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BBC News: Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
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JMB99
2024-12-14 20:26:00 UTC
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BBC News


"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash

A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.

The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Scott
2024-12-14 20:51:06 UTC
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Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Graeme Wall
2024-12-14 20:56:45 UTC
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Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
JNugent
2024-12-14 21:26:55 UTC
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Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
Exactly.

How on Earth do these things happen?
Clank
2024-12-16 10:28:33 UTC
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Post by JNugent
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
Exactly.
How on Earth do these things happen?
Almost exactly two years ago a Greek tourist coach managed to plough into
the girders that protect the Piata Unirii underpass in Bucharest, to fatal
effect:

<https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/accident-grav-in-pasajul-unirii-un-
autocar-cu-47-de-cetateni-greci-a-intrat-in-limitatorul-de-inaltime-4-
persoane-sunt-incarcerate-4390435>


In that particular case, the subsequent investigation revealed that the bus
should have had two drivers, but one had taken sick - so the driver
concerned had been going for 16 hours straight. He also successfully
avoided the dangling-chains and electronic stop lights that are in advance
of the rigid barriers by driving around them and then switching lanes
illegally (i.e. across solid lines/hatched road markings.)

Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.


On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
JMB99
2024-12-16 12:44:39 UTC
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Post by Clank
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
You tend to find the older bridges tend to withstand better being hit -
built before someone calculated the minimum amount of metal or concrete
that they need to use.
Clank
2024-12-16 12:58:03 UTC
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Post by JMB99
Post by Clank
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders
at protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance
of any bridge that is likely to get hit.)
You tend to find the older bridges tend to withstand better being hit -
built before someone calculated the minimum amount of metal or concrete
that they need to use.
Well, the Unirii underpass is 40 years old, and while Ceaușescu has been
accused of many things, "not using enough concrete" is definitely not one
of them.

I feel like protective barriers remain a sensible precaution, even at risk
of offending the sensibilities of the Real Men who Made Things Properly
being lumped in with your namby-pamby modern woke bridges made with
snowflakes.
Roland Perry
2024-12-16 14:11:04 UTC
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Post by JMB99
Post by Clank
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
You tend to find the older bridges tend to withstand better being hit -
built before someone calculated the minimum amount of metal or concrete
that they need to use.
Not always, the one at Ely, and also at Queen Adelaide, are fairly
modern constructions being a steel and concrete raft about a metre thick
which I estimate weighs about 200 tons.
--
Roland Perry
JNugent
2024-12-16 15:00:34 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by JNugent
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
Exactly.
How on Earth do these things happen?
Almost exactly two years ago a Greek tourist coach managed to plough into
the girders that protect the Piata Unirii underpass in Bucharest, to fatal
<https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/accident-grav-in-pasajul-unirii-un-
autocar-cu-47-de-cetateni-greci-a-intrat-in-limitatorul-de-inaltime-4-
persoane-sunt-incarcerate-4390435>
In that particular case, the subsequent investigation revealed that the bus
should have had two drivers, but one had taken sick - so the driver
concerned had been going for 16 hours straight. He also successfully
avoided the dangling-chains and electronic stop lights that are in advance
of the rigid barriers by driving around them and then switching lanes
illegally (i.e. across solid lines/hatched road markings.)
Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
Other nations are a different matter.

What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
Scott
2024-12-16 15:46:21 UTC
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Post by JNugent
Post by Clank
Post by JNugent
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
Exactly.
How on Earth do these things happen?
Almost exactly two years ago a Greek tourist coach managed to plough into
the girders that protect the Piata Unirii underpass in Bucharest, to fatal
<https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/accident-grav-in-pasajul-unirii-un-
autocar-cu-47-de-cetateni-greci-a-intrat-in-limitatorul-de-inaltime-4-
persoane-sunt-incarcerate-4390435>
In that particular case, the subsequent investigation revealed that the bus
should have had two drivers, but one had taken sick - so the driver
concerned had been going for 16 hours straight. He also successfully
avoided the dangling-chains and electronic stop lights that are in advance
of the rigid barriers by driving around them and then switching lanes
illegally (i.e. across solid lines/hatched road markings.)
Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
Other nations are a different matter.
What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
Could it be one of the passengers to blame? I have heard that
sometimes if the driver does not know the route he will get the
passengers to navigate.
JNugent
2024-12-16 17:32:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[ ...
Post by Scott
Post by JNugent
Post by Clank
Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
Other nations are a different matter.
What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
Could it be one of the passengers to blame? I have heard that
sometimes if the driver does not know the route he will get the
passengers to navigate.
He should still be able to see, read and understand warning signs!
Scott
2024-12-17 18:05:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
[ ...
Post by Scott
Post by JNugent
Post by Clank
Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
Other nations are a different matter.
What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
Could it be one of the passengers to blame? I have heard that
sometimes if the driver does not know the route he will get the
passengers to navigate.
He should still be able to see, read and understand warning signs!
The comment was made tongue-in-cheek.
Recliner
2024-12-16 15:58:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Clank
Post by JNugent
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
Exactly.
How on Earth do these things happen?
Almost exactly two years ago a Greek tourist coach managed to plough into
the girders that protect the Piata Unirii underpass in Bucharest, to fatal
<https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/accident-grav-in-pasajul-unirii-un-
autocar-cu-47-de-cetateni-greci-a-intrat-in-limitatorul-de-inaltime-4-
persoane-sunt-incarcerate-4390435>
In that particular case, the subsequent investigation revealed that the bus
should have had two drivers, but one had taken sick - so the driver
concerned had been going for 16 hours straight. He also successfully
avoided the dangling-chains and electronic stop lights that are in advance
of the rigid barriers by driving around them and then switching lanes
illegally (i.e. across solid lines/hatched road markings.)
Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
Other nations are a different matter.
What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
It happens regularly, for three reasons:

- A bus is on diversions, the harried driver gets lost, and takes a wrong
turning under a low bridge

- The driver is operating a rail-replacement service, on a
not-very-well-marked route, and is new to the area.

