The sorry state of British train etiquette

[Recliner]

The sorry state of British train etiquette – and the 10 worst offences

A rail watchdog has suggested issuing ‘yellow cards’ to passengers
travelling without a ticket. Here are some other bookable misdeeds

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/british-rail-etiquette-worst-offences/

It was an honest mistake. My railcard had lapsed, I didn’t notice, and then
I unwittingly used it to obtain a discount of £8 on a fare. The great train
robbery it wasn’t. Yet I was treated like a criminal; filmed and videoed by
a beefy revenue protection officer who looked like he should be wielding a
truncheon inside HMP Pentonville, not out in public. A week later, I was
slapped down with a draconian £80 fine.

Where is the humanity? Enter Transport Focus, the rail watchdog which
recently mooted a more rational approach: issuing first-time offenders with
a yellow card.

“Passengers shouldn’t be treated like criminals for making an innocent
mistake,” the watchdog said. Hear, hear. It’s an idea that may yet get
taken onboard by the Department for Transport, which has ordered a review
into revenue protection practices. Here are some other yellow-card offences
they might want to consider.

<continues>

[Tweed]

Post by Recliner
The sorry state of British train etiquette – and the 10 worst offences
A rail watchdog has suggested issuing ‘yellow cards’ to passengers
travelling without a ticket. Here are some other bookable misdeeds
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/british-rail-etiquette-worst-offences/
It was an honest mistake. My railcard had lapsed, I didn’t notice, and then
I unwittingly used it to obtain a discount of £8 on a fare. The great train
robbery it wasn’t. Yet I was treated like a criminal; filmed and videoed by
a beefy revenue protection officer who looked like he should be wielding a
truncheon inside HMP Pentonville, not out in public. A week later, I was
slapped down with a draconian £80 fine.
Where is the humanity? Enter Transport Focus, the rail watchdog which
recently mooted a more rational approach: issuing first-time offenders with
a yellow card.
“Passengers shouldn’t be treated like criminals for making an innocent
mistake,” the watchdog said. Hear, hear. It’s an idea that may yet get
taken onboard by the Department for Transport, which has ordered a review
into revenue protection practices. Here are some other yellow-card offences
they might want to consider.
<continues>

The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

[JMB99]

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

Reading reports of people being given heavy penalties for simple
mistakes must put many off using rail, especially infrequent users who
will feel they are more likely to make mistakes.

[Coffee]

Post by JMB99

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

Reading reports of people being given heavy penalties for simple
mistakes must put many off using rail, especially infrequent users who
will feel they are more likely to make mistakes.

I'm absolutely certain that's the case.

It the machine is out of order or unable to supply the correct ticket I
take a photograph of the screen with my Railcard in view to protect
myself from the excesses of the Revenue Enforcement Officers.

I'm also seeing evidence that the extreme right Conservative Welsh
politicians are publishing falsehoods on social media regarding the
"Labour Welsh Government controlled TfW" as they put it.

[Recliner]

Post by Coffee

Post by JMB99

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

Reading reports of people being given heavy penalties for simple
mistakes must put many off using rail, especially infrequent users who
will feel they are more likely to make mistakes.

I'm absolutely certain that's the case.
It the machine is out of order or unable to supply the correct ticket I
take a photograph of the screen with my Railcard in view to protect
myself from the excesses of the Revenue Enforcement Officers.
I'm also seeing evidence that the extreme right Conservative Welsh
politicians are publishing falsehoods on social media regarding the
"Labour Welsh Government controlled TfW" as they put it.

Is TfW not controlled by the Welsh government, and is that not a Labour government?

Why would you object to a purely factual description?

No doubt the Tories are critical of the performance of TfW, just as Labour would be if Wales had a non-Labour
government, but why would that be in any way surprising?

[Coffee]

Post by Recliner

Post by Coffee

Post by JMB99

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

Reading reports of people being given heavy penalties for simple
mistakes must put many off using rail, especially infrequent users who
will feel they are more likely to make mistakes.

I'm absolutely certain that's the case.
It the machine is out of order or unable to supply the correct ticket I
take a photograph of the screen with my Railcard in view to protect
myself from the excesses of the Revenue Enforcement Officers.
I'm also seeing evidence that the extreme right Conservative Welsh
politicians are publishing falsehoods on social media regarding the
"Labour Welsh Government controlled TfW" as they put it.

Is TfW not controlled by the Welsh government, and is that not a Labour government?
Why would you object to a purely factual description?
No doubt the Tories are critical of the performance of TfW, just as Labour would be if Wales had a non-Labour
government, but why would that be in any way surprising?

It's worthy of comment because some of what they're saying is not true.

[Recliner]

Post by Coffee

Post by Recliner

Post by Coffee

Post by JMB99

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

Reading reports of people being given heavy penalties for simple
mistakes must put many off using rail, especially infrequent users who
will feel they are more likely to make mistakes.

I'm absolutely certain that's the case.
It the machine is out of order or unable to supply the correct ticket I
take a photograph of the screen with my Railcard in view to protect
myself from the excesses of the Revenue Enforcement Officers.
I'm also seeing evidence that the extreme right Conservative Welsh
politicians are publishing falsehoods on social media regarding the
"Labour Welsh Government controlled TfW" as they put it.

Is TfW not controlled by the Welsh government, and is that not a Labour government?
Why would you object to a purely factual description?
No doubt the Tories are critical of the performance of TfW, just as Labour would be if Wales had a non-Labour
government, but why would that be in any way surprising?

It's worthy of comment because some of what they're saying is not true.

They're politicians! Why would you expect anything they say to be true?

[ColinR]

Post by Coffee

Post by Recliner

Post by Coffee

Post by JMB99

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

Reading reports of people being given heavy penalties for simple
mistakes must put many off using rail, especially infrequent users who
will feel they are more likely to make mistakes.

I'm absolutely certain that's the case.
It the machine is out of order or unable to supply the correct ticket I
take a photograph of the screen with my Railcard in view to protect
myself from the excesses of the Revenue Enforcement Officers.
I'm also seeing evidence that the extreme right Conservative Welsh
politicians are publishing falsehoods on social media regarding the
"Labour Welsh Government controlled TfW" as they put it.

Is TfW not controlled by the Welsh government, and is that not a Labour government?
Why would you object to a purely factual description?
No doubt the Tories are critical of the performance of TfW, just as
Labour would be if Wales had a non-Labour
government, but why would that be in any way surprising?

It's worthy of comment because some of what they're saying is not true.

If that be the case surely you could have provided a link to that rather
making a true but misleading statement.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based on
their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior Railcard for
a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it once every other
year.

The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone I
don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I fished
it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around trying to find
the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such a fuss about [not]
issuing plastic ones.

The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based on
their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior Railcard for
a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it once every other
year.
The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone I
don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I fished
it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around trying to find
the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such a fuss about [not]
issuing plastic ones.

Never had a problem getting a plastic one. As to the rest of it you must
be the only person in the country who insists on going about things in
such an awkward fashion.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is
ever done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in
fares that they usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30.
Something like forcing an immediate purchase of a railcard at a
higher cost, or for a recently outdated card (eg a month) forcing
the purchase of a new railcard with just 11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based on
their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior Railcard
for a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it once every
other year.
The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone I
don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I fished
it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around trying to
find the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such a fuss
about [not] issuing plastic ones.

Never had a problem getting a plastic one. As to the rest of it you
must be the only person in the country who insists on going about
things in such an awkward fashion.

I know, it's terrible of me to live somewhere that doesn't have a 24x7
manned ticket office, and be needing a railcard renewal sooner than
their published lead time for a mail-ordered one.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is
ever  done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in
fares  that they  usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30.
Something like forcing an  immediate purchase of a railcard at a
higher cost, or for a recently  outdated card (eg a month) forcing
the purchase of a new railcard  with just  11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

 Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based on
their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior Railcard
for  a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it once every
other  year.
 The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone I
don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I
fished it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around
trying to find  the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such
a fuss about [not]  issuing plastic ones.

Never had a problem getting a plastic one. As to the rest of it you
must be the only person in the country who insists on going about
things in such an awkward fashion.

I know, it's terrible of me to live somewhere that doesn't have a 24x7
manned ticket office, and be needing a railcard renewal sooner than
their published lead time for a mail-ordered one.

You seem to be unable to think ahead. These new-fangled computers have a
calendar function which allows you to enter alerts when things like
railcards need renewing. Why not try it?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway
is ever  done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference
in fares  that they  usually claim, plus a penalty. So around
£30. Something like forcing an  immediate purchase of a railcard
at a higher cost, or for a recently  outdated card (eg a month)
forcing the purchase of a new railcard  with just  11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

 Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based
on their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior
Railcard for  a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it
once every other  year.
 The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone
I don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I
fished it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around
trying to find  the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such
a fuss about [not]  issuing plastic ones.

Never had a problem getting a plastic one. As to the rest of it you
must be the only person in the country who insists on going about
things in such an awkward fashion.

I know, it's terrible of me to live somewhere that doesn't have a
24x7 manned ticket office, and be needing a railcard renewal sooner
than their published lead time for a mail-ordered one.

You seem to be unable to think ahead. These new-fangled computers have
a calendar function which allows you to enter alerts when things like
railcards need renewing. Why not try it?

Having wasted about two of the three years of the previous Railcard
(maybe I'd have been in a different frame of mind if they'd refunded,
or extended) due to Covid, I maybe wasn't going to buy a new one on
the off-chance that it might be useful.

However, I did exactly what you asked, and responded to an alert in my
calendar that the Railcard was going to expire in seven days. It takes
longer than that to buy one mail-order.

And by co-incidence the first rail trip I needed to make was three days
later (out) [old card], and eight days later back [new card].

So in fact I would have needed them to post me the new railcard the very
next day, otherwise on my return trip I would have had a railcard, but
unable to show it because it was in my letterbox at home.

