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Tweed
2024-12-18 16:53:06 UTC
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It’s just occurred to me that my recent day trip to London was pleasingly
free of SSS announcements in both directions. Hopefully policy, but
possibly linked to the reservation system, and therefore other systems,
being out of action on both trains. There were manual announcements about
the next stop.
Marland
2024-12-18 19:08:37 UTC
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Post by Tweed
It’s just occurred to me that my recent day trip to London was pleasingly
free of SSS announcements in both directions. Hopefully policy, but
possibly linked to the reservation system, and therefore other systems,
being out of action on both trains. There were manual announcements about
the next stop.
Happened to be watching an episode of last of the Summer wine last week , a
late 1970’s episode.
One scene was set in a police station and I’m pretty sure there was a
poster with almost identical words to the now well worn announcement.
Perhaps someone came across an old one in a drawer while looking
inspiration for what has become an irritating catchphrase.
One thing that would likely curtail its use would be to expand use of the
mocking
“See it ,say it , we’ll ignore it “ version aimed at Police who despite
people giving them evidence of criminal activity such as dash cam footage
of someone crashing into their car and then driving off don’t follow it up.
Property no longer is important to them , it has to be an injury.

GH
Scott
2024-12-18 20:50:04 UTC
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Post by Marland
It’s just occurred to me that my recent day trip to London was pleasingly
free of SSS announcements in both directions. Hopefully policy, but
possibly linked to the reservation system, and therefore other systems,
being out of action on both trains. There were manual announcements about
the next stop.
Happened to be watching an episode of last of the Summer wine last week , a
late 1970’s episode.
One scene was set in a police station and I’m pretty sure there was a
poster with almost identical words to the now well worn announcement.
Perhaps someone came across an old one in a drawer while looking
inspiration for what has become an irritating catchphrase.
One thing that would likely curtail its use would be to expand use of the
mocking
“See it ,say it , we’ll ignore it “ version aimed at Police who despite
people giving them evidence of criminal activity such as dash cam footage
of someone crashing into their car and then driving off don’t follow it up.
Property no longer is important to them , it has to be an injury.
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
JMB99
2024-12-21 10:13:31 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
Rupert Moss-Eccardt
2025-01-03 17:54:01 UTC
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Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
Ulf_Kutzner
2025-01-03 18:05:17 UTC
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Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
What about British Transport Police (not competent for NI)?

Regards, ULF
Coffee
2025-01-03 22:14:56 UTC
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Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
What about British Transport Police (not competent for NI)?
MoD Plod.
Rupert Moss-Eccardt
2025-01-04 20:19:36 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
What about British Transport Police (not competent for NI)?
Not popping into police stations.
JMB99
2025-01-03 18:19:40 UTC
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Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
Obviously not going into details but he visited police stations all over
the UK (and some foreign ones). After he retired he continued working
with the police through a company he then did work for.
ColinR
2025-01-03 20:15:42 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
--
Colin
Sam Wilson
2025-01-03 22:13:00 UTC
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Post by ColinR
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
Could also have been investigating allegations of misconduct in other
forces.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Graeme Wall
2025-01-04 08:58:07 UTC
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Post by Sam Wilson
Post by ColinR
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
Could also have been investigating allegations of misconduct in other
forces.
Not likely to have been one person from one force all the time.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2025-01-04 10:31:03 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by ColinR
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
Could also have been investigating allegations of misconduct in other
forces.
I have worked with specialist officers from Scotland Yard, and whatever
SOCA is called this week, who would be seconded to investigations all
over the country. (Not just Hollywood murders).
--
Roland Perry
JMB99
2025-01-03 23:02:44 UTC
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Post by ColinR
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
There are others that operate across boundaries (including Scotland).
JMB99
2025-01-04 18:02:14 UTC
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Post by JMB99
There are others that operate across boundaries (including Scotland).
I think that because of that, he had an ART177 in his car.
Nick Finnigan
2025-01-04 09:44:13 UTC
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Post by ColinR
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
Civil Nuclear Constabulary - now also at Bacton, Easington, Garlogie and
St Fergus.
Rupert Moss-Eccardt
2025-01-04 20:24:37 UTC
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Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by ColinR
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
Civil Nuclear Constabulary - now also at Bacton, Easington, Garlogie and
St Fergus.
CNC don't generally pop into local stations.

One thing I have thought of is the NCA in executing EWAs (in the gold
old days) but I would expect more localisation than "all over the
country"
Charles Ellson
2025-01-06 05:04:58 UTC
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Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by ColinR
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
Civil Nuclear Constabulary - now also at Bacton, Easington, Garlogie and
St Fergus.
Not Northern Ireland, no "relevant nuclear sites" and it is not in
Great Britain.
[s.56 Energy Act 2004]
Charles Ellson
2025-01-06 04:58:24 UTC
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On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 20:15:42 +0000, ColinR
Post by ColinR
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
Back to vaguely on-topic .... BTP police officer? I recall they are UK
wide, as are the nuclear police (cannot recall the official name).
"31Jurisdiction
(1)A constable of the Police Force shall have all the powers and
privileges of a constable—
[........]
(g)throughout Great Britain for a purpose connected to a railway or to
anything occurring on or in relation to a railway."
[s.31 Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003]

Other legislation deals with temporary extensions of jurisdiction
either planned (e.g. mutual aid arrangements) or "per occasion" (e.g.
coming across an incident off the railway requiring police
intervention).
Charles Ellson
2025-01-06 04:50:09 UTC
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Permalink
On Fri, 03 Jan 2025 17:54:01 +0000, Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by JMB99
Post by Scott
There was an old story - possibly apocryphal - about a notice at the
charge bar at a police station in a large Scottish city in the 1970s,
showing 10 suggested replies to caution and charge. The accused was
then invited to choose the most suitable one.
Nothing would surprise me about 'large Scottish cities' after the things
an ex-police officer told me (his work took him to police stations all
over the UK).
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland. In BTC days the BTP
had a presence (just an office IMU) in Dublin as part of their
ports/ferries functions.

Forces adjacent to the Scotland/England border can have officers sworn
in both jurisdictions but there are also arrangements/protocols for
dealing with "hot pursuit" and mutual aid.
JMB99
2025-01-06 08:10:15 UTC
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Post by Charles Ellson
Forces adjacent to the Scotland/England border can have officers sworn
in both jurisdictions but there are also arrangements/protocols for
dealing with "hot pursuit" and mutual aid.
In the days of earlier (incompatible) radio systems, it was one area
where police vehicles would have two radios fitted I think. There were
others on some force boundaries like Glencoe.

Later radios could be programmed for all channels (and modulation types)
with their local ones prioritised.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-06 22:16:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Charles Ellson
Forces adjacent to the Scotland/England border can have officers sworn
in both jurisdictions but there are also arrangements/protocols for
dealing with "hot pursuit" and mutual aid.
In the days of earlier (incompatible) radio systems, it was one area
where police vehicles would have two radios fitted I think. There were
others on some force boundaries like Glencoe.
Later radios could be programmed for all channels (and modulation types)
with their local ones prioritised.
Frequency allocations before the days of trunked systems and TETRA
typically had police frequencies in Scotland used for PMR in England
and vice versa. PMR still generally requires separate radios for VHF
and UHF due to the tuning of the aerials.
Graeme Wall
2025-01-07 08:55:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by JMB99
Post by Charles Ellson
Forces adjacent to the Scotland/England border can have officers sworn
in both jurisdictions but there are also arrangements/protocols for
dealing with "hot pursuit" and mutual aid.
In the days of earlier (incompatible) radio systems, it was one area
where police vehicles would have two radios fitted I think. There were
others on some force boundaries like Glencoe.
Later radios could be programmed for all channels (and modulation types)
with their local ones prioritised.
Frequency allocations before the days of trunked systems and TETRA
typically had police frequencies in Scotland used for PMR in England
and vice versa. PMR still generally requires separate radios for VHF
and UHF due to the tuning of the aerials.
I can remember when police were still using the VHF broadcast bands for
mobile comms. Followed, vicariously, several pursuits down the M3 while
trying to listen to Week Ending or whatever.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-01-07 09:23:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 08:55:05 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Frequency allocations before the days of trunked systems and TETRA
typically had police frequencies in Scotland used for PMR in England
and vice versa. PMR still generally requires separate radios for VHF
and UHF due to the tuning of the aerials.
I can remember when police were still using the VHF broadcast bands for
mobile comms. Followed, vicariously, several pursuits down the M3 while
trying to listen to Week Ending or whatever.
Wasn't there some comical legislation that made it technically illegal to
listen to plod on the FM band? Which clearly would prevent any crims doing
so.

