Chiltern Railways Mainline 'Business Zone' (not First Class!)

[Chafford]

Chiltern railways have started to advertise their faster Birmingham
services from September, including their new 'Business Zone' service,
which despite Chiltern's denial, looks very much like First Class (see
below).

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/mainline


'In the Business Zone we have created the ideal working environment.
You can enjoy larger tables and seats that are not only wider, but
also have more legroom than any other train service between Birmingham
and London.

Passengers in the Business Zone are also attended to by a dedicated
train host who can provide an at-seat catering service that includes
freshly cooked bacon rolls.

All trains with a Business Zone will offer free Wi-Fi., and passengers
will be able to reserve specific seats. Business Zone access can be
purchased with your ticket or dependant on availability passengers can
upgrade onboard.

A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

On the 0837 train from London to Birmingham and the 1555 service from
Birmingham to London, the Business Zone supplement will be just £10.'

[Philip]

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[Andy Breen]

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Then it is, in this case, a Moorhen with a supplement.

[Nick Leverton]

Post by Andy Breen

Post by Philip

A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Then it is, in this case, a Moorhen with a supplement.

Are you sure it's not a Coot with a dis-easement ?

Nick

[Andy Breen]

Post by Nick Leverton

Post by Andy Breen

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Then it is, in this case, a Moorhen with a supplement.

Are you sure it's not a Coot with a dis-easement ?

You win, sir.

[Jonathan Morton]

Post by Andy Breen

Post by Nick Leverton

Post by Andy Breen

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Then it is, in this case, a Moorhen with a supplement.

Are you sure it's not a Coot with a dis-easement ?

You win, sir.

Interesting that it's not First Class, and yet...

"A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard".

That means either (a) a First Class ticket isn't valid even with a
supplement (because it only refers to standard + supplement) or (b) (more
likely) a First Class ticket is valid without a supplement - from which we
can draw our own conclusion.

Regards

Jonathan

[Neil Williams]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 20:36:55 +0100, "Jonathan Morton"

Post by Jonathan Morton
That means either (a) a First Class ticket isn't valid even with a
supplement (because it only refers to standard + supplement) or (b) (more
likely) a First Class ticket is valid without a supplement - from which we
can draw our own conclusion.

Such as? I bet it'll be called First Class within a year, as that's
what it is. Same happened to "TransPennine Premier" after not very
long.

I guess the reason they don't want to sell First Class tickets
because most trains don't have it?

Neil

[Theo Markettos]

Post by Jonathan Morton
"A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard".

That could be useful, because there's a much bigger range of standard class
tickets that first class. You could have a super-offpeak fare set by some
other TOC (eg to the North West), and essentially treat this like a 'Weekend
First' fare but on the weekend. Could work out a lot cheaper. OTOH it gets
quite expensive if you have to change lots.

It also might come in handy for business people who are used to paying per
hour for things like wifi and meeting rooms: those can be counted as
legitimate business expenses, while First is a 'luxury' and this banned.
The price makes it easier to do the calculation: one hour to work on your
presentation is worth X pounds. It also makes it easier to pay for the
upgrade out of your own pocket without having a half hour argument with
Accounts about claiming the standard rate but presenting a First receipt.

Theo

[Neil Williams]

On 13 Aug 2011 23:52:28 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos

Post by Theo Markettos
Accounts about claiming the standard rate but presenting a First receipt.

Wouldn't it be as easy to buy a Standard ticket and immediately
excess it?

Neil

[Jeremy Double]

Wouldn't it be as easy to buy a Standard ticket and immediately excess it?

To people used to doing it, yes. But if you're not familiar with the
ins-and-outs of railway ticketing this might not even occur to you.

On the other hand, if a supplement is advertised as being available, no
special knowledge or similar is needed to think that this might be a good
idea.

[Neil Williams]

Wouldn't it be as easy to buy a Standard ticket and immediately excess it?

To people used to doing it, yes.  But if you're not familiar with the
ins-and-outs of railway ticketing this might not even occur to you.

True. Though I don't see why that's made so hard - a "surclassement"
is only one level down on the menu on SBB ticket machines, and it's
exactly what I do when I want to travel first class when the company
is paying - buy a standard ticket which is claimed, then a
"surclassement" to go with it which isn't.

