Discussion:
GWR 387s - intro MON 05/09
(too old to reply)
Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
2016-09-03 01:36:35 UTC
Permalink
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars will begin service this Monday 05/09 on Paddington - Hayes shuttles.

Here's a poster at Ealing Broadway explaining the new trains (excuse my mug in the background):

Loading Image...

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Schnuzelbug
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2016-09-03 08:13:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars will begin service this Monday 05/09
on Paddington - Hayes shuttles.
Here's a poster at Ealing Broadway explaining the new trains (excuse my
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrXodqeWEAAbB05.jpg
Oh, only four per day? I thought they were 2tph!


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2016-09-03 09:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars will begin service this Monday 05/09
on Paddington - Hayes shuttles.
Here's a poster at Ealing Broadway explaining the new trains (excuse my
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrXodqeWEAAbB05.jpg
Oh, only four per day? I thought they were 2tph!
Presumably only after more 387s are in service.
PhilD
2016-09-03 18:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Presumably only after more 387s are in service.
Exactly. They are starting as, effectively, relief to some really overcrowded trains with the service building up more later.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2016-09-03 19:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by PhilD
Post by Recliner
Presumably only after more 387s are in service.
Exactly. They are starting as, effectively, relief to some really
overcrowded trains with the service building up more later.
There are four of them so far; how many are needed for a 2tph service of 21
minutes duration?

I was under the impression that they take the paths of the Greenford trains
out of Padd from 5th September, with the Greenfords terminating in the bay
at West Ealing.

So unless there's a *loss* of service out of Padd, something must run in
those paths. If it's not a 387 to Hayes, either it's a turbo to Hayes or a
387 to West Ealing and shunt somewhere, surely? Or will the Greenfords
still run to Padd except the four times a day that they're replaced by
387s, which sounds like a lot of faff for little gain.

Edit: that appears to be exactly what will happen; the NR journey planner
app suggests that Greenfords will still run through to Padd except for an
apparently random selection of West Ealing terminators in the peaks, for
only one of which is the connection provided by a Hayes terminator. Most
odd.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
TimB
2016-09-05 16:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by PhilD
Post by Recliner
Presumably only after more 387s are in service.
Exactly. They are starting as, effectively, relief to some really
overcrowded trains with the service building up more later.
There are four of them so far; how many are needed for a 2tph service of 21
minutes duration?
I was under the impression that they take the paths of the Greenford trains
out of Padd from 5th September, with the Greenfords terminating in the bay
at West Ealing.
So unless there's a *loss* of service out of Padd, something must run in
those paths. If it's not a 387 to Hayes, either it's a turbo to Hayes or a
387 to West Ealing and shunt somewhere, surely? Or will the Greenfords
still run to Padd except the four times a day that they're replaced by
387s, which sounds like a lot of faff for little gain.
Edit: that appears to be exactly what will happen; the NR journey planner
app suggests that Greenfords will still run through to Padd except for an
apparently random selection of West Ealing terminators in the peaks, for
only one of which is the connection provided by a Hayes terminator. Most
odd.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
I saw a twin 387 set arriving at Paddington at 0906 today - not shown on Real Time Trains, although the 0846 Greenford is shown as arrivng at 0909.5, a minute early. There's also an 0858 Old Oak Common Recp Line to Paddington (plat 10), arriving at 0907.5 and returning to North Pole Iep Depot at 0916 (though it left at 0923) - also shown as a Turbo.
Tim
PhilD
2016-09-05 17:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by TimB
I saw a twin 387 set arriving at Paddington at 0906 today - not shown on Real Time Trains, although the 0846 Greenford is shown as arrivng at 0909.5, a minute early. There's also an 0858 Old Oak Common Recp Line to Paddington (plat 10), arriving at 0907.5 and returning to North Pole Iep Depot at 0916 (though it left at 0923) - also shown as a Turbo.
I haven't looked up these trains, but be aware that on RTT if it says any particular stock type, that's what it's *timed* at, not necessarily what it's scheduled to be formed from.
Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
2016-09-05 18:47:16 UTC
Permalink
GWR 387s
I'm on the GWR 387s now. Did 1848 PAD - HAY, waited for it to reverse at Airport Junction, then returned on 1924 HAY - PAD.

I notice the PIS announces GWR as an acronym as "this is the GWR service..." rather than "this is the Great Western Railway service..."