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway
is ever  done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference
in fares  that they  usually claim, plus a penalty. So around
£30. Something like forcing an  immediate purchase of a railcard
at a higher cost, or for a recently  outdated card (eg a month)
forcing the purchase of a new railcard  with just  11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

 Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based
on their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior
Railcard for  a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it
once every other  year.
 The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone
I don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I
fished it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around
trying to find  the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such
a fuss about [not]  issuing plastic ones.

Never had a problem getting a plastic one. As to the rest of it you
must be the only person in the country who insists on going about
things in such an awkward fashion.

I know, it's terrible of me to live somewhere that doesn't have a
24x7 manned ticket office, and be needing a railcard renewal sooner
than their published lead time for a mail-ordered one.

You seem to be unable to think ahead. These new-fangled computers have
a calendar function which allows you to enter alerts when things like
railcards need renewing. Why not try it?

Having wasted about two of the three years of the previous Railcard
(maybe I'd have been in a different frame of mind if they'd refunded,
or extended) due to Covid, I maybe wasn't going to buy a new one on
the off-chance that it might be useful.
However, I did exactly what you asked, and responded to an alert in my
calendar that the Railcard was going to expire in seven days. It takes
longer than that to buy one mail-order.
And by co-incidence the first rail trip I needed to make was three days
later (out) [old card], and eight days later back [new card].
So in fact I would have needed them to post me the new railcard the very
next day, otherwise on my return trip I would have had a railcard, but
unable to show it because it was in my letterbox at home.

Seems like a failure to put the alert in your calendar sufficiently far in
advance. Or you could make a trip to a station with a ticket office during
opening hours. Bit like going to a shop when it’s open.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway
is ever  done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference
in fares  that they  usually claim, plus a penalty. So around
£30. Something like forcing an  immediate purchase of a railcard
at a higher cost, or for a recently  outdated card (eg a month)
forcing the purchase of a new railcard  with just  11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

 Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based
on their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior
Railcard for  a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it
once every other  year.
 The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone
I don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I
fished it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around
trying to find  the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such
a fuss about [not]  issuing plastic ones.

Never had a problem getting a plastic one. As to the rest of it you
must be the only person in the country who insists on going about
things in such an awkward fashion.

I know, it's terrible of me to live somewhere that doesn't have a
24x7 manned ticket office, and be needing a railcard renewal sooner
than their published lead time for a mail-ordered one.

You seem to be unable to think ahead. These new-fangled computers have
a calendar function which allows you to enter alerts when things like
railcards need renewing. Why not try it?

Having wasted about two of the three years of the previous Railcard
(maybe I'd have been in a different frame of mind if they'd refunded,
or extended) due to Covid, I maybe wasn't going to buy a new one on
the off-chance that it might be useful.
However, I did exactly what you asked, and responded to an alert in my
calendar that the Railcard was going to expire in seven days. It takes
longer than that to buy one mail-order.
And by co-incidence the first rail trip I needed to make was three days
later (out) [old card], and eight days later back [new card].
So in fact I would have needed them to post me the new railcard the very
next day, otherwise on my return trip I would have had a railcard, but
unable to show it because it was in my letterbox at home.

Seems like a failure to put the alert in your calendar sufficiently far in
advance.

I did put it in the calendar in advance, to go off a week before renewal
was required. But it turned out this was overtaken by events.

Post by Tweed
Or you could make a trip to a station with a ticket office during
opening hours.

Don't you need a wet photo?

Post by Tweed
Bit like going to a shop when it’s open.

Shops, unlike railway ticket offices, don't shut because the RMT has got
the hump.

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway
is ever  done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference
in fares  that they  usually claim, plus a penalty. So around
£30. Something like forcing an  immediate purchase of a railcard
at a higher cost, or for a recently  outdated card (eg a month)
forcing the purchase of a new railcard  with just  11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

 Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based
on their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior
Railcard for  a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it
once every other  year.
 The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone
I don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I
fished it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around
trying to find  the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such
a fuss about [not]  issuing plastic ones.

Never had a problem getting a plastic one. As to the rest of it you
must be the only person in the country who insists on going about
things in such an awkward fashion.

I know, it's terrible of me to live somewhere that doesn't have a
24x7 manned ticket office, and be needing a railcard renewal sooner
than their published lead time for a mail-ordered one.

You seem to be unable to think ahead. These new-fangled computers have
a calendar function which allows you to enter alerts when things like
railcards need renewing. Why not try it?

Having wasted about two of the three years of the previous Railcard
(maybe I'd have been in a different frame of mind if they'd refunded,
or extended) due to Covid, I maybe wasn't going to buy a new one on
the off-chance that it might be useful.
However, I did exactly what you asked, and responded to an alert in my
calendar that the Railcard was going to expire in seven days. It takes
longer than that to buy one mail-order.
And by co-incidence the first rail trip I needed to make was three days
later (out) [old card], and eight days later back [new card].
So in fact I would have needed them to post me the new railcard the very
next day, otherwise on my return trip I would have had a railcard, but
unable to show it because it was in my letterbox at home.

Seems like a failure to put the alert in your calendar sufficiently far in
advance.

I did put it in the calendar in advance, to go off a week before renewal
was required. But it turned out this was overtaken by events.

Post by Tweed
Or you could make a trip to a station with a ticket office during
opening hours.

Don't you need a wet photo?

Post by Tweed
Bit like going to a shop when it’s open.

Shops, unlike railway ticket offices, don't shut because the RMT has got
the hump.

No photo needed. For some strange reason only the digital version of an old
folks card needs a picture. I ordered mine online (my first!) and it came
in about 5 days.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway
is  ever  done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference
in  fares  that they  usually claim, plus a penalty. So around
£30.  Something like forcing an  immediate purchase of a railcard
at a  higher cost, or for a recently  outdated card (eg a month)
forcing  the purchase of a new railcard  with just  11 months
validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

 Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based
on  their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior
Railcard  for  a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it
once every  other  year.
 The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone
I  don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I
fished it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around
trying to find  the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such
a fuss about [not]  issuing plastic ones.

Never had a problem getting a plastic one. As to the rest of it you
must be the only person in the country who insists on going about
things in such an awkward fashion.

I know, it's terrible of me to live somewhere that doesn't have a
24x7  manned ticket office, and be needing a railcard renewal sooner
than  their published lead time for a mail-ordered one.

You seem to be unable to think ahead. These new-fangled computers have
a calendar function which allows you to enter alerts when things like
railcards need renewing. Why not try it?

Having wasted about two of the three years of the previous Railcard
(maybe I'd have been in a different frame of mind if they'd refunded,
or extended) due to Covid, I maybe wasn't going to buy a new one on
the off-chance that it might be useful.
However, I did exactly what you asked, and responded to an alert in my
calendar that the Railcard was going to expire in seven days. It takes
longer than that to buy one mail-order.
And by co-incidence the first rail trip I needed to make was three days
later (out) [old card], and eight days later back [new card].
So in fact I would have needed them to post me the new railcard the very
next day, otherwise on my return trip I would have had a railcard, but
unable to show it because it was in my letterbox at home.

Seems like a failure to put the alert in your calendar sufficiently far in
advance.

I did put it in the calendar in advance, to go off a week before renewal
was required. But it turned out this was overtaken by events.

Post by Tweed
Or you could make a trip to a station with a ticket office during
opening hours.

Don't you need a wet photo?

No photo required

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
Bit like going to a shop when it’s open.

Shops, unlike railway ticket offices, don't shut because the RMT has got
the hump.

No just when the proprietor doesn't feel like opening.

[Ken]

Post by Roland Perry
Having wasted about two of the three years of the previous Railcard
(maybe I'd have been in a different frame of mind if they'd refunded,
or extended) due to Covid, I maybe wasn't going to buy a new one on
the off-chance that it might be useful.

On the off-chance? I thought you were a fairly regular rail traveller.
A railcard would save me money even if I had to renew it every month.

The COVID thing was unreasonable behaviour by the authorities but
there's no point in cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry
Having wasted about two of the three years of the previous Railcard
(maybe I'd have been in a different frame of mind if they'd refunded,
or extended) due to Covid, I maybe wasn't going to buy a new one on
the off-chance that it might be useful.

On the off-chance? I thought you were a fairly regular rail traveller.
A railcard would save me money even if I had to renew it every month.

We are talking about last September, and as it happens I had been away
from home for eight days continuously attending three separate events
(but not the Sunday the day before the renew alert arrived on Monday).

The previous train trip I'd taken was five weeks earlier (a railtour)
and before that a hop back from Bishops Stortford, the JLR Dealership
who were doing some repairs.

In October I did one rail trip, November two trips, December one.

The vast majority of the time I drive, because it's not necessary to
book, it's usually no more expensive [my rule of thumb is driving costs
2x the fuel cost] and most of all, there simply aren't the trains
between A-B when I need them. eg Try getting to the Bletchley Museum
from Cambridge on a Sunday morning by train. 3hrs, £50, whereas it's
1hr, 90miles return by car [45p per mile = £40]

I do get reasonable value from the railcard, but with so many other
cards, subscriptions, bills etc to pay on virtually a daily basis, this
one wasn't near the top of my priority list.

Post by Ken
The COVID thing was unreasonable behaviour by the authorities but
there's no point in cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is ever
done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in fares that they
usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30. Something like forcing an
immediate purchase of a railcard at a higher cost, or for a recently
outdated card (eg a month) forcing the purchase of a new railcard with just
11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based on
their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior Railcard for
a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it once every other
year.
The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone I
don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I fished
it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around trying to find
the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such a fuss about [not]
issuing plastic ones.
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism. If you had a plastic card would you
have it ready to show the gripper when travelling on a ticket you’d bought
with it; or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of one of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one? In that situation I’d
expect the gripper to be ready to excess you, or even fine you, for
deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

Sam

[Roland Perry]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is
ever done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in
fares that they usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30.
Something like forcing an immediate purchase of a railcard at a
higher cost, or for a recently outdated card (eg a month) forcing
the purchase of a new railcard with just 11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based on
their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior Railcard for
a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it once every other
year.
The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone I
don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I fished
it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around trying to find
the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such a fuss about [not]
issuing plastic ones.
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of one of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
The whole invalid railcard thing is daft. The worst the railway is
ever done out of is the cost of the card, not the difference in
fares that they usually claim, plus a penalty. So around £30.
Something like forcing an immediate purchase of a railcard at a
higher cost, or for a recently outdated card (eg a month) forcing
the purchase of a new railcard with just 11 months validity.

