Regulator forces HS1 rail line to cut charges in push to open up route to Eurostar rivals

Post by Certes
ORR hopes £5m cut in fees will attract new operators on line from St
Pancras to the Channel Tunnel
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/jan/06/regulator-forces-hs1-rail-line-to-cut-charges-in-push-to-open-up-route-to-eurostar-rivals>

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

Graeme Wall

2025-01-06 13:24:10 UTC

Which is what DB were looking at at one time, they did a test run with
an ICE a few years back

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2025-01-06 13:27:27 UTC

Which is what DB were looking at at one time, they did a test run with
an ICE a few years back

... and decided not to bother.

Graeme Wall

2025-01-06 16:57:00 UTC

Which is what DB were looking at at one time, they did a test run with
an ICE a few years back

... and decided not to bother.

IIRC one of the reasons was the high charges for using both the tunnel
and HS1.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2025-01-07 14:20:04 UTC

Which is what DB were looking at at one time, they did a test run with
an ICE a few years back

... and decided not to bother.

IIRC one of the reasons was the high charges for using both the tunnel
and HS1.

DB would have known that before starting any investigations — it was the one thing already known.

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-07 14:29:30 UTC

On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 16:57:00 +0000, Graeme Wall

On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 13:24:10 +0000, Graeme Wall

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

Which is what DB were looking at at one time, they did a test run with
an ICE a few years back

... and decided not to bother.

IIRC one of the reasons was the high charges for using both the tunnel
and HS1.

DB would have known that before starting any investigations — it was the
one thing already known.

The one thing number two was the pax & luggage control
on UK-bound services.

Regards, ULF

Recliner

2025-01-07 14:50:37 UTC

On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 16:57:00 +0000, Graeme Wall

On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 13:24:10 +0000, Graeme Wall

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

Which is what DB were looking at at one time, they did a test run with
an ICE a few years back

... and decided not to bother.

IIRC one of the reasons was the high charges for using both the tunnel
and HS1.

DB would have known that before starting any investigations — it was the
one thing already known.

The one thing number two was the pax & luggage control
on UK-bound services.

That's much more likely to have been the problem.

Graeme Wall

2025-01-07 15:38:23 UTC

Which is what DB were looking at at one time, they did a test run with
an ICE a few years back

... and decided not to bother.

IIRC one of the reasons was the high charges for using both the tunnel
and HS1.

DB would have known that before starting any investigations — it was the one thing already known.

They apparently tried to renegotiate the charges but were rebuffed.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2025-01-07 16:23:20 UTC

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely
to welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

Which is what DB were looking at at one time, they did a test run with
an ICE a few years back

... and decided not to bother.

IIRC one of the reasons was the high charges for using both the tunnel
and HS1.

DB would have known that before starting any investigations — it was the
one thing already known.

They apparently tried to renegotiate the charges but were rebuffed.

My memory was that they hoped to be allowed to use normal 2x200 ICE sets,
but the regulations weren’t changed to allow such formations (they may have
been by now). DB had hoped to be able to split the trains, to serve two
separate destinations. Without that, the service wasn’t viable.

Certes

2025-01-06 13:55:35 UTC

Yes, on closer examination it's a bit of a non-story. "HS1 needed to
cut its planned fees by 3.8%", which isn't much especially if the
"planned fees" were an initial negotiating position which no one
expected to be allowed.

Theo

2025-01-06 14:48:12 UTC

I think someone could make it work by using Stratford International,
assuming the infrastructure there is still usable. The EL has opened up
Stratford as a connection point, although the connection from Regional to
International isn't the best.

On depot space, you might treat the UK as a long siding served from France.
Trains are depoted on the Continent and make a return journey to London and
back, so don't need stabling facilities - just like a budget airline flight
where the aircraft is based elsewhere. Like very regional airports you'd
only staff Stratford when there's a train on the departure board.

But I think the main problem is that all the unserved destinations that
might generate traffic are a bit too far away. Journey planners say Geneva
or Zurich are 7 hours with a change in Paris - could you reduce that time
significantly with a direct train? Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

I suppose the other problem is the passport checks at the Continent end -
Stratford was built with space for them, but stations like Zurich would need
dedicated space for their own facilities, and their own border control
staff.

Theo

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-06 15:03:50 UTC

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

If it isn't worth a stop any more
other operators might think it won't
fill trains.

Post by Theo
But I think the main problem is that all the unserved destinations that
might generate traffic are a bit too far away. Journey planners say Geneva
or Zurich are 7 hours with a change in Paris - could you reduce that time
significantly with a direct train?

Add Dijon and Basle for the Zurich trains.

Post by Theo
Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

That one is not slow.

Post by Theo
I suppose the other problem is the passport checks at the Continent end -
Stratford was built with space for them, but stations like Zurich would need
dedicated space for their own facilities, and their own border control
staff.

So have the controls in Lille Europe.

Regards, ULF

Recliner

2025-01-06 15:55:47 UTC

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

If it isn't worth a stop any more
other operators might think it won't
fill trains.

Add Dijon and Basle for the Zurich trains.

Post by Theo
Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

That one is not slow.

Yes, it’s an LGV.

So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it go in
the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK Immigration and
Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in Lille station, which wasn’t
designed to process a whole train load of passengers.

Tweed

2025-01-06 18:24:58 UTC

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

If it isn't worth a stop any more
other operators might think it won't
fill trains.

Add Dijon and Basle for the Zurich trains.

Post by Theo
Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

That one is not slow.

Yes, it’s an LGV.

So have the controls in Lille Europe.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations pre
Schengen.

Graeme Wall

2025-01-06 18:41:53 UTC

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

If it isn't worth a stop any more
other operators might think it won't
fill trains.

Add Dijon and Basle for the Zurich trains.

Post by Theo
Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

That one is not slow.

Yes, it’s an LGV.

So have the controls in Lille Europe.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations pre
Schengen.

Same arguments still apply.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tweed

2025-01-06 18:50:44 UTC

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

If it isn't worth a stop any more
other operators might think it won't
fill trains.

Add Dijon and Basle for the Zurich trains.

Post by Theo
Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

That one is not slow.

Yes, it’s an LGV.

So have the controls in Lille Europe.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations pre
Schengen.

Same arguments still apply.

Do they though? Lots of “impossible” things can be overcome with a bit of
application and ingenuity.

Graeme Wall

2025-01-06 20:58:09 UTC

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

If it isn't worth a stop any more
other operators might think it won't
fill trains.

Add Dijon and Basle for the Zurich trains.

Post by Theo
Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

That one is not slow.

Yes, it’s an LGV.

So have the controls in Lille Europe.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations pre
Schengen.

Same arguments still apply.

Do they though? Lots of “impossible” things can be overcome with a bit of
application and ingenuity.

It's not the application or ingenuity, it's the money.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2025-01-06 21:27:36 UTC

I suspect there are bigger impediments to new international rail
services, including depot and station space (including
security and passport checks) in London. Eurostar is hardly likely to
welcome competitors into its fairly small Temple
Mills depot. Competition is good, but the new services will need to
serve new routes and stations, such as Cologne or
other German cities, or routes such as to Strasbourg and on into Germany.

