Ravensthorpe to Mirfield - track layout and operation questions

[Pyromancer]

Mirfield to Ravensthorpe in West Yorkshire - a three track main line?

Is there anywhere on-line I can see a track diagram of the current
arrangements in this area? It has to be the oddest layout I've ever
encountered, and seems to have two westbound lines for just one
eastbound.

At Ravensthorpe, two lines from the East converge, the direct line from
Leeds via Dewsbury, and the one from Wakefield Kirkgate via Horbury and
Healy Mills Yard. Both are double-track. When they converge, as far as
I can tell, the two westbound lines remain separate for several miles
past the junction. Meanwhile, eastbound, a train can branch from the
Leeds-bound line over to the "centre road", again quite a long way
before the actual junction (so running quite a distance east on the
westbound fast line), and then finally branch off towards Horbury at the
actual junction.

This absolute minimalism in terms of points and crossings also means
that despite the three parallel tracks, it's not actually possible for a
slow train from the Leeds line to move over to the westbound slow to be
overtaken by a following express.

Is there a deeper reason for this bizarre layout, or is it just
cost-cutting? I know this area used to have the LNER speed signalling
experiment, does the current layout date from when that was replaced, or
have there been two remodellings since then?

(Diagram requires fixed-pitch font e.g. courier)

To Dewsbury
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ /
---------------\--------------------/ / Ravensthorpe Jc
----------------\====================/---------------------- To
------------------------------------------------------------ Horbury
<- To Mirfield

=== - longish section where Eastbound Horbury services effectively
run "bang road" on the Westbound Dewsbury line.

Westbound, eventually crossover from the ex-Dewsbury line to the
ex-Horbury one is possible, and I think this can be used as a loop in
the Mirfield area itself. But it seems an awfully inflexible layout
compared to what could have been built. Beyond (west of) Mirfield it
briefly becomes a 4-track layout, as the eastbound Huddersfield line
branches off for the diving junction under the Brighouse line.

To me, depending on traffic density and the desire to save track
mileage, it would have made more sense to have one of:

a) a traditional 4-track section with double-junctions at each end
b) two through lines in the centre with loops each side
c) two through tracks, one each side, with a bi-directional centre loop
accessible from either side and ideally in three places, so giving two
loops.

Note: I've only ever done this section eastbound in the dark, but
looking for crossings while going westbound in daylight that's what
appears to be there.

[Bing]

i love trains

[Roger H. Bennett]

Post by Pyromancer
This absolute minimalism in terms of points and crossings also means
that despite the three parallel tracks, it's not actually possible for a
slow train from the Leeds line to move over to the westbound slow to be
overtaken by a following express.
Is there a deeper reason for this bizarre layout, or is it just
cost-cutting? I know this area used to have the LNER speed signalling
experiment, does the current layout date from when that was replaced, or
have there been two remodellings since then?

It used to be a 4-track line throughout, paired by use. Around 1985 the
present arrangement was introduced in order to allow higher speeds over the
junction - 80 mph instead of about 40. I suspect a reduction in the number
of trains between there and Healey Mills/Wakefield made this practicable.

A few years later, as part of the plan for 3 Transpennine trains, a
westbound fast-slow crossover was provided, along with a platform on the
slow line at Mirfield, to allow westbound expresses to overtake. The
equivalent facility eastbound was provided by restoring the down though line
at Dewsbury.

Other related work further west involved upgrading the up loop at Marsden
and the down loop at Diggle, for the same purpose.

Roger

[Stevie D]

Post by Pyromancer
Mirfield to Ravensthorpe in West Yorkshire - a three track main line?
Is there anywhere on-line I can see a track diagram of the current
arrangements in this area? It has to be the oddest layout I've ever
encountered, and seems to have two westbound lines for just one
eastbound.

Approximation from Quail 1998:

.->---.
Brighouse / \ Leeds
->-------------->-----`->------1------------>-.------------->-
-<------------,-<--.----<-. ###### ,----,-<--`---.--------<-
/ / \ `---2----' / \
/ / `--<------3--------'---<------. '------>-
/ / ###### '-------<-
->------' / Mirfield Wakefield
-<-------'
Huddersfield

It's not that unusual to have 2 lines in one direction and one in the
other. Huntingdon to Connington is 1up/2down. The line from
Peterborough to Helpston is more complex but has 2+3 lines. ECML near
Grantham and Retford has 3-track sections, as does Skipton.

Post by Pyromancer
At Ravensthorpe, two lines from the East converge, the direct line from
Leeds via Dewsbury, and the one from Wakefield Kirkgate via Horbury and
Healy Mills Yard. Both are double-track. When they converge, as far as
I can tell, the two westbound lines remain separate for several miles
past the junction. Meanwhile, eastbound, a train can branch from the
Leeds-bound line over to the "centre road", again quite a long way
before the actual junction (so running quite a distance east on the
westbound fast line), and then finally branch off towards Horbury at the
actual junction.

The bidi section allowing trains to access the line to Wakefield is
about half a mile long.