The problem with that is too many people would game the system, and
refrain from renewing at all on the basis they were unlikely to be
caught.

Rather depends on the efficiency of ticket inspection.

Of course it does, but people will still game the situation based on
their experience (which varies by flow). I've had a Senior Railcard for
a decade now, and have probably been asked to show it once every other
year.
The most recent was autumn last year, and because it's on a phone I
don't carry for day to day use, the gripper had to wait while I fished
it out of my backpack, turned it on, then rummaged around trying to find
the correct app. If only they didn't make quite such a fuss about [not]
issuing plastic ones.
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of one of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

Sam

[Roland Perry]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of one of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.

Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Bad they don't ask you at the barrier.

[Marland]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of one of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

FFS. They don’t appear as if they have been beamed down from the
starship enterprise,
their presence is usually noticeable by other passengers getting their
documentation or devices ready as they make their way along the train. So
are you so unobservant that you could not start to get your spare phone
ready.
Why should you ?because it is a requirement of having the railcard that it
can be presented and just because you are being so precious and not being
prepared is down to you even though on many occasions it is not asked for.
Did you not bother to insure your house on the principle you don’t need to
claim very often.

You must be like those old biddies whose purse is at the bottom of their
bag or basket at the supermarket checkout which they have to ferret around
to find despite a lifetime of realising they have to pay so hold everyone
up.
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

GH

[Recliner]

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of one of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

FFS. They don’t appear as if they have been beamed down from the
starship enterprise,
their presence is usually noticeable by other passengers getting their
documentation or devices ready as they make their way along the train. So
are you so unobservant that you could not start to get your spare phone
ready.
Why should you ?because it is a requirement of having the railcard that it
can be presented and just because you are being so precious and not being
prepared is down to you even though on many occasions it is not asked for.
Did you not bother to insure your house on the principle you don’t need to
claim very often.
You must be like those old biddies whose purse is at the bottom of their
bag or basket at the supermarket checkout which they have to ferret around
to find despite a lifetime of realising they have to pay so hold everyone
up.
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

Yes, I don’t know of any normal person who has multiple personal phones,
with their apps spread inconveniently across them. Plenty of people need to
have a separate work phone, and same may have two, but not multiple
personal phones. Roland seems to go out of his way to make all his
experiences of technology as unpleasant as possible. And, no, it’s not
because he’s a professional reviewer of cheap gizmos—those days were
decades ago.

[Marland]

Post by Recliner

Post by Marland
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

Yes, I don’t know of any normal person who has multiple personal phones,
with their apps spread inconveniently across them. Plenty of people need to
have a separate work phone, and same may have two, but not multiple
personal phones. Roland seems to go out of his way to make all his
experiences of technology as unpleasant as possible. And, no, it’s not
because he’s a professional reviewer of cheap gizmos—those days were
decades ago.

Having lost two Jags Prescott perhaps we can have Polyphone Perry as a
replacement.

GH

[Roland Perry]

Post by Marland

Post by Recliner

Post by Marland
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

Yes, I don’t know of any normal person who has multiple personal phones,
with their apps spread inconveniently across them. Plenty of people need to
have a separate work phone, and same may have two, but not multiple
personal phones. Roland seems to go out of his way to make all his
experiences of technology as unpleasant as possible. And, no, it’s not
because he’s a professional reviewer of cheap gizmos—those days were
decades ago.

Having lost two Jags Prescott perhaps we can have Polyphone Perry as a
replacement.

And that's just Android phones. I resist all nagging to get an iPhone.
But for a while I did have both, and of course a Windows phone, but
never a Blackberry.

There are some cracks emerging, last week I found an app which runs
on Android, but communicates to the iPhone data cloud, which I wasn't
expecting to be available. Bad news, I deleted it because for minimal
functionality they wanted £10/month subscription.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner
I don’t know of any normal person who has multiple personal phones,
with their apps spread inconveniently across them. Plenty of people need to
have a separate work phone, and same may have two, but not multiple
personal phones. Roland seems to go out of his way to make all his
experiences of technology as unpleasant as possible.

As diverse as possible, for example having three mobile phone SIMs,
which tends to require three phones given how few are dual-SIM.

I'm using three laptops and four desktops at the moment, which I agree
is a bit excessive. But until I get a reliable Win7 VM to run under
Win11, it's not going to improve any time soon.

Post by Recliner
And, no, it’s not because he’s a professional reviewer of cheap
gizmos - those days were decades ago.

Today I review expensive gizmos, and I didn't really ever review cheap
ones, depending on your definition. Typically about a day's average
wages, so people did need to be able to read about them before buying a
pig in a poke.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of
of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

FFS. They don’t appear as if they have been beamed down from the
starship enterprise,

Actually, they do. Especially given they are present at all in maybe one
train in twenty, and then only ask for railcards one time in ten.

Post by Marland
their presence is usually noticeable by other passengers getting their
documentation or devices ready as they make their way along the train. So
are you so unobservant that you could not start to get your spare phone
ready.

Modern train interiors don't usually give visibility more than a couple
of rows in the direction you are facing. And despite rumours to the
contrary, I don't have eyes in the back of my head.

Post by Marland
Why should you ?because it is a requirement of having the railcard that it
can be presented

And I can.

Post by Marland
and just because you are being so precious and not being
prepared is down to you even though on many occasions it is not asked for.

Why should I get my spare phone out, and powered up for the whole trip,
just on this off-chance?

Post by Marland
Did you not bother to insure your house on the principle you don’t need to
claim very often.

No, but neither do I expect to be able to produce the policy document in
seconds, rather than perhaps five minutes.

Post by Marland
You must be like those old biddies whose purse is at the bottom of their
bag or basket at the supermarket checkout which they have to ferret around
to find despite a lifetime of realising they have to pay so hold everyone
up.

But they have to pay every time. I'm not asked to show a railcard every
time.

Post by Marland
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.

Personal abuse. Excellent!

Post by Marland
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

There's few apps on my regular phone that haven't been foisted on me
by people who insist (to take a recent example) I add a unique one to
control a dimmable light bulb. Or pay some road toll, or set the time on
my smart watch (something you can't do with the UI actually on the
watch).

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of
of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

FFS. They don’t appear as if they have been beamed down from the
starship enterprise,

Actually, they do. Especially given they are present at all in maybe one
train in twenty, and then only ask for railcards one time in ten.

Post by Marland
their presence is usually noticeable by other passengers getting their
documentation or devices ready as they make their way along the train. So
are you so unobservant that you could not start to get your spare phone
ready.

Modern train interiors don't usually give visibility more than a couple
of rows in the direction you are facing. And despite rumours to the
contrary, I don't have eyes in the back of my head.

Post by Marland
Why should you ?because it is a requirement of having the railcard that it
can be presented

And I can.

Post by Marland
and just because you are being so precious and not being
prepared is down to you even though on many occasions it is not asked for.

Why should I get my spare phone out, and powered up for the whole trip,
just on this off-chance?

Post by Marland
Did you not bother to insure your house on the principle you don’t need to
claim very often.

No, but neither do I expect to be able to produce the policy document in
seconds, rather than perhaps five minutes.

Post by Marland
You must be like those old biddies whose purse is at the bottom of their
bag or basket at the supermarket checkout which they have to ferret around
to find despite a lifetime of realising they have to pay so hold everyone
up.

But they have to pay every time. I'm not asked to show a railcard every
time.

Post by Marland
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.

Personal abuse. Excellent!

Post by Marland
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

There's few apps on my regular phone that haven't been foisted on me
by people who insist (to take a recent example) I add a unique one to
control a dimmable light bulb. Or pay some road toll, or set the time on
my smart watch (something you can't do with the UI actually on the
watch).

Does your regular phone have some unique limit on the number of apps it can
have?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner
Does your regular phone have some unique limit on the number of apps it can
have?

Only in the sense that once one has three hundred they get very
difficult to find on the UI (which has 20 per screen).

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Does your regular phone have some unique limit on the number of apps it can
have?

Only in the sense that once one has three hundred they get very
difficult to find on the UI

Put related apps in groups then. Push rarely used apps on to later screens.
And dump those you no longer use.

Post by Roland Perry
(which has 20 per screen).

Do you have a petite model with a small screen?

[Clank]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Does your regular phone have some unique limit on the number of apps
it can have?

Only in the sense that once one has three hundred they get very
difficult to find on the UI

Put related apps in groups then. Push rarely used apps on to later screens.
And dump those you no longer use.

Post by Roland Perry
(which has 20 per screen).

Do you have a petite model with a small screen?

I just checked my daily-driver* phone, apparently I have 445 apps which
surprised even me (I'm guessing you can knock that down by about 50 for
things like internal frameworks that appear as 'apps' in the relevant
settings page, but even so.)

I have no trouble managing them across around a dozen screens, through the
judicious use of "folders", as you say.


* I *do* have a second phone, but that's my phone for China, which is a
fairly niche use-case to need a second phone. (Apart from allowing me to
keep my Chinese phone number active and use my China banking apps, WeChat
et al, it also allows me to keep my other phone turned off and not
downloading any dubious updates while I'm there...)

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Does your regular phone have some unique limit on the number of apps it can
have?

Only in the sense that once one has three hundred they get very
difficult to find on the UI

Put related apps in groups then. Push rarely used apps on to later screens.
And dump those you no longer use.

Yes, I have some apps in groups, but the majority don't have a
sufficiently obvious common purpose to be able to group.

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
(which has 20 per screen).

Do you have a petite model with a small screen?

It's a large Android phone, and that's the number they put on each
screen.

[Ken]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Does your regular phone have some unique limit on the number of apps it can
have?

Only in the sense that once one has three hundred they get very
difficult to find on the UI (which has 20 per screen).