If it isn't worth a stop any more
other operators might think it won't
fill trains.

Add Dijon and Basle for the Zurich trains.

Post by Theo
Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

That one is not slow.

Yes, it’s an LGV.

So have the controls in Lille Europe.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations pre
Schengen.

The UK doesn’t want anyone to be on the train who might be refused entry,
so wants the checks to be done before boarding.

Passport checks are now biometric (requiring cameras and fingerprint
scanners), and probably need to be on-line. And security checks certainly
require all passengers to leave the train with all luggage. That’s more of
a hassle than the passport checks certainly.

Clank

2025-01-07 09:32:40 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations
pre Schengen.

Portable, online equipment for checking passports (and indeed things like
EES/ETIAS) exists; they're used on, for example, the Romanian on-train
checks at the border with Moldova; I know for sure they are online because
in the past I watched over their shoulder while they checked my residence
status. (And Ukrainian immigration have them for on-train checks as well,
although I can't say with certainty theirs are online.)

(Of course, "someone" will be along shortly to tell us why in the West
it's physically impossible to guarantee a decent mobile signal when
required...)

Post by Recliner
And security checks
certainly require all passengers to leave the train with all luggage.
That’s more of a hassle than the passport checks certainly.

On the trains I'm very familiar with (RO/MD, RO/HU (before Schengen), PL/
UA) they use sniffer dogs, and will also randomly search bags on-train.
On the night trains, there's normally a second set of sniffer dogs that I
deduce are "person sniffers" (there's probably a proper name for that...),
looking for any people who may be hiding under beds or the like.

This is the only downside of my preferred classic-Rimowa luggage; it
evidently looks like something you'd transport firearms in, so gets more
than the usual number of 'random' searches on trains to Ukraine ;-).

Roland Perry

2025-01-07 08:24:58 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

Post by Tweed
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border
stations pre Schengen.

And earlier, while trains were at the border stations.
But even pre-Schengen I once travelled Milan - Basle - Metz - Germany
without showing any other document than my interrail card.

The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.

--
Roland Perry

Bob

2025-01-08 09:39:49 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

And yet somehow every airport and every seaport manages. For my
Christmas travel I went via the Hoek-Harwich ferry. Twice a day a 1200
passenger capacity ship lands at Harwich from the continent with no
border pre-clearance or document checks, and somehow the world hasn't
stopped.

Robin

Tweed

2025-01-08 09:51:14 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

But for those services isn’t the transport operator made liable for
document pre checks on pain of fines? That’s why passports are checked
before boarding a plane to UK. This is relatively easy to organise at an
airport boarding gate or ferry terminal. Perhaps harder for a train. Though
I could see a gripper performing the checks with perhaps a stop as required
at Calais to offload those without documents.

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 10:01:04 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

Such a stop would create scheduling issues, especially if the person
resisted. But having spoken to the people who used to do on-train check
the problem is it's an extremely boring job wit most of the day spent
doing nothing. So recruitment (and paying people to do nothing most of
the time) are significant issues.

Remember that every train has to have these under-employed people on,
rather than at a sea/air port where they can deal with numerous
baots/planes in a shift.

--
Roland Perry

Tweed

2025-01-08 10:30:10 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

Such a stop would create scheduling issues, especially if the person
resisted. But having spoken to the people who used to do on-train check
the problem is it's an extremely boring job wit most of the day spent
doing nothing. So recruitment (and paying people to do nothing most of
the time) are significant issues.
Remember that every train has to have these under-employed people on,
rather than at a sea/air port where they can deal with numerous
baots/planes in a shift.

We aren’t talking about Border Force staff here, but the existing on train
staff checking documents. It’s airport/ferry port staff that do the
existing pre boarding checks. As to the schedule issues, Eurostar in my
experience is often held up by other matters on the continental side, so
adding another potential stop won’t be that different.

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 15:17:24 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train
passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

Such a stop would create scheduling issues, especially if the person
resisted. But having spoken to the people who used to do on-train check
the problem is it's an extremely boring job wit most of the day spent
doing nothing. So recruitment (and paying people to do nothing most of
the time) are significant issues.
Remember that every train has to have these under-employed people on,
rather than at a sea/air port where they can deal with numerous
baots/planes in a shift.

We aren’t talking about Border Force staff here, but the existing on train
staff checking documents.

They aren't border force trained, or vetted to access Home Office
databases.

Post by Tweed
It’s airport/ferry port staff that do the existing pre boarding
checks.

Whereas those staff do have a modicum of that, and in some cases are
external contractors performing a full-time role.

Post by Tweed
As to the schedule issues, Eurostar in my experience is often held up
by other matters on the continental side, so adding another potential
stop won’t be that different.

Quick question: is there a platform loop at Calais, so trains behind
don't get held up?

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2025-01-08 15:54:45 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

Such a stop would create scheduling issues, especially if the person
resisted. But having spoken to the people who used to do on-train check
the problem is it's an extremely boring job wit most of the day spent
doing nothing. So recruitment (and paying people to do nothing most of
the time) are significant issues.
Remember that every train has to have these under-employed people on,
rather than at a sea/air port where they can deal with numerous
baots/planes in a shift.

We aren’t talking about Border Force staff here, but the existing on train
staff checking documents.

They aren't border force trained, or vetted to access Home Office
databases.

Post by Tweed
It’s airport/ferry port staff that do the existing pre boarding
checks.

Whereas those staff do have a modicum of that, and in some cases are
external contractors performing a full-time role.

Post by Tweed
As to the schedule issues, Eurostar in my experience is often held up
by other matters on the continental side, so adding another potential
stop won’t be that different.

Quick question: is there a platform loop at Calais, so trains behind
don't get held up?

Yes, on both international tracks.

Graeme Wall

2025-01-08 16:26:43 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Quick question: is there a platform loop at Calais, so trains behind
don't get held up?

There are at Frethun.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 09:57:59 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

--
Roland Perry

Tweed

2025-01-08 10:09:05 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

Knowing where they came from is the tricky bit when documents have been
deliberately disposed of. A plane or ferry comes from a single originating
country. A train could have picked up the miscreant from one of several
countries. France isn’t willing to be the default.

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 10:28:21 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

Sounds extremely plausible.

--
Roland Perry

Certes

2025-01-08 10:49:11 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

Clearly, they came from France. That wasn't their original starting
point, because we don't chuck French people out, but they were in France
immediately before being in Britain. It seems wrong that they can give
a Gallic shrug and claim that they are somehow our responsibility now.

Tweed

2025-01-08 11:06:17 UTC

Post by Certes

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

So if they got on in Germany how does that mean they came from France? By
that argument you might claim that we could deport every illegal airline
passenger to the last country that the plane overflew before entering UK
airspace.

Recliner

2025-01-08 11:18:00 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

Tweed

2025-01-08 11:28:24 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

In that case no need for the potential ejection stop at Calais. Check on
train before that stop and check in station for those boarding at that
final stop.

