London Terminals

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th
May 2018".
Why?

Presumably something to do with the Thameslink Programme.

I think London Terminals is going to need a shakeup, since there's now (or
shortly will be, with Crossrail) a lot more places where their train
continues beyond the traditional terminus at the edge of Zone 1.

In Thameslink this was a bit fudged (Blackfriars was a Terminal coming from
the south, but not the north, and special Thameslink tickets were necessary
to go further), but I'm not sure how sustainable that is when it now applies
to new destinations like March or King's Lynn (that maybe don't have
direct Thameslink trains but are now a natural change onto one)

But no idea what the solution might be. Perhaps Mr Perry can add it to his
list?

Theo

Roland Perry

2018-05-08 10:42:08 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th
May 2018".
Why?

Presumably something to do with the Thameslink Programme.

Perhaps what Sir needs is a "London Thameslink" ticket?

Post by Theo
I think London Terminals is going to need a shakeup, since there's now (or
shortly will be, with Crossrail) a lot more places where their train
continues beyond the traditional terminus at the edge of Zone 1.
In Thameslink this was a bit fudged (Blackfriars was a Terminal coming from
the south, but not the north, and special Thameslink tickets were necessary
to go further),

http://www.perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html

Is about ten years old, and I think still valid (although many of the
UZ-xx have disappeared over time, but were never fully populated).

See in particular #5.

I'd love to be able to update it, but GTR have not released the final
(or what we suppose might be final (their Twitter people can't or won't
say) Fares Manual pages yet. Less than two weeks to go :(

Post by Theo
but I'm not sure how sustainable that is when it now applies
to new destinations like March or King's Lynn (that maybe don't have
direct Thameslink trains but are now a natural change onto one)

March? The current fares manual assumes you'll be going to London via
Peterborough.

The most northerly terminus on the Fen Line for Thameslink trains is
Cambridge North (eventually; it remains Cambridge for the next timetable
period), and on the ECML Peterborough.

There's a definite boundary in the fares system just south of
Waterbeach. One example being how through fares to the Midlands and
beyond are biassed towards "Not London", and the other that there's no
evening peak blackout on off-peak returns.

Post by Theo
But no idea what the solution might be. Perhaps Mr Perry can add it to his
list?

I'd expect for all these reasons, that Cambridge North (which used to be
in an unofficial "group" with Cambridge, I'm not sure if that's a long
term thing) will be the outer reaches of "London Thameslink" fares.

Another issue that's been raised here, and not answered yet, is how a
migration to "London Thameslink" fares might affect in particular the
definitions of Peak and Off-peak.

--
Roland Perry

Primitive Person

2018-05-08 11:05:42 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th
May 2018".
Why?

Presumably something to do with the Thameslink Programme.
I think London Terminals is going to need a shakeup, since there's now (or
shortly will be, with Crossrail) a lot more places where their train
continues beyond the traditional terminus at the edge of Zone 1.
In Thameslink this was a bit fudged (Blackfriars was a Terminal coming from
the south, but not the north, and special Thameslink tickets were necessary
to go further), but I'm not sure how sustainable that is when it now applies
to new destinations like March or King's Lynn (that maybe don't have
direct Thameslink trains but are now a natural change onto one)
But no idea what the solution might be. Perhaps Mr Perry can add it to his
list?
Theo

In the early 2000s I briefly worked as a booking clerk at Holborn tube station, and we had constant problems with people showing up on London Terminals tickets. Turns out it was possible to get from the platforms at King's Cross Thameslink onto the Piccadilly line without passing through any barriers, so the first indication anyone had that their ticket wasn't valid was trying to exit via the barriers at Holborn.

We were told we had to penalty fare them (tenner a pop) every time it happened, and it caused no end of angry confrontations. In the end the staff refused to do it as it was far too much aggro and there were some assaults over it.

Thankfully Oyster/contactless has gone some way to eliminate this problem, but yes, there's potentially still some remaining issues - don't Blackfriars trains go through London Bridge from the south first?

PP

Roland Perry

2018-05-08 11:28:43 UTC

Post by Primitive Person

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th
May 2018".
Why?

Presumably something to do with the Thameslink Programme.
I think London Terminals is going to need a shakeup, since there's now (or
shortly will be, with Crossrail) a lot more places where their train
continues beyond the traditional terminus at the edge of Zone 1.
In Thameslink this was a bit fudged (Blackfriars was a Terminal coming from
the south, but not the north, and special Thameslink tickets were necessary
to go further), but I'm not sure how sustainable that is when it now applies
to new destinations like March or King's Lynn (that maybe don't have
direct Thameslink trains but are now a natural change onto one)
But no idea what the solution might be. Perhaps Mr Perry can add it to his
list?