Though SBB do charge a very slight premium for doing this, whereas the
UK system does not.

Neil

[Paul Cummins]

In article

Post by Neil Williams
Though SBB do charge a very slight premium for doing this, whereas
the UK system does not.

I misread this and thought I was still in uk.radio.amateer for a
second...

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Paul Cummins
In article

Post by Neil Williams
Though SBB do charge a very slight premium for doing this, whereas
the UK system does not.

I misread this and thought I was still in uk.radio.amateer for a
second...

SSB you mean?

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Graeme Wall
SSB you mean?

Indeed. Then realised it was CFF being referred to.

[Jeremy Double]

Post by Paul Cummins

Post by Graeme Wall
SSB you mean?

Indeed. Then realised it was CFF being referred to.

Given that over 60% of the Swiss speak German (or an approximation to it)
and only just over 20% speak French, surely SBB is the appropriate
abbreviation to use for Swiss Federal Railways? Unless you want to be
really pedantic and use SBB CFF FFS, that is...

I suppose that, on a similar basis, we ought to refer to Belgian national
railways as NMBS rather than SNCB.

[Paul Cummins]

In article

Post by Jeremy Double
Given that over 60% of the Swiss speak German (or an approximation to it)

An extremely vague approximation, IMHO as a German speaker. In Germany,
Austira, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary etc etc, I can use my
reasonable current business German and be understood, in Switzerland I
have no choice but to apologise for not speaking their language.

if you had understood the meaning of SSB, you would have understood my
joke better. Like Neil did.

[Bob]

Post by Paul Cummins
In article

Post by Jeremy Double
Given that over 60% of the Swiss speak German (or an approximation to it)

An extremely vague approximation, IMHO as a German speaker. In Germany,
Austira, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary etc etc, I can use my
reasonable current business German and be understood, in Switzerland I
have no choice but to apologise for not speaking their language.

My experience is that you are almost certain to be understood when speaking
Hochdeutsch (All schools are taught in Hochdeutsch, SF television and radio
is broadcast in it and government and legal processes are in Hochdeutsch).
The problem comes when people open their mouths to speak back to you :-)

Robin

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Bob
The problem comes when people open their mouths to speak back to you :-)

That would be a fair assesment.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Paul Cummins
Indeed. Then realised it was CFF being referred to.

Oh, FFS...

;)

Neil

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be
purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

If they called it First Class would they be entitled to a share
of Virgin's London - Birmingham First Class anytime fare revenue?

Charlie

[allantracy]

Post by Charlie Hulme
If they called it First Class would they be entitled to a share
of Virgin's London - Birmingham First Class anytime fare revenue?

More to the point, if they called it first class would Virgin be
entitled to a share of Chiltern’s anytime revenue?

The fare apportionment for a Birmingham STNs – London STNs anytime
fare must be, at the very least, a five way split between LM, Virgin,
Chiltern, XC and FGW.

I’m no expert but I believe the revenue split is down to a complex
equation that takes into account preferred usage, speed, frequency and
the quality of the service offered.

Given Virgin’s willingness to flog anytime fares and Chiltern and LM’s
willingness to flog anything but, I’m guessing, by that calculation,
that Virgin currently receive the lion’s share of the anytime fare
revenue.

Though, as a regular purchaser of Birmingham STNs to Heathrow Airport
(via Heathrow Express) anytime fare my preferred route has always been
XC to Reading thence FGW to Paddington, most especially during the
rush.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by allantracy

Post by Charlie Hulme
If they called it First Class would they be entitled to a share
of Virgin's London - Birmingham First Class anytime fare revenue?

More to the point, if they called it first class would Virgin be
entitled to a share of Chiltern’s anytime revenue?
The fare apportionment for a Birmingham STNs – London STNs anytime
fare must be, at the very least, a five way split between LM, Virgin,
Chiltern, XC and FGW.
I’m no expert but I believe the revenue split is down to a complex
equation that takes into account preferred usage, speed, frequency and
the quality of the service offered.
Given Virgin’s willingness to flog anytime fares and Chiltern and LM’s
willingness to flog anything but, I’m guessing, by that calculation,
that Virgin currently receive the lion’s share of the anytime fare
revenue.
Though, as a regular purchaser of Birmingham STNs to Heathrow Airport
(via Heathrow Express) anytime fare my preferred route has always been
XC to Reading thence FGW to Paddington, most especially during the
rush.