Recliner

2025-01-08 11:39:03 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

In that case no need for the potential ejection stop at Calais. Check on
train before that stop and check in station for those boarding at that
final stop.

I wonder if there’s time to check the whole train during the short journey
from Brussels to Lille? Or are you only suggesting that procedure for new
departure points that don’t have UK passport checks (eg Cologne or
Strasbourg)?

Tweed

2025-01-08 11:49:57 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport
checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

In that case no need for the potential ejection stop at Calais. Check on
train before that stop and check in station for those boarding at that
final stop.

Probably the latter. But none of this overcomes the existing security check
requirements. Problem is I suspect is that nobody is willing to sign off a
slackening of security checks in case it comes back to bite them, however
distant the possibility. “That’s a very courageous move Minister….”

Recliner

2025-01-08 12:01:38 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport
checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

In that case no need for the potential ejection stop at Calais. Check on
train before that stop and check in station for those boarding at that
final stop.

Yes, that’s almost certainly the case. I suppose the train operator(s)
would have to legally challenge why the Channel Tunnel still has uniquely
onerous security requirements compared to other long rail tunnels, in
Europe and elsewhere.

As for the perfunctory Customs checks, they supposedly happen on arrival
anyway.

Bob

2025-01-08 12:50:17 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport
checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

In that case no need for the potential ejection stop at Calais. Check on
train before that stop and check in station for those boarding at that
final stop.

Yes, that’s almost certainly the case. I suppose the train operator(s)
would have to legally challenge why the Channel Tunnel still has uniquely
onerous security requirements compared to other long rail tunnels, in
Europe and elsewhere.
As for the perfunctory Customs checks, they supposedly happen on arrival
anyway.

I found it interesting that boarding the ferry at Hoek, there are no
security checks for foot passengers, while at Harwich there is a bag
scanner. Not really sure what they were looking for, I don't think there
is anything I can physcially cary as a single individual person, that
could meaningfully damage a 68,000 Tonne ship.

Robin

Tweed

2025-01-08 12:53:46 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport
checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

In that case no need for the potential ejection stop at Calais. Check on
train before that stop and check in station for those boarding at that
final stop.

Yes, that’s almost certainly the case. I suppose the train operator(s)
would have to legally challenge why the Channel Tunnel still has uniquely
onerous security requirements compared to other long rail tunnels, in
Europe and elsewhere.
As for the perfunctory Customs checks, they supposedly happen on arrival
anyway.

Probably a UK requirement but not a Dutch one. Regulations and sense are
not necessarily coincident.

Recliner

2025-01-08 13:51:52 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport
checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

In that case no need for the potential ejection stop at Calais. Check on
train before that stop and check in station for those boarding at that
final stop.

Yes, that’s almost certainly the case. I suppose the train operator(s)
would have to legally challenge why the Channel Tunnel still has uniquely
onerous security requirements compared to other long rail tunnels, in
Europe and elsewhere.
As for the perfunctory Customs checks, they supposedly happen on arrival
anyway.

It's common for cruise ship passengers to be scanned when boarding. Their luggage is always put through the machines,
and boarding passengers go through a slightly less lax version of airport security when first boarding.

With excursions, it's very variable: sometimes you get scanned both on disembarkation and on return to the ship, often
you don't. But those checks tend to be very casual, and they often don't bother if passengers get beeped in the security
arch. All concerned seem to realise it's all just theatre, and little to do with actual security.

The policies can vary by port in the same country. For example, on a recent cruise, I found that Casablanca was
unusually strict, while Safi, about 140 miles down the coast, did no checks at all. However, Safi insisted that our
coaches had a police motorbike escort in town, while Casablanca didn't. I'd say that Safi got it right, and Casablanca
didn't.

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 13:58:09 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport
checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

Knowing where they came from is the tricky bit when documents have been
deliberately disposed of. A plane or ferry comes from a single
originating
country. A train could have picked up the miscreant from one of several
countries. France isn’t willing to be the default.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

In that case no need for the potential ejection stop at Calais. Check on
train before that stop and check in station for those boarding at that
final stop.

Yes, that’s almost certainly the case. I suppose the train operator(s)
would have to legally challenge why the Channel Tunnel still has uniquely
onerous security requirements compared to other long rail tunnels, in
Europe and elsewhere.
As for the perfunctory Customs checks, they supposedly happen on arrival
anyway.

They want to sell their own booze...

Regards, ULF

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 14:43:35 UTC

Post by Recliner
It's common for cruise ship passengers to be scanned when boarding. Their luggage is always put through the machines,
and boarding passengers go through a slightly less lax version of airport security when first boarding.
With excursions, it's very variable: sometimes you get scanned both on disembarkation and on return to the ship, often
you don't. But those checks tend to be very casual, and they often don't bother if passengers get beeped in the security
arch. All concerned seem to realise it's all just theatre, and little to do with actual security.

It's quite likely the "actual security" is taking place behind the
scenes, looking at the history and profile of the passengers, which
is unlikely to be scary for the average cruise ship.

But if it was found that significant numbers of suspected terrorists
were trying to use it as a "back door", then something would be done.

(Having said that, USA once banned anyone who had spent time in Syria
the previous five years from entering the country, and may have done
those checks for inbound cruises.)

--
Roland Perry

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 11:28:56 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

Even with no intermediate stops like shown in

EST 9165
nach London St. Pancras International
Mi. 8. Jan. 2025

21:26
Bruxelles-Midi Eurostar

22:27
London St. Pancras International

?

Regards, ULF

Recliner

2025-01-08 11:43:56 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

All e* trains arriving in England have their final EU stop in France.

Even with no intermediate stops like shown in
EST 9165
nach London St. Pancras International
Mi. 8. Jan. 2025
21:26
Bruxelles-Midi Eurostar
22:27
London St. Pancras International

All Brussels e* services are scheduled to stop in Lille Europe in both
directions. However, I note that the 2130 Lille stop is cancelled for that
particular service tonight. It’s consequently described as a ‘Limited
service’. Presumably Lille station’s international facilities are shutting
early tonight?

Bob

2025-01-08 11:48:49 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

Terrestrial travel within the Schengen zone does not have a concept of
transit through a country without legally entering it. The moment a
train crosses the border, everyone on that train has entered the new
country. Air and sea travel are different because you can transit
through a country's airspace or terrestrial waters without legally
entering that country. For example a Santander or Bilbao - UK ferry does
not legally pass through France, even if it passes within 3 miles of Ushant.

Robin

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 12:35:45 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

There is something like airport transit,
and I am not 100 % sure Schengen abolished
all passenger rail transit rules. By the way,
I am sure Schengen did not abolish CH/EU
customs.

Interesting rules concern Basel Badischer Bahnhof,
the line passing Trasadingen - Schaffhausen - Thayngen,
the line passing Jestellen - Lottstetten, and, more
at the East, the Sopron area.

Regards, ULF

Bob

2025-01-08 12:46:54 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

There is something like airport transit,
and I am not 100 % sure Schengen abolished
all passenger rail transit rules. By the way,
I am sure Schengen did not abolish CH/EU
customs.