- A driver normally drives a single decker, but on this occasion, is
driving a double-decker, but forgets.
JNugent
2024-12-16 17:33:52 UTC
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[ ... ]
Post by Recliner
Post by JNugent
What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
- A bus is on diversions, the harried driver gets lost, and takes a wrong
turning under a low bridge
- The driver is operating a rail-replacement service, on a
not-very-well-marked route, and is new to the area.
- A driver normally drives a single decker, but on this occasion, is
driving a double-decker, but forgets.
Yes, I can see the force of that.
Charles Ellson
2024-12-17 03:15:11 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by JNugent
Post by Clank
Post by JNugent
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
Exactly.
How on Earth do these things happen?
Almost exactly two years ago a Greek tourist coach managed to plough into
the girders that protect the Piata Unirii underpass in Bucharest, to fatal
<https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/accident-grav-in-pasajul-unirii-un-
autocar-cu-47-de-cetateni-greci-a-intrat-in-limitatorul-de-inaltime-4-
persoane-sunt-incarcerate-4390435>
In that particular case, the subsequent investigation revealed that the bus
should have had two drivers, but one had taken sick - so the driver
concerned had been going for 16 hours straight. He also successfully
avoided the dangling-chains and electronic stop lights that are in advance
of the rigid barriers by driving around them and then switching lanes
illegally (i.e. across solid lines/hatched road markings.)
Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
Other nations are a different matter.
What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
- A bus is on diversions, the harried driver gets lost, and takes a wrong
turning under a low bridge
- The driver is operating a rail-replacement service, on a
not-very-well-marked route, and is new to the area.
- A driver normally drives a single decker, but on this occasion, is
driving a double-decker, but forgets.
No.4 It is a bus being transferred or delivered and driven by someone
other than a driver with specific route knowledge (Headstone Drive
bridge north of Harrow and Wealdstone at least twice).
Ulf_Kutzner
2024-12-18 13:00:32 UTC
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Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Recliner
Post by JNugent
Post by Clank
Post by JNugent
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
Exactly.
How on Earth do these things happen?
Almost exactly two years ago a Greek tourist coach managed to plough into
the girders that protect the Piata Unirii underpass in Bucharest, to fatal
<https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/accident-grav-in-pasajul-unirii-un-
autocar-cu-47-de-cetateni-greci-a-intrat-in-limitatorul-de-inaltime-4-
persoane-sunt-incarcerate-4390435>
In that particular case, the subsequent investigation revealed that the bus
should have had two drivers, but one had taken sick - so the driver
concerned had been going for 16 hours straight. He also successfully
avoided the dangling-chains and electronic stop lights that are in advance
of the rigid barriers by driving around them and then switching lanes
illegally (i.e. across solid lines/hatched road markings.)
Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
Other nations are a different matter.
What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
- A bus is on diversions, the harried driver gets lost, and takes a wrong
turning under a low bridge
- The driver is operating a rail-replacement service, on a
not-very-well-marked route, and is new to the area.
- A driver normally drives a single decker, but on this occasion, is
driving a double-decker, but forgets.
No.4 It is a bus being transferred or delivered and driven by someone
other than a driver with specific route knowledge (Headstone Drive
bridge north of Harrow and Wealdstone at least twice).
I see. My case with route knowledge but
a soehow different bus should be 4a.

Regards, ULF

Ulf_Kutzner
2024-12-18 11:59:38 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by JNugent
Post by Clank
Post by JNugent
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There are enough ruddy signs! Also double-deck buses have the height
marked inside the cab as a reminder.
Exactly.
How on Earth do these things happen?
Almost exactly two years ago a Greek tourist coach managed to plough into
the girders that protect the Piata Unirii underpass in Bucharest, to fatal
<https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/accident-grav-in-pasajul-unirii-un-
autocar-cu-47-de-cetateni-greci-a-intrat-in-limitatorul-de-inaltime-4-
persoane-sunt-incarcerate-4390435>
In that particular case, the subsequent investigation revealed that the bus
should have had two drivers, but one had taken sick - so the driver
concerned had been going for 16 hours straight. He also successfully
avoided the dangling-chains and electronic stop lights that are in advance
of the rigid barriers by driving around them and then switching lanes
illegally (i.e. across solid lines/hatched road markings.)
Some people just really want to kill themselves, it seems.
On the bright side, he did prove the effectiveness of the solid girders at
protecting tunnels/bridges. (They're fairly common here in advance of any
bridge that is likely to get hit.)
Other nations are a different matter.
What puzzles many is how a UK local bus driver can take his double
decker off-route and try to get it under a bridge with 8'clearance.
- A bus is on diversions, the harried driver gets lost, and takes a wrong
turning under a low bridge
- The driver is operating a rail-replacement service, on a
not-very-well-marked route, and is new to the area.
- A driver normally drives a single decker, but on this occasion, is
driving a double-decker, but forgets.
Sometimes single-deck buses not in service are enough:
Loading Image...

See
https://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/schleswig-holstein_magazin/E-Bus-Brand-an-Bahnbruecke-in-Elmshorn-sorgt-fuer-Zugausfaelle,shmag120238.html

Regards, ULF
JNugent
2024-12-14 21:26:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Why can't "they" tell the bus driver which route to take?
Scott
2024-12-14 21:34:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Why can't "they" tell the bus driver which route to take?
The problem is not limited to buses.
JNugent
2024-12-15 02:26:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by JNugent
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Why can't "they" tell the bus driver which route to take?
The problem is not limited to buses.
True enough, I suppose.

But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
JMB99
2024-12-15 07:00:04 UTC
Reply
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Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route? Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.

Often there is a big event and extra buses have been brought in to serve it.
Marland
2024-12-15 08:22:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route? Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Often there is a big event and extra buses have been brought in to serve it.
Or sometimes rail replacement when bus drivers from out of their normal
area are sent to drive unfamiliar routes , do management go out first and
put signs up or just issue some notes?

Years ago long before satnav and cell phones a rail replacement bus driver
took us to Brockenhurst Golf Club instead of the station which caused some
consternation from the strange trouser wearing and waving a bent stick
brigade .

GH
Ulf_Kutzner
2024-12-15 08:33:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by JMB99
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route? Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Often there is a big event and extra buses have been brought in to serve it.
Or sometimes rail replacement when bus drivers from out of their normal
area are sent to drive unfamiliar routes , do management go out first and
put signs up or just issue some notes?
Years ago long before satnav and cell phones a rail replacement bus driver
took us to Brockenhurst Golf Club instead of the station which caused some
consternation from the strange trouser wearing and waving a bent stick
brigade .
WARNING, not in the UK:

We do have, on single deck buses, pilots/navigators
next to new drivers here.

Regards, ULF
JMB99
2024-12-15 08:50:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Or sometimes rail replacement when bus drivers from out of their normal
area are sent to drive unfamiliar routes , do management go out first and
put signs up or just issue some notes?
I was told many years ago that BBC Outside Broadcasts (or Transport
Department) used to keep files on locations they had been to and I think
would often do a survey beforehand if problems were foreseen though
possibly part of the technical survey that was done.

It seemed to stop when they were sold off so when Question Time came up
here, they found their very large Colour Mobile Control Room vehicle
would not fit under the bridge in Crianlarich so they had to turn
around, go back and up via the A9.
Graeme Wall
2024-12-15 09:20:12 UTC
Reply
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Post by JMB99
Post by Marland
Or sometimes rail replacement when bus drivers from out of their normal
area are sent  to drive unfamiliar routes ,  do management go out
first and
put signs up   or just issue some notes?
I was told many years ago that BBC Outside Broadcasts (or Transport
Department) used to keep files on locations they had been to and I think
would often do a survey beforehand if problems were foreseen though
possibly part of the technical survey that was done.
That would have been normal.
Post by JMB99
It seemed to stop when they were sold off so when Question Time came up
here, they found their very large Colour Mobile Control Room vehicle
would not fit under the bridge in Crianlarich so they had to turn
around, go back and up via the A9.
That's why private companies were cheaper, because they skimped on the
detail.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
JMB99
2024-12-15 10:33:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
That's why private companies were cheaper, because they skimped on the
detail.
But it does not add much to the cost and in this case they had planned
to reach their destination probably during the day but did not arrive
until the middle of the night, fortunate that I think they are exempt
from driving hours rules.

You only need something else to go wrong.