All three deep tube lines. And at that time also Finsbury Park
(Picc/Vicc).

Post by Primitive Person
so the first indication anyone had that their ticket wasn't valid was
trying to exit via the barriers at Holborn.
We were told we had to penalty fare them (tenner a pop) every time it
happened, and it caused no end of angry confrontations. In the end the
staff refused to do it as it was far too much aggro and there were some
assaults over it.
Thankfully Oyster/contactless has gone some way to eliminate this
problem, but yes, there's potentially still some remaining issues -
don't Blackfriars trains go through London Bridge from the south first?

Or Loogerbooger Junct, but that's not a London terminal.

In any event, I don't think London Terminals validity expires at the
first LT you encounter - I used to travel from into Waterloo and them on
to London Bridge via Waterloo East on a LT ticket.

--
Roland Perry

Richard

2018-05-08 19:41:15 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
In any event, I don't think London Terminals validity expires at the
first LT you encounter - I used to travel from into Waterloo and them on
to London Bridge via Waterloo East on a LT ticket.

Absolutely - you can travel to any London Terminal group member on a
permitted route into London, as long as you don't pass Farringdon,
which needs a specific, London Thameslink or London Underground Zone 1
(+) fare. One exception: if you have a ticket with route 'Plus High
Speed', you *are* allowed to pass Farringdon to get to the other side,
so on most ticket types - in practice all - you can enter/exit there.
The 'terminals' you can use are listed in some reference data provided
by National Rail Enquiries which will soon be appearing on every
site/app (it's on some already) as it's an accreditation requirement.
It's not contractual, though, which is just as well as it has some
errors in it!

I will look at the data tomorrow at work. Removing Blackfriars from
London Terminals sounds daft - the London Thameslink group is being
expanded, I understand, to cover the southern parts of the Thameslink
core but there's no need to take it out of the original group.
Whatever shenanigans are planned for Crossrail, which feels like a
bigger shake-up, any changes at Blackfiars, and by implication City
Thameslink aren't going to be welcome. Any chance that the poster was
put up at the wrong station? Or just wrong?

Richard.

G***@live.co.uk

2018-05-08 21:15:56 UTC

Post by Richard

Absolutely - you can travel to any London Terminal group member on a
permitted route into London, as long as you don't pass Farringdon,
which needs a specific, London Thameslink or London Underground Zone 1
(+) fare. One exception: if you have a ticket with route 'Plus High
Speed', you *are* allowed to pass Farringdon to get to the other side,
so on most ticket types - in practice all - you can enter/exit there.
The 'terminals' you can use are listed in some reference data provided
by National Rail Enquiries which will soon be appearing on every
site/app (it's on some already) as it's an accreditation requirement.
It's not contractual, though, which is just as well as it has some
errors in it!
I will look at the data tomorrow at work. Removing Blackfriars from
London Terminals sounds daft - the London Thameslink group is being
expanded, I understand, to cover the southern parts of the Thameslink
core but there's no need to take it out of the original group.
Whatever shenanigans are planned for Crossrail, which feels like a
bigger shake-up, any changes at Blackfiars, and by implication City
Thameslink aren't going to be welcome. Any chance that the poster was
put up at the wrong station? Or just wrong?
Richard.

It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south, who can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals ticket. The problem is (but it has always been) that Blackfriars and City Thameslink are only a "London Terminal" from the south, not the north, but the magnetic stripe cannot be encoded with sufficient data to distinguish if the journey it relates to started from north of south. I am not sure what happens at present because in theory, a ticket from St Albans to London Terminals should open the gates at the likes of Blackfriars, even though it is not valid there.

There is also the situation that a ticket from the GN line to "London Terminals" is valid between Kings Cross and Moorgate on LU but not for alighting intermediately. Will that concession remain post-Thameslink?

Charles Ellson

2018-05-09 00:58:38 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk

Post by Richard

Absolutely - you can travel to any London Terminal group member on a
permitted route into London, as long as you don't pass Farringdon,
which needs a specific, London Thameslink or London Underground Zone 1
(+) fare. One exception: if you have a ticket with route 'Plus High
Speed', you *are* allowed to pass Farringdon to get to the other side,
so on most ticket types - in practice all - you can enter/exit there.
The 'terminals' you can use are listed in some reference data provided
by National Rail Enquiries which will soon be appearing on every
site/app (it's on some already) as it's an accreditation requirement.
It's not contractual, though, which is just as well as it has some
errors in it!
I will look at the data tomorrow at work. Removing Blackfriars from
London Terminals sounds daft - the London Thameslink group is being
expanded, I understand, to cover the southern parts of the Thameslink
core but there's no need to take it out of the original group.
Whatever shenanigans are planned for Crossrail, which feels like a
bigger shake-up, any changes at Blackfiars, and by implication City
Thameslink aren't going to be welcome. Any chance that the poster was
put up at the wrong station? Or just wrong?
Richard.