Schengen is a matter of immigration, ie the movement of people. Customs
apply to goods, either as freight or as the belongings of passengers.
The two are not the same. CH is in Schengen, but is not in the EU
customs union. Ireland is in the EU customs union, but is not in
Schengen. The question of illegal/undocumented immigrants relates to
immigration, not customs.

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Interesting rules concern Basel Badischer Bahnhof,
the line passing Trasadingen - Schaffhausen - Thayngen,
the line passing Jestellen - Lottstetten, and, more
at the East, the Sopron area.

Yes, but since the entry of CH into Schengen, those are customs rules,
not immigration rules.

Robin

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 13:17:17 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport
checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

There is something like airport transit,
and I am not 100 % sure Schengen abolished
all passenger rail transit rules. By the way,
I am sure Schengen did not abolish CH/EU
customs.

Yes, but since the entry of CH into Schengen, those are customs rules,

And domestic rail tariffs applying aboad...

Post by Bob
not immigration rules.

Maybe.

For some people there may be personal bans from
one single country, and in that case it might be
still relevant.

Didn't manage to travel the Malhowice - Krościenko
route via Khiriv [UA].

Regards, ULF

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 14:47:50 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
There is something like airport transit,
and I am not 100 % sure Schengen abolished
all passenger rail transit rules. By the way,
I am sure Schengen did not abolish CH/EU
customs.

Indeed so, I've been through the customs post under the e* platforms at
Geneva, next stop Lille, post-Schengen.

--
Roland Perry

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 15:10:03 UTC

Indeed so, I've been through the customs post under the e* platforms at
Geneva,

I thought it was Thalys, Lyria + TER?

Post by Roland Perry
next stop Lille, post-Schengen.

I know Thalys is now also called Eurostar but I'm
not aware of ony of their services at Geneva since.

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 15:18:10 UTC

Indeed so, I've been through the customs post under the e* platforms at
Geneva,

I thought it was Thalys, Lyria + TER?

You are quite right, slip of the keyboard.

Post by Roland Perry
next stop Lille, post-Schengen.

--
Roland Perry

Bob

2025-01-08 16:09:08 UTC

Indeed so, I've been through the customs post under the e* platforms at
Geneva, next stop Lille, post-Schengen.

Eurostar has never served Switzerland. The ski trains go/went (not sure
if they still run) to Bourg St Maurice, and other than that the only
beyond-Paris is down to Avignon/Marsailles. Red-Eurostar (formerly
Thalys) is strictly Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam/Cologne (with a handful to
Düsseldorf), none anywhere near Switzerland. I passed through Geneva in
the Autumn, Basel Bad at the weekend and Basel SNCF last summer. All
have customs facilities. None have passport checks.

Robin

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 16:27:14 UTC

Indeed so, I've been through the customs post under the e* platforms at
Geneva, next stop Lille, post-Schengen.

What about Dortmund?

Post by Bob
none anywhere near Switzerland.

More or less. Chambéry to BSM...

The Eurostar Snow train runs directly from Brussels
to the French Alps every Saturday throughout the winter
from 21 December 2024 to 12 April 2025.
https://www.eurostar.com/be-en/destinations/ski-holidays

Regards, ULF

Bob

2025-01-08 11:44:34 UTC

Post by Tweed
I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?

Deportation issues for those with no papers.

It does seem odd, but I think those sorts of places have a scheme to put
people on the next flight/boat back where they came from, that E*
apparently doesn't.

Coaches-on-ferries exist. Schengen rules do not provide for
transit-without-entry for intra-schengen rail passengers, so if a train
reaches Calais, all of its passengers are legally in France. France
might not want them back, but it has no legal means to prevent them
being returned there, in exactly the same way as would apply to a
passenger who boards a coach in Germany that arrives on a Calais-Dover
ferry. The tunnel entrance is in France, so anyone on the train came
from France.

Robin

Theo

2025-01-08 15:17:40 UTC

Post by Bob
Coaches-on-ferries exist. Schengen rules do not provide for
transit-without-entry for intra-schengen rail passengers, so if a train
reaches Calais, all of its passengers are legally in France. France
might not want them back, but it has no legal means to prevent them
being returned there, in exactly the same way as would apply to a
passenger who boards a coach in Germany that arrives on a Calais-Dover
ferry. The tunnel entrance is in France, so anyone on the train came
from France.

I think the converse would be 'corridor' trains, as existed in the DDR to
West Berlin and still exist on the Russia->Lithuania->Kaliningrad route.
Aside from that one, trains in the EU are not corridor trains and so
passengers undergo entry formalities for each country they pass through
(Schengen or otherwise).

Running corridor trains is a big ask because of the requirement to keep the
train secure if there is disruption - you can't just turf people off onto
another service as they may not have entry rights for (say) Lithuania.

For E* I suppose it's technically not a corridor train - passengers need to
have permission to enter all the countries it passes through, so at no point
are you somewhere you don't have rights to be. The difference is that a
London-bound E* has already checked you for the UK, and so the problem is
the different one of not allowing other un-checked people onto the train,
rather than allowing people off the train somewhere they can't be.

Theo

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 15:57:02 UTC

I think the converse would be 'corridor' trains, as existed in the DDR to
West Berlin

With parts of Berlin Friedrichstraße including
S-Bahn and underground operating as Western
corridor station in the Soviet sector and some
trains continuing to Poland/Soviet Union.

On those trains, IIRC, Helmstedt, Schwanheide
and Gutenfürst were GDR stations that might
be used by inter-German pax under transit agreement
rules.

There were passport checks and visas were stamped
without fees as far as German passengers were
concerned. Otheres paid 5 DM, IIRC, as the Bonn
government did not wish to pay for that.

There used to be through trains even before
the transit agreement was concluded but there
were also customs checks.

Allied forces had their own trains hauled
by DB and DR machines; those trains were
not subject to border checks and GDR officers
were not competent for them.

Post by Theo
and still exist on the Russia->Lithuania->Kaliningrad route.

I remember a "corridor platform" at Vlnius but
don't know whether still served by these trains.

By the way, they also stop in Belarus between
Kaliningrad oblast and rest of Russia but it is
illegal to use these stops under corridor rules.
Might be legal for pax with rights for Belarus and
Lithuania.

Post by Theo
Aside from that one, trains in the EU are not corridor trains and so
passengers undergo entry formalities for each country they pass through
(Schengen or otherwise).

Hm, there used to be corridor trains between Innsbruck
and Lienz with reversal at Fortezza.

And the Krzewina (Bogatynia) train station used
to be German transit or Polish-non-transit depending
on the train calling, with a temporary transit road
to the nearby German village of Ostritz.

Polish trains have been discontinued there.

Through trains Munich - Zurich pre-Schengen used
to have a small number of carriages serving Bregenz,
often with first class not included, and other parts
of the train locked for Austrian transit.

There were train services between Poland and Romania
via Mostiska and Vadul-Siret with some of them not
commercially serving Lviv/Lvov, Ivano-Frank*vsk
and Chern*vtsy, being locked and with armed Soviet
(border) servicemen all the way.