Don't your Androids have the feature where you swipe up on the home
screen and get shown ALL installed apps in alphabetical order? It can
be handy. Or just start typing the app name into the Google search
widget. That'll find apps as well as web search results.

[Mark Goodge]

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Does your regular phone have some unique limit on the number of apps it can
have?

Only in the sense that once one has three hundred they get very
difficult to find on the UI (which has 20 per screen).

Don't your Androids have the feature where you swipe up on the home
screen and get shown ALL installed apps in alphabetical order? It can
be handy. Or just start typing the app name into the Google search
widget. That'll find apps as well as web search results.

All of my Android phones have had the "swipe up for an alphabetical list"
facility. But Android is very customisable, so it wouldn't surprise me if
some manufacturers removed that feature. (Although, of course, the flipside
of that is that users can always reinstall it if they want).

I rarely, if ever, have to use that feature, though, because I group all my
commonly used (and even uncommonly used, but important) apps in folders on
the home screen. I don't like letting apps spill over sideways onto
secondary home screens so that I have to swipe right to find them, they're
either directly on the home screen (for very commonly used ones) or in
folders on the home screen, or, for rarely used apps, accessed if necessary
via the alphabetical list.

I don't have a Google search widget on my home screen. If I want to search
the web I'll start by opening a browser, and I've never had a situation
where I need to search the phone itself. I use the space on the home screen
for a weather widget, which is much more useful.

Mark

[Ken]

On Wed, 05 Feb 2025 11:05:15 +0000, Mark Goodge

Post by Mark Goodge
I don't have a Google search widget on my home screen. If I want to search
the web I'll start by opening a browser, and I've never had a situation
where I need to search the phone itself. I use the space on the home screen
for a weather widget, which is much more useful.
Mark

You use your phone's UI in a very different way to me!

Home screen:

Met Office
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)
Shazam (infrequent but used at short notice)
Calendar
To Do
OS Maps
Google Maps
News group (BBC and Sky atm)
Travel group (multiple, including National Rail, Greater Anglia,
various other train and bus planning/tracking apps)
Google (loads of their stuff)
Messaging (SMS, Whatsapp, Messenger)
Mail (Gmail with four accounts, Outlook with two)
Social (Threads, Medium, Reddit, Quora)

On the shelf at the bottom you'll find Phone, Chrome, Camera,
Pictures.

I have other important stuff on the second screen: a group for all the
financial apps I use, others for the large number of ToCs I don't use
regularly, Hotels, Microsoft apps, Music & Video.

There are a few other apps I use quite often such as NHS. Others, such
as my car breakdown service and parking apps, I remove from the main
screens and rely on search or swipe up for the odd times I need them.

Flexible stuff, this Android.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

[Alan Jones]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Some phones still do include FM radio, but not always mentioned in the advertising.
For example, the Moto G14 is £70 at Argos and does have FM:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3360259

GSMArena list it in the specs:

https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g14-12447.php

Alan.

[Tweed]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Some phones still do include FM radio, but not always mentioned in the advertising.
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3360259
https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g14-12447.php
Alan.

Isn’t the problem that all phones with an integrated FM receiver require
headphones to be attached, which are used as the receiver antenna?

[Alan Jones]

Post by Tweed

Post by Alan Jones

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Some phones still do include FM radio, but not always mentioned in the advertising.
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3360259
https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g14-12447.php
Alan.

Isn’t the problem that all phones with an integrated FM receiver require
headphones to be attached, which are used as the receiver antenna?

Probably. The Moto G14 certainly requires headphones as an antenna, as did the Moto G4 before, which is why I personally don't use FM.
Do any phones have an integrated FM antenna?

Alan.

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Tweed

Post by Alan Jones

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Some phones still do include FM radio, but not always mentioned in the advertising.
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3360259
https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g14-12447.php
Alan.

Isn’t the problem that all phones with an integrated FM receiver require
headphones to be attached, which are used as the receiver antenna?

The E14 requires something to be attached to the headphone socket, and
the signal is not very good if that is only 1 inch long. You can use the
speakers, but not a bluetooth headset.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 12:59:34 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Alan Jones

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Some phones still do include FM radio, but not always mentioned in the

advertising.

Post by Alan Jones
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3360259
https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g14-12447.php
Alan.

Isn’t the problem that all phones with an integrated FM receiver require
headphones to be attached, which are used as the receiver antenna?

Not sure why thats a problem. I never understood the appeal of overpriced,
easily lost, piss poor audio quality, have to be charged up earbuds when you
can plug in some decent 'phones.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 12:49:17 +0000

Post by Alan Jones

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Some phones still do include FM radio, but not always mentioned in the advertising.
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3360259
https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g14-12447.php

Sure, there are a few usually cheap ones around. But Apple and Samsung (in
europe, elsewhere they do apparently) don't bother.

[Marland]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore .
The FM signals here are poor anyway apparently because the predominately
chalky ground doesn’t help propagation , an old fashioned transistor only
receives the stronger stations most of which don’t carry the sort of
programme we are interested in and even an aerial on the roof didn’t help
things much .
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

GH

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore .

Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

The FM signals here are poor anyway apparently because the predominately
chalky ground doesn’t help propagation , an old fashioned transistor only
receives the stronger stations most of which don’t carry the sort of
programme we are interested in and even an aerial on the roof didn’t help
things much .

There's always DAB. No reason that couldn't be installed in phones too but
for whatever reason manufacturers have never been interested. The days of
requiring a large battery to power a DAB chipset is long gone.

So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore .

Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 15:09:44 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now

when

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore

.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing broadcast
audio but no one seems to care about that.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 15:09:44 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now

when

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore

.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing broadcast
audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

I suspect when a tx needs major work done they will just be quietly
taken out of service.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:07:52 +0000

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing

broadcast

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

An FM TX is a pretty simple device and you can buy a hundred watt one off the
shelf for a few hundred quid which will cover probably 100 square miles if
sited correctly. A full fat IP router is not, costs thousands and will have
a max connection limit plus uses a relatively large amount of power.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
I suspect when a tx needs major work done they will just be quietly
taken out of service.

The AM ones already have. Capital Gold disappeared years ago from 1548, LBC
switched off 1152 last year and all the BBC locals are slowly losing their
AM TXs which is bloody annoying as I used to be able to pick up BBC Kent
as far south as Rouen. Also in France both France Inter and France Info have
gone from LW. Also annoying as I used to listen to then here.

[Clank]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:07:52 +0000 Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing

broadcast

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

An FM TX is a pretty simple device and you can buy a hundred watt one
off the shelf for a few hundred quid which will cover probably 100
square miles if sited correctly. A full fat IP router is not, costs
thousands and will have a max connection limit plus uses a relatively
large amount of power.

In one of my previous media jobs (before I went to Sky) I had a radio
station under my list of problems. The power bill for transmission was
*eye watering* and by some distance our largest single expense. The cost
of CDNs etc. for internet delivery were a decimal point by comparison.

(One of the other larger expenses were the euphemistic "security fees,"
which was code for "paying the various paramilitary groups not to torch
the thing" for the transmitter in Northern Ireland... Which while being a
very particular case it does nevertheless illustrate that in addition to
power bills there are significant infrastructure costs for traditional
radio broadcasting as well.)

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 06:02:15 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Clank

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:07:52 +0000 Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing

broadcast

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

An FM TX is a pretty simple device and you can buy a hundred watt one
off the shelf for a few hundred quid which will cover probably 100
square miles if sited correctly. A full fat IP router is not, costs
thousands and will have a max connection limit plus uses a relatively
large amount of power.

In one of my previous media jobs (before I went to Sky) I had a radio
station under my list of problems. The power bill for transmission was
*eye watering* and by some distance our largest single expense. The cost

God knows why. When I did student radio we did an RSL every year. Switched
the FM transmitter on, cost buttons to run, switched it off again at the end
of the month. The most expensive part IIRC was the license.

What power was this station running, megawatts?

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 15:09:44 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now

when

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore

.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing broadcast
audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

In network terms it’s inefficient to send the same stream of data in
parallel to lots of different clients. Internet multicast, where a server
sends out a single stream and it’s duplicated at branches where clients
request it, is much more efficient, but it’s complicated to implement and
raises a host of security issues. Although Wikipedia claims that IP
multicast is in widespread use in a number of niche situations, I suspect
that’s really been obsoleted by networked streaming services. And anyway
we’re talking here about audio broadcasting, which are dwarfed by streaming
video services.

Post by Graeme Wall
I suspect when a tx needs major work done they will just be quietly
taken out of service.

What a shame.

Sam

[Tweed]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 15:09:44 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now

when

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore

.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing broadcast
audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

In network terms it’s inefficient to send the same stream of data in
parallel to lots of different clients. Internet multicast, where a server
sends out a single stream and it’s duplicated at branches where clients
request it, is much more efficient, but it’s complicated to implement and
raises a host of security issues. Although Wikipedia claims that IP
multicast is in widespread use in a number of niche situations, I suspect
that’s really been obsoleted by networked streaming services. And anyway
we’re talking here about audio broadcasting, which are dwarfed by streaming
video services.

Post by Graeme Wall
I suspect when a tx needs major work done they will just be quietly
taken out of service.

What a shame.
Sam

I’m not so sure that the current cellular system would cope if every
operating car radio wanted a data stream. The existing networks rely on the
fact that most subscribers aren’t using the system (to any significant
extent) at any one time.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Tweed

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 15:09:44 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now

when

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore

.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing broadcast
audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

In network terms it’s inefficient to send the same stream of data in
parallel to lots of different clients. Internet multicast, where a server
sends out a single stream and it’s duplicated at branches where clients
request it, is much more efficient, but it’s complicated to implement and
raises a host of security issues. Although Wikipedia claims that IP
multicast is in widespread use in a number of niche situations, I suspect
that’s really been obsoleted by networked streaming services. And anyway
we’re talking here about audio broadcasting, which are dwarfed by streaming
video services.

Post by Graeme Wall
I suspect when a tx needs major work done they will just be quietly
taken out of service.