It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south, who can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals ticket. The problem is (but it has always been) that Blackfriars and City Thameslink are only a "London Terminal" from the south, not the north, but the magnetic stripe cannot be encoded with sufficient data to distinguish if the journey it relates to started from north of south. I am not sure what happens at present because in theory, a ticket from St Albans to London Terminals should open the gates at the likes of Blackfriars, even though it is not valid there.
There is also the situation that a ticket from the GN line to "London Terminals" is valid between Kings Cross and Moorgate on LU but not for alighting intermediately. Will that concession remain post-Thameslink?

That probably dates from when you had little or no trains down the
Finsbury Park-Moorgate route at various times which is no longer the
case so the concession is obsolete.

Roland Perry

2018-05-09 07:19:27 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south, who
can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals
ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in the
vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London Bridge, or
wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2018-05-09 08:21:45 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south, who can
presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in the
vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London Bridge, or
wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

not all trains to Blackfriars pass through LB

it is the ones that don't, for which this rule makes no sense

tim

Roland Perry

2018-05-09 09:02:56 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south,
who can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals
ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in
the vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London
Bridge, or wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

not all trains to Blackfriars pass through LB
it is the ones that don't, for which this rule makes no sense

People can still buy a ticket (today for example a <somewhere> to
specifically Farringdon, if that's your destination).

If this restriction is true, then people will have to get an alternative
train, to one of the remaining London Terminals. But I'm not sure how
many people will actually be holding such a ticket, rather than a
Travelcard or "London Thameslink" one.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2018-05-09 10:49:35 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south, who
can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals
ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in the
vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London Bridge, or
wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

not all trains to Blackfriars pass through LB
it is the ones that don't, for which this rule makes no sense

People can still buy a ticket (today for example a <somewhere> to
specifically Farringdon, if that's your destination).
If this restriction is true, then people will have to get an alternative
train, to one of the remaining London Terminals. But I'm not sure how many
people will actually be holding such a ticket, rather than a Travelcard or
"London Thameslink" one.

It's exactly what I have

usually I will use the ticket to go to LB/CX or Vic

but the possibility of using it to Blackfriars is something that I take
advantage of, as it's quicker than changing to go to LB

tim

Post by Roland Perry
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2018-05-09 11:23:21 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south,
who can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London
Terminals ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in
the vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London
Bridge, or wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

not all trains to Blackfriars pass through LB
it is the ones that don't, for which this rule makes no sense

People can still buy a ticket (today for example a <somewhere> to
specifically Farringdon, if that's your destination).
If this restriction is true, then people will have to get an
alternative train, to one of the remaining London Terminals. But I'm
not sure how many people will actually be holding such a ticket,
rather than a Travelcard or "London Thameslink" one.

It's exactly what I have

You have the worst luck.

Post by tim...
usually I will use the ticket to go to LB/CX or Vic
but the possibility of using it to Blackfriars is something that I take
advantage of, as it's quicker than changing to go to LB

Not every ticketing change gives everyone better choices.

--
Roland Perry

Richard

2018-05-09 19:04:03 UTC

Post by tim...
usually I will use the ticket to go to LB/CX or Vic
but the possibility of using it to Blackfriars is something that I take
advantage of, as it's quicker than changing to go to LB

Not every ticketing change gives everyone better choices.

Call off the hounds! It's the end of the free travel arrangements for
the London Bridge work.

The industry data shows BFR to remain a London Terminal.

Richard.

Julian Shute

2018-05-09 10:52:51 UTC

I use Oyster or Conactless on my Thameslink route from Wimbledon to London St. Pancras (Thameslink exit). The same NR fare is charged as it would be Blackfriars or City Thameslink so I use this to travel rather than change onto the tube at Vauxhall. Farringdon is unusal as it has a LU gate line as well as NR. Not sure what would happen if you exit from TL platform through the LU gateline. It should be the same fare as exiting through the NR gareline, but I suspect a NR + LU zone 1 would be charged.

Primitive Person

2018-05-09 10:57:52 UTC

Post by Julian Shute
I use Oyster or Conactless on my Thameslink route from Wimbledon to London St. Pancras (Thameslink exit). The same NR fare is charged as it would be Blackfriars or City Thameslink so I use this to travel rather than change onto the tube at Vauxhall. Farringdon is unusal as it has a LU gate line as well as NR. Not sure what would happen if you exit from TL platform through the LU gateline. It should be the same fare as exiting through the NR gareline, but I suspect a NR + LU zone 1 would be charged.