Photos:

387s at Paddington:
https://twitter.com/Schnuzelbug1/status/772854165575983105?s=09

387 interior:
https://twitter.com/Schnuzelbug1/status/772861720511545345?s=09

387s at Hayes:
https://twitter.com/Schnuzelbug1/status/772863877201682433?s=09


387 at Acton Main Line (thanks driver for waiting for a photo stop!):
https://twitter.com/Schnuzelbug1/status/772866583425351680?s=09

---
Schnuzelbug
Paul Harley
2016-09-07 00:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Oh, only four per day? I thought they were 2tph!
Here are the diagrams:

Diagram 1
2S07 0718 HAY-PAD 0740
2S48 1718 PAD-HAY 1739
5S52 1741 HAY-PAD 1841
2S52 1848 PAD-HAY 1909
2S53 1924 HAY-PAD 1944

Diagram 2
2S09 0715 PAD HAY 0733
2S10 0748 HAY PAD 0810
2S56 1915 PAD HAY 1936
2S57 1954 HAY PAD 2014

Paul Harley

contrex
2016-09-04 07:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
R. Mark Clayton
2016-09-04 11:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
They probably have a dual purpose. A rounded edge rather than a sharp corner so as to reduce the risk of discharge (corona or arc) and also to help prevent the catenary slipping off and to allow its safer recovery if it does.

I can't find a decent picture online, but there may also be a design purpose to do with overhanging foliage.
Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
2016-09-04 21:05:53 UTC
Permalink
When I come back tomorrow, do you reckon that space between the 332 and 369 could be filled with a 387? ;-)

https://twitter.com/Schnuzelbug1/status/772539529773318149?s=09

I aim to do the 1915 off PAD to Hayes tomorrow if anyone is about. No point doing the 1700/1800 workings as too busy.

---
Schnuzelbug
Neil Williams
2016-09-04 21:56:59 UTC
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Anna Noyd-Dryver
2016-09-05 00:39:45 UTC
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Neil Williams
2016-09-05 09:04:44 UTC
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Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Since the demise of Valentas and the arrival of MTUs, I find the smoke from
Burger King more noticeable than the diesel fumes.
I don't know, I find the fug from the DMUs at the higher numbered
platforms unpleasantly noticeable - the HSTs are less of an issue as
they only start the concourse end power car just before departure.
Wouldn't be an issue if they weren't (designed to be) left idling - DB
have long shut them down on arrival.

I agree the smell of turds is more pronounced at Manc Picc. Might be
because that mostly has short DMUs, so it's concentrated nearer the
barriers.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
c***@yahoo.co.uk
2016-09-05 10:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Since the demise of Valentas and the arrival of MTUs, I find the smoke from
Burger King more noticeable than the diesel fumes.
I don't know, I find the fug from the DMUs at the higher numbered
platforms unpleasantly noticeable - the HSTs are less of an issue as
they only start the concourse end power car just before departure.
Wouldn't be an issue if they weren't (designed to be) left idling - DB
have long shut them down on arrival.
A group of us went to Munich back in 2007 to ride behind the 218s. Most drivers started the engine back up less than a minute before departure. The only time I can recall that happening in the UK is on a London Midland 150 at Hereford three years ago.

John
Ken Ward
2016-09-05 10:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Since the demise of Valentas and the arrival of MTUs, I find the smoke from
Burger King more noticeable than the diesel fumes.
I don't know, I find the fug from the DMUs at the higher numbered
platforms unpleasantly noticeable - the HSTs are less of an issue as
they only start the concourse end power car just before departure.
Wouldn't be an issue if they weren't (designed to be) left idling - DB
have long shut them down on arrival.
A group of us went to Munich back in 2007 to ride behind the 218s. Most drivers started the engine back up less than a minute before departure. The only time I can recall that happening in the UK is on a London Midland 150 at Hereford three years ago.
On August 27th. at 0400 the 67 on the end of the Cardiff Holyhead train
was still merrily ticking over. I believe this arrives at 2145 and
doesn't leave until 0533 on the Monday.

I wonder if it is to keep the fridge running to preserve the bacon and milk?
Ken Ward
2016-09-05 10:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Since the demise of Valentas and the arrival of MTUs, I find the smoke from
Burger King more noticeable than the diesel fumes.
I don't know, I find the fug from the DMUs at the higher numbered
platforms unpleasantly noticeable - the HSTs are less of an issue as
they only start the concourse end power car just before departure.
Wouldn't be an issue if they weren't (designed to be) left idling - DB
have long shut them down on arrival.
I agree the smell of turds is more pronounced at Manc Picc. Might be
because that mostly has short DMUs, so it's concentrated nearer the
barriers.
The worst place I've been for diesel fumes is the overbridge between
Platform 3 and 6at Manchester Victoria. Should get better in 3 years...
or more.