If you are going via Reading, what is the advantage of going into
Paddington and back out again over taking the Railair bus?

[allantracy]

Post by Graeme Wall
If you are going via Reading, what is the advantage of going into
Paddington and back out again over taking the Railair bus?

Well one is a train and the other isn't.

One gives the excuse to loiter at the Paddington platform end,
watching HSTs come and go, and the other doesn’t.

One gives you a ride on a HST and the other doesn’t.

One gives you a ride on Heathrow Express, with on board TV, and the
spectacular scenery of Hayes and Harlington, followed by the sheer
fascination of the airport tunnel underground section, and the other
doesn’t.

In other words, one option allows you to wear the crank goggles for
longer than the other.

Seriously though, I do find it a lot easier, with luggage, to do what
is normally just a couple of simple cross platform changes, on the
level, at Reading and Paddington than negotiating a transfer to a
coach at Reading and, of course, Heathrow express is straight into the
terminal.

Anyway, most of my jaunts down there are for long haul flights, with
all that entails (such as the three hour check in), and that means
inevitably having plenty of time on one’s hands.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by allantracy

Post by Graeme Wall
If you are going via Reading, what is the advantage of going into
Paddington and back out again over taking the Railair bus?

Well one is a train and the other isn't.
One gives the excuse to loiter at the Paddington platform end,
watching HSTs come and go, and the other doesn’t.

You can loiter at Reading and watch HSTs with the added attraction of
loco-hauled freights passing through as well.

Post by allantracy
One gives you a ride on a HST and the other doesn’t.

After 40 odd years of travelling on them, one ride more or less wouldn't
bother me.

Post by allantracy
One gives you a ride on Heathrow Express, with on board TV,

Which is something that definitely puts me off travelling on them.

Post by allantracy
and the
spectacular scenery of Hayes and Harlington, followed by the sheer
fascination of the airport tunnel underground section, and the other
doesn’t.

You get the road tunnel... OK point taken :-)

Post by allantracy
In other words, one option allows you to wear the crank goggles for
longer than the other.

Fairy snuff.

Post by allantracy
Seriously though, I do find it a lot easier, with luggage, to do what
is normally just a couple of simple cross platform changes, on the
level, at Reading and Paddington than negotiating a transfer to a
coach at Reading and, of course, Heathrow express is straight into the
terminal.
Anyway, most of my jaunts down there are for long haul flights, with
all that entails (such as the three hour check in), and that means
inevitably having plenty of time on one’s hands.

But the plenty of time is after you've checked in.

[Tony Miles]

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be
purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

If they called it First Class would they be entitled to a share
of Virgin's London - Birmingham First Class anytime fare revenue?
Charlie

Er... except anyone with an Open First Return will be able to travel
in the Chiltern Business Class without paying a supplement - according
to the Chiltern Mainline "boss" when I spoke to him on August 2nd...
so they will be getting a small ORCATS raid on West Coast - but
presumably only on sales of full, open tickets & a very small
proportion of them.

Tony

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Tony Miles
Er... except anyone with an Open First Return will be able to travel
in the Chiltern Business Class without paying a supplement - according
to the Chiltern Mainline "boss" when I spoke to him on August 2nd...
so they will be getting a small ORCATS raid on West Coast - but
presumably only on sales of full, open tickets& a very small
proportion of them.

Only returns? That seems complicated.

How about First Class all-line rovers, BritRail Passes ....?

Charlie

[Tony Walsall]

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by Tony Miles
Er... except anyone with an Open First Return will be able to travel
in the Chiltern Business Class without paying a supplement - according
to the Chiltern Mainline "boss" when I spoke to him on August 2nd...
so they will be getting a small ORCATS raid on West Coast - but
presumably only on sales of full, open tickets&  a very small
proportion of them.

Only returns? That seems complicated.

Why would anyone buy an any permitted first single if they were
travelling in a class only service?