Could be that that's about to change - keep an eye on the situation.

PP

Recliner

2018-05-09 11:07:35 UTC

Post by Primitive Person

Post by Julian Shute
I use Oyster or Conactless on my Thameslink route from Wimbledon to
London St. Pancras (Thameslink exit). The same NR fare is charged as it
would be Blackfriars or City Thameslink so I use this to travel rather
than change onto the tube at Vauxhall. Farringdon is unusal as it has a
LU gate line as well as NR. Not sure what would happen if you exit from
TL platform through the LU gateline. It should be the same fare as
exiting through the NR gareline, but I suspect a NR + LU zone 1 would be charged.

Could be that that's about to change - keep an eye on the situation.

Which will be the normal gateline for Elizabeth Line customers? Presumably
the TL one?

Arthur Figgis

2018-05-09 17:19:20 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south, who
can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in the
vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London Bridge, or
wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

Anyone on the Sutton loop?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Roland Perry

2018-05-09 19:17:29 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south,
who can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London
Terminals ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in
the vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London
Bridge, or wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

Anyone on the Sutton loop?

I didn't realise that living on the Sutton Loop constrained you to
working near City Thameslink.

--
Roland Perry

Arthur Figgis

2018-05-09 21:50:40 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south,
who can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London
Terminals ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in
the vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London
Bridge, or wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

Anyone on the Sutton loop?

I didn't realise that living on the Sutton Loop constrained you to
working near City Thameslink.

Possibly easier to get to than London Bridge. When there were attempts
to remove the loop from Thameslink, many people weren't happy bunnies.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Recliner

2018-05-09 22:21:21 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south,
who can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London
Terminals ticket.

Assuming you really do mean "commuters", how many actually work in
the vicinity of City Thameslink (and/or couldn't walk from London
Bridge, or wherever it is in future they'll be turfed off).

Anyone on the Sutton loop?

I didn't realise that living on the Sutton Loop constrained you to
working near City Thameslink.

Possibly easier to get to than London Bridge. When there were attempts
to remove the loop from Thameslink, many people weren't happy bunnies.

I thought what they objected to was Sutton loop trains only going as far as
Blackfriars, even though the new station track layout was designed to
segregate the flows. They won, and still get through Thameslink services to
St Pancras and beyond, even though this potentially reduces capacity at
Blackfriars.

tim...

2018-05-09 08:20:05 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk

Post by Richard

Absolutely - you can travel to any London Terminal group member on a
permitted route into London, as long as you don't pass Farringdon,
which needs a specific, London Thameslink or London Underground Zone 1
(+) fare. One exception: if you have a ticket with route 'Plus High
Speed', you *are* allowed to pass Farringdon to get to the other side,
so on most ticket types - in practice all - you can enter/exit there.
The 'terminals' you can use are listed in some reference data provided
by National Rail Enquiries which will soon be appearing on every
site/app (it's on some already) as it's an accreditation requirement.
It's not contractual, though, which is just as well as it has some
errors in it!
I will look at the data tomorrow at work. Removing Blackfriars from
London Terminals sounds daft - the London Thameslink group is being
expanded, I understand, to cover the southern parts of the Thameslink
core but there's no need to take it out of the original group.
Whatever shenanigans are planned for Crossrail, which feels like a
bigger shake-up, any changes at Blackfiars, and by implication City
Thameslink aren't going to be welcome. Any chance that the poster was
put up at the wrong station? Or just wrong?
Richard.

It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south, who can
presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals ticket. The
problem is (but it has always been) that Blackfriars and City Thameslink
are only a "London Terminal" from the south, not the north, but the
magnetic stripe cannot be encoded with sufficient data to distinguish if
the journey it relates to started from north of south. I am not sure what
happens at present because in theory, a ticket from St Albans to London
Terminals should open the gates at the likes of Blackfriars, even though
it is not valid there.

they solve that with my tickets by not opening the barrier anyway

despite it being valid

tim

Clive Page

2018-05-09 09:07:41 UTC

Post by G***@live.co.uk
It will certainly be very unpopular with commuters from the south, who can presently get as far as City Thameslink on a London Terminals ticket. The problem is (but it has always been) that Blackfriars and City Thameslink are only a "London Terminal" from the south, not the north, but the magnetic stripe cannot be encoded with sufficient data to distinguish if the journey it relates to started from north of south.

Surely the magnetic stripe includes a code for the journey-origin station? If so it's not the stripe itself but the poor programming skills on the part of those who program the barriers?

I am not sure what happens at present because in theory, a ticket from St Albans to London Terminals should open the gates at the likes of Blackfriars, even though it is not valid there.

I don't think such a ticket still exists - they have all been replaced by "London Thameslink" as the destination.