What a shame.
Sam

I’m not so sure that the current cellular system would cope if every
operating car radio wanted a data stream. The existing networks rely on the
fact that most subscribers aren’t using the system (to any significant
extent) at any one time.

That’s a good point. It probably also applies to WiFi networks, though of
course the available bandwidth is much higher in WiFi media, 5G possibly
excepted. Neither is good at broadcasting or multicasting.

Sam

[Clank]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Graeme Wall

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 15:09:44 +0000 Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM
radios in the phones rather than some data sucking app that
requires pointless registration in order to listen to stuff thats
free over the air. Not that the BBC are alone in that, News UK and
Global apps do the same shit now

when

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore

.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening
figures and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe.
Many other stations have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing
broadcast audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

In network terms it’s inefficient to send the same stream of data in
parallel to lots of different clients. Internet multicast, where a
server sends out a single stream and it’s duplicated at branches where
clients request it, is much more efficient, but it’s complicated to
implement and raises a host of security issues.

And what do you think traditional radio broadcasting does?

It doesn't just send the same stream of data to lots of different clients,
it sends it to lots of places where there are *no* clients interested in
receiving it. You take literally megawatts of power, and then blast it
out into the ether at full power on the offchance there is anybody around
to hear it.

And these days, it's fairly unlikely that there is.

(At least cellular radio systems only[^ note 1] transmit when there is
someone listening - and regulate the power of those transmissions to use
the minimum required.)

There is a lot to be said for traditional broadcasting, but efficient
isn't one of them.


I mean, to put some numbers on that, Radio 1 is currently blasting 4000
watts of power into the ether from Crystal Palace tower, 24 hours a day,
whether anyone listens or not. (As an aside - one analogue TV channel
from the same transmitter would have been broadcast at 1000 kW; digital is
a fraction of that but still big.)

But Radio 1 isn't just blasting those 4000 watts from Crystal Palace. The
Arqiva transmission network is 1,500 transmitters, approx. If every one
of those transmitters were broadcasting Radio 1, at the same power as
Crystal Palace (which they probably aren't of course - and many will be
transmitting much louder to cover big areas of low population, unlike
Crystal Palace which is practically the ideal spot for efficiency - but we
can get an order of magnitude), you're looking at in the order of 6
Megawatts of power being blasted into the atmosphere, 24x7, whether
anybody listens or not, for just one radio station. (I would say, while
this is of course the back of an envelope calculation, it's in the right
kind of order of magnitude to match the numbers on the eletricity bills
back in the day when I had a radio station to worry about.)

It's many things, but you call that *efficient*?




[^ note 1]: pedants, fuck off. Yes they transmit things like timing and
control signals all the time, but it's incredibly low-power and we can
ignore it for the comparison with broadcast radio.

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Clank

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Graeme Wall

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 15:09:44 +0000 Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM
radios in the phones rather than some data sucking app that
requires pointless registration in order to listen to stuff thats
free over the air. Not that the BBC are alone in that, News UK and
Global apps do the same shit now

when

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore

.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening
figures and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe.
Many other stations have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Some, not most. Plus its a hideously inefficient way of distributing
broadcast audio but no one seems to care about that.

It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

In network terms it’s inefficient to send the same stream of data in
parallel to lots of different clients. Internet multicast, where a
server sends out a single stream and it’s duplicated at branches where
clients request it, is much more efficient, but it’s complicated to
implement and raises a host of security issues.

And what do you think traditional radio broadcasting does?
It doesn't just send the same stream of data to lots of different clients,
it sends it to lots of places where there are *no* clients interested in
receiving it. You take literally megawatts of power, and then blast it
out into the ether at full power on the offchance there is anybody around
to hear it.

Well, not all the sound of civil defense or emergency sirens
goes into human ears...

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 06:31:07 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Clank
I mean, to put some numbers on that, Radio 1 is currently blasting 4000
watts of power into the ether from Crystal Palace tower, 24 hours a day,
whether anyone listens or not. (As an aside - one analogue TV channel
from the same transmitter would have been broadcast at 1000 kW; digital is
a fraction of that but still big.)

Wow, a whole 4KW to serve probably 10-20 million people. Thats probably
not much more than the heating in the studio. A top end router alone probably
uses 1KW and thats before you factor in the intermediate bridges, gateways,
boosters and the client devices at the end of the line.

Post by Clank
It's many things, but you call that *efficient*?

Radio broadcasting is probably THE most efficient way to get to a lot of
people at the same time.

[Clank]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 06:31:07 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Clank
I mean, to put some numbers on that, Radio 1 is currently blasting 4000
watts of power into the ether from Crystal Palace tower, 24 hours a day,
whether anyone listens or not. (As an aside - one analogue TV channel
from the same transmitter would have been broadcast at 1000 kW; digital
is a fraction of that but still big.)

Wow, a whole 4KW to serve probably 10-20 million people. Thats probably
not much more than the heating in the studio. A top end router alone
probably uses 1KW and thats before you factor in the intermediate
bridges, gateways, boosters and the client devices at the end of the
line.

How many of those approximately 10 million people covered by Crystal
Palace do you think are actually listening to that particular radio
frequency at any one time?

Clue: Radio One's *peak* *national* audience is about 5 million.


And Radio 1 from Crystal Palace is your absolute best-case for proving the
efficiency of radio.

Now think of Burghead transmitter in Moray. That's transmitting BBC Radio
4 at *50,000 watts* to serve a population of approximately two sheep and a
dog in comparison. Almost all of the other 1,498 other transmitters are
similar transmitting much higher power for much smaller audiences than
Crystal Palace.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Clank
It's many things, but you call that *efficient*?

Radio broadcasting is probably THE most efficient way to get to a lot of
people at the same time.

In terms of spectrum and power use, it's pretty horribly inefficient. But
yes, there *is* a tipping point where "everybody needs to receive the same
content at exactly the same time" will tip it over into being better than
narrowcasting.

It's just that tipping point is almost certainly never actually hit any
more. The days of everybody in the country huddling around the wireless
to listen to the King are long-gone.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 10:40:17 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Clank

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 06:31:07 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Clank
I mean, to put some numbers on that, Radio 1 is currently blasting 4000
watts of power into the ether from Crystal Palace tower, 24 hours a day,
whether anyone listens or not. (As an aside - one analogue TV channel
from the same transmitter would have been broadcast at 1000 kW; digital
is a fraction of that but still big.)

Wow, a whole 4KW to serve probably 10-20 million people. Thats probably
not much more than the heating in the studio. A top end router alone
probably uses 1KW and thats before you factor in the intermediate
bridges, gateways, boosters and the client devices at the end of the
line.

How many of those approximately 10 million people covered by Crystal
Palace do you think are actually listening to that particular radio
frequency at any one time?
Clue: Radio One's *peak* *national* audience is about 5 million.

Even if its only 10K at any given time in London it will still be more
efficient that all those people listening via a stream. Assuming listening
on phones and not a power sucking PC, the phones themselves will probably be
using 1-5W to stream the data so best case thats 10KW for the phones alone
before you factor in any infrastructure! If they were all listening on a PC
you can multiply that 10KW by 100.

Post by Clank
Now think of Burghead transmitter in Moray. That's transmitting BBC Radio
4 at *50,000 watts* to serve a population of approximately two sheep and a
dog in comparison. Almost all of the other 1,498 other transmitters are
similar transmitting much higher power for much smaller audiences than
Crystal Palace.

Perhaps smaller fill-in TX would be a better solution in thoe cases then.

Post by Clank

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Radio broadcasting is probably THE most efficient way to get to a lot of
people at the same time.

In terms of spectrum and power use, it's pretty horribly inefficient. But

Depends on TX power. 100W will easily get you to the horizon with a decent
signal if there's no clutter in the way.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 10:40:17 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Clank

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 06:31:07 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Clank
I mean, to put some numbers on that, Radio 1 is currently blasting 4000
watts of power into the ether from Crystal Palace tower, 24 hours a day,
whether anyone listens or not. (As an aside - one analogue TV channel
from the same transmitter would have been broadcast at 1000 kW; digital
is a fraction of that but still big.)

Wow, a whole 4KW to serve probably 10-20 million people. Thats probably
not much more than the heating in the studio. A top end router alone
probably uses 1KW and thats before you factor in the intermediate
bridges, gateways, boosters and the client devices at the end of the
line.

How many of those approximately 10 million people covered by Crystal
Palace do you think are actually listening to that particular radio
frequency at any one time?
Clue: Radio One's *peak* *national* audience is about 5 million.

Even if its only 10K at any given time in London it will still be more
efficient that all those people listening via a stream. Assuming listening
on phones and not a power sucking PC, the phones themselves will probably be
using 1-5W to stream the data so best case thats 10KW for the phones alone
before you factor in any infrastructure! If they were all listening on a PC
you can multiply that 10KW by 100.

Post by Clank
Now think of Burghead transmitter in Moray. That's transmitting BBC Radio
4 at *50,000 watts* to serve a population of approximately two sheep and a
dog in comparison. Almost all of the other 1,498 other transmitters are
similar transmitting much higher power for much smaller audiences than
Crystal Palace.

Perhaps smaller fill-in TX would be a better solution in thoe cases then.

Post by Clank

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Radio broadcasting is probably THE most efficient way to get to a lot of
people at the same time.

In terms of spectrum and power use, it's pretty horribly inefficient. But

Depends on TX power. 100W will easily get you to the horizon with a decent
signal if there's no clutter in the way.

My horizon is about 300 metres away.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Clank
Now think of Burghead transmitter in Moray. That's transmitting BBC Radio
4 at *50,000 watts* to serve a population of approximately two sheep and a
dog in comparison.

Hey, I've been to Burghead, there's at least three dogs there, don't
remember any sheep though.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:40:13 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Graeme Wall
It's a very efficient way, much easier and cheaper than keeping
transmitters operating around the country.

In network terms it’s inefficient to send the same stream of data in
parallel to lots of different clients. Internet multicast, where a server
sends out a single stream and it’s duplicated at branches where clients
request it, is much more efficient, but it’s complicated to implement and
raises a host of security issues. Although Wikipedia claims that IP
multicast is in widespread use in a number of niche situations, I suspect
that’s really been obsoleted by networked streaming services. And anyway
we’re talking here about audio broadcasting, which are dwarfed by streaming
video services.