Regards, ULF

Clank

2025-01-07 09:24:08 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it go
in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in Lille
station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load of
passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations
pre Schengen.

Used to happen a couple of years ago on trains between Croatia and
Slovenia, until Croatia joined Schengen.

And indeed used to happen until a week ago on trains between Romania and
Hungary, when Romania finally fully joined Schengen. (Border control
posts were closed on 1st January, hurrah.)

Still happens on trains between Romania and Moldova, and still happens on
trains between Poland and Ukraine. The immigration officers have handy-
dandy portable passport scanners/biometric readers not unlike an old
SPORTIS machine.

I think recently Germany reintroduced checks on trains between Germany and
Poland/Czechia as well (albeit in that case it's mostly just "looking for
brown people to harass" rather than full checking-visas-and-stamping-
passports.)

Tweed

2025-01-07 09:28:50 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it go
in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in Lille
station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load of
passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations
pre Schengen.

Used to happen a couple of years ago on trains between Croatia and
Slovenia, until Croatia joined Schengen.
And indeed used to happen until a week ago on trains between Romania and
Hungary, when Romania finally fully joined Schengen. (Border control
posts were closed on 1st January, hurrah.)
Still happens on trains between Romania and Moldova, and still happens on
trains between Poland and Ukraine. The immigration officers have handy-
dandy portable passport scanners/biometric readers not unlike an old
SPORTIS machine.
I think recently Germany reintroduced checks on trains between Germany and
Poland/Czechia as well (albeit in that case it's mostly just "looking for
brown people to harass" rather than full checking-visas-and-stamping-
passports.)

And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

Clank

2025-01-07 09:36:18 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it go
in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in Lille
station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load of
passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border
stations pre Schengen.

Used to happen a couple of years ago on trains between Croatia and
Slovenia, until Croatia joined Schengen.
And indeed used to happen until a week ago on trains between Romania
and Hungary, when Romania finally fully joined Schengen. (Border
control posts were closed on 1st January, hurrah.)
Still happens on trains between Romania and Moldova, and still happens
on trains between Poland and Ukraine. The immigration officers have
handy- dandy portable passport scanners/biometric readers not unlike an
old SPORTIS machine.
I think recently Germany reintroduced checks on trains between Germany
and Poland/Czechia as well (albeit in that case it's mostly just
"looking for brown people to harass" rather than full
checking-visas-and-stamping- passports.)

And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled
at the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

Indeed. Whereas on the on-train checks between Poland and Ukraine, my
bags have been pulled and hand-searched a handful of times.

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-07 12:08:47 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it go
in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in Lille
station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load of
passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border
stations pre Schengen.

Used to happen a couple of years ago on trains between Croatia and
Slovenia, until Croatia joined Schengen.
And indeed used to happen until a week ago on trains between Romania
and Hungary, when Romania finally fully joined Schengen. (Border
control posts were closed on 1st January, hurrah.)
Still happens on trains between Romania and Moldova, and still happens
on trains between Poland and Ukraine. The immigration officers have
handy- dandy portable passport scanners/biometric readers not unlike an
old SPORTIS machine.
I think recently Germany reintroduced checks on trains between Germany
and Poland/Czechia as well (albeit in that case it's mostly just
"looking for brown people to harass" rather than full
checking-visas-and-stamping- passports.)

And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled
at the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

Indeed. Whereas on the on-train checks between Poland and Ukraine, my
bags have been pulled and hand-searched a handful of times.

They probably would have done so even
if you used a pedestrian checkpoint.

Arthur Figgis

2025-01-07 18:42:25 UTC

Indeed. Whereas on the on-train checks between Poland and Ukraine, my
bags have been pulled and hand-searched a handful of times.

They probably would have done so even
if you used a pedestrian checkpoint.

When I did it by train they didn't care about our bags once they saw
that we were British. But it was a long time ago now - we weren't the
last visitors to Crimea that year...

--
Arthur Figgis

Clank

2025-01-08 06:11:26 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it
go in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in
Lille station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load
of passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border
stations pre Schengen.

Used to happen a couple of years ago on trains between Croatia and
Slovenia, until Croatia joined Schengen.
And indeed used to happen until a week ago on trains between Romania
and Hungary, when Romania finally fully joined Schengen. (Border
control posts were closed on 1st January, hurrah.)
Still happens on trains between Romania and Moldova, and still
happens on trains between Poland and Ukraine. The immigration
officers have handy- dandy portable passport scanners/biometric
readers not unlike an old SPORTIS machine.
I think recently Germany reintroduced checks on trains between
Germany and Poland/Czechia as well (albeit in that case it's mostly
just "looking for brown people to harass" rather than full
checking-visas-and-stamping- passports.)

And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag
pulled at the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport
security.

Indeed. Whereas on the on-train checks between Poland and Ukraine, my
bags have been pulled and hand-searched a handful of times.

They probably would have done so even if you used a pedestrian
checkpoint.

AS ever, Ulf, in your desperation to reply with something - anything! -
you entirely miss the point.

I don't think there is anyone here who is not aware that it's possible to
have bags checked at land-based checkpoints. The point is that it is
entirely possible to perform passport and security checks on-train if the
will is there.

You may now, as is traditional, post a link to an entirely tangential
Wikipedia page. In fact, don't bother, I'll save you the time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suitcase

Certes

2025-01-08 10:50:36 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it
go in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in
Lille station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load
of passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border
stations pre Schengen.

Used to happen a couple of years ago on trains between Croatia and
Slovenia, until Croatia joined Schengen.
And indeed used to happen until a week ago on trains between Romania
and Hungary, when Romania finally fully joined Schengen. (Border
control posts were closed on 1st January, hurrah.)
Still happens on trains between Romania and Moldova, and still
happens on trains between Poland and Ukraine. The immigration
officers have handy- dandy portable passport scanners/biometric
readers not unlike an old SPORTIS machine.
I think recently Germany reintroduced checks on trains between
Germany and Poland/Czechia as well (albeit in that case it's mostly
just "looking for brown people to harass" rather than full
checking-visas-and-stamping- passports.)

And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag
pulled at the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport
security.

Indeed. Whereas on the on-train checks between Poland and Ukraine, my
bags have been pulled and hand-searched a handful of times.

They probably would have done so even if you used a pedestrian
checkpoint.

AS ever, Ulf, in your desperation to reply with something - anything! -
you entirely miss the point.
I don't think there is anyone here who is not aware that it's possible to
have bags checked at land-based checkpoints. The point is that it is
entirely possible to perform passport and security checks on-train if the
will is there.
You may now, as is traditional, post a link to an entirely tangential
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suitcase

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 11:06:45 UTC

Post by Clank
I don't think

Next time try thinking...

Clank

2025-01-08 11:33:45 UTC

Post by Clank
I don't think

Next time try thinking...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 12:23:57 UTC

Post by Clank
I don't think

Next time try thinking...

https://en.wiki[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toddler
helps describing you.

Coffee

2025-01-07 09:56:24 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it go
in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in Lille
station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load of
passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations
pre Schengen.