KW
Robert
2016-09-05 11:20:19 UTC
Permalink
<Snip>
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Since the demise of Valentas and the arrival of MTUs, I find the smoke from
Burger King more noticeable than the diesel fumes.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
6030? (Or, rather, 3060...?) :-)
--
Robert
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2016-09-05 00:39:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
When I come back tomorrow, do you reckon that space between the 332 and
369 could be filled with a 387? ;-)
https://twitter.com/Schnuzelbug1/status/772539529773318149?s=09
I aim to do the 1915 off PAD to Hayes tomorrow if anyone is about. No
point doing the 1700/1800 workings as too busy.
Considering that they're either extras or in the path of a 2-car 165, I
wouldn't expect them to be excessively busy. Particularly beyond West
Ealing.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Chris J Dixon
2016-09-05 12:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram

http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/

which in the UK tend to be formed into a single loop, then they
are simply to try to keep the pantograph under the contact wire,
despite movement of both from their ideal alignment.

These extension horns (which extend 400 mm either side of the 800
mm carbon contact strips) can be smeared with yellow lanolin
grease.

When the pan is periodically inspected, if it has been running on
the horns, this can be seen. Similarly, the overhead will show
yellow grease marks in the places where attention may be needed.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
***@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.
contrex
2016-09-05 20:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram
http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2016-09-05 20:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by contrex
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are
for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram
http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Christopher A. Lee
2016-09-05 20:54:07 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 20:33:48 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by contrex
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are
for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram
http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?
If you zoom in on the pantograph in this picture, there are two
thingies hanging below the arm.

Could that be what he means?

I hadn't noticed them previously.

Loading Image...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Anna Noyd-Dryver
Christopher A. Lee
2016-09-05 22:42:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Sep 2016 15:54:07 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 20:33:48 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by contrex
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are
for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram
http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?
If you zoom in on the pantograph in this picture, there are two
thingies hanging below the arm.
Could that be what he means?
I hadn't noticed them previously.
http://www.uraken.net/world/wrail/eng/class387/001.JPG
Belay that - contrex's picture shows them, and they're not these.
contrex
2016-09-05 21:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by contrex
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are
for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram
http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?
Anna Noyd-Dryver
Loading Image...
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2016-09-06 05:57:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 14:45:33 -0700 (PDT), contrex
Post by contrex
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by contrex
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are
for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?
Anna Noyd-Dryver
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/badoit/387panto_zpsvlix3crh.jpg
For a man with a long fibreglass pole and a hook to pull down a stuck
one ?


G.Harman
Chris J Dixon
2016-09-06 06:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by contrex
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by contrex
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/badoit/387panto_zpsvlix3crh.jpg
That's interesting. I dealt with pantographs for the original
Electrostars, which came from Brecknell Willis, but clearly there
have been changes since then. It could simply be that they have
changed supplier, and this is a detail which they just do
differently.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
***@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2016-09-06 12:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by contrex
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by contrex
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are
for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram
http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?
Anna Noyd-Dryver
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/badoit/387panto_zpsvlix3crh.jpg
I like the wings on the pantographs, which look to be creating a lift
affect.
David C
2016-09-06 13:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by contrex
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by contrex
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are
for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram
http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?
Anna Noyd-Dryver
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/badoit/387panto_zpsvlix3crh.jpg
I like the wings on the pantographs, which look to be creating a lift
affect.
The aerofoils are there to generate downforce, not lift.........

---
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h***@yahoo.co.uk
2016-09-06 13:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by contrex
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by contrex
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by contrex
Post by Schnuzelbug (Chris Date)
GWR electric class 387 Electrostars
Does anybody know what the rings on the ends of the pantograph arms are
for? I have heard suggested prevention of arcing or flashover.
If you mean the sections marked "horn" on this diagram
http://inchbyinch.de/pictorial/pantograph/
I don't think they are the same thing. Take a look at an online photo or
video. These rings are only present on class 387s among Electrostars as far as I can see
Could you provide a link to a suitable photograph?
Anna Noyd-Dryver
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/badoit/387panto_zpsvlix3crh.jpg
I like the wings on the pantographs, which look to be creating a lift
affect.
The aerofoils are there to generate downforce, not lift.........
---
I see. Why is that?
r***@gmail.com
2016-09-06 13:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by David C
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
I like the wings on the pantographs, which look to be creating a lift
affect.
The aerofoils are there to generate downforce, not lift.........
I see. Why is that?
If a single arm pantograph travels "elbow" leading, the aerodynamic drag on the frame will tend to push it upwards. If it travels "elbow" trailing, the aerodynamic drag on the frame will pull it downwards. The aerofoils are designed and angled so that the lift/downforce effectively cancels this effect out, so the contact force between pantograph head and OHL wire is near enough constant independent of speed and direction of travel.

Robin
Michael R N Dolbear
2016-09-06 20:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
I like the wings on the pantographs, which look to be creating a lift
affect.
The aerofoils are there to generate downforce, not lift.........
Same principle with a reversal of sign
--
Mike D
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