Tony

Post by Charlie Hulme
How about First Class all-line rovers, BritRail Passes ....?
Charlie

[Tony Miles]

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by Tony Miles
Er... except anyone with an Open First Return will be able to travel
in the Chiltern Business Class without paying a supplement - according
to the Chiltern Mainline "boss" when I spoke to him on August 2nd...
so they will be getting a small ORCATS raid on West Coast - but
presumably only on sales of full, open tickets&  a very small
proportion of them.

Only returns? That seems complicated.
How about First Class all-line rovers, BritRail Passes ....?
Charlie

Sorry Charlie, I was using Open Returns as an example - as my phone
battery was about to die - and it was the example I asked about. I
think Chiltern meant "Open First" tickets - presumably single and
returns.. but I didn't ask about passes and rovers. I will.

Main points are a) Some First Class tickets will allow access to the
Business Zone and b) Chiltern staff will have to know which can and
can't be used - and so will customers - so Chiltern had better make it
clear which can and can't be used, and c) as has been said before,
once you are allowing First Class tickets to be used then the whole
"looks like a duck etc." point is completely valid - why think of a
new name for a very obvious product....

Tony

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Tony Miles
once you are allowing First Class tickets to be used then the whole
"looks like a duck etc." point is completely valid - why think of a
new name for a very obvious product....

So that people "on expenses" are allowed to buy it.

[Tony Miles]

Post by Roland Perry
In message

Post by Tony Miles
once you are allowing First Class tickets to be used then the whole
"looks like a duck etc." point is completely valid - why think of a
new name for a very obvious product....

So that people "on expenses" are allowed to buy it.
--
Roland Perry

Other than that.... (I see East Coast has a similar product that
doesn't use the word "First" - so all those MPs on its route can
travel up front without having to declare it...)

Tony

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Tony Miles

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tony Miles
once you are allowing First Class tickets to be used then the whole
"looks like a duck etc." point is completely valid - why think of a
new name for a very obvious product....

So that people "on expenses" are allowed to buy it.

Other than that.... (I see East Coast has a similar product that
doesn't use the word "First" - so all those MPs on its route can
travel up front without having to declare it...)

I had always hoped that privatisation might result in a better choice of
tickets. This supplement ("Weekday First" in effect) is a useful
experiment especially as there aren't any full-fare FC tickets to
abstract revenue from.

[Chafford]

Whatever the minutae about ticketing that need to be sorted out, it's
an exciting upgrade to a line which I remember in the mid 80s was on
its last legs. Marylebone - Banbury is those days was 1 hour 40
minutes, slower than the fastest 90 minutes timetable to Birmingham
from September.

I wonder though, given the relatively limited number of new passing
loops installed (Northolt and Princes Risborough) whether the
timetable will be sufficiently robust to deal with late running trains
and meet the fastest timings.

I'm also wondering whether Chiltern will be swamped with people
switching to their services, putting in jeopardy their new 'turn up
and go' ticketing policy to the Midlands.

[Chris]

Post by Chafford
I wonder though, given the relatively limited number of new passing
loops installed (Northolt and Princes Risborough) whether the
timetable will be sufficiently robust to deal with late running trains
and meet the fastest timings.

The Princes Risborough loop, although bi-di, is only directly
connected to the UP line at both ends, and is speed limited to 40mph
in the down - so it isn't going to be used on a regular basis on the
down lines as it means blocking the UP line at the up platform.

There are also UP passing places at both Wycombe and Gerrards Cross,
using the bi-di down platforms. Indeed, services can restart from the
down GC platform towards MYB.

Post by Chafford
I'm also wondering whether Chiltern will be swamped with people
switching to their services, putting in jeopardy their new 'turn up
and go' ticketing policy to the Midlands.

I'm sure that'll be a problem very welcomed by Chiltern!

To correct / update some other posts in this thread....

L.W. is incorrect in saying that wifi will be chargable in Standard.
It isn't - it'll be free across their LHCS & Clubmans (which are being
fitted with wifi right now). Clubman availability should be right
across the train - in LHCS, it is currently only fitted in the
Business Zone coach, but leaks part way down the ajoining coach (coach
B) - so the rush for the BZ coach up until now (because it is free)
will transfer to the seats in Coach B that can get wifi. It is
Chiltern's intention to fit out all LHCS coaches with free wifi, but
not at the moment.