Post by Pyromancer
This absolute minimalism in terms of points and crossings also means
that despite the three parallel tracks, it's not actually possible for a
slow train from the Leeds line to move over to the westbound slow to be
overtaken by a following express.

According to this, westbound trains from Leeds can run through either
platform road 2 or 3, so a stopping train could use p3 and allow a
fast train to overtake.

[Tim Bray]

Post by Stevie D
According to this, westbound trains from Leeds can run through either
platform road 2 or 3, so a stopping train could use p3 and allow a
fast train to overtake.

I've been on a couple of wakefield to huddersfield services where a
leeds huddersfield has overtaken as we went down the 3 track section.

Not strictly overtaking though.

Tim

[Mike Roebuck]

Post by Tim Bray

Post by Stevie D
According to this, westbound trains from Leeds can run through either
platform road 2 or 3, so a stopping train could use p3 and allow a
fast train to overtake.

I've been on a couple of wakefield to huddersfield services where a
leeds huddersfield has overtaken as we went down the 3 track section.
Not strictly overtaking though.

The XX25 TPE's from Leeds are booked to overtake the preceding Leeds -
Huddersfield stopper on the 3-track section. I've also been on TPE
trains which have overtaken the Wakefield - Huddersfield service
there.

Eastbound overtaking moves at Dewsbury appear to me to be less common,
for some reason.

[Pyromancer]

Post by Mike Roebuck
The XX25 TPE's from Leeds are booked to overtake the preceding Leeds -
Huddersfield stopper on the 3-track section.

I didn't realise that. Last Saturday, the 17:13 via Brighouse, which
is supposed to follow a TPX, was allowed out of Leeds (P17) first while
they had fun attempting to couple the 158s together in P16. I was
wondering when/if they'd be able to overtake as we progressed
gracefully along, stopping everywhere and feeling the gradient. The
train was wedged to Dewsbury, though about half empty from there.

I think the 158s finally passed us as we were stopped at Mirfield P3,
but it seemed an awful long way to have an express stuck behind us.

Post by Mike Roebuck
I've also been on TPE
trains which have overtaken the Wakefield - Huddersfield service
there.

I've done that a few times, usually before the first crossover is
reached.

Post by Mike Roebuck
Eastbound overtaking moves at Dewsbury appear to me to be less common,
for some reason.

I've never seen a train take the centre road there, though something
must do so regularly as the rails are shiny.

[John Salmon]

"Pyromancer" wrote

[re Eastbound overtaking moves at Dewsbury]

Post by Pyromancer
I've never seen a train take the centre road there, though something
must do so regularly as the rails are shiny.

Down (eastbound) trains not stopping at Dewsbury use it, whether overtaking
or not, don't they?

[James Taylor]

Post by Pyromancer
I've never seen a train take the centre road there, though something
must do so regularly as the rails are shiny.

The two TPX 'fasts' that don't stop at Dewsbury - xx15 and xx47 from
Huddersfield (to Hull and Scarborough) use the centre line through.

The Northern stoppers always used to get looped here until December,
now it goes straight through sometimes causing hassle if its running
late. The only stoppers I know for certain that still get looped here
are peak runs - these can be seen in the NRT as they show an arrival
time as a footnote - due to the fact they are timetables roughly a 5
minute wait in Dewsbury while the express passes.

[Mike Roebuck]

Post by James Taylor

Post by Pyromancer
I've never seen a train take the centre road there, though something
must do so regularly as the rails are shiny.

The two TPX 'fasts' that don't stop at Dewsbury - xx15 and xx47 from
Huddersfield (to Hull and Scarborough) use the centre line through.

That's correct. Two out of the four hourly eastbound TPE's don't stop,
and take the middle road.

Post by James Taylor
The Northern stoppers always used to get looped here until December,
now it goes straight through sometimes causing hassle if its running
late.

I'm not sure that's correct. I've been using Dewsbury station
regularly for the last four years, stoppers and TPE's alike, and have
only very rarely seen a stopper overtaken by a TPE there.

Post by James Taylor
The only stoppers I know for certain that still get looped here
are peak runs - these can be seen in the NRT as they show an arrival
time as a footnote - due to the fact they are timetables roughly a 5
minute wait in Dewsbury while the express passes.

There's no footnote, but the WYPTE composite timetable for
Huddersfield - Leeds shows two examples only of that in the morning
peak.

[Chris Tolley]

Post by Stevie D

Post by Pyromancer
Mirfield to Ravensthorpe in West Yorkshire - a three track main line?
Is there anywhere on-line I can see a track diagram of the current
arrangements in this area? It has to be the oddest layout I've ever
encountered, and seems to have two westbound lines for just one
eastbound.

.->---.
Brighouse / \ Leeds
->-------------->-----`->------1------------>-.------------->-
-<------------,-<--.----<-. ###### ,----,-<--`---.--------<-
/ / \ `---2----' / \
/ / `--<------3--------'---<------. '------>-
/ / ###### '-------<-
->------' / Mirfield Wakefield
-<-------'
Huddersfield

The above (I know it's only schematic, this isn't a criticism, just
extra info) suggests that Mirfield Platform 3 is alongside the island
1/2. In fact they are staggered and there is no overlap; they are
actually on opposite sides of Station Road (or Bridge MVN2-193 if you
prefer). Mirfield 3 is nearer Wakefield.