Multicast only works on LANs AFAIK because the 224.x.x.x address space isn't
routed. I could be wrong however though god knows how any routing would be
done. without blasting packets all over the place.

[ColinR]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore .

Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Yep, but internet streaming is still live (albeit a few seconds late) so
not relevant when answering a comment "most of our listening isn’t done
live anymore"

[Graeme Wall]

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore .

Who's "we". The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Those figures include internet streaming these days.

Yep, but internet streaming is still live (albeit a few seconds late) so
not relevant when answering a comment "most of our listening isn’t done
live anymore"

I was commenting on the listening figures, but that can include people
time-shifting as well.

[ColinR]

On 06/02/2025 15:07, ***@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
[snip]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
There's always DAB. No reason that couldn't be installed in phones too but
for whatever reason manufacturers have never been interested. The days of
requiring a large battery to power a DAB chipset is long gone.

Do you recall we were being persuaded to go from AM to FM "for better
quality and no loss of signal in tunnels". Then exactly the same
persuation to go from FM to DAB.

I have yet to find DAB being any better than FM, in fact it breaks up
more when driving down south. (Next to no DAB in Shetland, Beeb only, so
cannot comment locally!)

[Graeme Wall]

Post by ColinR
[snip]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
There's always DAB. No reason that couldn't be installed in phones too but
for whatever reason manufacturers have never been interested. The days of
requiring a large battery to power a DAB chipset is long gone.

Do you recall we were being persuaded to go from AM to FM "for better
quality and no loss of signal in tunnels". Then exactly the same
persuation to go from FM to DAB.
I have yet to find DAB being any better than FM, in fact it breaks up
more when driving down south. (Next to no DAB in Shetland, Beeb only, so
cannot comment locally!)

DAB has the standard broadcast digital problem that when the signal
strength drops it just gives up whereas the analogue FM services
degrades more gracefully.

[Tweed]

Post by ColinR
[snip]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
There's always DAB. No reason that couldn't be installed in phones too but
for whatever reason manufacturers have never been interested. The days of
requiring a large battery to power a DAB chipset is long gone.

Do you recall we were being persuaded to go from AM to FM "for better
quality and no loss of signal in tunnels". Then exactly the same
persuation to go from FM to DAB.
I have yet to find DAB being any better than FM, in fact it breaks up
more when driving down south. (Next to no DAB in Shetland, Beeb only, so
cannot comment locally!)

The problem is there is DAB and there is DAB. The BBC have done it properly
and have lots of low power transmitters. Some of the commercial multiplexes
only have relatively few transmitters. So if you listen to a station on
that you think DAB is awful and lacks coverage. Times Radio, for example,
suffers from this. It vanishes just north of Newcastle and doesn’t reappear
until approaching Edinburgh. Also barely works in hilly Devon. BBC stations
are rock solid throughout. DAB relies on summing together signals from
multiple transmitters - if you skimp on that the results are disappointing.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 16:56:17 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Tweed

Post by ColinR
[snip]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
There's always DAB. No reason that couldn't be installed in phones too but
for whatever reason manufacturers have never been interested. The days of
requiring a large battery to power a DAB chipset is long gone.

Do you recall we were being persuaded to go from AM to FM "for better
quality and no loss of signal in tunnels". Then exactly the same
persuation to go from FM to DAB.
I have yet to find DAB being any better than FM, in fact it breaks up
more when driving down south. (Next to no DAB in Shetland, Beeb only, so
cannot comment locally!)

The problem is there is DAB and there is DAB. The BBC have done it properly
and have lots of low power transmitters. Some of the commercial multiplexes
only have relatively few transmitters. So if you listen to a station on
that you think DAB is awful and lacks coverage. Times Radio, for example,
suffers from this. It vanishes just north of Newcastle and doesn’t reappear
until approaching Edinburgh. Also barely works in hilly Devon. BBC stations
are rock solid throughout. DAB relies on summing together signals from
multiple transmitters - if you skimp on that the results are disappointing.

Times Radio disappears in and out in various parts of hertfordshire too only
just north of london, particularly in towns.

[Marland]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 14:16:07 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:01:26 +0000

Post by Ken
BBC Sounds (used all night every night and whenever I shower!)

Would be much more useful if phone manufacturers still included FM radios
in the phones rather than some data sucking app that requires pointless
registration in order to listen to stuff thats free over the air. Not that
the BBC are alone in that, News UK and Global apps do the same shit now when
previously they didn't so I deleted both. Their (advertisers) loss.

Can’t time shift with FM, most of our listening isn’t done live anymore .

Who's "we".

The missis and I

The Radio 2 breakfast show still gets 7 digit listening figures

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
and is biggest radio show by listener numbers in europe. Many other stations
have figures in 6 and 7 digits too.

Bit middle of the road for me.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
The FM signals here are poor anyway apparently because the predominately
chalky ground doesn’t help propagation , an old fashioned transistor only
receives the stronger stations most of which don’t carry the sort of
programme we are interested in and even an aerial on the roof didn’t help
things much .

There's always DAB. No reason that couldn't be installed in phones too but
for whatever reason manufacturers have never been interested. The days of
requiring a large battery to power a DAB chipset is long gone.

DAB signal is even worse , only available from a roof aerial . The car
picks it up if we travel a mile or so but frequently drops out until a lot
further into a journey , and it always drops out just when you get to a bit
you want to listen to.
And a good proportion of the stations have poor audio quality due to
squeezed bit rate or even just broadcast in Mono

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

Who else would I be speaking for.

The other 10% of listening is via Freeview which gets over the poor
reception problem but again some stations only have a mono channel.


GH

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On 6 Feb 2025 16:45:24 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

Who else would I be speaking for.
The other 10% of listening is via Freeview which gets over the poor
reception problem but again some stations only have a mono channel.

And you have to run the TV to listen to it. Not very energy efficient.
Why there arn't radios on sale with sound only freeview I've never understood.
Not only would be it useful for freeview radio stations but would be a cheap
alternative to a TV for blind people.

[Tweed]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 16:45:24 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

Who else would I be speaking for.
The other 10% of listening is via Freeview which gets over the poor
reception problem but again some stations only have a mono channel.

And you have to run the TV to listen to it. Not very energy efficient.
Why there arn't radios on sale with sound only freeview I've never understood.
Not only would be it useful for freeview radio stations but would be a cheap
alternative to a TV for blind people.

You can use a set top box and some speakers. TV signals don’t really lend
themselves to portable radio reception unless you are in a very strong
signal area.

An Internet radio, which can use WiFi and also tunes FM and DAB is probably
more useful to more people.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 10:37:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 16:45:24 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

Who else would I be speaking for.
The other 10% of listening is via Freeview which gets over the poor
reception problem but again some stations only have a mono channel.

And you have to run the TV to listen to it. Not very energy efficient.
Why there arn't radios on sale with sound only freeview I've never

understood.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Not only would be it useful for freeview radio stations but would be a cheap
alternative to a TV for blind people.

You can use a set top box and some speakers. TV signals don’t really lend

Do many set top boxes have hifi outputs any more? They're usually just HDMI.
Don't imagine many can drive smart speakers via bluetooth either.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
themselves to portable radio reception unless you are in a very strong
signal area.

There is that.

[Recliner]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 10:37:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 16:45:24 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

Who else would I be speaking for.
The other 10% of listening is via Freeview which gets over the poor
reception problem but again some stations only have a mono channel.

And you have to run the TV to listen to it. Not very energy efficient.
Why there arn't radios on sale with sound only freeview I've never

understood.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Not only would be it useful for freeview radio stations but would be a cheap
alternative to a TV for blind people.

You can use a set top box and some speakers. TV signals don’t really lend

Do many set top boxes have hifi outputs any more? They're usually just HDMI.
Don't imagine many can drive smart speakers via bluetooth either.

I just listen to radio in most rooms on my smart speakers. Simply say,
“Alexa, play Times Radio”, etc. No need to set anything up.

[M***@DastardlyHQ.org]

On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 10:48:30 GMT

Post by Recliner

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 10:37:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 16:45:24 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

Who else would I be speaking for.
The other 10% of listening is via Freeview which gets over the poor
reception problem but again some stations only have a mono channel.

And you have to run the TV to listen to it. Not very energy efficient.
Why there arn't radios on sale with sound only freeview I've never

understood.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Not only would be it useful for freeview radio stations but would be a

cheap

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
alternative to a TV for blind people.

You can use a set top box and some speakers. TV signals don’t really lend

Do many set top boxes have hifi outputs any more? They're usually just HDMI.
Don't imagine many can drive smart speakers via bluetooth either.

I just listen to radio in most rooms on my smart speakers. Simply say,
“Alexa, play Times Radio”, etc. No need to set anything up.

Ugh, smart speakers. Tinny mono reproduction using loudspeakers that are
probably the same that get shoved in budget kitchen radios.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 10:48:30 GMT

Post by Recliner

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 10:37:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 16:45:24 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

Who else would I be speaking for.
The other 10% of listening is via Freeview which gets over the poor
reception problem but again some stations only have a mono channel.

And you have to run the TV to listen to it. Not very energy efficient.
Why there arn't radios on sale with sound only freeview I've never

understood.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Not only would be it useful for freeview radio stations but would be a

cheap

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
alternative to a TV for blind people.

You can use a set top box and some speakers. TV signals don’t really lend

Do many set top boxes have hifi outputs any more? They're usually just HDMI.
Don't imagine many can drive smart speakers via bluetooth either.

I just listen to radio in most rooms on my smart speakers. Simply say,
“Alexa, play Times Radio”, etc. No need to set anything up.

Ugh, smart speakers. Tinny mono reproduction using loudspeakers that are
probably the same that get shoved in budget kitchen radios.

Good enough for Times radio.

[Recliner]

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 10:48:30 GMT

Post by Recliner

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 10:37:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On 6 Feb 2025 16:45:24 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by Marland
So 90% of our listening is done using the internet which overs listening
material from all over the place.