Whenever I have had contact with OBs, they have always been belt and
braces (and bit of string in case the belt breaks!).
Graeme Wall
2024-12-15 15:05:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Graeme Wall
That's why private companies were cheaper, because they skimped on the
detail.
But it does not add much to the cost and in this case they had planned
to reach their destination probably during the day but did not arrive
until the middle of the night, fortunate that I think they are exempt
from driving hours rules.
You only need something else to go wrong.
Whenever I have had contact with OBs, they have always been belt and
braces (and bit of string in case the belt breaks!).
Falling off the air in the middle of the cup final is definitely
discouraged!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
JMB99
2024-12-15 10:35:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Safety standards on other vehicles have increased dramatically over the
years but have safety standards on buses changed much? There never
seems much strength in the structure.
Ulf_Kutzner
2024-12-15 11:21:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Safety standards on other vehicles have increased dramatically over the
years but have safety standards on buses changed much? There never
seems much strength in the structure.
Try to pass under
Loading Image...
,
your heirs won't find much strength in your car's structure.
JMB99
2024-12-15 12:28:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
your heirs won't find much strength in your car's structure.
If you watch any TV series about the emergency services responding to
Road Traffic Accidents and you will see crashed vehicles where you would
never expect anyone to survive but the occupants walk away, often with
hardly a scratch.

I doubt you will see equivalent with bus crashes.
Certes
2024-12-15 12:31:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
your heirs won't find much strength in your car's structure.
If you watch any TV series about the emergency services responding to
Road Traffic Accidents and you will see crashed vehicles where you would
never expect anyone to survive but the occupants walk away, often with
hardly a scratch.
I doubt you will see equivalent with bus crashes.
You probably will if the bus hits something at ground level, like the
vehicle in front, especially as they don't tend to travel very fast.
It's the top deck that's flimsy, partly for weight reasons.
Ulf_Kutzner
2024-12-15 12:52:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
your heirs won't find much strength in your car's structure.
If you watch any TV series about the emergency services responding to
Road Traffic Accidents and you will see crashed vehicles where you would
never expect anyone to survive but the occupants walk away, often with
hardly a scratch.
Cars are optimised for crashing into cars,
or concrete walls, as well as rolling.

After some car accidents, one might ask whether
there was surviving room left.

Loading Image...
may help to prevent the upper half of your car
being cut.

Loading Image...
Post by JMB99
I doubt you will see equivalent with bus crashes.
I don't think buses are optimised for rolling.
Roland Perry
2024-12-15 13:18:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
your heirs won't find much strength in your car's structure.
If you watch any TV series about the emergency services responding to
Road Traffic Accidents and you will see crashed vehicles where you
would never expect anyone to survive but the occupants walk away, often
with hardly a scratch.
That's probably because the car's crumple zones have worked as designed.
Not to mention airbags.
Post by JMB99
I doubt you will see equivalent with bus crashes.
Top deck impacts perhaps. But there have been a few coaches that went
off the road the last month or so, with very few injuries reported.
--
Roland Perry
Ken
2024-12-16 09:14:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
your heirs won't find much strength in your car's structure.
If you watch any TV series about the emergency services responding to
Road Traffic Accidents and you will see crashed vehicles where you would
never expect anyone to survive but the occupants walk away, often with
hardly a scratch.
I doubt you will see equivalent with bus crashes.
I suspect modern vehicles are much better than older buses, but the
much greater mass of a bus means that in a collision with another
vehicle, or anything with a bit if give, the forces on the occupants
will be lower than in a smaller vehicle.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2024-12-16 09:20:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 09:14:29 +0000
Post by Ken
Post by JMB99
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
your heirs won't find much strength in your car's structure.
If you watch any TV series about the emergency services responding to
Road Traffic Accidents and you will see crashed vehicles where you would
never expect anyone to survive but the occupants walk away, often with
hardly a scratch.
I doubt you will see equivalent with bus crashes.
I suspect modern vehicles are much better than older buses, but the
much greater mass of a bus means that in a collision with another
vehicle, or anything with a bit if give, the forces on the occupants
will be lower than in a smaller vehicle.
The problem with buses and euro trucks (unlike the bonneted north american
ones) is that there's no room for a crumple zone as the driver is literally 2
foot from the front of the vehicle so with a bus you either make it strong
enough to withstand forward crushing and hence put up with high G force
decelleration if it hit something hard, or you sacrifice the driver to save the
passengers. No idea which approach bus manufacturers take if any but truck
manufacturers try to make the cab as strong as possible and I guess hope the
drivers neck isn't broken in a sudden stop.
Scott
2024-12-15 13:17:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by JMB99
Safety standards on other vehicles have increased dramatically over the
years but have safety standards on buses changed much? There never
seems much strength in the structure.
Try to pass under
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision#/media/File:Truck_crash_Africa_Mozambique1.jpg
Broken link on Agent.
Ulf_Kutzner
2024-12-15 13:23:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by JMB99
Safety standards on other vehicles have increased dramatically over the
years but have safety standards on buses changed much? There never
seems much strength in the structure.
Try to pass under
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision#/media/File:Truck_crash_Africa_Mozambique1.jpg
Broken link on Agent.
Hm.

Please try
Loading Image...

Regards, ULF
Recliner
2024-12-15 11:36:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Safety standards on other vehicles have increased dramatically over the
years but have safety standards on buses changed much? There never
seems much strength in the structure.
The bodywork is a light, flimsy structure, just strong enough to resist
tree branches. Making it strong enough to slice through a railway bridge
would make the bus very top-heavy, and unstable, as well as far too heavy
for the roads.
Scott
2024-12-15 13:18:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by JMB99
Safety standards on other vehicles have increased dramatically over the
years but have safety standards on buses changed much? There never
seems much strength in the structure.
The bodywork is a light, flimsy structure, just strong enough to resist
tree branches. Making it strong enough to slice through a railway bridge
would make the bus very top-heavy, and unstable, as well as far too heavy
for the roads.
And wreck a lot of bridges.
JNugent
2024-12-15 16:30:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Safety standards on other vehicles have increased dramatically over the
years but have safety standards on buses changed much?  There never
seems much strength in the structure.
I wonder how many other tall vehicles would fare much better when
hitting a bridge?

Furniture vans?
JNugent
2024-12-15 16:28:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route?  Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Alternative routes which are unsuitable for buses?

Don't "low" bridges have signs to state the maximum height of a vehicle
passing underneath?
Often there is a big event and extra buses have been brought in to serve it.
That doesn't militate against the point.
Charles Ellson
2024-12-17 03:22:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route?  Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Alternative routes which are unsuitable for buses?
Don't "low" bridges have signs to state the maximum height of a vehicle
passing underneath?
It isn't something that has to be considered when driving a bus on an
established route thus can more easily be forgotten/ignored when
diverted or wandering off a preset diversion.
Post by JNugent
Often there is a big event and extra buses have been brought in to serve it.
That doesn't militate against the point.
JNugent
2024-12-17 16:17:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route?  Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Alternative routes which are unsuitable for buses?
Don't "low" bridges have signs to state the maximum height of a vehicle
passing underneath?
It isn't something that has to be considered when driving a bus on an
established route thus can more easily be forgotten/ignored when
diverted or wandering off a preset diversion.
No, it isn't.

The sign is there for the information of everybody and anybody using the
route.