Post by G***@live.co.uk
There is also the situation that a ticket from the GN line to "London Terminals" is valid between Kings Cross and Moorgate on LU but not for alighting intermediately. Will that concession remain post-Thameslink?

Are you sure that is still true? Certainly the tickets from Thameslink north stations to London Thameslink which used to valid to Barbican and Moorgate are no longer valid there. A notice to that effect appeared not long after they closed the line. But they are still valid to London Bridge going by tube from St.Pancras during the rebuilding of London Bridge, so you can certainly enter the tube system at St.Pancras using such a ticket.

--
Clive Page

tim...

2018-05-08 10:32:47 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th
May 2018".

but that makes no sense

what is one supposed to do if entering London on a service that only goes to
(thorough) Blackfriars.

It's not like there's an alternative station to alight at instead

tim

R. Mark Clayton

2018-05-08 11:16:05 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th
May 2018".

but that makes no sense
what is one supposed to do if entering London on a service that only goes to
(thorough) Blackfriars.
It's not like there's an alternative station to alight at instead
tim

indeed there are still about 6 - 8 tph through Elephant and Castle.

Roland Perry

2018-05-08 14:43:11 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from
20th May 2018".

but that makes no sense
what is one supposed to do if entering London on a service that only
goes to (thorough) Blackfriars.

Buy a ticket to "London Thameslink", or indeed, a Travelcard.

We don't know, because the new Fares Manual is even more behind than the
timetable, but they might even be in the process of withdrawing almost
all the former <somewhere> to London Terminals tickets whose flow is
likely to go via Blackfriars.

Like they did from places like Luton many years ago.

--
Roland Perry

martin.coffee

2018-05-08 14:53:58 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from
20th May 2018".

but that makes no sense
what is one supposed to do if entering London on a service that only
goes to (thorough) Blackfriars.

Buy a ticket to "London Thameslink", or indeed, a Travelcard.
We don't know, because the new Fares Manual is even more behind than the
timetable, but they might even be in the process of withdrawing almost
all the former <somewhere> to London Terminals tickets whose flow is
likely to go via Blackfriars.
Like they did from places like Luton many years ago.

The London Terminals ticket have the advantage you can use different
terminals and sometimes different routes outbound and inbound. I've
always made great use of them.

It will be a severe loss of flexibility if its use is stopped,

Clive Page

2018-05-08 15:29:31 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that "London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th May 2018".

but that makes no sense
what is one supposed to do if entering London on a service that only goes to (thorough) Blackfriars.
It's not like there's an alternative station to alight at instead

My guess is that it means that it's no longer a valid terminal when travelling from the North. I *think* that Farringdon is now the furthest that you can go (it was Moorgate but they closed that loophole by closing the line).

--
Clive Page

tim...

2018-05-09 08:17:54 UTC

Post by Clive Page

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th
May 2018".

but that makes no sense
what is one supposed to do if entering London on a service that only goes
to (thorough) Blackfriars.
It's not like there's an alternative station to alight at instead

My guess is that it means that it's no longer a valid terminal when
travelling from the North.

surely it never was.

tim

Roland Perry

2018-05-09 09:07:56 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign
that "London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station
from 20th May 2018".

but that makes no sense
what is one supposed to do if entering London on a service that only
goes to (thorough) Blackfriars.
It's not like there's an alternative station to alight at instead

My guess is that it means that it's no longer a valid terminal when
travelling from the North.

surely it never was.

Indeed. I think people are getting terribly confused by conflating
"London Terminals" and [stations permitted on] "London Thameslink".

From the *south* however, the historical position was:

"A 'London Terminals' ticket is valid to City Thameslink,
London Blackfriars, London Bridge, and Elephant & Castle;
the destination station must be specified to travel to St
Pancras or Farringdon."

NB. That extract from my website does *not* intend to imply that
Farringdon is a "London terminal".

--
Roland Perry

Certes

2018-05-08 12:18:00 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that "London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th May 2018".
Why?
Chris

Surely they can't say to pax entering London via Elephant and Castle:
"This counts as your London Terminal; you have to pay extra to get to
Blackfriars"? Especially as many of them will be on annual season
tickets and arguably have a contract to deliver them to Blackfriars.

Silent Hunter

2018-05-09 20:15:06 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that "London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th May 2018".
Why?
Chris

"This counts as your London Terminal; you have to pay extra to get to
Blackfriars"? Especially as many of them will be on annual season
tickets and arguably have a contract to deliver them to Blackfriars.

Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all the stations, including Underground?

Christopher A. Lee

2018-05-09 20:20:16 UTC

On Wed, 9 May 2018 13:15:06 -0700 (PDT), Silent Hunter

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that "London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th May 2018".
Why?
Chris

Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all the stations, including Underground?