I had a trunk tracker scanner that I set up to follow the Met when they used
the - iirc motorola - system. Could spend an enjoyable half hour listening
to the goings on in the local area. Still got the scanner but its pretty
much a useless brick now as almost all voice comms are digital these days.
Marland
2025-01-07 09:34:51 UTC
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Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 08:55:05 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Frequency allocations before the days of trunked systems and TETRA
typically had police frequencies in Scotland used for PMR in England
and vice versa. PMR still generally requires separate radios for VHF
and UHF due to the tuning of the aerials.
I can remember when police were still using the VHF broadcast bands for
mobile comms. Followed, vicariously, several pursuits down the M3 while
trying to listen to Week Ending or whatever.
Wasn't there some comical legislation that made it technically illegal to
listen to plod on the FM band? Which clearly would prevent any crims doing
so.
I had a trunk tracker scanner that I set up to follow the Met when they used
the - iirc motorola - system. Could spend an enjoyable half hour listening
to the goings on in the local area. Still got the scanner but its pretty
much a useless brick now as almost all voice comms are digital these days.
I can remember the look of surprise when a drinking in the pub acquaintance
who was a Hampshire Police officer mentioned they had gone to UHF for their
local comms and that people would not be able to listen in. “Yes “, I said
, “ I hear you call the UHF yellow top and the VhF red top. (may have been
the other way round) . “Where did you hear that?” he enquired , “On the
realistic scanner I purchased in Tandy a couple of months ago “ I replied.


Oh shit was his response.

GH
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-01-07 10:24:57 UTC
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Permalink
On 7 Jan 2025 09:34:51 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
I had a trunk tracker scanner that I set up to follow the Met when they used
the - iirc motorola - system. Could spend an enjoyable half hour listening
to the goings on in the local area. Still got the scanner but its pretty
much a useless brick now as almost all voice comms are digital these days.
I can remember the look of surprise when a drinking in the pub acquaintance
who was a Hampshire Police officer mentioned they had gone to UHF for their
local comms and that people would not be able to listen in. “Yes “, I said
, “ I hear you call the UHF yellow top and the VhF red top. (may have been
the other way round) . “Where did you hear that?” he enquired , “On the
realistic scanner I purchased in Tandy a couple of months ago “ I replied.
Oh shit was his response.
Can't say I'm surprised. There's no requirement for plods to be radio experts
and they'd probably been told by equally ignorant management that it was secure.
Trunking certainly makes it harder to follow the conversation if you just
have a normal scanner but from what I remember it only took 10 mins or so
to program mine to the mets trunking channels though I suspect doing so could
well be beyond the limited IQ of your average criminal though not the
masterminds.
JMB99
2025-01-07 10:39:16 UTC
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Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Can't say I'm surprised. There's no requirement for plods to be radio experts
and they'd probably been told by equally ignorant management that it was secure.
Trunking certainly makes it harder to follow the conversation if you just
have a normal scanner but from what I remember it only took 10 mins or so
to program mine to the mets trunking channels though I suspect doing so could
well be beyond the limited IQ of your average criminal though not the
masterminds.
The radio techies had a scanner in their workshop, I was told of them
listening to a very senior officer (possibly even CC) talking to someone
on the VHF Network then realising that it was not secure, said they had
better switch to the phone. But this was in the days of analogue mobile
phone so they just followed him on the scanner.

The UHF PR network could be linked to the normal VHF main set. I was
told of one plod on PR swearing like the proverbial trooper and someone
coming on to remind him that it was on 'talkthrough' so would be heard
by anyone on their main sets.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-01-07 11:32:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 10:39:16 +0000
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Can't say I'm surprised. There's no requirement for plods to be radio experts
and they'd probably been told by equally ignorant management that it was
secure.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Trunking certainly makes it harder to follow the conversation if you just
have a normal scanner but from what I remember it only took 10 mins or so
to program mine to the mets trunking channels though I suspect doing so could
well be beyond the limited IQ of your average criminal though not the
masterminds.
The radio techies had a scanner in their workshop, I was told of them
listening to a very senior officer (possibly even CC) talking to someone
on the VHF Network then realising that it was not secure, said they had
better switch to the phone. But this was in the days of analogue mobile
phone so they just followed him on the scanner.
The UHF PR network could be linked to the normal VHF main set. I was
told of one plod on PR swearing like the proverbial trooper and someone
coming on to remind him that it was on 'talkthrough' so would be heard
by anyone on their main sets.
On a related note, there was some looped broadcast somewhere in the 300Mhz
region back in the day that I presume was some kind of talkback channel for
the BBC or ITV (I forget which). Anyway, the loop consistent of some bloke
giving out some info plus a phone number to call it you're recieving the
transmission. So I called it and said yes, I was receiving it. Lots of
mumbled umms and errs at the other end saying it wasn't meant for the public
to listen to, but he was pretty good about it and we had a geeky chat about
radio for a few minutes.
Marland
2025-01-07 14:39:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 10:39:16 +0000
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Can't say I'm surprised. There's no requirement for plods to be radio experts
and they'd probably been told by equally ignorant management that it was
secure.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Trunking certainly makes it harder to follow the conversation if you just
have a normal scanner but from what I remember it only took 10 mins or so
to program mine to the mets trunking channels though I suspect doing so could
well be beyond the limited IQ of your average criminal though not the
masterminds.
The radio techies had a scanner in their workshop, I was told of them
listening to a very senior officer (possibly even CC) talking to someone
on the VHF Network then realising that it was not secure, said they had
better switch to the phone. But this was in the days of analogue mobile
phone so they just followed him on the scanner.
The UHF PR network could be linked to the normal VHF main set. I was
told of one plod on PR swearing like the proverbial trooper and someone
coming on to remind him that it was on 'talkthrough' so would be heard
by anyone on their main sets.
On a related note, there was some looped broadcast somewhere in the 300Mhz
region back in the day that I presume was some kind of talkback channel for
the BBC or ITV (I forget which). Anyway, the loop consistent of some bloke
giving out some info plus a phone number to call it you're recieving the
transmission. So I called it and said yes, I was receiving it. Lots of
mumbled umms and errs at the other end saying it wasn't meant for the public
to listen to, but he was pretty good about it and we had a geeky chat about
radio for a few minutes.
Fairly sure I came across a transmission from the BBC that announced it was
an experiment to provide traffic information but ICBW. In the end I don’t
think they proceeded with it but a separate enterprise called Trafficmaster
was set up that did. Many will remember their cameras along major routes
painted blue so people were not supposed to think they were for law
enforcement, always thought blue was a strange choice as it has long been
the colour associated with the rozzers.
I had an accessory that attached to Tom Tom satnav that enabled it to
display congestion on the screen, worked well in some areas but bad in
others. I think it has long closed down killed by mobile apps like Waze. I
wonder if they ever got their investment in setting up the network back .

