse journey.

And maybe depending if there is a station in zone 6 to provide the BZ6 fare?

Probably.

Alex

[Roland Perry]

In message

I don't know about Brentwood, as I've never been there so I don't know
what the outermost Zone 6 station(s) would be...

If only someone would publish a map of the rail system, then we would
know which stations were in which zones without having to visit them ;)

As it happens I spent many happy years working in an office block
overlooking Brentwood station, and I know that the Harold Wood (the next
station west) is the outermost Z6 station.

It's also possible to deduce this from earlier posting in the thread.

[Neil Williams]

I wonder where we can find a reference that shows whether that's supposed to be OK or not.

The fare manuals?

Neil

[Alex Macfie]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy

Post by Roland Perry
In-boundary Travelcards aren't valid for those routes (like EMT, EC)
where they have no stops (other than the terminus) within the zones.

But those are available on the route, however there is no service on which you
can use the operators concerned with just an in-zone travelcard. Why should
taking an EMT train to Bedford, first stop Luton be any different from taking
a fast FCC service, first station call St. Albans, when combining the two tickets?

On a micro level, if EMT doesn't participate in the Travelcard scheme,
they will get no revenue for the StP-BZ6 part of the trip, even if (and
it's by no means certain) they would get a percentage of the BZ6-Bedford
revenue.

But whether a ticket is valid does not directly depend on whether the
TOC gets any revenue from it (do TOCs on obscure but valid routes get
revenue for these? Probably not). It is quite possible that Virgin
Trains gets nothing from a Zone 1-5 Travelcard Season, but this is
still valid on Virgin trains to Milton Keynes in combination with a
BZ5-MK ticket.

Post by Roland Perry
On a macro level, there's the potential for a revenue loophole, although
the BZ extension to Bedford is sufficiently expensive that it's not
cheaper than a Bedford-all zones period Travelcard.

A revenue loopholes don't make the combination invalid, or there would
be no split-ticketing. There is not yet any crackdown on "aggressive
fare avoidance" ;)

Post by Roland Perry
As a non-commuter, to me TC = ODTC, and a period travelcard is simply an
"all London" season ticket. It's a pity the rules might be different for
the two.

They might be different because the latter is a Season Ticket, for
which various different rules apply.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy
Indeed, I used one only last month to get from boundary zone 5 to
Bedford on EMT without any question and have recently done the same
with Virgin to Milton Keynes, buying the ticket from the Virgin Ticket
office at Euston.

I wonder where we can find a reference that shows whether that's
supposed to be OK or not.

19(c) of the NRCoC. Obviously, Boundary Zone 5 is a "virtual station",
so no train actually stops there, but under this condition they do not
have to, because the Travelcard Season Ticket is, well, a Season
Ticket, and the extension is not. Meanwhile, a strict reading of NRCoC
suggests that OTD + extension can never be valid (since no train ever
stops where you change tickets)!

Alex

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Alex Macfie
whether a ticket is valid does not directly depend on whether the
TOC gets any revenue from it

Indeed, but it's a reason for some routes/tickets to be declared
invalid.

Post by Alex Macfie
revenue loopholes don't make the combination invalid, or there would
be no split-ticketing. There is not yet any crackdown on "aggressive
fare avoidance" ;)

It's increasingly talked about.

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Roland Perry
As a non-commuter, to me TC = ODTC, and a period travelcard is simply an
"all London" season ticket. It's a pity the rules might be different for
the two.

They might be different because the latter is a Season Ticket, for
which various different rules apply.

If they have differences (which I don't deny) then that makes it more
important for people not to make statements about "travelcards" without
saying which sort they mean.

Post by Alex Macfie

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Andy
Indeed, I used one only last month to get from boundary zone 5 to
Bedford on EMT without any question and have recently done the same
with Virgin to Milton Keynes, buying the ticket from the Virgin Ticket
office at Euston.

I wonder where we can find a reference that shows whether that's
supposed to be OK or not.

19(c) of the NRCoC. Obviously, Boundary Zone 5 is a "virtual station",
so no train actually stops there, but under this condition they do not
have to, because the Travelcard Season Ticket is, well, a Season
Ticket, and the extension is not. Meanwhile, a strict reading of NRCoC
suggests that OTD + extension can never be valid (since no train ever
stops where you change tickets)!

For clarity, are you suggesting

(a) that ODTC + extension is *not* intended to be valid, and therefore
should not be accepted

or

(b) the combination *is* intended to be valid and the rules are written
badly.

ps I wish they'd add a footnote clarifying what constitutes "PTE
tickets", and thus whether TfL is a PTE or not for the purposes of this
rule.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Roland Perry
ps I wish they'd add a footnote clarifying what constitutes "PTE
tickets", and thus whether TfL is a PTE or not for the purposes of this rule.

It specifically is not, but I forget where I read that.

Neil

[Neil Williams]

In contrast, I think strictly speaking it's not legit, though nonetheless
it does seem to be common practice / accepted at least on some routes.

AIUI it is legit if the Travelcard is a season (these don't count as PTE
passes) or the train stops there.

Neil

[Mizter T]

Post by Neil Williams

In contrast, I think strictly speaking it's not legit, though nonetheless
it does seem to be common practice / accepted at least on some routes.

AIUI it is legit if the Travelcard is a season (these don't count as PTE
passes) or the train stops there.

Yeah, sorry I was thinking about Day Travelcards, should have said so.

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