Too easy.

Roland Perry

2018-05-09 20:43:25 UTC

Post by Silent Hunter
Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

Such tickets are already available (from many, if not all, originating
stations), should anyone want to buy them.

At the risk of being boring/repetitive, see 0785 in #2 here:

http://www.perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html

Straw poll: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=LEI&dest=0785

--
Roland Perry

Theo

2018-05-09 20:56:37 UTC

Post by Silent Hunter
Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

I'm sure I've bought a fare to 'London U1' or something like that, which
gives a single journey on the Underground to zone 1. But that destination
doesn't seem to exist on BR Fares.

Raileasy has:
London Travelcard Zone 1
London Underground Zone 1

which seem to map to the same fare (from Cambridge £25.40, which is the
price of an off-peak day return to London Terminals).

So the answer is I think we do, but you have to try rather hard to buy it.

Theo

Roland Perry

2018-05-10 07:40:11 UTC

Post by Silent Hunter
Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

I'm sure I've bought a fare to 'London U1' or something like that, which
gives a single journey on the Underground to zone 1. But that destination
doesn't seem to exist on BR Fares.

ZONE U1* LONDN

Post by Theo
London Travelcard Zone 1
London Underground Zone 1
which seem to map to the same fare (from Cambridge £25.40, which is the
price of an off-peak day return to London Terminals).

Although: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=CBG&dest=0785

Comes up blank. I think Raileasy is making a mistake in its translation
tables.

Meanwhile Hull Trains (mixingdesk) accepts Cambridge to 0785 > Zone U1*
Londn, however it translates it much more plausibly into a Travelcard.

Post by Theo
So the answer is I think we do, but you have to try rather hard to buy it.

Back in the day I always bought a ticket to U1, because while it was
more expensive than London Terminals it was cheaper than a Travelcard,
or a London Terminals ticket plus two tube fares.

And that recipe (3 choices) is still true from Leicester.

I think I can see what's happened. At some point the fare scheme has
been simplified[tm] such that the middle (U1) fare has been withdrawn
from some stations, possibly those FSVO "closer to London" [== Inside
NSE perhaps].

This might also have happened at the same time as Outboundary
Travelcards became available only to Z1-6, but that's just speculation.

--
Roland Perry

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2018-05-10 06:25:06 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th May 2018".
Why?
Chris

Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

Why should I pay extra for Z1 travel I’m not going to use?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry

2018-05-10 07:43:24 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th May 2018".
Why?
Chris

Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

Why should I pay extra for Z1 travel I’m not going to use?

If you have exclusively a "Blackfriars" hat on, then it turns out all
that's been withdrawn is arriving there *on the tube* on an LT ticket,
most likely having changed at LB and Monument because of the loss of
direct Thameslink services during the LB rebuild.

--
Roland Perry

TimB

2018-05-10 07:58:39 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th May 2018".
Why?
Chris

Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

Why should I pay extra for Z1 travel I’m not going to use?

Yesterday, just out of interest, I bought a ticket to London Blackfriars from a machine at Cambridge. When I tried to use it to get into St Pancras low level it was refused (and the barrier staff were not particularly friendly). It was a London Terminals ticket, of course.
But how was I supposed to get to Blackfriars?
Tim

Roland Perry

2018-05-10 11:01:39 UTC

Post by TimB

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that
"London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station
from 20th May 2018".
Why?
Chris

Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

Why should I pay extra for Z1 travel I’m not going to use?

Yesterday, just out of interest, I bought a ticket to London
Blackfriars from a machine at Cambridge.

How much did it cost?

Post by TimB
When I tried to use it to get into St Pancras low level it was refused
(and the barrier staff were not particularly friendly). It was a London
Terminals ticket, of course.

You were mis-sold.

Post by TimB
But how was I supposed to get to Blackfriars?

You can't, from the North, on a London Terminals ticket - and haven't in
the ~10 years I've been maintaining:

http://www.perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html

You need a ticket to 4453 / London Thameslink, which according to the
Hull Trains site is £27.40 compared to £25.40 (for an off-peak day
return). Also compared to £33.50 for an Off Peak Travelcard.

--
Roland Perry

Richard

2018-05-10 19:46:14 UTC

On Thu, 10 May 2018 06:25:06 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Silent Hunter
Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

Why should I pay extra for Z1 travel Im not going to use?

I take the point, but this happens all the time doesn't it? Any zonal
scheme, and particularly a multi-modal fare, will have a lot of that
and it hasn't dented sales of Travelcards.

The London Terminals (and its awkward cousin London Thameslink) are
barely understood by normal people - I can see real benefits in such a
move, along with not treating the Underground and TOCs differently,
allowing us to remove: the variety of fare scales, the complexity of
inter-available routes (including those that are inter-available
except when they're not), everything about Farringdon, and fare
peculiarities of the TOC that thinks it isn't, LO.