GH
Graeme Wall
2025-01-07 15:33:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 10:39:16 +0000
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Can't say I'm surprised. There's no requirement for plods to be radio experts
and they'd probably been told by equally ignorant management that it was
secure.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Trunking certainly makes it harder to follow the conversation if you just
have a normal scanner but from what I remember it only took 10 mins or so
to program mine to the mets trunking channels though I suspect doing so could
well be beyond the limited IQ of your average criminal though not the
masterminds.
The radio techies had a scanner in their workshop, I was told of them
listening to a very senior officer (possibly even CC) talking to someone
on the VHF Network then realising that it was not secure, said they had
better switch to the phone. But this was in the days of analogue mobile
phone so they just followed him on the scanner.
The UHF PR network could be linked to the normal VHF main set. I was
told of one plod on PR swearing like the proverbial trooper and someone
coming on to remind him that it was on 'talkthrough' so would be heard
by anyone on their main sets.
On a related note, there was some looped broadcast somewhere in the 300Mhz
region back in the day that I presume was some kind of talkback channel for
the BBC or ITV (I forget which). Anyway, the loop consistent of some bloke
giving out some info plus a phone number to call it you're recieving the
transmission. So I called it and said yes, I was receiving it. Lots of
mumbled umms and errs at the other end saying it wasn't meant for the public
to listen to, but he was pretty good about it and we had a geeky chat about
radio for a few minutes.
Fairly sure I came across a transmission from the BBC that announced it was
an experiment to provide traffic information but ICBW. In the end I don’t
think they proceeded with it but a separate enterprise called Trafficmaster
was set up that did. Many will remember their cameras along major routes
painted blue so people were not supposed to think they were for law
enforcement, always thought blue was a strange choice as it has long been
the colour associated with the rozzers.
I had an accessory that attached to Tom Tom satnav that enabled it to
display congestion on the screen, worked well in some areas but bad in
others. I think it has long closed down killed by mobile apps like Waze. I
wonder if they ever got their investment in setting up the network back .
When I got my first mobile phone it came with a freebee traffic
indicator, a sort of plastic cross with LEDs on the top three arms
indicating how heavy the traffic was, red, amber or green as
appropriate. I think that was linked to Trafficmaster. It used to chew
up batteries though so I gave up trying to use it.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-01-07 15:48:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 7 Jan 2025 14:39:38 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On a related note, there was some looped broadcast somewhere in the 300Mhz
region back in the day that I presume was some kind of talkback channel for
the BBC or ITV (I forget which). Anyway, the loop consistent of some bloke
giving out some info plus a phone number to call it you're recieving the
transmission. So I called it and said yes, I was receiving it. Lots of
mumbled umms and errs at the other end saying it wasn't meant for the public
to listen to, but he was pretty good about it and we had a geeky chat about
radio for a few minutes.
Fairly sure I came across a transmission from the BBC that announced it was
an experiment to provide traffic information but ICBW. In the end I don’t
think they proceeded with it but a separate enterprise called Trafficmaster
was set up that did. Many will remember their cameras along major routes
painted blue so people were not supposed to think they were for law
enforcement, always thought blue was a strange choice as it has long been
the colour associated with the rozzers.
I had an accessory that attached to Tom Tom satnav that enabled it to
display congestion on the screen, worked well in some areas but bad in
others. I think it has long closed down killed by mobile apps like Waze. I
wonder if they ever got their investment in setting up the network back .
Most new cars have realtime traffic info these days and even my old Garmin
satnav has it which picks it up via the DAB multiplexes. Given DAB is fairly
low bitrate and modern cars are always connected I imagine current RTTI is
pulled from the internet with maybe DAB as the fallback option but thats
just a guess.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-07 19:58:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 10:39:16 +0000
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Can't say I'm surprised. There's no requirement for plods to be radio experts
and they'd probably been told by equally ignorant management that it was
secure.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Trunking certainly makes it harder to follow the conversation if you just
have a normal scanner but from what I remember it only took 10 mins or so
to program mine to the mets trunking channels though I suspect doing so could
well be beyond the limited IQ of your average criminal though not the
masterminds.
The radio techies had a scanner in their workshop, I was told of them
listening to a very senior officer (possibly even CC) talking to someone
on the VHF Network then realising that it was not secure, said they had
better switch to the phone. But this was in the days of analogue mobile
phone so they just followed him on the scanner.
The UHF PR network could be linked to the normal VHF main set. I was
told of one plod on PR swearing like the proverbial trooper and someone
coming on to remind him that it was on 'talkthrough' so would be heard
by anyone on their main sets.
On a related note, there was some looped broadcast somewhere in the 300Mhz
region back in the day that I presume was some kind of talkback channel for
the BBC or ITV (I forget which). Anyway, the loop consistent of some bloke
giving out some info plus a phone number to call it you're recieving the
transmission. So I called it and said yes, I was receiving it. Lots of
mumbled umms and errs at the other end saying it wasn't meant for the public
to listen to, but he was pretty good about it and we had a geeky chat about
radio for a few minutes.
Fairly sure I came across a transmission from the BBC that announced it was
an experiment to provide traffic information but ICBW. In the end I don’t
think they proceeded with it but a separate enterprise called Trafficmaster
was set up that did. Many will remember their cameras along major routes
painted blue so people were not supposed to think they were for law
enforcement, always thought blue was a strange choice as it has long been
the colour associated with the rozzers.
I had an accessory that attached to Tom Tom satnav that enabled it to
display congestion on the screen, worked well in some areas but bad in
others. I think it has long closed down killed by mobile apps like Waze. I
wonder if they ever got their investment in setting up the network back .
I have an old Medion SatNav which used a "hidden" TMC data feed on
Virgin Radio VHF broadcasts. It now seems to be carried by Classic FM
and others - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_message_channel
JMB99
2025-01-08 00:57:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
I have an old Medion SatNav which used a "hidden" TMC data feed on
Virgin Radio VHF broadcasts. It now seems to be carried by Classic FM
and others
Who unfortunately only have limited coverage of the UK.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-01-08 08:34:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 19:58:30 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Marland
Fairly sure I came across a transmission from the BBC that announced it was
an experiment to provide traffic information but ICBW. In the end I don’t
think they proceeded with it but a separate enterprise called Trafficmaster
was set up that did. Many will remember their cameras along major routes
painted blue so people were not supposed to think they were for law
enforcement, always thought blue was a strange choice as it has long been
the colour associated with the rozzers.
I had an accessory that attached to Tom Tom satnav that enabled it to
display congestion on the screen, worked well in some areas but bad in
others. I think it has long closed down killed by mobile apps like Waze. I
wonder if they ever got their investment in setting up the network back .
I have an old Medion SatNav which used a "hidden" TMC data feed on
Virgin Radio VHF broadcasts. It now seems to be carried by Classic FM
and others - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_message_channel
Does it come with an FM antenna? Otherwise I can't imagine how it would
manage to pick up anything - RDS reception can often be iffy even on a decent
setup unless you're virtually on top of the transmitter.
Marland
2025-01-08 10:23:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 19:58:30 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Marland
I had an accessory that attached to Tom Tom satnav that enabled it to
display congestion on the screen, worked well in some areas but bad in
others. I think it has long closed down killed by mobile apps like Waze. I
wonder if they ever got their investment in setting up the network back .
I have an old Medion SatNav which used a "hidden" TMC data feed on
Virgin Radio VHF broadcasts. It now seems to be carried by Classic FM
and others - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_message_channel
Does it come with an FM antenna? Otherwise I can't imagine how it would
manage to pick up anything - RDS reception can often be iffy even on a decent
setup unless you're virtually on top of the transmitter.
The version I had was basically a long cabe presumably the antenna with a
couple of suction pads to hold it place on the screen, the other end
plugged into the proprietary Tom Tom mount via a USB mini A plug , there
was a lump with some gubbins in it at that end but it needed the right
model of Sat NaV to work.
I detest cables stuck to screens and dangling across dashboards so in truth
I didn’t use it much.

Reading up it looks as if it may still work ,or it might have stopped in
2023.
Irrelevant now as the units battery has gone and it is long out of date
anyway.
Waze does the job now.