Speak for youself.

Who else would I be speaking for.
The other 10% of listening is via Freeview which gets over the poor
reception problem but again some stations only have a mono channel.

And you have to run the TV to listen to it. Not very energy efficient.
Why there arn't radios on sale with sound only freeview I've never

understood.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Not only would be it useful for freeview radio stations but would be a

cheap

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
alternative to a TV for blind people.

You can use a set top box and some speakers. TV signals don’t really lend

Do many set top boxes have hifi outputs any more? They're usually just HDMI.
Don't imagine many can drive smart speakers via bluetooth either.

I just listen to radio in most rooms on my smart speakers. Simply say,
“Alexa, play Times Radio”, etc. No need to set anything up.

Ugh, smart speakers. Tinny mono reproduction using loudspeakers that are
probably the same that get shoved in budget kitchen radios.

One of my smart speakers has stereo speakers, and all of them have
surprisingly good sound quality, better than any ordinary transistor radio.
In fact, by default, they have too much bass, and you need to turn it down.

[Roland Perry]

I group all my commonly used (and even uncommonly used, but important)
apps in folders on the home screen. I don't like letting apps spill
over sideways onto secondary home screens so that I have to swipe right
to find them

It may be a bug (although I'm on the latest version) but when an app is
updated, it gets chucked out of its group and placed on whichever screen
has a spare slot.

[ColinR]

Post by Roland Perry

I group all my commonly used (and even uncommonly used, but important)
apps in folders on the home screen. I don't like letting apps spill
over sideways onto secondary home screens so that I have to swipe
right to find them

It may be a bug (although I'm on the latest version) but when an app is
updated, it gets chucked out of its group and placed on whichever screen
has a spare slot.

Roland, I think it is a "feature" of Android, certainly happens to me.

[Clank]

Post by ColinR

Post by Roland Perry

I group all my commonly used (and even uncommonly used, but important)
apps in folders on the home screen. I don't like letting apps spill
over sideways onto secondary home screens so that I have to swipe
right to find them

It may be a bug (although I'm on the latest version) but when an app is
updated, it gets chucked out of its group and placed on whichever
screen has a spare slot.

Roland, I think it is a "feature" of Android, certainly happens to me.

Odd. It certainly doesn't on my Samsung phones. Or my Chinese (Xiaomi)
phone either, for that matter.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ken

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Does your regular phone have some unique limit on the number of apps it can
have?

Only in the sense that once one has three hundred they get very
difficult to find on the UI (which has 20 per screen).

Don't your Androids have the feature where you swipe up on the home
screen and get shown ALL installed apps in alphabetical order? It can
be handy. Or just start typing the app name into the Google search
widget. That'll find apps as well as web search results.

The problem with that is you have to know the crazy unintuitive name
they gave the app.

[Marland]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of
of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

FFS. They don’t appear as if they have been beamed down from the
starship enterprise,

Actually, they do. Especially given they are present at all in maybe one
train in twenty, and then only ask for railcards one time in ten.

Post by Marland
their presence is usually noticeable by other passengers getting their
documentation or devices ready as they make their way along the train. So
are you so unobservant that you could not start to get your spare phone
ready.

Modern train interiors don't usually give visibility more than a couple
of rows in the direction you are facing. And despite rumours to the
contrary, I don't have eyes in the back of my head.

I appreciate the trains you travel on may have fewer passenger numbers but
on the West of England line of SWR the grippers if they find some one is
having trouble locating their ticket or cards don’t stand over them while
they search nervously but move on to more prepared passengers with a polite
“ I’ll come back in a few minutes “ or similar , this takes the immediate
pressure off the passenger some of which get a bit flustered and benefits
the grippers who are not stood there wasting time.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
Why should you ?because it is a requirement of having the railcard that it
can be presented

And I can.

Post by Marland
and just because you are being so precious and not being
prepared is down to you even though on many occasions it is not asked for.

Why should I get my spare phone out, and powered up for the whole trip,
just on this off-chance?

Because you are on a train where a ticket and card check should be
expected even if it doesn’t take place.
There are lots of situations in life like that, I could regularly approach
a local roundabout at silly but within the limit speed because a
vehicle coming from my right only happens about 1 in 50 times,
What if I was to do that and and a vehicle does appear and I hit it because
I can’t stop.
Saying “sorry mate , why should I slow down as the the off chance someone
may actually appear is rare ” isn’t going to wash with the insurance and
possibly police.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.

Personal abuse. Excellent!

occasionally you deserve it, this is one of them.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

There's few apps on my regular phone that haven't been foisted on me
by people who insist (to take a recent example) I add a unique one to
control a dimmable light bulb. Or pay some road toll, or set the time on
my smart watch (something you can't do with the UI actually on the
watch).

1st world problems, you know you are going to travel on a train for awhile
before the journey so get your card available in advance. Just because
you don’t want to doesn’t justify your whinging about it being awkward to
access when it does get asked for .

GH

[Tweed]

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of
of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

FFS. They don’t appear as if they have been beamed down from the
starship enterprise,

Actually, they do. Especially given they are present at all in maybe one
train in twenty, and then only ask for railcards one time in ten.

Post by Marland
their presence is usually noticeable by other passengers getting their
documentation or devices ready as they make their way along the train. So
are you so unobservant that you could not start to get your spare phone
ready.

Modern train interiors don't usually give visibility more than a couple
of rows in the direction you are facing. And despite rumours to the
contrary, I don't have eyes in the back of my head.

I appreciate the trains you travel on may have fewer passenger numbers but
on the West of England line of SWR the grippers if they find some one is
having trouble locating their ticket or cards don’t stand over them while
they search nervously but move on to more prepared passengers with a polite
“ I’ll come back in a few minutes “ or similar , this takes the immediate
pressure off the passenger some of which get a bit flustered and benefits
the grippers who are not stood there wasting time.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
Why should you ?because it is a requirement of having the railcard that it
can be presented

And I can.

Post by Marland
and just because you are being so precious and not being
prepared is down to you even though on many occasions it is not asked for.

Why should I get my spare phone out, and powered up for the whole trip,
just on this off-chance?

Because you are on a train where a ticket and card check should be
expected even if it doesn’t take place.
There are lots of situations in life like that, I could regularly approach
a local roundabout at silly but within the limit speed because a
vehicle coming from my right only happens about 1 in 50 times,
What if I was to do that and and a vehicle does appear and I hit it because
I can’t stop.
Saying “sorry mate , why should I slow down as the the off chance someone
may actually appear is rare ” isn’t going to wash with the insurance and
possibly police.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.

Personal abuse. Excellent!

occasionally you deserve it, this is one of them.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

There's few apps on my regular phone that haven't been foisted on me
by people who insist (to take a recent example) I add a unique one to
control a dimmable light bulb. Or pay some road toll, or set the time on
my smart watch (something you can't do with the UI actually on the
watch).

1st world problems, you know you are going to travel on a train for awhile
before the journey so get your card available in advance. Just because
you don’t want to doesn’t justify your whinging about it being awkward to
access when it does get asked for .
GH

Or simply be a helpful and polite passenger by always presenting your
railcard with your ticket to the gripper. It’s what I do. Why make a
gripper’s job harder than it needs to be?

[Marland]

Post by Tweed

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of
of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

FFS. They don’t appear as if they have been beamed down from the
starship enterprise,

Actually, they do. Especially given they are present at all in maybe one
train in twenty, and then only ask for railcards one time in ten.

Post by Marland
their presence is usually noticeable by other passengers getting their
documentation or devices ready as they make their way along the train. So
are you so unobservant that you could not start to get your spare phone
ready.

Modern train interiors don't usually give visibility more than a couple
of rows in the direction you are facing. And despite rumours to the
contrary, I don't have eyes in the back of my head.

I appreciate the trains you travel on may have fewer passenger numbers but
on the West of England line of SWR the grippers if they find some one is
having trouble locating their ticket or cards don’t stand over them while
they search nervously but move on to more prepared passengers with a polite
“ I’ll come back in a few minutes “ or similar , this takes the immediate
pressure off the passenger some of which get a bit flustered and benefits
the grippers who are not stood there wasting time.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
Why should you ?because it is a requirement of having the railcard that it
can be presented

And I can.

Post by Marland
and just because you are being so precious and not being
prepared is down to you even though on many occasions it is not asked for.

Why should I get my spare phone out, and powered up for the whole trip,
just on this off-chance?

Because you are on a train where a ticket and card check should be
expected even if it doesn’t take place.
There are lots of situations in life like that, I could regularly approach
a local roundabout at silly but within the limit speed because a
vehicle coming from my right only happens about 1 in 50 times,
What if I was to do that and and a vehicle does appear and I hit it because
I can’t stop.
Saying “sorry mate , why should I slow down as the the off chance someone
may actually appear is rare ” isn’t going to wash with the insurance and
possibly police.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.

Personal abuse. Excellent!

occasionally you deserve it, this is one of them.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

There's few apps on my regular phone that haven't been foisted on me
by people who insist (to take a recent example) I add a unique one to
control a dimmable light bulb. Or pay some road toll, or set the time on
my smart watch (something you can't do with the UI actually on the
watch).

1st world problems, you know you are going to travel on a train for awhile
before the journey so get your card available in advance. Just because
you don’t want to doesn’t justify your whinging about it being awkward to
access when it does get asked for .
GH

Or simply be a helpful and polite passenger by always presenting your
railcard with your ticket to the gripper. It’s what I do. Why make a
gripper’s job harder than it needs to be?

Same here but you need the physical one to do that and Roland has the
digital version,
as he seems to be so overloaded with apps that he needs more than one phone
.Not all apps such as the various parking payment ones can be dispensed
with but getting a physical railcard would save him searching for the one
on his overcrowded phone screens. It is a simple solution but Roland
appears to like doing things the hard way.

GH

[Tweed]

Post by Marland

Post by Tweed

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of
of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

FFS. They don’t appear as if they have been beamed down from the
starship enterprise,

Actually, they do. Especially given they are present at all in maybe one
train in twenty, and then only ask for railcards one time in ten.