Used to happen a couple of years ago on trains between Croatia and
Slovenia, until Croatia joined Schengen.
And indeed used to happen until a week ago on trains between Romania and
Hungary, when Romania finally fully joined Schengen. (Border control
posts were closed on 1st January, hurrah.)
Still happens on trains between Romania and Moldova, and still happens on
trains between Poland and Ukraine. The immigration officers have handy-
dandy portable passport scanners/biometric readers not unlike an old
SPORTIS machine.
I think recently Germany reintroduced checks on trains between Germany and
Poland/Czechia as well (albeit in that case it's mostly just "looking for
brown people to harass" rather than full checking-visas-and-stamping-
passports.)

And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have on four occasions when I was carrying a walkie talkie and one or
two others. Walkie talkies were rare enough to that the operatives
couldn't easily recognisance them. Once I realised this I packed them
in an easily to reach position in my rucksack.

Graeme Wall

2025-01-07 10:17:44 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it go
in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in Lille
station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load of
passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations
pre Schengen.

Used to happen a couple of years ago on trains between Croatia and
Slovenia, until Croatia joined Schengen.
And indeed used to happen until a week ago on trains between Romania and
Hungary, when Romania finally fully joined Schengen. (Border control
posts were closed on 1st January, hurrah.)
Still happens on trains between Romania and Moldova, and still happens on
trains between Poland and Ukraine. The immigration officers have handy-
dandy portable passport scanners/biometric readers not unlike an old
SPORTIS machine.
I think recently Germany reintroduced checks on trains between Germany and
Poland/Czechia as well (albeit in that case it's mostly just "looking for
brown people to harass" rather than full checking-visas-and-stamping-
passports.)

And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I had my bag pulled at Waterloo (shows how long ago!), I was carrying a
bunch of cable adaptors for a sound colleague who had gone ahead of me.
The then rather primitive x-ray scanner couldn't discern what they were.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Theo

2025-01-07 11:17:28 UTC

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.

One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

Theo

Recliner

2025-01-07 11:35:06 UTC

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't
think they're particularly bothered by Li-Ion batteries, either. So maybe
they're mainly looking for guns, large explosive devices or bigger weapons
like swords, rather than pen knives or nail scissors?

M***@DastardlyHQ.org

2025-01-07 11:57:54 UTC

On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 11:35:06 GMT

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I havenât. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't

Not surprising. A small bomb on a plane can bring it down and kill everyone
on board. On a train the damage - as we saw on 7/7 - will be limited to the
carraige it occurs in and those bombs were reasonable sized.

Recliner

2025-01-07 12:36:33 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 11:35:06 GMT

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't

Yes, I'm sure backpack sized bombs would be caught. The real threat on high
speed trains seems to be individuals who smuggle personal weapons on board
and then attack staff and other passengers. I suppose a hostage situation
is possible if it's a gang, but not with a single attacker.

Tweed

2025-01-07 12:39:24 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 11:35:06 GMT

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't

Isn’t this a threat on any train, not just high speed ones?

Theo

2025-01-07 12:47:18 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 11:35:06 GMT

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't

Isn’t this a threat on any train, not just high speed ones?

And it's not very different from a stationary hostage situation. It is quite
hard to flee in a getaway train, given the electrification and signalling
know exactly where it is and can reroute or disable it at any time.

Theo

M***@DastardlyHQ.org

2025-01-07 14:08:00 UTC

On 07 Jan 2025 12:47:18 +0000 (GMT)

Post by Recliner
speed trains seems to be individuals who smuggle personal weapons on board
and then attack staff and other passengers. I suppose a hostage situation
is possible if it's a gang, but not with a single attacker.

Isnât this a threat on any train, not just high speed ones?

Never underestimate just how stupid a lot of criminals are.

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-07 12:48:56 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 11:35:06 GMT

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't

Isn’t this a threat on any train, not just high speed ones?

Sure. There was an axe attack at Ozoir-la-Ferrière
but I believe it was not meant for random passengers.

Recliner

2025-01-07 14:22:55 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 11:35:06 GMT

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't

Isn’t this a threat on any train, not just high speed ones?

What makes Eurostar special is just the tunnel journey. The rest of the route is just standard high speed train stuff.

Yet, ironically, LeShuttle passengers and luggage aren't searched.

Tweed

2025-01-07 14:52:06 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 11:35:06 GMT

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't

Isn’t this a threat on any train, not just high speed ones?

What makes Eurostar special is just the tunnel journey. The rest of the
route is just standard high speed train stuff.
Yet, ironically, LeShuttle passengers and luggage aren't searched.

They are randomly and in a very perfunctory fashion. We got stopped in both
directions.

Marland

2025-01-07 15:31:24 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 11:35:06 GMT

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

I don't know, but I do know they're much more permissive than airport
security. Fir example, liquids are fine, as are small devices. I don't

Not hi speed but most on here may remember the train hi jacks in the
Netherlands
in 1975 and 1977.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Dutch_train_hijacking>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Dutch_train_hijacking>

GH

Arthur Figgis

2025-01-07 18:44:56 UTC

Post by Recliner
Yes, I'm sure backpack sized bombs would be caught. The real threat on high
speed trains seems to be individuals who smuggle personal weapons on board
and then attack staff and other passengers.

There have been cases of people bringing back souvenirs from Flemish
battlefields.

--
Arthur Figgis

Theo

2025-01-07 12:41:10 UTC

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

But even with swords there are legitimate reasons, like going to a fencing
competition. Obviously there is much less of a risk of hijack of a E* so
weapons which wouldn't destroy the train/tunnel but could be used to
threaten staff are much less of a concern (yes they could overpower the
driver, but what then? Even SPADding or overspeeding into the buffers would
be stopped by signalling). So it's really only explosives that are the
concern, but I get the impression the scanning is looking for more than
that.

I wonder if they're now doing phytosanitary checks for people smuggling
illegal cheese into the EU?

Theo

Tweed

2025-01-07 12:54:46 UTC

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

But even with swords there are legitimate reasons, like going to a fencing
competition. Obviously there is much less of a risk of hijack of a E* so
weapons which wouldn't destroy the train/tunnel but could be used to
threaten staff are much less of a concern (yes they could overpower the
driver, but what then? Even SPADding or overspeeding into the buffers would
be stopped by signalling). So it's really only explosives that are the
concern, but I get the impression the scanning is looking for more than
that.
I wonder if they're now doing phytosanitary checks for people smuggling
illegal cheese into the EU?
Theo

They do at Warsaw airport. Someone I know got stopped bringing in UK
cheese. With a straight face they claimed it was vegan cheese and it was
let through.

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-07 13:10:12 UTC

Post by Theo
I wonder if they're now doing phytosanitary checks for people smuggling
illegal cheese into the EU?

They do at Warsaw airport. Someone I know got stopped bringing in UK
cheese. With a straight face they claimed it was vegan cheese and it was
let through.

Meat and cheese from NI might be okay.