GH
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-01-08 10:41:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 8 Jan 2025 10:23:46 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 19:58:30 +0000
Does it come with an FM antenna? Otherwise I can't imagine how it would
manage to pick up anything - RDS reception can often be iffy even on a
decent
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
setup unless you're virtually on top of the transmitter.
The version I had was basically a long cabe presumably the antenna with a
couple of suction pads to hold it place on the screen, the other end
Yes, I guess the power cable would work but of course as you say, that means
you have to have the cable always there which isn't ideal.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Reading up it looks as if it may still work ,or it might have stopped in
2023.
Irrelevant now as the units battery has gone and it is long out of date
anyway.
Waze does the job now.
I've had a TomTom and a Garmin and both batteries died within a couple of
years so they ended up being run off the 12V in the end. Bloody annoying.
Luckily my new car has built in satnav.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-09 02:48:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 19:58:30 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Marland
Fairly sure I came across a transmission from the BBC that announced it was
an experiment to provide traffic information but ICBW. In the end I don?
think they proceeded with it but a separate enterprise called Trafficmaster
was set up that did. Many will remember their cameras along major routes
painted blue so people were not supposed to think they were for law
enforcement, always thought blue was a strange choice as it has long been
the colour associated with the rozzers.
I had an accessory that attached to Tom Tom satnav that enabled it to
display congestion on the screen, worked well in some areas but bad in
others. I think it has long closed down killed by mobile apps like Waze. I
wonder if they ever got their investment in setting up the network back .
I have an old Medion SatNav which used a "hidden" TMC data feed on
Virgin Radio VHF broadcasts. It now seems to be carried by Classic FM
and others - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_message_channel
Does it come with an FM antenna? Otherwise I can't imagine how it would
manage to pick up anything - RDS reception can often be iffy even on a decent
setup unless you're virtually on top of the transmitter.
The aerial function was presumably performed by the power lead,
similar to mobile 'phones using headphone leads as a VHF aerial. There
was a connector on the back for an external aerial but it worked OK
without it.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-07 19:50:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 08:55:05 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Frequency allocations before the days of trunked systems and TETRA
typically had police frequencies in Scotland used for PMR in England
and vice versa. PMR still generally requires separate radios for VHF
and UHF due to the tuning of the aerials.
I can remember when police were still using the VHF broadcast bands for
mobile comms. Followed, vicariously, several pursuits down the M3 while
trying to listen to Week Ending or whatever.
Wasn't there some comical legislation that made it technically illegal to
listen to plod on the FM band? Which clearly would prevent any crims doing
so.
The same legislation still exists. You need a licence for radio
communications either in individual form as used for communications
and television broadcasts or in legislated form as applies to radio
broadcasts. The only time I recall anyone being done for not having a
licence for listening to PMR was when it was in combination with other
criminality or someone had made a nuisance of themselves; ISTR someone
being done years ago because the local fire brigade kept seeing them
at suspicious fires and they were originally pulled in on suspicion of
arson.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
I had a trunk tracker scanner that I set up to follow the Met when they used
the - iirc motorola - system. Could spend an enjoyable half hour listening
to the goings on in the local area. Still got the scanner but its pretty
much a useless brick now as almost all voice comms are digital these days.
Sam Wilson
2025-01-07 18:10:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by JMB99
Post by Charles Ellson
Forces adjacent to the Scotland/England border can have officers sworn
in both jurisdictions but there are also arrangements/protocols for
dealing with "hot pursuit" and mutual aid.
In the days of earlier (incompatible) radio systems, it was one area
where police vehicles would have two radios fitted I think. There were
others on some force boundaries like Glencoe.
Later radios could be programmed for all channels (and modulation types)
with their local ones prioritised.
Frequency allocations before the days of trunked systems and TETRA
typically had police frequencies in Scotland used for PMR in England
and vice versa. PMR still generally requires separate radios for VHF
and UHF due to the tuning of the aerials.
I can remember when police were still using the VHF broadcast bands for
mobile comms. Followed, vicariously, several pursuits down the M3 while
trying to listen to Week Ending or whatever.
It was up the top end of the FM band on our domestic portable radio, or at
least one channel was - you could hear one side of the conversation.
Allegedly it was illegal to listen in - there were apocryphal stories of a
garage mechanic turning up at the sites of car crashes to pick up the
pieces without being informed, who was done for eavesdropping on the police
reporting the incidents.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
JMB99
2025-01-08 00:55:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
It was up the top end of the FM band on our domestic portable radio, or at
least one channel was - you could hear one side of the conversation.
Allegedly it was illegal to listen in - there were apocryphal stories of a
garage mechanic turning up at the sites of car crashes to pick up the
pieces without being informed, who was done for eavesdropping on the police
reporting the incidents.
You are only licensed to listen to broadcast services and Standard
Frequency Services. Anything else is illegal.
It is possible to get a licence to receive other services, usually by
engineers working on them, but few bother.

Years ago I monitored the aircraft band after a request from the police,
strictly speaking it was illegal but I had been verbally requested to do
so by the predecessor of OFCOM and NATS.

Same applies to Marine Band but many listen to it and there is no
problem passing details of a distress call or similar.
Marland
2025-01-08 09:44:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
You are only licensed to listen to broadcast services and Standard
Frequency Services. Anything else is illegal.
It is possible to get a licence to receive other services, usually by
engineers working on them, but few bother.
Years ago I monitored the aircraft band after a request from the police,
strictly speaking it was illegal but I had been verbally requested to do
so by the predecessor of OFCOM and NATS.
Same applies to Marine Band but many listen to it and there is no
problem passing details of a distress call or similar.
Marine band is pretty innocuous now to listen to though there are some
channels that are
allocated for “private” use by people like tug companies that a basic set
may not receive off the shelf but they would just be about them going
around their business.
Go back before the mid 90’s then shore stations such as Niton Radio still
handled link calls from the telephone network to vessels, commercial
operations were well aware that anyone listening in could hear information
in the clear but leisure sailors and callers to them often just carried on
as if no one
could, some of the conversations even the News of the World would not have
been able to publish.

GH
JMB99
2025-01-08 10:20:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Go back before the mid 90’s then shore stations such as Niton Radio still
handled link calls from the telephone network to vessels, commercial
operations were well aware that anyone listening in could hear information
in the clear but leisure sailors and callers to them often just carried on
as if no one
could, some of the conversations even the News of the World would not have
been able to publish.
I remember in the very early days of mobile phones, he heard someone on
the motorway calling his father.

He was bragging about his new toy with "can you guess where I am?" then
said he was in the 'fast lane' of the M5.

His father said something like "so it is a radio and anyone can listen
to you" and he answered "no, it is a telephone"!
ColinR
2025-01-08 12:33:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Go back before the mid 90’s then shore stations such as Niton Radio still
handled link calls from the telephone network to vessels, commercial
operations were well aware that anyone listening in could hear information
in the clear but leisure sailors and callers to them often just carried on
as if no one
could, some of the conversations even the News of the World would not have
been able to publish.
Well off topic, but I recall a very windy night on a cross channel
ferry. Got a call from Niton Radio with a request to link a phone call
to a passenger on board. I did not wish to use the PA to wake everyone,
but the night steward luckily was able to find the gentleman and brought
him to the bridge.

There was a problem with Niton getting the call made - the passenger was
getting frantic because the number was his home and he was worried what
the problem with his wife was. At the same time he was desperately
trying not to be sea-sick (even I was having problems that night, very
lumpy).

Eventually the call was made and the wife said ever so sweetly "I just
wanted to call to say I love you". I suspect murder was on the
passenger's thoughts at that point!
--
Colin
JMB99
2025-01-08 15:49:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ColinR
Well off topic, but I recall a very windy night on a cross channel
ferry. Got a call from Niton Radio with a request to link a phone call
to a passenger on board. I did not wish to use the PA to wake everyone,
but the night steward luckily was able to find the gentleman and brought
him to the bridge.
We had a call from the IBA (or whatever they were calling themselves
that week). Their transmitter on Mull had just gone off and their
maintenance team had left site on their way home. No mobile phone or
even pager of course.

Fortunately I knew the EiC of Oban Radio and rang him, Oban Radio were
not officially on VHF at that time but had a marine band transceiver
given to them when the TAT-1 cable was being laid, so he called up the
Calmac ferry on that and got the message to the maintenance team to go
back to site.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-09 02:51:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Sam Wilson
It was up the top end of the FM band on our domestic portable radio, or at
least one channel was - you could hear one side of the conversation.
Allegedly it was illegal to listen in - there were apocryphal stories of a
garage mechanic turning up at the sites of car crashes to pick up the
pieces without being informed, who was done for eavesdropping on the police
reporting the incidents.
You are only licensed to listen to broadcast services and Standard
Frequency Services. Anything else is illegal.
It is possible to get a licence to receive other services, usually by
engineers working on them, but few bother.
Years ago I monitored the aircraft band after a request from the police,
strictly speaking it was illegal but I had been verbally requested to do
so by the predecessor of OFCOM and NATS.
Same applies to Marine Band but many listen to it and there is no
problem passing details of a distress call or similar.
The aircraft band is a broadcast band. It is deliberately not
restricted to the parties immediately involved in a communication for
safety reasons.
JMB99
2025-01-09 07:28:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
The aircraft band is a broadcast band. It is deliberately not
restricted to the parties immediately involved in a communication for
safety reasons.
Part of the aircraft band is (was?) in the Band II broadcast band but
not all the aircraft band is there.

117.975 – 137.000 MHz - you will not find many broadcast stations there

The military also use UHF.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-11 01:12:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Charles Ellson
The aircraft band is a broadcast band. It is deliberately not
restricted to the parties immediately involved in a communication for
safety reasons.
Part of the aircraft band is (was?) in the Band II broadcast band but
not all the aircraft band is there.
117.975 – 137.000 MHz - you will not find many broadcast stations there
Wrong context. A "broadcast" transmission is not inevitably an
entertainment/news transmission; it is one intentionally made without
restriction (technical or legal) on who can receive it unless a more
specific meaning is ascribed to it in particular circumstances.
Broadcasting sounds or images for general reception is not permitted
in that band except when they are broadcast signals of any type in
connection with navigation or securing safety (e.g. VOLMET and
similar).
Post by JMB99
The military also use UHF.
Sam Wilson
2025-01-09 09:51:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Sam Wilson
It was up the top end of the FM band on our domestic portable radio, or at
least one channel was - you could hear one side of the conversation.
Allegedly it was illegal to listen in - there were apocryphal stories of a
garage mechanic turning up at the sites of car crashes to pick up the
pieces without being informed, who was done for eavesdropping on the police
reporting the incidents.
You are only licensed to listen to broadcast services and Standard
Frequency Services. Anything else is illegal.
It is possible to get a licence to receive other services, usually by
engineers working on them, but few bother.
Years ago I monitored the aircraft band after a request from the police,
strictly speaking it was illegal but I had been verbally requested to do
so by the predecessor of OFCOM and NATS.
Same applies to Marine Band but many listen to it and there is no
problem passing details of a distress call or similar.
Thanks. I wonder why it was possible in the 1960s to buy a domestic radio
that could receive police transmissions, alternatively why the police were
using a band that could so easily be received?