The BZ charge of £20 e/way in the peaks is aimed at the business
traveller, rather than the commuter. Multiply that charge up to
2xdaily, 40 weeks of the year (similar to the way that Annual seasons
are calculated) and along with the Birmingham-Lndon season becomes
£4000 dearer than a Virgin 1st Class season!.....some monthly add-on
supplement ought to be available to season ticket holders......

The new TT has been available on Chiltern's website as well as the NRE
engine for most of last week, and the books (two now, one Mailline &
one Chiltern) will be available tomorrow.

New fares from KIddy - Leamington are launched on the 4th September
with the new timetable. They are now as follows -

Anytime / Off-Peak (arrive after 10) / Super off-Peak (arrive after
1130, evening restrictions 1600-1900)
Kiddy / Stourbridge - £85 / £55 / £25
Birmingham - Warwick Warwick Parkway - £75 / £50 / £25
Warwick & Leamington - £75 / £45 / £25

This will mean very few using the Off-Peak fare. Most will think that
arriving 90 minutes later (1000->1130) to save at least £20 well worth
while, while lifting the Super off-peak restriction back from 2000 to
1900 will produce serious overcrowding into the first train to
Birmingham after 1900, which is already full currently.

The works are currently running to time - indeed, last week's works
completed early in places. Next week's works are at Northolt, Wycombe
& Princes Risborough.

The new Mainline TT is now too fast for 165 turbos to be allocated to
services, so we'll see them more often on Bicester & Banbury
terminators. Indeed, any 165s allocated will mean that the service
will be at least 10 minutes late arriving, probably more.

Finally, the balancing trip back from Oxford for the 2315 ex-Stratford-
Oxford service (correction though - arrives 0017) leaves Oxford for
Banbury (now all stations) at 0038, Monday - Friday.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Chris
The BZ charge of £20 e/way in the peaks is aimed at the business
traveller, rather than the commuter. Multiply that charge up to
2xdaily, 40 weeks of the year (similar to the way that Annual seasons
are calculated) and along with the Birmingham-Lndon season becomes
£4000 dearer than a Virgin 1st Class season!

A Birmingham - London First Class season will surely be valid on
either route though?

Charlie

[Chris]

Post by Chris
The BZ charge of £20 e/way in the peaks is aimed at the business
traveller, rather than the commuter. Multiply that charge up to
2xdaily, 40 weeks of the year (similar to the way that Annual seasons
are calculated) and along with the Birmingham-Lndon season becomes
£4000 dearer than a Virgin 1st Class season!

A Birmingham  - London First Class season will surely be valid on
either route though?
Charlie

Exactly - but would you use Virgin or Chiltern? So that'll be lost
customers to Chiltern then....

[Peter Masson]

Post by Chris
The Princes Risborough loop, although bi-di, is only directly
connected to the UP line at both ends, and is speed limited to 40mph
in the down - so it isn't going to be used on a regular basis on the
down lines as it means blocking the UP line at the up platform.

The new timetable seems to show some down trains which are recessed at
Princes Risborough to allow a fast down train to overtake. The timings do
not show up trains calling at Princes Risborough while these down trains are
calling, so I suspect that they are booked to use the Up Platform Loop,
allowing the fast train to overtake on the Down Main. The alternative, for
the stopping train to call at the Down Main platform, while the fast
overtakes on the Up Main, would involve the fast train using
speed-restricted crossovers at both ends of the station.

Peter

[Chris]

Post by Peter Masson
The new timetable seems to show some down trains which are recessed at
Princes Risborough to allow a fast down train to overtake. The timings do
not show up trains calling at Princes Risborough while these down trains are
calling, so I suspect that they are booked to use the Up Platform Loop,
allowing the fast train to overtake on the Down Main. The alternative, for
the stopping train to call at the Down Main platform, while the fast
overtakes on the Up Main, would involve the fast train using
speed-restricted crossovers at both ends of the station.

They will need checking out but, yes, I think you're right - Chiltern
have said that they'll use the UP platform for sitting trains & the
Down Main for passing trains - that way the fast passing can retain
the down main speed to carry on past the stopper.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Roland Perry
So that people "on expenses" are allowed to buy it.