Post by Marland
their presence is usually noticeable by other passengers getting their
documentation or devices ready as they make their way along the train. So
are you so unobservant that you could not start to get your spare phone
ready.

Modern train interiors don't usually give visibility more than a couple
of rows in the direction you are facing. And despite rumours to the
contrary, I don't have eyes in the back of my head.

I appreciate the trains you travel on may have fewer passenger numbers but
on the West of England line of SWR the grippers if they find some one is
having trouble locating their ticket or cards don’t stand over them while
they search nervously but move on to more prepared passengers with a polite
“ I’ll come back in a few minutes “ or similar , this takes the immediate
pressure off the passenger some of which get a bit flustered and benefits
the grippers who are not stood there wasting time.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
Why should you ?because it is a requirement of having the railcard that it
can be presented

And I can.

Post by Marland
and just because you are being so precious and not being
prepared is down to you even though on many occasions it is not asked for.

Why should I get my spare phone out, and powered up for the whole trip,
just on this off-chance?

Because you are on a train where a ticket and card check should be
expected even if it doesn’t take place.
There are lots of situations in life like that, I could regularly approach
a local roundabout at silly but within the limit speed because a
vehicle coming from my right only happens about 1 in 50 times,
What if I was to do that and and a vehicle does appear and I hit it because
I can’t stop.
Saying “sorry mate , why should I slow down as the the off chance someone
may actually appear is rare ” isn’t going to wash with the insurance and
possibly police.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.

Personal abuse. Excellent!

occasionally you deserve it, this is one of them.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
And having a spare phone because you are addicted to various apps is your
choice, its not normal behaviour .

There's few apps on my regular phone that haven't been foisted on me
by people who insist (to take a recent example) I add a unique one to
control a dimmable light bulb. Or pay some road toll, or set the time on
my smart watch (something you can't do with the UI actually on the
watch).

1st world problems, you know you are going to travel on a train for awhile
before the journey so get your card available in advance. Just because
you don’t want to doesn’t justify your whinging about it being awkward to
access when it does get asked for .
GH

Or simply be a helpful and polite passenger by always presenting your
railcard with your ticket to the gripper. It’s what I do. Why make a
gripper’s job harder than it needs to be?

Same here but you need the physical one to do that and Roland has the
digital version,
as he seems to be so overloaded with apps that he needs more than one phone
.Not all apps such as the various parking payment ones can be dispensed
with but getting a physical railcard would save him searching for the one
on his overcrowded phone screens. It is a simple solution but Roland
appears to like doing things the hard way.
GH

You can have the digital railcard ready for the gripper.

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland
You must be like those old biddies whose purse is at the bottom of their
bag or basket at the supermarket checkout which they have to ferret around
to find despite a lifetime of realising they have to pay so hold everyone
up.

But they have to pay every time. I'm not asked to show a railcard every
time.

Post by Marland
Arguing about there being no specific time to present one is just you being
a barrack room dick.

Personal abuse. Excellent!

Just tell us you always do without...

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
The rules say you have to show your railcard if asked, there isn't
anything about how quickly you have to comply.

Roland, this reeks of obstructionism.

Nonsense. I had the digital railcard with me, just not on the phone I
use from day to day.

But you didn’t have it as available as the ticket, and without both them
them together your travel was invalid.

But no timescale published which demands they are shown within
milliseconds of each other.

<hard stare>

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
If you had a plastic card would you have it ready to show the gripper
when travelling on a ticket you’d bought with it;

No, I wouldn't have had it ready (in my hand), because as I said earlier
my experience is it's only required about once every two years. So it
would be in my physical wallet, and accessible within a few seconds.

Post by Sam Wilson
or would you put it in a sealed envelope, wrapped in shrink film,
in the inside pocket of a jacket you’d packed at the bottom of one of your
two suitcases, but you couldn’t remember which one?

Now you are just being silly.

Of course. It’s called exaggeration for effect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson
In that situation I’d expect the gripper to be ready to excess you,
or even fine you, for deliberately not being able to show your railcard.

I did show it, when asked. By my spare phone won't fit in my ordinary
wallet (I could imagine some very small phones which might just... but
they wouldn't be smart, just candybar) so he has to wait while I
retrieve it. Like I said, the rules don't specify a timescale.

Now you’re being silly. You were ready to show only half the documentation
for your journey. Why didn’t you have both the ticket and the railcard
ready to show together when asked?

First of all, it was unusual to be asked for a ticket at all. They
normally rely on the barriers at each end.
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.

Sam

[Ken]

On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.

If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.

In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.
Sam

[Tweed]

Post by Ken
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.
If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.
In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.
Sam

Perhaps railcards ought to be changed to being required at the time of
ticket purchase rather than time of travel. Then the ticket could be marked
with the card number and there would be no need to show a card when
travelling and possibly not be caught out with an out of date card. My
EasyJet Plus card works this way.

[Certes]

Post by Tweed

Post by Ken
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.
If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.
In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.

Perhaps railcards ought to be changed to being required at the time of
ticket purchase rather than time of travel. Then the ticket could be marked
with the card number and there would be no need to show a card when
travelling and possibly not be caught out with an out of date card. My
EasyJet Plus card works this way.

Doesn't that let all the students in the block share one railcard which
they borrow when buying tickets, even with anyone who's not eligible?

[Tweed]

Post by Certes

Post by Tweed

Post by Ken
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.
If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.
In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.

Perhaps railcards ought to be changed to being required at the time of
ticket purchase rather than time of travel. Then the ticket could be marked
with the card number and there would be no need to show a card when
travelling and possibly not be caught out with an out of date card. My
EasyJet Plus card works this way.

Doesn't that let all the students in the block share one railcard which
they borrow when buying tickets, even with anyone who's not eligible?

It would if you didn’t tie the ticket to a named person. This is common to
QR style tickets in some continental countries. However you would then need
to carry some sort of identity proof, which is often felt to be un British.
I think my fundamental objection to railcards are the egregious penalties
for not having a valid one.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Tweed

Post by Ken
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.
If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.
In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.
Sam

Perhaps railcards ought to be changed to being required at the time of
ticket purchase rather than time of travel. Then the ticket could be marked
with the card number and there would be no need to show a card when
travelling and possibly not be caught out with an out of date card. My
EasyJet Plus card works this way.

How do you do that at a ticket machine?

[Tweed]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Ken
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.
If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.
In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.
Sam

Perhaps railcards ought to be changed to being required at the time of
ticket purchase rather than time of travel. Then the ticket could be marked
with the card number and there would be no need to show a card when
travelling and possibly not be caught out with an out of date card. My
EasyJet Plus card works this way.

How do you do that at a ticket machine?

Have a chipped railcard that you insert into the ticket machine, or type in
your railcard number.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Tweed

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Ken
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.
If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.
In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.
Sam

Perhaps railcards ought to be changed to being required at the time of
ticket purchase rather than time of travel. Then the ticket could be marked
with the card number and there would be no need to show a card when
travelling and possibly not be caught out with an out of date card. My
EasyJet Plus card works this way.

How do you do that at a ticket machine?

Have a chipped railcard that you insert into the ticket machine, or type in
your railcard number.

So you need a complete new generation of ticket machines throughout the
country to cope with a relatively limited problem.

[Tweed]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Ken
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.
If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.
In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should. It’s part of your authority to travel.
Sam

Perhaps railcards ought to be changed to being required at the time of
ticket purchase rather than time of travel. Then the ticket could be marked
with the card number and there would be no need to show a card when
travelling and possibly not be caught out with an out of date card. My
EasyJet Plus card works this way.

How do you do that at a ticket machine?

Have a chipped railcard that you insert into the ticket machine, or type in
your railcard number.

So you need a complete new generation of ticket machines throughout the
country to cope with a relatively limited problem.

Not really, they already have card readers and user interfaces. But, yes, I
agree it’s a change that is unlikely to ever happen.

[Coffee]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Ken
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:14:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So?  Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s
just rude
not to have both ready.

I can see Roland's point. I used to always open the Railcard app when
I saw the gripper approaching but the number of times the card is
asked for is close to zero. EXCEPT on the first day of a rover - maybe
not a coincidence.
If they actually do ask for the card then you need to switch apps from
the ticket (or wallet) to the Railcard. At that point you discover
that your phone has about 50 apps open and rather than spend ages
swiping right and left looking for the railcard you might as well
start from scratch and reopen the railcard app.
In my case there would be no need to locate another device. I may not
be unusual in that respect.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Why is that card on my spare phone: well currently I have about 300 apps
on my regular phone, including for example six parking apps, seventeen
TOC apps, three bus timetable apps and Oyster, six mobile phone
subscription apps, about ten for various bluetooth managed devices
[reluctantly I added my Dashcam yesterday] so some of the least-used, or
don't-need-to-be-instantly-accessed, get bumped.

So turn the spare phone on and have it unpacked and ready for when the
gripper appears.

I don't know a gripper is going to appear; and why should I, on that
off-chance, get my spare phone out of my baggage and turn it on, only to
put it back an hour later when no-one asked to see it.

Yes, you should.  It’s part of your authority to travel.
Sam

Perhaps railcards ought to be changed to being required at the time of
ticket purchase rather than time of travel. Then the ticket could be marked
with the card number and there would be no need to show a card when
travelling and possibly not be caught out with an out of date card. My
EasyJet Plus card works this way.

How do you do that at a ticket machine?

Have a chipped railcard that you insert into the ticket machine, or type in
your railcard number.

So you need a complete new generation of ticket machines throughout the
country to cope with a relatively limited problem.

What would help a lot is if there was a way to have confirmed railcard
registrations on a ticket seller's website. That would make ticket
purchasing so much simpler for many.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry
Secondly, as I've said several times before, I'm only asked for thr
Railcard every year or so.

So? Without the railcard the other ticket[1] is invalid, so it’s just rude
not to have both ready.

Sorry, missing footnote:
[1] assuming you’re travelling on a discounted ticket bought with the
railcard.

Sam