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
JMB99
2025-01-09 14:13:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Thanks. I wonder why it was possible in the 1960s to buy a domestic radio
that could receive police transmissions, alternatively why the police were
using a band that could so easily be received?
Why what did they have to hide?

The people who needed secure comms used different sets.

There was a lot of overlap between different force's coverage so a
simple trick like using an adjacent force's radio channel could be
enough to reduce the likelihood of the baddies hearing them!
Tweed
2025-01-09 14:27:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by JMB99
Post by Sam Wilson
It was up the top end of the FM band on our domestic portable radio, or at
least one channel was - you could hear one side of the conversation.
Allegedly it was illegal to listen in - there were apocryphal stories of a
garage mechanic turning up at the sites of car crashes to pick up the
pieces without being informed, who was done for eavesdropping on the police
reporting the incidents.
You are only licensed to listen to broadcast services and Standard
Frequency Services. Anything else is illegal.
It is possible to get a licence to receive other services, usually by
engineers working on them, but few bother.
Years ago I monitored the aircraft band after a request from the police,
strictly speaking it was illegal but I had been verbally requested to do
so by the predecessor of OFCOM and NATS.
Same applies to Marine Band but many listen to it and there is no
problem passing details of a distress call or similar.
Thanks. I wonder why it was possible in the 1960s to buy a domestic radio
that could receive police transmissions, alternatively why the police were
using a band that could so easily be received?
Sam
I think because most European countries licensed 88 to 108 MHz for domestic
radio, but we just licensed up to 105 MHz because the police were already
on >105 MHz. So you can see why a radio would be designed for up to 108
MHz. Eventually the police were moved off 105 to 108 MHz. I’m sure someone
will be along shortly to correct my frequency figures…
JMB99
2025-01-09 16:27:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
I think because most European countries licensed 88 to 108 MHz for domestic
radio, but we just licensed up to 105 MHz because the police were already
on >105 MHz. So you can see why a radio would be designed for up to 108
MHz. Eventually the police were moved off 105 to 108 MHz. I’m sure someone
will be along shortly to correct my frequency figures…
I have never seen a good history of the frequency allocations.
Armstrong started the use of VHF FM in the USA but initially on lower
frequencies than what we use now.

Right until the move to Airwave, England and Scotland had partly
incompatible systems.

I have mentioned before that this caused confusion when the local Bobby
near Castle Mey asked for the channel used by SB there to bee put into
his PR set!
Tweed
2025-01-09 17:08:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Tweed
I think because most European countries licensed 88 to 108 MHz for domestic
radio, but we just licensed up to 105 MHz because the police were already
on >105 MHz. So you can see why a radio would be designed for up to 108
MHz. Eventually the police were moved off 105 to 108 MHz. I’m sure someone
will be along shortly to correct my frequency figures…
I have never seen a good history of the frequency allocations.
Armstrong started the use of VHF FM in the USA but initially on lower
frequencies than what we use now.
Right until the move to Airwave, England and Scotland had partly
incompatible systems.
I have mentioned before that this caused confusion when the local Bobby
near Castle Mey asked for the channel used by SB there to bee put into
his PR set!
Correcting my own post, in 1955 when the FM band was first allocated in the
UK it was only 88 to 94.6 MHz. Then it went to 104 MHz before finally
getting up to 108 MHz.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-11 01:23:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 9 Jan 2025 09:51:47 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by JMB99
Post by Sam Wilson
It was up the top end of the FM band on our domestic portable radio, or at
least one channel was - you could hear one side of the conversation.
Allegedly it was illegal to listen in - there were apocryphal stories of a
garage mechanic turning up at the sites of car crashes to pick up the
pieces without being informed, who was done for eavesdropping on the police
reporting the incidents.
You are only licensed to listen to broadcast services and Standard
Frequency Services. Anything else is illegal.
It is possible to get a licence to receive other services, usually by
engineers working on them, but few bother.
Years ago I monitored the aircraft band after a request from the police,
strictly speaking it was illegal but I had been verbally requested to do
so by the predecessor of OFCOM and NATS.
Same applies to Marine Band but many listen to it and there is no
problem passing details of a distress call or similar.
Thanks. I wonder why it was possible in the 1960s to buy a domestic radio
that could receive police transmissions, alternatively why the police were
using a band that could so easily be received?
There was no restriction on the frequency capability of domestic radio
equipment so the manufacturers simply only altered the languages on
the labelling for diffeent markets but did nothing to the circuitry.
Any illegality lay in the use of the equipment was put to.

Other states have their own restrictions hence e.g. aircraft
enthusiasts being arrested for entering some states with
airband-capable receivers and scanners made mainly for the US market
being incapable of receiving particular frequency bands.
Ulf_Kutzner
2025-01-06 08:37:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Forces adjacent to the Scotland/England border can have officers sworn
in both jurisdictions but there are also arrangements/protocols for
dealing with "hot pursuit" and mutual aid.
Anything of the kind (maybe besides double swear)
at the Irish land border?

Regards, ULF
JMB99
2025-01-06 11:31:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Anything of the kind (maybe besides double swear)
at the Irish land border?
Extremely unlikely! Foreign (hostile?) police force and I doubt that
their comms are compatible.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-06 22:27:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Anything of the kind (maybe besides double swear)
at the Irish land border?
Extremely unlikely! Foreign (hostile?) police force and I doubt that
their comms are compatible.
TETRA has been used since about 2010 by emergency services in the
Irish Republic so the basic radios are already compatible.
JMB99
2025-01-07 08:46:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
TETRA has been used since about 2010 by emergency services in the
Irish Republic so the basic radios are already compatible.
Only if configured to be compatible and I doubt that has happened. Many
organisations use TETRA but does not mean that could use the emergency
services TETRA network.

We were supposed to be vetted even though we had no access to the
baseband traffic on Airwave, I refused.

I don't think the cow that put one Airwave site out of action had been
vetted. :-)
Charles Ellson
2025-01-07 20:20:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Charles Ellson
TETRA has been used since about 2010 by emergency services in the
Irish Republic so the basic radios are already compatible.
Only if configured to be compatible and I doubt that has happened.
Airwave software encryption installed and the correct login used.
Post by JMB99
Many
organisations use TETRA but does not mean that could use the emergency
services TETRA network.
TETRA is an open standard.
The physical emergency services network is whatever transmission path
the service providers utilise, currently provided by Airwave Solutions
(a Motorola subsidiary) for emergency services. With end-to-end
encryption that enables use of leased/rented circuits or passing via
other service providers' RF links if necessary.
Post by JMB99
We were supposed to be vetted even though we had no access to the
baseband traffic on Airwave, I refused.
I don't think the cow that put one Airwave site out of action had been
vetted. :-)
JMB99
2025-01-08 00:59:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
With end-to-end
encryption that enables use of leased/rented circuits or passing via
other service providers' RF links if necessary.
And satellite (one site went offline because a cow scratched its
backside on the satellite dish!)

Not sure about the replacement of Airwave.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-09 02:57:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JMB99
Post by Charles Ellson
With end-to-end
encryption that enables use of leased/rented circuits or passing via
other service providers' RF links if necessary.
And satellite (one site went offline because a cow scratched its
backside on the satellite dish!)
Not sure about the replacement of Airwave.
More or less a variation of the GSM telephone service if not actually
using part of that. Some of the reasons giving for the delayed
implementation sound very much like those applicable to the public GSM
services under heavy localised traffic conditions as experienced with
non-voice services near large public gatherings when data services can
cease to function.
Roland Perry
2025-01-06 13:56:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2025-01-06 16:55:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Ulf_Kutzner
2025-01-06 17:04:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
Or merged into NCA.

Regards, ULF
Charles Ellson
2025-01-06 22:47:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
Or merged into NCA.
The NCA was a new body which inherited the functions and jurisdiction
of the Serious and Organised Crime Agency.
Ulf_Kutzner
2025-01-07 07:28:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
Or merged into NCA.
The NCA was a new body which inherited the functions and jurisdiction
of the Serious and Organised Crime Agency.
And the officers and maybe secretaries?

Regards, ULF
Charles Ellson
2025-01-07 20:22:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
Or merged into NCA.
The NCA was a new body which inherited the functions and jurisdiction
of the Serious and Organised Crime Agency.
And the officers and maybe secretaries?
Mostly sitting in the same chairs in the same offices, much the same
as when a company gets a new owner.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-06 22:43:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 16:55:55 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
Graeme Wall
2025-01-07 08:57:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 16:55:55 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2025-01-08 17:47:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
It's a well known Usenet Meme M'lud. When organisations change their
name frequently, it does no harm to pull their leg about it.