Perhaps this would only be done for regional journeys, either London,
or maybe the old Network Area. This would be a bit like Paris where
suburban fares to a terminal included the 'section urbaine' of the
Metro. I don't know if they still do...

Richard.

Silent Hunter

2018-05-11 09:38:05 UTC

Post by Richard
On Thu, 10 May 2018 06:25:06 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Silent Hunter
Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

Why should I pay extra for Z1 travel I’m not going to use?

I take the point, but this happens all the time doesn't it? Any zonal
scheme, and particularly a multi-modal fare, will have a lot of that
and it hasn't dented sales of Travelcards.
The London Terminals (and its awkward cousin London Thameslink) are
barely understood by normal people - I can see real benefits in such a
move, along with not treating the Underground and TOCs differently,
allowing us to remove: the variety of fare scales, the complexity of
inter-available routes (including those that are inter-available
except when they're not), everything about Farringdon, and fare
peculiarities of the TOC that thinks it isn't, LO.
Perhaps this would only be done for regional journeys, either London,
or maybe the old Network Area. This would be a bit like Paris where
suburban fares to a terminal included the 'section urbaine' of the
Metro. I don't know if they still do...
Richard.

IIRC, the old East German railway operator sold tickets to the 'Berlin Stadtbahn', which covered Zoo, Friedrichstrasse and Ostbahnhof.

R. Mark Clayton

2018-05-11 11:14:00 UTC

Post by Richard
On Thu, 10 May 2018 06:25:06 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Silent Hunter
Couldn't we just have a single 'London Zone 1' destination valid to all
the stations, including Underground?

Why should I pay extra for Z1 travel I’m not going to use?

I take the point, but this happens all the time doesn't it? Any zonal
scheme, and particularly a multi-modal fare, will have a lot of that
and it hasn't dented sales of Travelcards.
The London Terminals (and its awkward cousin London Thameslink) are
barely understood by normal people - I can see real benefits in such a
move, along with not treating the Underground and TOCs differently,
allowing us to remove: the variety of fare scales, the complexity of
inter-available routes (including those that are inter-available
except when they're not), everything about Farringdon, and fare
peculiarities of the TOC that thinks it isn't, LO.
Perhaps this would only be done for regional journeys, either London,
or maybe the old Network Area. This would be a bit like Paris where
suburban fares to a terminal included the 'section urbaine' of the
Metro. I don't know if they still do...
Richard.

IIRC, the old East German railway operator sold tickets to the 'Berlin Stadtbahn', which covered Zoo, Friedrichstrasse and Ostbahnhof.

But none of the stations to the west...

Theo

2018-05-11 10:42:14 UTC

Post by Richard
The London Terminals (and its awkward cousin London Thameslink) are
barely understood by normal people - I can see real benefits in such a
move, along with not treating the Underground and TOCs differently,
allowing us to remove: the variety of fare scales, the complexity of
inter-available routes (including those that are inter-available
except when they're not), everything about Farringdon, and fare
peculiarities of the TOC that thinks it isn't, LO.

I can see the benefit, but there's a large number of commuters who currently
travel to a London Terminal and then walk/cycle/bus/etc from there to avoid
having to pay for the tube. If you give those people a 'free' underground
ticket, it would likely increase pressure on the tube to carry hundreds of
thousands of additional people per day.

In other words, the fares don't just have a monetary function they have a
load management function too. So the dilemma is that simplifying fares
stimulates demand which makes things even more unpleasant for users who have
no choice.

One option might be to retain London Terminals or its equivalent for season
tickets, and only day tickets have included zone 1. But it seems
increasingly seasons and day tickets are blurring together, given people on
irregular working patterns. So I'm not sure it would fully address the
problem.

Theo

c***@yahoo.co.uk

2018-05-17 14:34:13 UTC

Post by Theo
I can see the benefit, but there's a large number of commuters who currently
travel to a London Terminal and then walk/cycle/bus/etc from there to avoid
having to pay for the tube. If you give those people a 'free' underground
ticket, it would likely increase pressure on the tube to carry hundreds of
thousands of additional people per day.
In other words, the fares don't just have a monetary function they have a
load management function too. So the dilemma is that simplifying fares
stimulates demand which makes things even more unpleasant for users who have
no choice.

I understand what you say about the underground. But what is the problem with allowing people from Brighton to travel on Thameslink to St Pancras without extra charge? This must go back to when Thameslink started running. Was LU worried about loss of revenue?

On a practical note, would a Brighton to London Terminals ticket open the gates at St Pancras? The chances of getting gripped on the train between Blackfriars and St Pancras are almost zero.