Otherwise, certified UK producers might send
their products by certain offial ways but I
believe sandwiches in passengers' hand luggage
are not included.

https://food.ec.europa.eu/food-safety/biological-safety/food-hygiene/non-eu-countries-authorised-establishments_en

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-07 13:02:46 UTC

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

But even with swords there are legitimate reasons, like going to a fencing
competition. Obviously there is much less of a risk of hijack of a E* so
weapons which wouldn't destroy the train/tunnel but could be used to
threaten staff are much less of a concern (yes they could overpower the
driver, but what then? Even SPADding or overspeeding into the buffers would
be stopped by signalling). So it's really only explosives that are the
concern, but I get the impression the scanning is looking for more than
that.
I wonder if they're now doing phytosanitary checks for people smuggling
illegal cheese into the EU?

Let's add drugs and undeclared and untaxed booze
and tobacco but this is not for transport security.

Tweed

2025-01-07 13:07:33 UTC

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

But even with swords there are legitimate reasons, like going to a fencing
competition. Obviously there is much less of a risk of hijack of a E* so
weapons which wouldn't destroy the train/tunnel but could be used to
threaten staff are much less of a concern (yes they could overpower the
driver, but what then? Even SPADding or overspeeding into the buffers would
be stopped by signalling). So it's really only explosives that are the
concern, but I get the impression the scanning is looking for more than
that.
I wonder if they're now doing phytosanitary checks for people smuggling
illegal cheese into the EU?

Let's add drugs and undeclared and untaxed booze
and tobacco but this is not for transport security.

Tunnel security checks are not part of customs checks.

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-07 13:15:20 UTC

Post by Tweed
And as to the tunnel security checks - has anyone ever seen a bag pulled at
the scanning stage? I haven’t. Nothing like airport security.

I have, while carrying prototype electronics. It got a detailed hand search
then the all clear.
One difference with airports is there's no 'check it in the hold' process
for E*, so everything you take with you must be in your hand baggage because
there is no other kind of baggage. I'm not sure if you fail the scan (for
not explosives but say knives, which you might be legitimately carrying as a
chef for example) what they do about it - do they put bags in a locked
luggage compartment so you have no access during the journey?

But even with swords there are legitimate reasons, like going to a fencing
competition. Obviously there is much less of a risk of hijack of a E* so
weapons which wouldn't destroy the train/tunnel but could be used to
threaten staff are much less of a concern (yes they could overpower the
driver, but what then? Even SPADding or overspeeding into the buffers would
be stopped by signalling). So it's really only explosives that are the
concern, but I get the impression the scanning is looking for more than
that.
I wonder if they're now doing phytosanitary checks for people smuggling
illegal cheese into the EU?

Let's add drugs and undeclared and untaxed booze
and tobacco but this is not for transport security.

Tunnel security checks are not part of customs checks.

And those phytosanitary checks are not tunnel security checks.

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-07 11:39:36 UTC

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
So have the controls in Lille Europe.

It requires all the passengers to get off the train (where does it go
in the meantime?), and spend an hour or so filing through UK
Immigration and Tunnel security. There’s very limited space in Lille
station, which wasn’t designed to process a whole train load of
passengers.

I know we’ve been round this in the past, but on train passport checks?
Used to be done on the continent as trains went between border stations
pre Schengen.

IIUC, Ukrainian control is done while the
Hyundai IC+ train is in move. Not sure for
other trains at the Polish border.

Coffee

2025-01-07 17:59:03 UTC

Post by Theo
I think someone could make it work by using Stratford International,
assuming the infrastructure there is still usable. The EL has opened up
Stratford as a connection point, although the connection from Regional to
International isn't the best.

Stratford would be a much better connection point than Kings Cross for
us Paddington rail users.

Theo

2025-01-07 20:02:31 UTC

Post by Coffee

Stratford would be a much better connection point than Kings Cross for
us Paddington rail users.

What is the EL to DLR interchange like? Otherwise it's a hike through the
shopping mall to get to International.

Theo

Bob

2025-01-08 09:49:24 UTC

Post by Coffee

Stratford would be a much better connection point than Kings Cross for
us Paddington rail users.

Stratford International is a different station from Stratford. Getting
between the two, especially with luggage, is a pain, only slightly less
annoying than getting on the circle/H&C from St Pancras.

Robin

Bob

2025-01-08 09:34:54 UTC

Stratford never had the infrastructure in the first place. The station
was built with space for the intended border/security provisions, but
they were never actually installed. The bigger problem is that the
station was only ever designed to be an auxilliary station, it is far
too small to process a whole train load. The station is sized to have 2
security/border control lanes. If you assume one lane can process 4
passengers per minute, that is about an hour and a half to process a
full train load. The waiting area after security/border is also far too
small for a full train load of passengers to wait in, so you would need
to have the train in the station for the passengers to board directly
and wait on board. On the "land side", though, there is nowhere near
enough space to have a queue for a substantial portion of passengers
waiting to go through. For either Stratford or Ebbsfleet to be viable as
an actual terminal station for a full train load would require a very
substantial rebuild of the station.

Post by Theo
On depot space, you might treat the UK as a long siding served from France.
Trains are depoted on the Continent and make a return journey to London and
back, so don't need stabling facilities - just like a budget airline flight
where the aircraft is based elsewhere. Like very regional airports you'd
only staff Stratford when there's a train on the departure board.
But I think the main problem is that all the unserved destinations that
might generate traffic are a bit too far away. Journey planners say Geneva
or Zurich are 7 hours with a change in Paris - could you reduce that time
significantly with a direct train? Or would you waste even more time on
slow lines skirting Paris?

The LGV Interconnexion provides a link between the Atlantique, Nord, Est
and PSE LGV lines around Paris at full LGV line speed.

Zürich and Geneva already have customs and space for border control for
their respective French-serving platforms. As with Stratford, though,
there is a problem with the capacity of these facilities to process a
full train load of passengers for a train that meets tunnel safety
requirements.

The whole set of security theatre, border checks and tunnel security
arrangement stuff means London-rest of Europe is an almost impossible
problem to solve viably. Perhaps a better solution would be to take a
step back from the idea of London-direct trains, and rebuild
Calais-Frethun as a primary interchange station. Run London-Calais
shuttle trains, do the UK-bound border and security theatre there, and
have a set of French-domestic platforms that can serve as an end point
for any local, regional or long distance trains to a variety of European
distinations, that can run under normal UIC and EU/Schengen rules.

The only way the Channel Tunnel can realistically be a viable "normal
railway" would be, first, for the sercurtiy regime to be normalised
fully with standard UIC "long tunnel" rules in terms of train length,
rolling stock types and passenger security theatre requirements, and,
second, for the UK border people to treat rail in the same way they do
air and ship passengers, and deal with immigration on arrival rather
than pre-departure. Unless those changes are made, the channel tunnel
will always struggle to be useful for anything other than a
London-Paris/Brussels shuttle.

Robin

M***@DastardlyHQ.org

2025-01-08 10:35:33 UTC

On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 10:34:54 +0100

Makes you wonder why they bothered to build them. E* stopping at stratford
only a few miles away from StP makes little sense and I can't imagine too
many people wanting to get off there unless they live nearby. Ebsfleet would
be a bit more useful for travellers coming by car but then there's probably
no enough parking to be useful anyway.