On the other hand, it's a defence from some irritating troll turning up
and saying "you are fool, they changed their name last week, so you've
made a schoolboy mistake; and hence everything else you've ever posted
is lies."
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2025-01-08 18:28:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different
jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
It's a well known Usenet Meme M'lud. When organisations change their
name frequently, it does no harm to pull their leg about it.
The name changed once, 13 years ago. You re just making a fool of yourself.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-09 03:01:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 18:28:14 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
It's a well known Usenet Meme M'lud. When organisations change their
name frequently, it does no harm to pull their leg about it.
The name changed once, 13 years ago. You re just making a fool of yourself.
It wasn't just a name change, there were changes in the legal
character and functions of the organisation although it was for
practical purposes the same people continuing with an updated book of
instructions.
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 08:00:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
It's a well known Usenet Meme M'lud. When organisations change their
name frequently, it does no harm to pull their leg about it.
The name changed once, 13 years ago. You re just making a fool of yourself.
It wasn't just a name change, there were changes in the legal
character and functions of the organisation although it was for
practical purposes the same people continuing with an updated book of
instructions.
NCA was overwhelmingly SOCA, with just PCeU (stolen from the Met) and
NPIA (stolen from the College of Policing**) added.

** Or whatever *that* was called that week.
--
Roland Perry
Charles Ellson
2025-01-11 01:27:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
It's a well known Usenet Meme M'lud. When organisations change their
name frequently, it does no harm to pull their leg about it.
The name changed once, 13 years ago. You re just making a fool of yourself.
It wasn't just a name change, there were changes in the legal
character and functions of the organisation although it was for
practical purposes the same people continuing with an updated book of
instructions.
NCA was overwhelmingly SOCA, with just PCeU (stolen from the Met) and
NPIA (stolen from the College of Policing**) added.
** Or whatever *that* was called that week.
Yes, effectively the "same furniture" with a few extras grabbed from
some other offices..
Ulf_Kutzner
2025-01-09 07:15:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
It's a well known Usenet Meme M'lud. When organisations change their
name frequently, it does no harm to pull their leg about it.
The name changed once, 13 years ago. You re just making a fool of yourself.
I wouldn't agree here; it is admittible and acceptable
not to follow possible later reorganisations.

Regards, ULF
Graeme Wall
2025-01-09 16:00:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
It's a well known Usenet Meme M'lud. When organisations change their
name frequently, it does no harm to pull their leg about it.
The name changed once, 13 years ago. You re just making a fool of yourself.
I wouldn't agree here; it is admittible and acceptable
not to follow possible later reorganisations.
There aren't any as Roland knows.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2025-01-11 09:50:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts
routinely would be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary
and the BTP have no current relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and
London Police. And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
SOCA's functions and jurisdiction were inherited by the National Crime
Agency.
I am sure Roland knows that but he still insists on repeating the same
nonsense every time he feels the need to mention it.
It's a well known Usenet Meme M'lud. When organisations change their
name frequently, it does no harm to pull their leg about it.
The name changed once, 13 years ago. You re just making a fool of yourself.
I wouldn't agree here; it is admittible and acceptable
not to follow possible later reorganisations.
There aren't any as Roland knows.
There are earlier reorganisations.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2025-01-07 05:52:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the officer status
of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
Hence my use of the expression: WHATEVER IT'S CALLED THIS WEEK.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2025-01-07 08:57:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the  officer status
of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
Hence my use of the expression: WHATEVER IT'S CALLED THIS WEEK.
That was 12 years ago. And DO STOP SHOUTING.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2025-01-08 17:48:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the  officer
status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
Hence my use of the expression: WHATEVER IT'S CALLED THIS WEEK.
That was 12 years ago. And DO STOP SHOUTING.
It appeared you hadn't read those four words.
--
Roland Perry
ColinR
2025-01-08 22:13:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the  officer
status  of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
 Hence my use of the expression: WHATEVER IT'S CALLED THIS WEEK.
That was 12 years ago. And DO STOP SHOUTING.
It appeared you hadn't read those four words.
Four?
--
Colin
Sam Wilson
2025-01-09 09:51:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the  officer
status  of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
 Hence my use of the expression: WHATEVER IT'S CALLED THIS WEEK.
That was 12 years ago. And DO STOP SHOUTING.
It appeared you hadn't read those four words.
Four?
Candles?

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
ColinR
2025-01-09 11:40:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the  officer
status  of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
 Hence my use of the expression: WHATEVER IT'S CALLED THIS WEEK.
That was 12 years ago. And DO STOP SHOUTING.
It appeared you hadn't read those four words.
Four?
Candles?
Sam
;-)
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 10:04:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the  officer
status  of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
 Hence my use of the expression: WHATEVER IT'S CALLED THIS WEEK.
That was 12 years ago. And DO STOP SHOUTING.
It appeared you hadn't read those four words.
Four?
Oh dear another mistake. I'm so awfully sorry and unreservedly
apologise. Hope it didn't spoil your day.

(But it does increase by another one, the apologies which some insist I
never give, so always a silver lining!).
--
Roland Perry
ColinR
2025-01-09 11:40:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the  officer
status  of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
Do try and keep up, SOCA was dissolved in 2013.
 Hence my use of the expression: WHATEVER IT'S CALLED THIS WEEK.
That was 12 years ago. And DO STOP SHOUTING.
 It appeared you hadn't read those four words.
Four?
Oh dear another mistake. I'm so awfully sorry and unreservedly
apologise. Hope it didn't spoil your day.
(But it does increase by another one, the apologies which some insist I
never give, so always a silver lining!).
;-)
Charles Ellson
2025-01-06 22:41:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces. They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another jurisdiction.
Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
Roland Perry
2025-01-07 05:54:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another jurisdiction.
What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous police
stations?
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
--
Roland Perry
Ulf_Kutzner
2025-01-07 07:50:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
It depends on what someone wants to say.

In BE:

Police are touring affected areas [...]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4733897.stm

Okay, they might have taken vans with them
but not as full as you felt free to express.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-07 20:27:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another jurisdiction.
What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous police
stations?
Because when they visit another jurisdiction, the lawfulness of their
activities and/or access to information might depend on that status.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
Very much to the point when considering whether or not a person's
activities are lawful.
Roland Perry
2025-01-08 17:50:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another jurisdiction.
What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous police
stations?
Because when they visit another jurisdiction, the lawfulness of their
activities and/or access to information might depend on that status.
Might. But it almost never does. They are very careful about that sort
of thing.
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
Very much to the point when considering whether or not a person's
activities are lawful.
Their time is so precious their bosses simply aren't going to send them
off to do something illegal. Much of the time it'll be written in
various protocols.
--
Roland Perry
Charles Ellson
2025-01-09 03:28:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another jurisdiction.
What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous police
stations?
Because when they visit another jurisdiction, the lawfulness of their
activities and/or access to information might depend on that status.
Might. But it almost never does.
It actually nearly always does. A police constable's attestation is by
defauit only valid in the jurisdiction in which he took it. To remain
a PC after crossing a border requires a reason such as e.g. hot
pursuit or formal arrangements between the forces concerned. A police
constable attested only in England and Wales is still a PC if he goes
on holiday in London or Llandudno but not if he goes on holiday to
Lurgan or Linlithgow when he losees his default powers at the relative
national boundary (adjust as appropriate for PS or PSNI). Even if
working, the same can apply if it was not deemed necessary to extend
those powers for the work concerned or if the work was outwith the
bounds of an applicable protocol or requirement.