John

Roland Perry

2018-05-17 15:07:19 UTC

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk

I understand what you say about the underground. But what is the
problem with allowing people from Brighton to travel on Thameslink to
St Pancras without extra charge?

Because it's possible to charge them a higher fare for the further
distance. So they do.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2018-05-17 18:07:44 UTC

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk

I understand what you say about the underground. But what is the problem
with allowing people from Brighton to travel on Thameslink to St Pancras
without extra charge? This must go back to when Thameslink started
running. Was LU worried about loss of revenue?
On a practical note, would a Brighton to London Terminals ticket open the
gates at St Pancras? The chances of getting gripped on the train between
Blackfriars and St Pancras are almost zero.

my "southern" region tickets to London Terminals don't even open the gate at
Blackfriares, where they are most certainly valid (notwithstanding the new
thread suggesting that will change)

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
John

Roland Perry

2018-05-19 13:18:15 UTC

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
On a practical note, would a Brighton to London Terminals ticket open
the gates at St Pancras? The chances of getting gripped on the train
between Blackfriars and St Pancras are almost zero.

my "southern" region tickets to London Terminals don't even open the
gate at Blackfriares, where they are most certainly valid

Valid tickets failing to open barriers (especially in London) isn't
news.

Post by tim...
(notwithstanding the new thread suggesting that will change)

Only if arriving at Blackfriars by tube, it turns out.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2018-05-19 21:45:02 UTC

my "southern" region tickets to London Terminals don't even open the gate
at Blackfriares, where they are most certainly valid

Valid tickets failing to open barriers (especially in London) isn't news.

Post by tim...
(notwithstanding the new thread suggesting that will change)

Only if arriving at Blackfriars by tube, it turns out.

where did you get that information?

Roland Perry

2018-05-20 09:18:21 UTC

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
On a practical note, would a Brighton to London Terminals ticket
open the gates at St Pancras? The chances of getting gripped on
the train between Blackfriars and St Pancras are almost zero.

my "southern" region tickets to London Terminals don't even open the
gate at Blackfriares, where they are most certainly valid

Valid tickets failing to open barriers (especially in London) isn't news.

Post by tim...
(notwithstanding the new thread suggesting that will change)

Only if arriving at Blackfriars by tube, it turns out.

where did you get that information?

In a thread here. It was reportedly a temporary easement when
London-Bridge to Blackfriars National Rail was closed for works, and
tubestituted.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2018-05-20 09:44:59 UTC

my "southern" region tickets to London Terminals don't even open the
gate at Blackfriares, where they are most certainly valid

Valid tickets failing to open barriers (especially in London) isn't news.

Post by tim...
(notwithstanding the new thread suggesting that will change)

Only if arriving at Blackfriars by tube, it turns out.

where did you get that information?

In a thread here.

I must have missed that (despite having a direct interest in the subject)

It was reportedly a temporary easement when

Post by Roland Perry
London-Bridge to Blackfriars National Rail was closed for works, and
tubestituted.

Oh yes, so it was

a little know easement

I know people who actually paid a tube fare to complete a journey because
the LB interchange was unavailable to them

tim

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2018-05-21 07:28:06 UTC

my "southern" region tickets to London Terminals don't even open the gate
at Blackfriares, where they are most certainly valid

Valid tickets failing to open barriers (especially in London) isn't news.

Post by tim...
(notwithstanding the new thread suggesting that will change)

Only if arriving at Blackfriars by tube, it turns out.

where did you get that information?

In the thread where it was discussed a few weeks ago.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

tim...

2018-05-21 08:41:44 UTC

my "southern" region tickets to London Terminals don't even open the gate
at Blackfriares, where they are most certainly valid

Valid tickets failing to open barriers (especially in London) isn't news.

Post by tim...
(notwithstanding the new thread suggesting that will change)

Only if arriving at Blackfriars by tube, it turns out.

where did you get that information?

In the thread where it was discussed a few weeks ago.

I'm sure it was less than a "few" weeks ago

and I was following that thread, because as I said, I am directly interested
in the result

so I wanted to work out how I had missed the answer

tim

Jan Mayen

2018-05-09 16:14:46 UTC

Post by Northolt Park Gates
Going through Blackfriars Station this weekend, I noticed a sign that "London Terminals tickets are no longer valid at this station from 20th May 2018".
Why?
Chris

Just gone through London Blackfriars (National Rail) and asked the question.

It seems that this refers to Blackfriars (London Underground). When they closed the route from Blackfriars to London Bridge, TFL agreed to allow travel between the two by Underground using London Terminals tickets. It this concession that is being withdrawn.

Richard

2018-05-09 19:01:09 UTC