If the rule was "no First Class", I wouldn't sign it. If it looks
like a duck and quacks like a duck, etc.

If the rule was "cheapest ticket", I'd consider signing either that or
First Class if it was cheaper than travelling Standard plus the extras
required for business purposes, e.g. wi-fi if the traveller was
actually doing work requiring it throughout the journey. But it's
rather more likely (certainly true of the company for which I work)
that those actually requiring Internet access on the move (as opposed
to just wanting it, in which case they can presumably pay for it
themselves) tend to have data cards or USB dongles anyway.

Personally, I'd rather see the fares system changed such that there is
a First Class fare at 1.5x every Standard fare with the same
conditions and rules (as in, don't actually have any First Class
tickets, just apply the multiplier to a Standard ticket when selling),
as 20 quid "flat rate" is rather steep on shorter-distance and off-
peak tickets. Though I do note from the timetables that no supplement
is chargeable on the middle of the day trains, and given that most
Chiltern trains don't have First Class it's perhaps a more pragmatic
option to upgrade on board if offered.

Neil

[W14_Fishbourne]

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Presumably aimed at those business travellers for whom First Class
travel is no longer permitted.

[Bruce]

Post by W14_Fishbourne

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Presumably aimed at those business travellers for whom First Class
travel is no longer permitted.

But how will they reclaim the rather steep £20 per single trip
supplement?

[Tony Walsall]

Post by W14_Fishbourne

Post by Philip

A 20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Presumably aimed at those business travellers for whom First Class
travel is no longer permitted.

But how will they reclaim the rather steep 20 per single trip
supplement?

As it is not marked First Class some businesses will probably OK it,
but even if they don't some people will be willing to pay the £20
themselves and just claim the GBP75.00 standard return fare back.

As for it being rather steep an anytime 'First Class' return for £115
seems rather good value for a 15 minute slower journey than the price/
time offered by Virgin

Tony

[Jonathan Morton]

Post by Tony Walsall
As it is not marked First Class some businesses will probably OK it,
but even if they don't some people will be willing to pay the £20
themselves and just claim the GBP75.00 standard return fare back.
As for it being rather steep an anytime 'First Class' return for £115
seems rather good value for a 15 minute slower journey than the price/
time offered by Virgin

Indeed. However - it's a linked aspect, so I won't start a new thread -
Chiltern need to get their act together with timetable details. "Mainline is
coming", and vague waffle about fares and fastest timings is all well and
good, but where's the beef? The post-upgrade TT is not available on
Chiltern's website or on Table 115 of the national download - though it is
possible to glean some info from the journey planners.

If one were cynical one might suspect that Chiltern are hedging their bets
about whether the project will actually finish in time for the September
changeover. But seriously, it's only three weeks away, so the new timings
are within the period of validity of a return ticket purchased today - it
isn't unreasonable to wonder when one might be able to come back.

Anyone know how the works are coming on? Aynho seems to be finished and
presumably the blockade starting today is to sort the remaining works at
Neasden, Northholt and Wycombe.

Regards

Jonathan

[Jack Taylor]

Post by Jonathan Morton
Anyone know how the works are coming on? Aynho seems to be finished and
presumably the blockade starting today is to sort the remaining works at
Neasden, Northholt and Wycombe.

Neasden this coming week; Northolt and Princes Risborough next week (along
with commissioning of the associated new signalling at those and other
points along the route). The former is major work, as it has not been
possible to carry out anything much more than groundworks and preparation of
panels for installation given the limited access, the latter involves
connection of the laid and bedded in track at the Northolt Jn end (it's
already been done at the Northolt Park Jn. end) and alignment of the laid
track and connection across the site of the current slip at the north end of
Princes Risborough station.

[Jonathan Morton]

Post by Jack Taylor

Post by Jonathan Morton
Anyone know how the works are coming on? Aynho seems to be finished and
presumably the blockade starting today is to sort the remaining works at
Neasden, Northholt and Wycombe.