Some of this is comparable to what caused the ad hoc powers of a BTP
constable to be amended a few years ago as there was previously a
danger that they could find themselves reduced to the powers of a
member of the general public if giving emergency assistance to a
constable in a Police Act force.
Post by Roland Perry
They are very careful about that sort of thing.
"should be" not "are"
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
Very much to the point when considering whether or not a person's
activities are lawful.
Their time is so precious their bosses simply aren't going to send them
off to do something illegal. Much of the time it'll be written in
various protocols.
Tweed
2025-01-09 07:55:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another jurisdiction.
What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous police
stations?
Because when they visit another jurisdiction, the lawfulness of their
activities and/or access to information might depend on that status.
Might. But it almost never does.
It actually nearly always does. A police constable's attestation is by
defauit only valid in the jurisdiction in which he took it. To remain
a PC after crossing a border requires a reason such as e.g. hot
pursuit or formal arrangements between the forces concerned. A police
constable attested only in England and Wales is still a PC if he goes
on holiday in London or Llandudno but not if he goes on holiday to
Lurgan or Linlithgow when he losees his default powers at the relative
national boundary (adjust as appropriate for PS or PSNI). Even if
working, the same can apply if it was not deemed necessary to extend
those powers for the work concerned or if the work was outwith the
bounds of an applicable protocol or requirement.
Some of this is comparable to what caused the ad hoc powers of a BTP
constable to be amended a few years ago as there was previously a
danger that they could find themselves reduced to the powers of a
member of the general public if giving emergency assistance to a
constable in a Police Act force.
Post by Roland Perry
They are very careful about that sort of thing.
"should be" not "are"
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
Very much to the point when considering whether or not a person's
activities are lawful.
Their time is so precious their bosses simply aren't going to send them
off to do something illegal. Much of the time it'll be written in
various protocols.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a801b37ed915d74e33f87ad/Factsheet_14b_-_Cross-border_powers.pdf

Policing and Crime Bill
Cross-border enforcement

Introduction
1. The Bill extends the cross-border powers of arrest conferred by Part 10
of the
Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (“the 1994 Act”) by giving a
constable
of a police force in a particular part of the United Kingdom power to
arrest a
person in that part who is reasonably suspected of having committed a
specified
offence in another part.

Background

2. Currently, the 1994 Act provides the police, in any of the jurisdictions
of England
and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, with a power of arrest in
relation to
offences committed in another jurisdiction where a warrant has been issued.

3. Section 137 of the 1994 Act provides that a constable from one
jurisdiction can,
without a warrant, arrest (or in the case of Scottish constables, “detain”)
a person
in a jurisdiction other than their own ‘home’ jurisdiction, as long as that
constable
has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed or
attempted in the constable’s ‘home’ jurisdiction.

4. The 1994 Act does not, however, provide for a police officer in one
jurisdiction to
arrest a person wanted in another where there is no warrant for their
arrest. This
allows suspects to evade arrest simply by crossing the boundary into
another
jurisdiction.

Solution

5. The provisions in the Bill close this gap by introducing a new
cross-border power
of arrest in urgent cases for the purpose of enabling the person to be
re-arrested
either under section 136 (where an arrest warrant is obtained) or under
section
137 of the 1994 Act where no arrest warrant is issued.

6. In particular, it gives a constable of a police force (the ‘arresting
force’), in a
particular part of the United Kingdom, the power to arrest a person in that
part
who is reasonably suspected of having committed a specified offence and is
being investigated by a police force (the ‘investigating force’) in another
part.

7. Given that the criminal law differs in each of the three jurisdictions
it is necessary
to develop a bespoke, but analogous, list of offences for each
jurisdiction. To
allow for the appropriate consultation with, and consent of, the devolved
administrations, and consultation with police forces in the three
jurisdictions, the
Bill provides for a list of offences to be specified in secondary
legislation. This
approach would also afford the flexibility to update the list in the light
of
experience and to reflect the creation of relevant new offences.

8. These offences are limited insofar as they must be tried on indictment,
and the
Secretary of State must be satisfied that it is necessary and in the
interests of
justice that the new power of arrest should apply to it. This additional
safeguard
will ensure that the Secretary of State considers whether the new power of
arrest
is appropriate and proportionate on a case by case basis for each offence.

9. The Bill also provides powers of entry and search for the purpose of
making an
arrest under Part 10 of the 1994 Act (as amended by clause 105). It applies
only
in relation to the exercise of powers of arrest in England and Wales or
Northern
Ireland, and only in respect of offences tried on indictment and certain
other
offences committed in England and Wales or Northern Ireland.

Home Office
July 2016
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 10:02:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
Very much to the point when considering whether or not a person's
activities are lawful.
Their time is so precious their bosses simply aren't going to send them
off to do something illegal. Much of the time it'll be written in
various protocols.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a801b37ed915d74e33f87ad/Factsheet_14b_-_Cross-border_powers.pdf
Policing and Crime Bill
Cross-border enforcement
Introduction
1. The Bill extends the cross-border powers of arrest conferred by Part
10 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994
It seems one of our correspondents is out of date!

However, the officers I referred to earlier were gathering/examining
intelligence/evidence, assisting investigations and so on. Not running
around with pairs of handcuffs.
--
Roland Perry
Rupert Moss-Eccardt
2025-01-09 20:41:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
Very much to the point when considering whether or not a person's
activities are lawful.
Their time is so precious their bosses simply aren't going to send them
off to do something illegal. Much of the time it'll be written in
various protocols.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a801b37ed915d74e33f87ad/Factsheet_14b_-_Cross-border_powers.pdf
Policing and Crime Bill
Cross-border enforcement
Introduction
1. The Bill extends the cross-border powers of arrest conferred by Part
10 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994
It seems one of our correspondents is out of date!
That is an explanatory note to a Bill. Can you cite the enacted statute
please?
Roland Perry
2025-01-11 09:51:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
Very much to the point when considering whether or not a person's
activities are lawful.
Their time is so precious their bosses simply aren't going to send them
off to do something illegal. Much of the time it'll be written in
various protocols.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a801b37ed915d74e33f87a
d/Factsheet_14b_-_Cross-border_powers.pdf
Policing and Crime Bill
Cross-border enforcement
Introduction
1. The Bill extends the cross-border powers of arrest conferred by
Part
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
10 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994
It seems one of our correspondents is out of date!
That is an explanatory note to a Bill. Can you cite the enacted statute
please?
Someone said it was the Policing and Crime Bill. (Or Act as it would be
now).
--
Roland Perry
Charles Ellson
2025-01-11 01:40:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 9 Jan 2025 07:55:09 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
Post by Tweed
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another jurisdiction.
What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous police
stations?
Because when they visit another jurisdiction, the lawfulness of their
activities and/or access to information might depend on that status.
Might. But it almost never does.
It actually nearly always does. A police constable's attestation is by
defauit only valid in the jurisdiction in which he took it. To remain
a PC after crossing a border requires a reason such as e.g. hot
pursuit or formal arrangements between the forces concerned. A police
constable attested only in England and Wales is still a PC if he goes
on holiday in London or Llandudno but not if he goes on holiday to
Lurgan or Linlithgow when he losees his default powers at the relative
national boundary (adjust as appropriate for PS or PSNI). Even if
working, the same can apply if it was not deemed necessary to extend
those powers for the work concerned or if the work was outwith the
bounds of an applicable protocol or requirement.
Some of this is comparable to what caused the ad hoc powers of a BTP
constable to be amended a few years ago as there was previously a
danger that they could find themselves reduced to the powers of a
member of the general public if giving emergency assistance to a
constable in a Police Act force.
Post by Roland Perry
They are very careful about that sort of thing.
"should be" not "are"
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
And I'm not sure if are being uber-pedantic about the
officer status of investigators from whatever SOCA is called this week.
The National Crime Agency which inherited the powers of SOCA so they
only have full powers in England and Wales. Their nearest Scottish
equivalent, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency was
absorbed into Police Scotland. The NCA operates in Northern Ireland
under a Memorandum of Understanding with PSNI under the oversight of
the Policing Board for Northern Ireland. In Scotland their activities
require authorisation from the Lord Advocate.
All very interesting, but beside the point.
Very much to the point when considering whether or not a person's
activities are lawful.
Their time is so precious their bosses simply aren't going to send them
off to do something illegal. Much of the time it'll be written in
various protocols.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a801b37ed915d74e33f87ad/Factsheet_14b_-_Cross-border_powers.pdf
Policing and Crime Bill
Cross-border enforcement
Introduction
1. The Bill extends the cross-border powers of arrest conferred by Part 10
of the
Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (“the 1994 Act”) by giving a
constable
of a police force in a particular part of the United Kingdom power to
arrest a
person in that part who is reasonably suspected of having committed a
specified
offence in another part.
Background
2. Currently, the 1994 Act provides the police, in any of the jurisdictions
of England
and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, with a power of arrest in
relation to
offences committed in another jurisdiction where a warrant has been issued.
3. Section 137 of the 1994 Act provides that a constable from one
jurisdiction can,
without a warrant, arrest (or in the case of Scottish constables, “detain”)
a person
in a jurisdiction other than their own ‘home’ jurisdiction, as long as that
constable
has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed or
attempted in the constable’s ‘home’ jurisdiction.
4. The 1994 Act does not, however, provide for a police officer in one
jurisdiction to
arrest a person wanted in another where there is no warrant for their
arrest. This
allows suspects to evade arrest simply by crossing the boundary into
another
jurisdiction.
Solution
5. The provisions in the Bill close this gap by introducing a new
cross-border power
of arrest in urgent cases for the purpose of enabling the person to be
re-arrested
either under section 136 (where an arrest warrant is obtained) or under
section
137 of the 1994 Act where no arrest warrant is issued.
6. In particular, it gives a constable of a police force (the ‘arresting
force’), in a
particular part of the United Kingdom, the power to arrest a person in that
part
who is reasonably suspected of having committed a specified offence and is
being investigated by a police force (the ‘investigating force’) in another
part.
7. Given that the criminal law differs in each of the three jurisdictions
it is necessary
to develop a bespoke, but analogous, list of offences for each
jurisdiction. To
allow for the appropriate consultation with, and consent of, the devolved
administrations, and consultation with police forces in the three
jurisdictions, the
Bill provides for a list of offences to be specified in secondary
legislation. This
approach would also afford the flexibility to update the list in the light
of
experience and to reflect the creation of relevant new offences.
8. These offences are limited insofar as they must be tried on indictment,
and the
Secretary of State must be satisfied that it is necessary and in the
interests of
justice that the new power of arrest should apply to it. This additional
safeguard
will ensure that the Secretary of State considers whether the new power of
arrest
is appropriate and proportionate on a case by case basis for each offence.
9. The Bill also provides powers of entry and search for the purpose of
making an
arrest under Part 10 of the 1994 Act (as amended by clause 105). It applies
only
in relation to the exercise of powers of arrest in England and Wales or
Northern
Ireland, and only in respect of offences tried on indictment and certain
other
offences committed in England and Wales or Northern Ireland.
Home Office
July 2016
That is a variation on "hot pursuit". In the prescribed circumstances
the other country will be entered with the relevant powers of a police
constable maintained but only to the extent permitted.
Also, that has been taken from a Bill; the final legislation might
have significant differences of terms and effect. Such cross-border
matters usually have protocols drawn up to prevent toes being trodden
on or fundamental mistakes fatal to the legality of any arrest/search
made in another jurisdiction.
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 09:11:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts routinely would
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another jurisdiction.
What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous police
stations?
Because when they visit another jurisdiction, the lawfulness of their
activities and/or access to information might depend on that status.
Might. But it almost never does.
It actually nearly always does. A police constable's attestation is by
defauit only valid in the jurisdiction in which he took it. To remain
a PC after crossing a border requires a reason such as e.g. hot
pursuit or formal arrangements between the forces concerned.
I find this line of reasoning preposterous. How can any national agency,
be it NCS, NCIS, SOCA, NTHCU or NCA perfom its role if its officers are
hampered in the way you describe.
Post by Charles Ellson
A police
constable attested only in England and Wales is still a PC if he goes
on holiday in London or Llandudno but not if he goes on holiday to
Lurgan or Linlithgow when he losees his default powers at the relative
national boundary (adjust as appropriate for PS or PSNI). Even if
working, the same can apply if it was not deemed necessary to extend
those powers for the work concerned or if the work was outwith the
bounds of an applicable protocol or requirement.
Some of this is comparable to what caused the ad hoc powers of a BTP
constable to be amended a few years ago as there was previously a
danger that they could find themselves reduced to the powers of a
member of the general public if giving emergency assistance to a
constable in a Police Act force.
Post by Roland Perry
They are very careful about that sort of thing.
"should be" not "are"
No, when I observed them in action they were very careful. And like I
said, why would SOCA (or anyone else) send an officer to assist a
regional force if they aren't allowed to do anything when they get
there.
--
Roland Perry
Rupert Moss-Eccardt
2025-01-09 20:38:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
22:41:34 on
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different jurisdiction
to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that would
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts
routinely would
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no current
relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and City of
London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another
jurisdiction.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous police
stations?
Because when they visit another jurisdiction, the lawfulness of their
activities and/or access to information might depend on that status.
Might. But it almost never does.
It actually nearly always does. A police constable's attestation is by
defauit only valid in the jurisdiction in which he took it. To remain
a PC after crossing a border requires a reason such as e.g. hot
pursuit or formal arrangements between the forces concerned.
Charles is, unusually, wrong. S.30 of the Police Act 1996 gives
universal jurisdiction across E&W for all those in "the 43".