I prefer to believe that you would not use that line of argument with
respect to speed limit signs.

But if it were valid for one sign, it would be valid for both (and others).
Charles Ellson
2024-12-18 04:29:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route?  Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Alternative routes which are unsuitable for buses?
Don't "low" bridges have signs to state the maximum height of a vehicle
passing underneath?
It isn't something that has to be considered when driving a bus on an
established route thus can more easily be forgotten/ignored when
diverted or wandering off a preset diversion.
No, it isn't.
The sign is there for the information of everybody and anybody using the
route.
I prefer to believe that you would not use that line of argument with
respect to speed limit signs.
It is standard practice to post warnings when speed limits change. The
signs are still up after several years at one location near me.
Post by JNugent
But if it were valid for one sign, it would be valid for both (and others).
That ignores the hazards inherent in repetitive work processes.
Roland Perry
2024-12-18 11:25:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by JNugent
The sign is there for the information of everybody and anybody using the
route.
I prefer to believe that you would not use that line of argument with
respect to speed limit signs.
It is standard practice to post warnings when speed limits change. The
signs are still up after several years at one location near me.
That's not true. One of the most pernicious bear-traps is when a section
of previously 40mph outer-urban road (between two stretches of
inner-suburban) is reduced to 30mph by the *silent* removal of the two
pairs of 40mph signs.
--
Roland Perry
Scott
2024-12-17 17:29:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 03:22:19 +0000, Charles Ellson
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route?  Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Alternative routes which are unsuitable for buses?
Don't "low" bridges have signs to state the maximum height of a vehicle
passing underneath?
It isn't something that has to be considered when driving a bus on an
established route thus can more easily be forgotten/ignored when
diverted or wandering off a preset diversion.
Try that argument in a ULEZ or LEZ. I thought I was driving my other
car at the time, M'Lud.
Charles Ellson
2024-12-18 04:21:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 17:29:39 +0000, Scott
Post by Scott
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 03:22:19 +0000, Charles Ellson
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route?  Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Alternative routes which are unsuitable for buses?
Don't "low" bridges have signs to state the maximum height of a vehicle
passing underneath?
It isn't something that has to be considered when driving a bus on an
established route thus can more easily be forgotten/ignored when
diverted or wandering off a preset diversion.
Try that argument in a ULEZ or LEZ. I thought I was driving my other
car at the time, M'Lud.
ITYM "I was following the satnav when the M25 was closed".
Scott
2024-12-18 09:46:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 04:21:25 +0000, Charles Ellson
Post by Charles Ellson
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 17:29:39 +0000, Scott
Post by Scott
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 03:22:19 +0000, Charles Ellson
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
But requiring bus drivers to take the correct route would surely at
least get rid of the problem with buses?
Isn't it often they have been diverted to an alternative route?  Buses
have the big advantage over trains that they are not limited to one route.
Alternative routes which are unsuitable for buses?
Don't "low" bridges have signs to state the maximum height of a vehicle
passing underneath?
It isn't something that has to be considered when driving a bus on an
established route thus can more easily be forgotten/ignored when
diverted or wandering off a preset diversion.
Try that argument in a ULEZ or LEZ. I thought I was driving my other
car at the time, M'Lud.
ITYM "I was following the satnav when the M25 was closed".
... in my HGV using a motor cycle satnav that I borrowed from a mate.
Roland Perry
2024-12-15 11:25:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Why can't "they" tell the bus driver which route to take?
Spike Turner, a passenger who was third from the front of the
bus, said the driver had taken a wrong turn and crashed
"straight into the bridge".

So yet another off-route incident (buses hitting bridges almost always
are).
--
Roland Perry
JNugent
2024-12-15 16:26:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by JNugent
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Why can't "they" tell the bus driver which route to take?
Spike Turner, a passenger who was third from the front of the
bus, said the driver had taken a wrong turn and crashed
"straight into the bridge".
So yet another off-route incident (buses hitting bridges almost always
are).
I think we'd all guessed that.

It wasn't the bridge's fault.
brian
2024-12-15 17:32:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There used to be some sort of optical sensor that triggered a warning,
just before the low bridge at Slateford station in Edinburgh. It seems
to have gone now.

Brian
--
Brian Howie
Scott
2024-12-15 18:11:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by brian
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There used to be some sort of optical sensor that triggered a warning,
just before the low bridge at Slateford station in Edinburgh. It seems
to have gone now.
Was this warning at the roadside or in the driver's cab?
Marland
2024-12-15 19:28:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by brian
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There used to be some sort of optical sensor that triggered a warning,
just before the low bridge at Slateford station in Edinburgh. It seems
to have gone now.
Was this warning at the roadside or in the driver's cab?
I believe the first such roadside ones were here in Hampshire either at
this bridge
which in the days before the M27 was built was the main route Eastwards
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/fuZLeY5XC2suSCYj9>
In one incident in the early hours fireman responding to reports of a fire
at the location found embarrassed employees of Southamptons bus operation
who taking a bus for a test run knocked the top deck off , amazingly they
were trying to cut up the remains and get the now not so high bus and its
debri back to the depot in Portswood without being noticed.

< https://maps.app.goo.gl/fuZLeY5XC2suSCYj9>

The other one shortly after was here in Romsey
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/PHHbsCA6Jvk6joXYA>

That got installed after many incidents with one killing family members of
a work colleague when a container *was violently dislodged from a general
flatbed lorry rather than one with twistlocks and fell onto their bonnet
and windscreen.

GH
brian
2024-12-15 21:31:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by brian
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
There used to be some sort of optical sensor that triggered a warning,
just before the low bridge at Slateford station in Edinburgh. It seems
to have gone now.
Was this warning at the roadside or in the driver's cab?
Roadside

Brian
--
Brian Howie
Certes
2024-12-17 10:13:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed). It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
NY
2024-12-17 10:31:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed). It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
Yes any audible or visual warning in the cab, or any roadside sign, needs to
be in advance of the last place where an oversize vehicle can divert or turn
round. Blocking a road but avoiding hitting a bridge is almost as disruptive
(though a lot less serious) as hitting the bridge.
Tweed
2024-12-17 10:53:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Certes
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed). It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
Yes any audible or visual warning in the cab, or any roadside sign, needs to
be in advance of the last place where an oversize vehicle can divert or turn
round. Blocking a road but avoiding hitting a bridge is almost as disruptive
(though a lot less serious) as hitting the bridge.
I think most top deck passengers would take disruption over a potential
trip to hospital or worse.

From memory, doesn’t TfL’s iBus system warn against low bridges? Have there
been any incidents of bridge bashes where there was a working iBus system
in use?
JMB99
2024-12-17 10:49:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.

Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
Tweed
2024-12-17 11:01:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
Obviously signs don’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldn’t happen.
Satnav updates aren’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly don’t
move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav updates for
inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT. I’ve just looked
it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for vehicle height, which I
guess catches out many casual high vehicle users, such as the vans that get
stuck around chez Roland.
Coffee
2024-12-17 13:31:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
Obviously signs don’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldn’t happen.
Satnav updates aren’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly don’t
move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav updates for
inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT. I’ve just looked
it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for vehicle height, which I
guess catches out many casual high vehicle users, such as the vans that get
stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
Tweed
2024-12-17 14:13:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Coffee
Post by Tweed
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
Obviously signs don’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldn’t happen.
Satnav updates aren’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly don’t
move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav updates for
inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT. I’ve just looked
it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for vehicle height, which I
guess catches out many casual high vehicle users, such as the vans that get
stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
It is far too simplistic to blame this just on the drivers. Human
perception has its failings which is why safety systems are incorporated
where reasonably possible, eg TPWS on trains. Satnavs are very cheap these
days, as are updates. There’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for
vehicle height.
Clank
2024-12-17 14:19:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Coffee
Post by Tweed
Obviously signs don’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldn’t happen.
Satnav updates aren’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly
don’t move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav
updates for inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT.
I’ve just looked it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for
vehicle height, which I guess catches out many casual high vehicle
users, such as the vans that get stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
It is far too simplistic to blame this just on the drivers. Human
perception has its failings which is why safety systems are incorporated
where reasonably possible, eg TPWS on trains. Satnavs are very cheap
these days, as are updates. There’s no excuse for Google Maps not
accounting for vehicle height.
Why on Earth do you think road-safety in the Fens should be outsourced to
an American advertising company?

If you want GPS systems to be a cornerstone of road safety, then you need
to have your government contract with suitable providers who will implement
whatever your scheme is. I won't defend Google on much, but the idea that
somehow it's up to them to take responsibility for babysitting Britain's
motorists is absurd.
Tweed
2024-12-17 14:32:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clank
Post by Tweed
Post by Coffee
Post by Tweed
Obviously signs don’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldn’t happen.
Satnav updates aren’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly
don’t move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav
updates for inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT.
I’ve just looked it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for
vehicle height, which I guess catches out many casual high vehicle
users, such as the vans that get stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
It is far too simplistic to blame this just on the drivers. Human
perception has its failings which is why safety systems are incorporated
where reasonably possible, eg TPWS on trains. Satnavs are very cheap
these days, as are updates. There’s no excuse for Google Maps not
accounting for vehicle height.
Why on Earth do you think road-safety in the Fens should be outsourced to
an American advertising company?
If you want GPS systems to be a cornerstone of road safety, then you need
to have your government contract with suitable providers who will implement
whatever your scheme is. I won't defend Google on much, but the idea that
somehow it's up to them to take responsibility for babysitting Britain's
motorists is absurd.
I don’t think it absurd. Google offer a turn by turn navigation
application. It’s obviously intended for in vehicle use because of its
facility to offer both visual and audio turn by turn directions. With that
comes responsibility.
Coffee
2024-12-17 16:00:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clank
Post by Tweed
Post by Coffee
Post by Tweed
Obviously signs don’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldn’t happen.
Satnav updates aren’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly
don’t move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav
updates for inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT.
I’ve just looked it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for
vehicle height, which I guess catches out many casual high vehicle
users, such as the vans that get stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
It is far too simplistic to blame this just on the drivers. Human
perception has its failings which is why safety systems are incorporated
where reasonably possible, eg TPWS on trains. Satnavs are very cheap
these days, as are updates. There’s no excuse for Google Maps not
accounting for vehicle height.
Why on Earth do you think road-safety in the Fens should be outsourced to
an American advertising company?
If you want GPS systems to be a cornerstone of road safety, then you need
to have your government contract with suitable providers who will implement
whatever your scheme is. I won't defend Google on much, but the idea that
somehow it's up to them to take responsibility for babysitting Britain's
motorists is absurd.
It's simpler than that.

There should be a legal requirement on local authorities, government
agencies, police, and the like to update a live database with permanent
and temporary restrictions as well emergency and pre-planned road closures.

Outfits providing satellite navigation in the UK should be required to
continually update routes in accordance with this database.
Mark Goodge
2024-12-17 17:21:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 16:00:26 +0000, Coffee
Post by Coffee
There should be a legal requirement on local authorities, government
agencies, police, and the like to update a live database with permanent
and temporary restrictions as well emergency and pre-planned road closures.
There is, and it exists. You can view a public-facing version of it at
https://one.network/ - sat-nav and mapping operators can get access to the
data via a real-time API.
Post by Coffee
Outfits providing satellite navigation in the UK should be required to
continually update routes in accordance with this database.
That's only possible where the sat-nav is working off cloud data (and hence
is vulnerable to mobile not-spots), rather than downloading the information
to a local cache so that it can work offline. So making that a requirement
isn't necessarily going to be beneficial, even if it was enforceable.

Mark
JMB99
2024-12-17 22:54:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
There is, and it exists.
England only.
JMB99
2024-12-17 22:56:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
England only.
Correction just a bit slower updating Scotland.
JMB99
2024-12-17 14:27:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
There’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for
vehicle height.
I believe there are Add Ons for Sat Navs for HGVs with bridge details,
like the ones you can download with speed camera positions.
Tweed
2024-12-17 14:32:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Tweed
There’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for
vehicle height.
I believe there are Add Ons for Sat Navs for HGVs with bridge details,
like the ones you can download with speed camera positions.
But for the hire van bridge bashers in the fens I suggest many drivers will
be using smart phone navigation.
Mark Goodge
2024-12-17 17:30:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by JMB99
ThereÂ’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for
vehicle height.
I believe there are Add Ons for Sat Navs for HGVs with bridge details,
like the ones you can download with speed camera positions.
But for the hire van bridge bashers in the fens I suggest many drivers will
be using smart phone navigation.
Google Maps doesn't include height restriction data, because Google Maps is
a one-size-fits-all global system and that data isn't available, or isn't
reliable, worldwide. That's a deliberate design decision on their part that
they're unlikely to change in the foreseeable future, on the basis that if
people really need that feature then there are other providers who do offer
it and Google doesn't want to be on the wrong end of a lawsuit from someone
who trusted their data if it happened to be wrong.

That's also why sat-navs designed for HGVs are, often, more expensive than
car sat-navs, because that kind of data is safety-critical and, to be
trustworthy, needs an SLA. And maintaining that SLA is costly.

And that's why too many van and truck drivers use Google Maps as their
sat-nav.