[Pyromancer]

Post by Chris Tolley
The above (I know it's only schematic, this isn't a criticism, just
extra info) suggests that Mirfield Platform 3 is alongside the island
1/2. In fact they are staggered and there is no overlap; they are
actually on opposite sides of Station Road (or Bridge MVN2-193 if you
prefer). Mirfield 3 is nearer Wakefield.

I visited Mirfield by road once to have a look round the station - not
a place you'd ever want to do a tight connection, it's a longish way to
run from P3 to the P1/2!

Is anything booked to stop at P2, all the times I've seen or been on an
eastbound train stopped there has been on P1, AFAICR

[Pyromancer]

Post by Stevie D
.->---.
Brighouse / \ Leeds
->-------------->-----`->------1------------>-.------------->-
-<------------,-<--.----<-. ###### ,----,-<--`---.--------<-
/ / \ `---2----' / \
/ / `--<------3--------'---<------. '------>-
/ / ###### '-------<-
->------' / Mirfield Wakefield
-<-------'
Huddersfield

Thanks for that - brilliant! It kind of makes sense now, though the
traditionalist in me still thinks a junction doesn't look "right"
unless it's a traditional layout, I can see how this kind of thing
gives significantly higher speeds in a case like this. I also keep
forgetting to think of the Dewsbury loop as part of the arrangements,
again, it makes a lot more sense once that's included.

I'll be keeping a copy of your diagram, very clear.

Cheers!

[matt]

Post by Pyromancer

Post by Stevie D
.->---.
Brighouse / \ Leeds
->-------------->-----`->------1------------>-.------------->-
-<------------,-<--.----<-. ###### ,----,-<--`---.--------<-
/ / \ `---2----' / \
/ / `--<------3--------'---<------. '------>-
/ / ###### '-------<-
->------' / Mirfield Wakefield
-<-------'
Huddersfield

Thanks for that - brilliant! It kind of makes sense now, though the
traditionalist in me still thinks a junction doesn't look "right"
unless it's a traditional layout, I can see how this kind of thing
gives significantly higher speeds in a case like this. I also keep
forgetting to think of the Dewsbury loop as part of the arrangements,
again, it makes a lot more sense once that's included.
I'll be keeping a copy of your diagram, very clear.

You'll notice that the burrowing junction (travelling from Huddrsfield
to Leeds) used to be double track. IIRC, it's because the Leeds New Line
used to diverge from there, so the "burrow" was actually built for that,
but was subsequently retained and used for eastbound trains.

[James Taylor]

Also of interest, as you pass between Ravensthorpe - Dewsbury (heading
towards Leeds) on your left you pass a river, on the side of which
there is a road with a 4 aspect signal stood!

[Pyromancer]

Post by James Taylor
Also of interest, as you pass between Ravensthorpe - Dewsbury (heading
towards Leeds) on your left you pass a river, on the side of which
there is a road with a 4 aspect signal stood!

There's an abandoned route crosses the river and passes under the
Dewsbury line about there, I think it's the remains of the "Spen Valley
Line" though that may well be wrong. That part of it is now a
psyclepath, though that diverts to the canal towpath shortly after
going under the in-use railway. Very nice, though somewhat steeply
graded (for a railway) bridge over the river.

[Mike Roebuck]

Post by Pyromancer

Post by James Taylor
Also of interest, as you pass between Ravensthorpe - Dewsbury (heading
towards Leeds) on your left you pass a river, on the side of which
there is a road with a 4 aspect signal stood!

There's an abandoned route crosses the river and passes under the
Dewsbury line about there, I think it's the remains of the "Spen Valley
Line" though that may well be wrong. That part of it is now a
psyclepath, though that diverts to the canal towpath shortly after
going under the in-use railway. Very nice, though somewhat steeply
graded (for a railway) bridge over the river.

That's correct. It's now the Spen Valley Greenway (Sustrans). There's
another dead 3-aspect signal further along towards Heckmondwike, which
is slowly vanishing between trees and plants.

[Pyromancer]

Post by matt

Post by Stevie D
.->---.
Brighouse / \ Leeds
->-------------->-----`->------1------------>-.------------->-
-<------------,-<--.----<-. ###### ,----,-<--`---.--------<-
/ / \ `---2----' / \
/ / `--<------3--------'---<------. '------>-
/ / ###### '-------<-
->------' / Mirfield Wakefield
-<-------'
Huddersfield

You'll notice that the burrowing junction (travelling from Huddrsfield
to Leeds) used to be double track. IIRC, it's because the Leeds New Line
used to diverge from there, so the "burrow" was actually built for that,
but was subsequently retained and used for eastbound trains.

Which brings up a whole new subject (the LNL), though I'll start a
seperate thread for that, as I've quite a few questions on the subject.
Cheers!