Of course BTP, CNC and many other forces aren't in the 43
Post by Roland Perry
I find this line of reasoning preposterous. How can any national agency,
be it NCS, NCIS, SOCA, NTHCU or NCA perfom its role if its officers are
hampered in the way you describe.
Many of those organisations don't have Constables covered by the 1996
Act which does stop them doing certain things. But, typically others
will be able to act for them
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
A police
constable attested only in England and Wales is still a PC if he goes
on holiday in London or Llandudno but not if he goes on holiday to
Lurgan or Linlithgow when he losees his default powers at the relative
national boundary (adjust as appropriate for PS or PSNI). Even if
working, the same can apply if it was not deemed necessary to extend
those powers for the work concerned or if the work was outwith the
bounds of an applicable protocol or requirement.
Some of this is comparable to what caused the ad hoc powers of a BTP
constable to be amended a few years ago as there was previously a
danger that they could find themselves reduced to the powers of a
member of the general public if giving emergency assistance to a
constable in a Police Act force.
That adjustment was incomplete.
Charles Ellson
2025-01-11 02:08:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 20:38:55 +0000, Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
on
22:41:34 on
04:50:09 on
Post by Charles Ellson
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Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
It would surprise me, given that Scotland is a different
jurisdiction
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to England and Wales. I can't think of a policing role that
would
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Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
straddle the boundary and certainly not one that would occasion
visiting many police stations.
The only civilian force currently getting to all parts
routinely would
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be ModPlod, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the BTP have no
current
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relevant places to deal with in Northern Ireland.
Apart from specialist officers from (mainly) Scotland Yard and
City of
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London Police.
Those are individuals not the forces.
It's individuals who would be touring police stations around the
country, not the organisation. Unless you think Scotland Yard has a
furniture van full of desks and things which follows such officers
around the country.
Post by Charles Ellson
They don't inevitably have or
need the powers of a constable when working in another
jurisdiction.
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What's that got to do with whether or not they visit numerous
police
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stations?
Because when they visit another jurisdiction, the lawfulness of
their
Post by Charles Ellson
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Post by Charles Ellson
activities and/or access to information might depend on that status.
Might. But it almost never does.
It actually nearly always does. A police constable's attestation is by
defauit only valid in the jurisdiction in which he took it. To remain
a PC after crossing a border requires a reason such as e.g. hot
pursuit or formal arrangements between the forces concerned.
Charles is, unusually, wrong. S.30 of the Police Act 1996 gives
universal jurisdiction across E&W
England and Wales not the other jurisdictions of Scotland and Northern
Ireland.
<snip>
Charles Ellson
2025-01-11 01:58:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
around the country.
<snip>
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
It actually nearly always does. A police constable's attestation is by
defauit only valid in the jurisdiction in which he took it. To remain
a PC after crossing a border requires a reason such as e.g. hot
pursuit or formal arrangements between the forces concerned.
I find this line of reasoning preposterous. How can any national agency,
be it NCS, NCIS, SOCA, NTHCU or NCA perfom its role if its officers are
hampered in the way you describe.
<snip>
Different jurisdictions have different laws. A PC is naturally only
expected to be trained in the laws of his own jurisdiction. You don't
want fundamental errors such as e.g. an English PC attempting to
arrest someone he has found misbehaving in Scotland and e.g.
a) giving them the wrong caution resulting in the suspect
self-incriminating and possibly preventing a prosecution.
and /or
b)arresting them for an offence that doesn't exist in Scotland
and/or
c)failing to mention any other required information at the time of
arrest.
Roland Perry
2025-01-11 09:53:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
It actually nearly always does. A police constable's attestation is by
defauit only valid in the jurisdiction in which he took it. To remain
a PC after crossing a border requires a reason such as e.g. hot
pursuit or formal arrangements between the forces concerned.
I find this line of reasoning preposterous. How can any national agency,
be it NCS, NCIS, SOCA, NTHCU or NCA perfom its role if its officers are
hampered in the way you describe.
<snip>
Different jurisdictions have different laws. A PC is naturally only
expected to be trained in the laws of his own jurisdiction. You don't
want fundamental errors such as e.g. an English PC attempting to
arrest someone he has found misbehaving in Scotland and e.g.
a) giving them the wrong caution resulting in the suspect
self-incriminating and possibly preventing a prosecution.
and /or
b)arresting them for an offence that doesn't exist in Scotland
and/or
c)failing to mention any other required information at the time of
arrest.
All that is moot, because the National Agencies mentioned do
successfully operate in their nations. Why this red herring of
Scotland?
--
Roland Perry
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