Mark
Tweed
2024-12-17 17:57:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Tweed
Post by JMB99
ThereÂ’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for
vehicle height.
I believe there are Add Ons for Sat Navs for HGVs with bridge details,
like the ones you can download with speed camera positions.
But for the hire van bridge bashers in the fens I suggest many drivers will
be using smart phone navigation.
Google Maps doesn't include height restriction data, because Google Maps is
a one-size-fits-all global system and that data isn't available, or isn't
reliable, worldwide. That's a deliberate design decision on their part that
they're unlikely to change in the foreseeable future, on the basis that if
people really need that feature then there are other providers who do offer
it and Google doesn't want to be on the wrong end of a lawsuit from someone
who trusted their data if it happened to be wrong.
That's also why sat-navs designed for HGVs are, often, more expensive than
car sat-navs, because that kind of data is safety-critical and, to be
trustworthy, needs an SLA. And maintaining that SLA is costly.
And that's why too many van and truck drivers use Google Maps as their
sat-nav.
Mark
It’s not one size fits all at all. You get different displays of
information depending on where you are. For example, in Warsaw it shows the
real time position of trams.
Clank
2024-12-18 08:47:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 14:32:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
Post by Tweed
Post by JMB99
ThereÂ’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for vehicle height.
I believe there are Add Ons for Sat Navs for HGVs with bridge details,
like the ones you can download with speed camera positions.
But for the hire van bridge bashers in the fens I suggest many drivers
will be using smart phone navigation.
Google Maps doesn't include height restriction data, because Google
Maps is a one-size-fits-all global system and that data isn't
available, or isn't reliable, worldwide. That's a deliberate design
decision on their part that they're unlikely to change in the
foreseeable future, on the basis that if people really need that
feature then there are other providers who do offer it and Google
doesn't want to be on the wrong end of a lawsuit from someone who
trusted their data if it happened to be wrong.
That's also why sat-navs designed for HGVs are, often, more expensive
than car sat-navs, because that kind of data is safety-critical and, to
be trustworthy, needs an SLA. And maintaining that SLA is costly.
And that's why too many van and truck drivers use Google Maps as their
sat-nav.
Mark
It’s not one size fits all at all. You get different displays of
information depending on where you are. For example, in Warsaw it shows
the real time position of trams.
...and if drivers were expecting to be able to use the real-time position
of the trams on Google Maps to avoid crashing into one instead of looking
out of the window, it would stop showing the real time position of trams.

If they start showing safety-critical data with a reasonable expectation
that people will then rely on it to make safety-critical decisions, they
are making an implicit commitment that it will be accurate and up-to-
date. It's entirely unreasonable to expect that (from a free service in
particular.)

If you want that, lobby your government to (a) provide a data source that
they will vouch is accurate and (b) legislate that providers who use that
data source will be immune from liability when it turns out that it isn't.
Tweed
2024-12-18 09:00:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clank
Post by Tweed
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 14:32:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
Post by Tweed
Post by JMB99
ThereÂ’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for vehicle height.
I believe there are Add Ons for Sat Navs for HGVs with bridge details,
like the ones you can download with speed camera positions.
But for the hire van bridge bashers in the fens I suggest many drivers
will be using smart phone navigation.
Google Maps doesn't include height restriction data, because Google
Maps is a one-size-fits-all global system and that data isn't
available, or isn't reliable, worldwide. That's a deliberate design
decision on their part that they're unlikely to change in the
foreseeable future, on the basis that if people really need that
feature then there are other providers who do offer it and Google
doesn't want to be on the wrong end of a lawsuit from someone who
trusted their data if it happened to be wrong.
That's also why sat-navs designed for HGVs are, often, more expensive
than car sat-navs, because that kind of data is safety-critical and, to
be trustworthy, needs an SLA. And maintaining that SLA is costly.
And that's why too many van and truck drivers use Google Maps as their
sat-nav.
Mark
It’s not one size fits all at all. You get different displays of
information depending on where you are. For example, in Warsaw it shows
the real time position of trams.
...and if drivers were expecting to be able to use the real-time position
of the trams on Google Maps to avoid crashing into one instead of looking
out of the window, it would stop showing the real time position of trams.
If they start showing safety-critical data with a reasonable expectation
that people will then rely on it to make safety-critical decisions, they
are making an implicit commitment that it will be accurate and up-to-
date. It's entirely unreasonable to expect that (from a free service in
particular.)
If you want that, lobby your government to (a) provide a data source that
they will vouch is accurate and (b) legislate that providers who use that
data source will be immune from liability when it turns out that it isn't.
They already show safety critical information, ie the position of roads, if
they are one way etc. This isn’t always correct, and sometimes tries to
take vehicles down unsuitable roads.

My car’s integrated satnav has a database of speed limits. This becomes
outdated (though is overridden by the forward facing camera) and the car
doesn’t get it 100% correct even with the camera. It doesn’t mean that
either the map provider or the car manufacturer becomes liable for these
discrepancies.

Likewise a bridge height database on Google Maps isn’t going to be 100%
correct (but much more likely to be correct than speed limits or even new
road layouts) and the height limit sign will be the final word.

There was a recent case of errors on the mapping databases being misleading
about a motorway slip road, causing some drivers to enter against the flow
of traffic and leading to accidents and I believe a death. The maps
providers weren’t held liable but did respond to a request to fix things.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2024-12-18 09:18:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 09:00:59 -0000 (UTC)
My car’s integrated satnav has a database of speed limits. This becomes
outdated (though is overridden by the forward facing camera) and the car
doesn’t get it 100% correct even with the camera. It doesn’t mean that
either the map provider or the car manufacturer becomes liable for these
discrepancies.
Likewise a bridge height database on Google Maps isn’t going to be 100%
correct (but much more likely to be correct than speed limits or even new
road layouts) and the height limit sign will be the final word.
Bridge heights are far less likely to change than speed limits.
Clank
2024-12-18 09:19:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Clank
If they start showing safety-critical data with a reasonable
expectation that people will then rely on it to make safety-critical
decisions, they are making an implicit commitment that it will be
accurate and up-to- date. It's entirely unreasonable to expect that
(from a free service in particular.)
If you want that, lobby your government to (a) provide a data source
that they will vouch is accurate and (b) legislate that providers who
use that data source will be immune from liability when it turns out
that it isn't.
They already show safety critical information, ie the position of roads,
if they are one way etc. This isn’t always correct, and sometimes tries
to take vehicles down unsuitable roads.
My car’s integrated satnav has a database of speed limits. This becomes
outdated (though is overridden by the forward facing camera) and the car
doesn’t get it 100% correct even with the camera. It doesn’t mean that
either the map provider or the car manufacturer becomes liable for these
discrepancies.
Likewise a bridge height database on Google Maps isn’t going to be 100%
correct (but much more likely to be correct than speed limits or even
new road layouts) and the height limit sign will be the final word.
So in practice, what you're saying is you don't actually want a solution
to bridge bashers, you just think it would make a nice change that instead
of complaining about stupid drivers not reading road signs, you can
complain about stupid drivers who follow their satnavs instead of, err,
reading road signs?

I'm all in favour of "the perfect not being the enemy of the good", but
"Google should include bridge height information without any expectation
of accuracy, because no driver should rely on it anyway" doesn't really
seem to improve anything.
Post by Tweed
There was a recent case of errors on the mapping databases being
misleading about a motorway slip road, causing some drivers to enter
against the flow of traffic and leading to accidents and I believe a
death. The maps providers weren’t held liable but did respond to a
request to fix things.
Interesting (although sounds like normal-for-Bangkok driving, so maybe a
skill issue ;-).) You have a link for that?
Tweed
2024-12-18 09:38:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clank
Post by Tweed
Post by Clank
If they start showing safety-critical data with a reasonable
expectation that people will then rely on it to make safety-critical
decisions, they are making an implicit commitment that it will be
accurate and up-to- date. It's entirely unreasonable to expect that
(from a free service in particular.)
If you want that, lobby your government to (a) provide a data source
that they will vouch is accurate and (b) legislate that providers who
use that data source will be immune from liability when it turns out
that it isn't.
They already show safety critical information, ie the position of roads,
if they are one way etc. This isn’t always correct, and sometimes tries
to take vehicles down unsuitable roads.
My car’s integrated satnav has a database of speed limits. This becomes
outdated (though is overridden by the forward facing camera) and the car
doesn’t get it 100% correct even with the camera. It doesn’t mean that
either the map provider or the car manufacturer becomes liable for these
discrepancies.
Likewise a bridge height database on Google Maps isn’t going to be 100%
correct (but much more likely to be correct than speed limits or even
new road layouts) and the height limit sign will be the final word.
So in practice, what you're saying is you don't actually want a solution
to bridge bashers, you just think it would make a nice change that instead
of complaining about stupid drivers not reading road signs, you can
complain about stupid drivers who follow their satnavs instead of, err,
reading road signs?
I'm all in favour of "the perfect not being the enemy of the good", but
"Google should include bridge height information without any expectation
of accuracy, because no driver should rely on it anyway" doesn't really
seem to improve anything.
I disagree. For Roland’s favourite bridge it seems that many of the
casualties are hire vans. I would guess that many of these are driven on
phone satnavs. Obviously, you’d need to tell the hirer to set the vehicle
height in Google Maps, which is something that could be stated as the keys
are handed over.