Neasden this coming week; Northolt and Princes Risborough next week
(along with commissioning of the associated new signalling at those and
other points along the route). The former is major work, as it has not
been possible to carry out anything much more than groundworks and
preparation of panels for installation given the limited access, the
latter involves connection of the laid and bedded in track at the Northolt
Jn end (it's already been done at the Northolt Park Jn. end) and alignment
of the laid track and connection across the site of the current slip at
the north end of Princes Risborough station.

Thanks - I had forgotten about Risborough.

Wandering over to Moor Street yesterday, I picked up the blockade brochure -
one must have something to read over coffee - and was interested to see that
the trains from Birmingham are all being diverted to Didcot, not stopping at
Oxford. Probably makes sense operationally. Do Chiltern's drivers sign
Oxford-Didcot, or have they hired in some FGW drivers for the Banbury-Didcot
section?

Regards

Jonathan

[Paul Scott]

Post by Jonathan Morton
Wandering over to Moor Street yesterday, I picked up the blockade
brochure - one must have something to read over coffee - and was
interested to see that the trains from Birmingham are all being diverted
to Didcot, not stopping at Oxford. Probably makes sense operationally.

They've done this a few times already during previous weekday closures, I
think the explanation was that they want to spread the extra Chiltern
passengers onto more than just Oxford trains.

There were various reports of Chiltern units on route learning trips between
Oxford and Didcot a year or so back, I assume a number of drivers sign
Banbury - Oxford already for existing diversionary plans, and of course
Banbury now covers the Bicester Town shuttle anyway.

Paul

[Jonathan Morton]

Post by Paul Scott

Post by Jonathan Morton
Wandering over to Moor Street yesterday, I picked up the blockade
brochure - one must have something to read over coffee - and was
interested to see that the trains from Birmingham are all being diverted
to Didcot, not stopping at Oxford. Probably makes sense operationally.

They've done this a few times already during previous weekday closures, I
think the explanation was that they want to spread the extra Chiltern
passengers onto more than just Oxford trains.

That was my assumption too - Oxford can be a bit of a scrum at the best of
times, plus it enables the Chiltern diversions to take the through roads.

Post by Paul Scott
There were various reports of Chiltern units on route learning trips
between Oxford and Didcot a year or so back, I assume a number of drivers
sign Banbury - Oxford already for existing diversionary plans, and of
course Banbury now covers the Bicester Town shuttle anyway.

There is a Chiltern Banbury-Oxford service in the TT already (2315 from
Stratford, terminates Oxford 0117), possibly for route knowledge purposes.
No balancing working AFAICS.

With Chiltern and the Cotswold line both out of action at present, it's a
bus-driver's dream in these parts - but all in a good cause long-term.

Regards

Jonathan

[W14_Fishbourne]

Post by W14_Fishbourne

Post by Philip

A 20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Presumably aimed at those business travellers for whom First Class
travel is no longer permitted.

But how will they reclaim the rather steep 20 per single trip
supplement?

Presumably that's not a problem - MPs and the like now have to be able
to show that they're only travelling Standard Class. The supplement
will be claimable on the basis that it makes a saving over buying WiFi
access, refreshments, and the like separately. Anyway, MPs' expenses
rules only say that they can't travel First Class, they don't ban them
from paying supplements.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<1fdcc2bf-aace-4a97-a76a-***@g9g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, at
15:49:23 on Sat, 13 Aug 2011, W14_Fishbourne

Post by W14_Fishbourne

But how will they reclaim the rather steep 20 per single trip
supplement?

Presumably that's not a problem - MPs and the like now have to be able
to show that they're only travelling Standard Class. The supplement
will be claimable on the basis that it makes a saving over buying WiFi
access, refreshments, and the like separately. Anyway, MPs' expenses
rules only say that they can't travel First Class, they don't ban them
from paying supplements.

I agree, the supplement should be pretty easy for most people to claim
as a business expense.

And don't forget the Midland Mainline's "First plus breakfast" tickets,
which manage to sneak some refreshments in excess of HMR&C limits[1]
under the radar.

[1] £5 if leaving home before 6am *and* that's earlier than usual.

[Star Fury]

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Hmm, I wonder what's printed on the ticket...

[Roland Perry]

Post by Star Fury

Post by Philip

Post by Chafford
A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Hmm, I wonder what's printed on the ticket...