Recliner

2025-01-08 10:59:12 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 10:34:54 +0100

I think it was intended to be an international stop during the London
Olympics, for some international visitors and athletes to arrive directly
in the Olympic site (adjacent to the athletes village). In the event, the
otherwise unused international platforms were used by the domestic Javelin
shuttle trains. They had to have temporary UK height wooden platforms
installed on top of the low UIC platforms.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Ebsfleet would
be a bit more useful for travellers coming by car but then there's probably
no enough parking to be useful anyway.

It was used as an intermediate stop pre-Covid, but the number of passengers
using it was never large. There was always plenty of room in the large car
park. The planned local new town developments were slow to arrive, but I
think they’re now happening.

There’s also a proposal to extend the Liz to the station, and that would
probably be accompanied by E* trains stopping there again.

Bob

2025-01-08 12:25:18 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 10:34:54 +0100

While that's how it was used, its construction began in 2001 while
bidding for the olympics began in 2003, so it seem unlikely the olymics
were in the picture when its design was finalised. Wikipedia suggests
part of the idea was for it to be a near-London stop for north of London
Eurostar services, in the manner of Marne-la-Valée on the LGV
Interconnexion.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Ebsfleet would
be a bit more useful for travellers coming by car but then there's probably
no enough parking to be useful anyway.

The development in the area has certainly come a long way since the
station opened, and on the occasions I have used SE HS services through
it, those are well patronised.

Post by Recliner
There’s also a proposal to extend the Liz to the station, and that would
probably be accompanied by E* trains stopping there again.

Realistically the only way to get the Elizabeth line to Ebbsfleet would
be to diverge from the current alignment near Erith and build a new
alignment across the Dartford Marshes, to rejoin the existing alignment
near where he A206 mees the Datrford bridge/tunnel approach, perhaps
with a station at Joyce Green. Getting it through Dartford given the
various railway junctions for the Sidcup Loop line and Bexleyheath line,
and the restricted site of Datrford Station itself, would be extremely
challenging.

Presently Northfleet and Swanscombe have 4 per hour (2x Thameslink
Luton-Rainham, 2xGravesend-Charing Cross via Sidcup), Greenithe has 6
per hour (as above plus 2x Gravesend-Victoria via Bexleyheath), while
Ebbsfleet has 4 per hour (2 via Gravesend and 2 via Ashford), so it is
not clear exactly what demand the Elizabeth line would be serving that
is not adequately being met by the current service.

Robin

Recliner

2025-01-08 13:57:23 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 10:34:54 +0100

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Ebsfleet would
be a bit more useful for travellers coming by car but then there's probably
no enough parking to be useful anyway.

The development in the area has certainly come a long way since the
station opened, and on the occasions I have used SE HS services through
it, those are well patronised.

Post by Recliner
There’s also a proposal to extend the Liz to the station, and that would
probably be accompanied by E* trains stopping there again.

Realistically the only way to get the Elizabeth line to Ebbsfleet would
be to diverge from the current alignment near Erith and build a new
alignment across the Dartford Marshes, to rejoin the existing alignment
near where he A206 mees the Datrford bridge/tunnel approach, perhaps
with a station at Joyce Green. Getting it through Dartford given the
various railway junctions for the Sidcup Loop line and Bexleyheath line,
and the restricted site of Datrford Station itself, would be extremely
challenging.
Presently Northfleet and Swanscombe have 4 per hour (2x Thameslink
Luton-Rainham, 2xGravesend-Charing Cross via Sidcup), Greenithe has 6
per hour (as above plus 2x Gravesend-Victoria via Bexleyheath), while
Ebbsfleet has 4 per hour (2 via Gravesend and 2 via Ashford), so it is
not clear exactly what demand the Elizabeth line would be serving that
is not adequately being met by the current service.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/mps-elizabeth-line-extension-kent-ebbsfleet-abbey-wood-b1193551.html

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 15:02:49 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 10:34:54 +0100

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Ebsfleet would
be a bit more useful for travellers coming by car but then there's probably
no enough parking to be useful anyway.

The development in the area has certainly come a long way since the
station opened, and on the occasions I have used SE HS services through
it, those are well patronised.

Post by Recliner
There’s also a proposal to extend the Liz to the station, and that would
probably be accompanied by E* trains stopping there again.

Realistically the only way to get the Elizabeth line to Ebbsfleet would
be to diverge from the current alignment near Erith and build a new
alignment across the Dartford Marshes, to rejoin the existing alignment
near where he A206 mees the Datrford bridge/tunnel approach, perhaps
with a station at Joyce Green. Getting it through Dartford given the
various railway junctions for the Sidcup Loop line and Bexleyheath line,
and the restricted site of Datrford Station itself, would be extremely
challenging.
Presently Northfleet and Swanscombe have 4 per hour (2x Thameslink
Luton-Rainham, 2xGravesend-Charing Cross via Sidcup), Greenithe has 6
per hour (as above plus 2x Gravesend-Victoria via Bexleyheath), while
Ebbsfleet has 4 per hour (2 via Gravesend and 2 via Ashford), so it is
not clear exactly what demand the Elizabeth line would be serving that
is not adequately being met by the current service.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/mps-elizabeth-line-extension-k
ent-ebbsfleet-abbey-wood-b1193551.html

"MP's call..." in other words a pipedream they haven't the slightest
idea how practical or economic it would be.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2025-01-08 14:58:51 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 10:34:54 +0100

There's also the small matter of the regeneration of the area, which has
considerably increased its catchment area of well-off potential
travellers.

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Ebsfleet would
be a bit more useful for travellers coming by car but then there's probably
no enough parking to be useful anyway.

It was used as an intermediate stop pre-Covid, but the number of passengers
using it was never large.

It was built to appease people living in the southern M25 corridor, who
used to have local trains to Waterloo, but were faced with a much more
difficult journey (so they said) to Kings Cross. So the answer was to
drive to Ebbsfleet.

Post by Recliner
There was always plenty of room in the large car park.

Ditto Ashford International

Post by Recliner
The planned local new town developments were slow to arrive, but I
think they’re now happening.
There’s also a proposal to extend the Liz to the station, and that would
probably be accompanied by E* trains stopping there again.

--
Roland Perry

Bob

2025-01-08 12:01:38 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 10:34:54 +0100

Ebbslfeet makes sense as a road-accessible station for P&R or car
drop-off/pick-up passengers. Neither Ashford nor Stratford ever made
sense from a traffic perspective as the potential market for them was
never enough to justify even stopping there, never mind building them
(though all three are useful for domestic HS services and are well used
in that capacity).

Personally I used Ebbsfleet a fair ammount as I had cause to go to
places nearby, and in the times I used it, but I recognise I fall into a
tiny niche of people for whom that is the case. When I did use it, it
was never busy enough to feel crowded in spite of its modest size. The
cynic would say they fall into the same category as NoL Eurostar and
Nightstar as "it's not just London, honest" political ploys to make the
project more palatable to the taxpayer.

Robin

Ulf_Kutzner

2025-01-08 14:38:58 UTC

Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 10:34:54 +0100