Google knows the bridge heights as they get pretty much all of their
mapping information from Ordance Survey, as do all the sat nav map vendors.
It’s just a question of a bit of user interface adjustment. I think the
issue of liability is a red herring.
JNugent
2024-12-17 16:27:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Tweed
There’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for
vehicle height.
I believe there are Add Ons for Sat Navs for HGVs with bridge details,
like the ones you can download with speed camera positions.
A few years ago, I bought a cheap (c. ÂŁ30) SatNav on eBay for a trip to
Italy. It offered different settings for HGVs and vehicles in the
car-size family, accurately differentiating the speed limits for vehicle
classes and allowing cars along routes with very low bridges.

I can't say I tested it to destruction, but was impressed with its
utility, which seemed to be more or less what you and Tweed are calling for.
Scott
2024-12-17 18:04:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
ThereÂ’s no excuse for Google Maps not accounting for
vehicle height.
I believe there are Add Ons for Sat Navs for HGVs with bridge details,
like the ones you can download with speed camera positions.
Presumably similar to the software for caravans (which costs a lot
more, I believe).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2024-12-17 16:08:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Coffee
Post by Tweed
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
Obviously signs don’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldn’t happen.
Satnav updates aren’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly don’t
move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav updates for
inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT. I’ve just looked
it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for vehicle height, which I
guess catches out many casual high vehicle users, such as the vans that get
stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
"Human Factors" would suggest that the signs aren't sufficient if this
keeps happening. It's all very well saying "drivers should", but clearly
some drivers don't, and that needs to be accounted for in the provision of
protection systems.
Scott
2024-12-17 18:14:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 16:08:42 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Coffee
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
Obviously signs donÂ’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldnÂ’t happen.
Satnav updates arenÂ’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly donÂ’t
move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav updates for
inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT. IÂ’ve just looked
it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for vehicle height, which I
guess catches out many casual high vehicle users, such as the vans that get
stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
"Human Factors" would suggest that the signs aren't sufficient if this
keeps happening. It's all very well saying "drivers should", but clearly
some drivers don't, and that needs to be accounted for in the provision of
protection systems.
Indeed so. You would not run a railway network in this way so how can
it be justified for buses?
Charles Ellson
2024-12-18 04:38:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 18:14:52 +0000, Scott
Post by Scott
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 16:08:42 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Coffee
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
Obviously signs donÂ’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldnÂ’t happen.
Satnav updates arenÂ’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly donÂ’t
move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav updates for
inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT. IÂ’ve just looked
it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for vehicle height, which I
guess catches out many casual high vehicle users, such as the vans that get
stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
"Human Factors" would suggest that the signs aren't sufficient if this
keeps happening. It's all very well saying "drivers should", but clearly
some drivers don't, and that needs to be accounted for in the provision of
protection systems.
Indeed so. You would not run a railway network in this way so how can
it be justified for buses?
Trains don't get diverted through adjacent streets by the signallers.
Scott
2024-12-18 09:44:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 04:38:46 +0000, Charles Ellson
Post by Charles Ellson
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 18:14:52 +0000, Scott
Post by Scott
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 16:08:42 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Coffee
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
Obviously signs donÂ’t work, otherwise bridge bashes wouldnÂ’t happen.
Satnav updates arenÂ’t that important for bridges as bridges mostly donÂ’t
move around or change height significantly. Perhaps satnav updates for
inbuilt devices should be a requirement to pass the MOT. IÂ’ve just looked
it up, and it seems Google Maps has no setting for vehicle height, which I
guess catches out many casual high vehicle users, such as the vans that get
stuck around chez Roland.
The signs do work. It's the drivers who are defective.
"Human Factors" would suggest that the signs aren't sufficient if this
keeps happening. It's all very well saying "drivers should", but clearly
some drivers don't, and that needs to be accounted for in the provision of
protection systems.
Indeed so. You would not run a railway network in this way so how can
it be justified for buses?
Trains don't get diverted through adjacent streets by the signallers.
I was responding to the comment in Anna's post about the provision of
protection systems. And, actually, trains do get diverted. AIUI the
driver requires to possess 'route knowledge' for the diversionary
route.
Recliner
2024-12-17 11:39:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
I wonder if such advance warning signs could include some sort of
machine-readable QR code that the vehicle’s cameras detect, and act on, by
altering satnav directions, warning the driver and then, if all else fails,
applying the emergency brake?
Nick Finnigan
2024-12-17 11:56:20 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Recliner
I wonder if such advance warning signs could include some sort of
machine-readable QR code that the vehicle’s cameras detect, and act on, by
altering satnav directions, warning the driver and then, if all else fails,
applying the emergency brake?
As long as no double-dealing do-badders know the QR code ?
Recliner
2024-12-17 12:04:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Recliner
I wonder if such advance warning signs could include some sort of
machine-readable QR code that the vehicle’s cameras detect, and act on, by
altering satnav directions, warning the driver and then, if all else fails,
applying the emergency brake?
As long as no double-dealing do-badders know the QR code ?
Yes, they’d need to be encrypted and check-summed.
Rolf Mantel
2024-12-17 12:12:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Recliner
I wonder if such advance warning signs could include some sort of
machine-readable QR code that the vehicle’s cameras detect, and act on, by
altering satnav directions, warning the driver and then, if all else fails,
applying the emergency brake?
As long as no double-dealing do-badders know the QR code ?
Yes, they’d need to be encrypted and check-summed.
Like speed-limit road signs?

It was "real fun" when a car I was test driving suddenly slowed down on
the motorway because a lorry I was overtaking had a "speed limit"
sticker (at least the "accelerator override" was working intuitively) -
one of the reasons I now drive Hyundai rather than VW.
Rolf Mantel
2024-12-17 12:07:56 UTC
Reply
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Post by Recliner
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
I wonder if such advance warning signs could include some sort of
machine-readable QR code that the vehicle’s cameras detect, and act on, by
altering satnav directions, warning the driver and then, if all else fails,
applying the emergency brake?
I believe the generic "road sign detection" should be good enough with
no need for QR codes, like it is for speed limits.
JMB99
2024-12-17 14:24:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
I believe the generic "road sign detection" should be good enough with
no need for QR codes, like it is for speed limits.
What proportion of cars have it, mine does not.
Rolf Mantel
2024-12-17 14:37:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Rolf Mantel
I believe the generic "road sign detection" should be good enough with
no need for QR codes, like it is for speed limits.
What proportion of cars have it, mine does not.
The proportion is larger than the proportion of cars that can safely and
securely decode QR codes.