The first question to ask is, if bought at a station (or collected as
ToD) is it delivered as one or two coupons?

[Paul Scott]

Post by Star Fury

Post by Philip
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Hmm, I wonder what's printed on the ticket...

'Route Aylesbury' perhaps?

Paul

[Jonathan Morton]

Post by Paul Scott

Post by Star Fury

Post by Philip
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Hmm, I wonder what's printed on the ticket...

'Route Aylesbury' perhaps?

<applause>

Regards

Jonathan

[Chafford]

It's taken 44 years 6 months but we're essentially back to where we
were in March 1967 - loco hauled expresses along the 'Joint' line.

[ant]

Will these services be loco hauled or units? and if units , what type will
they be?

"Chafford" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:cc0448ee-3bab-4720-a2bc-***@y24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Chiltern railways have started to advertise their faster Birmingham
services from September, including their new 'Business Zone' service,
which despite Chiltern's denial, looks very much like First Class (see
below).

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/mainline


'In the Business Zone we have created the ideal working environment.
You can enjoy larger tables and seats that are not only wider, but
also have more legroom than any other train service between Birmingham
and London.

Passengers in the Business Zone are also attended to by a dedicated
train host who can provide an at-seat catering service that includes
freshly cooked bacon rolls.

All trains with a Business Zone will offer free Wi-Fi., and passengers
will be able to reserve specific seats. Business Zone access can be
purchased with your ticket or dependant on availability passengers can
upgrade onboard.

A £20 supplement is required per journey to travel in the Business
Zone. Business Zone is not first class, and any standard class ticket
is valid with a Business Zone supplement, which can be purchased with
your ticket (if booking at a station) or simply upgraded onboard.

On the 0837 train from London to Birmingham and the 1555 service from
Birmingham to London, the Business Zone supplement will be just £10.'

[John Hulme]

 Will these services be loco hauled or units?  and if units , what type will
they be?

Ex- Wrexham & Shropshire 67s and stock. See:

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1108b.htm

Charlie

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Chafford
All trains with a Business Zone will offer free Wi-Fi., and passengers
will be able to reserve specific seats.

Free wifi, and reservations, for all passengers on these trains? Or is
it poorly written and it means for those on the Business Zone only?

[L.Willms]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Chafford
All trains with a Business Zone will offer free Wi-Fi., and passengers
will be able to reserve specific seats.

Free wifi, and reservations, for all passengers on these trains? Or is
it poorly written and it means for those on the Business Zone only?

I understand that Wifi is available in the Business Zone car, and in another
one. See the images at <http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1108b.htm>, especially the
photo at

Post by Roland Perry
<Loading Image...>

where I read "WiFi in Business Zone and Coach B".

But free it would be only in the Business zone, while in the other coaches it
is priced separately.


Cheers,
L.W.

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by L.Willms

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Chafford
All trains with a Business Zone will offer free Wi-Fi., and passengers
will be able to reserve specific seats.

Free wifi, and reservations, for all passengers on these trains? Or is
it poorly written and it means for those on the Business Zone only?

I understand that Wifi is available in the Business Zone car, and in another
one. See the images at <http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1108b.htm>, especially the
photo at

Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.nwrail.org.uk/cm-closeup12174.jpg>

where I read "WiFi in Business Zone and Coach B".
But free it would be only in the Business zone, while in the other coaches it
is priced separately.

So a bit of a muddle, really. People outside the Business Zone will be
offered the Free Wifi, but unless they are paying the business zone
supplement they can't use it?

[L.Willms]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by L.Willms
I understand that Wifi is available in the Business Zone car, and in another
one. See the images at <http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1108b.htm>, especially the
photo at

Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.nwrail.org.uk/cm-closeup12174.jpg>

where I read "WiFi in Business Zone and Coach B".
But free it would be only in the Business zone, while in the other coaches it
is priced separately.

So a bit of a muddle, really. People outside the Business Zone will be
offered the Free Wifi, but unless they are paying the business zone
supplement they can't use it?

I can, of course, only guess ... I would think that in the 20 GBP supplement
for the "Business Zone" WiFi is included among some other perks, while one can
(or must) purchase the various perks in other coaches separately. Only WAG, as
said.


Cheers,
L.W.