My vague memory is that new car models introduced after 2018 must be
able to detect speed limit sings and be able to display them in the
cockkpit, and new car models introduced after 2022 must be able to
automatically adjust their speed to a changing speed limit (mine
introduced in 2020 adjusts the speed automatically to a changing speed
limit when I drive on a motorway or similar road and when I have
activated cruise control with a requested speed exactly at the speed
limit - So I usually set the cruise control at 119 or 121 in a 120 km/h
speed limit to avoid this).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2024-12-17 16:08:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by Recliner
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
I wonder if such advance warning signs could include some sort of
machine-readable QR code that the vehicle’s cameras detect, and act on, by
altering satnav directions, warning the driver and then, if all else fails,
applying the emergency brake?
I believe the generic "road sign detection" should be good enough with
no need for QR codes, like it is for speed limits.
A single deck bus route turns left under this bridge. Double deck buses run
empty, straight on to reach the depot.

<https://maps.app.goo.gl/7r5SwuZEBGrKRgfq5>

Every couple of years, a driver forgets that they are going empty to depot
with a double decker and autopilot/muscle memory/brain fart means they turn
left as if they are on the single deck route.

At what point would your road sign detection system intervene? The bridge
is 32 feet (~10m) from the junction.
JNugent
2024-12-17 16:19:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by Recliner
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
I wonder if such advance warning signs could include some sort of
machine-readable QR code that the vehicle’s cameras detect, and act on, by
altering satnav directions, warning the driver and then, if all else fails,
applying the emergency brake?
I believe the generic "road sign detection" should be good enough with
no need for QR codes, like it is for speed limits.
100%!
JMB99
2024-12-17 22:52:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
I believe the generic "road sign detection" should be good enough with
no need for QR codes, like it is for speed limits.
It will need a whole new change in mindset by councils and road
authorities to ensure any database updated. Signs clean, clear of
obstructions etc etc.

The only way that can happen is if a named person in the council or road
authority is made personally responsible for accuracy and is personally
prosecuted so has to pay any fine himself.

There is a 20 mph sign on a road near here with the 20 mph always
illuminated - I suspect 24/7 though been along to check.

There was a village on the A82 down Loch Lomond that, years go, had its
20 mph school speed limit sign definitely illuminated 24/7.

Both these locations are on main trunk road with numerous police,
council, road authority vehicles passing regularly.

I know from personal experience that if your report poor signage design
feature to the police they are not interested.

Will these new signs have a data logger recording their status so if you
are prosecuted for ignoring them, you can prove the sign was not working.
Roland Perry
2024-12-18 11:19:07 UTC
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Permalink
Post by JMB99
Will these new signs have a data logger recording their status so if
you are prosecuted for ignoring them, you can prove the sign was not
working.
That's one of the main reasons I have a dashcam. And for the last six
months a second rear-facing one because of all the road-rage I
experience when people think I should not be obeying 20mph limits on
virtually empty wide roads.
--
Roland Perry
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2024-12-17 16:08:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded.  It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed).  It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
You can't beat a big sign at the side of the road warning of low bridge
- does not need updates, does not need power and compatible with all
vehicles.
Politicians are very fond of calling for things like to be on Sat Nav
maps, ignoring the fact that most Sat Navs are never updated and many
turn off / don't enable alarms.
And yet here we are, discussing yet another incident where the big sign at
the side of the road has, very clearly, been beaten.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2024-12-17 16:08:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Scott
Post by JMB99
BBC News
"Roof torn off bus after railway bridge crash
A double decker bus has crashed into a railway bridge with its roof
tearing off in Glasgow city centre.
The 4A First Bus became wedged under the bridge on Cook Street at the
junction with Commerce Street at about 18:00. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyk3pyp7yno
Why can't they hang a cable across the road connected to a very loud
siren to provide at least some warning as to what is about to occur?
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or take
other action if it's exceeded. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to
devise something similar for height limits, programmable once with the
vehicle size as comparison (in place of current speed). It might have
to use some intelligence about limits which occur ahead - there's no
point in warning of a limit after reaching the bridge.
Doesn't necessarily work if the height restriction is *just* off a regular,
height-ok route. A warning which beeps every time you drive along the main
road, and therefore gets routinely ignored, won't help stop a driver
accidentally turning off that road into a low bridge, for example.
Roland Perry
2024-12-17 18:22:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or
take other action if it's exceeded.
Or detect what they think is the speed limit. Near where I'm living at
the moment, is a road where about two miles are definitely 30mph, but
my car wrongly nags me it's 20mph.
--
Roland Perry
Coffee
2024-12-17 20:41:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or
take other action if it's exceeded.
Or detect what they think is the speed limit. Near where I'm living at
the moment, is a road where about two miles are definitely 30mph, but
my car wrongly nags me it's 20mph.
The speed limit is not a target speed is a... er... speed limit. An
under-detection is not a problem. It the over-detection you should be
worried about.
Charles Ellson
2024-12-18 04:51:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 20:41:08 +0000, Coffee
Post by Coffee
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or
take other action if it's exceeded.
Or detect what they think is the speed limit. Near where I'm living at
the moment, is a road where about two miles are definitely 30mph, but
my car wrongly nags me it's 20mph.
The speed limit is not a target speed is a... er... speed limit. An
under-detection is not a problem. It the over-detection you should be
worried about.
Under detection is a problem if you are doing 50mph towards London on
the A3 and random vehicles slow down in response to the 30mph signs on
adjacent service roads whose positions are little different to signs
on the main carriageway.
Roland Perry
2024-12-18 11:16:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Coffee
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or
take other action if it's exceeded.
Or detect what they think is the speed limit. Near where I'm living
at the moment, is a road where about two miles are definitely 30mph,
my car wrongly nags me it's 20mph.
The speed limit is not a target speed is a... er... speed limit. An
under-detection is not a problem. It the over-detection you should be
worried about.
The under-detection is a problem when you are driving at 20mph on a road
that's 30mph, and this creates road-rage in fellow motorists.
--
Roland Perry
Tweed
2024-12-18 12:00:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Coffee
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Certes
Many vehicles detect the current speed limit and warn the driver or
take other action if it's exceeded.
Or detect what they think is the speed limit. Near where I'm living
at the moment, is a road where about two miles are definitely 30mph,
my car wrongly nags me it's 20mph.
The speed limit is not a target speed is a... er... speed limit. An
under-detection is not a problem. It the over-detection you should be
worried about.
The under-detection is a problem when you are driving at 20mph on a road
that's 30mph, and this creates road-rage in fellow motorists.
The system is advisory. Even if you a speed limiter programmed by the
system it’s a button press away to override. My car occasionally picks up
an erroneous 20, from a sign on a side street that is poorly positioned. A
quick press on the steering wheel mounted button and I’m back to 30.
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