First refurbished XC 170 enters service

[Recliner]

From
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2025/03/05/first-refurbished-crosscountry-turbostar-enters-service

The first refurbished CrossCountry Turbostar has entered traffic sporting a
bold new livery and brighter interior.

The three-car Class 170 (170101) was outshopped from Arriva TrainCare’s
Crewe depot in late February, and has entered service on the XC’s
inter-regional routes between Cardiff and Nottingham, and Birmingham and
Stansted Airport.

XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

[Tweed]

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2025/03/05/first-refurbished-crosscountry-turbostar-enters-service
The first refurbished CrossCountry Turbostar has entered traffic sporting a
bold new livery and brighter interior.
The three-car Class 170 (170101) was outshopped from Arriva TrainCare’s
Crewe depot in late February, and has entered service on the XC’s
inter-regional routes between Cardiff and Nottingham, and Birmingham and
Stansted Airport.
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

[Coffee]

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2025/03/05/first-refurbished-crosscountry-turbostar-enters-service
The first refurbished CrossCountry Turbostar has entered traffic sporting a
bold new livery and brighter interior.
The three-car Class 170 (170101) was outshopped from Arriva TrainCare’s
Crewe depot in late February, and has entered service on the XC’s
inter-regional routes between Cardiff and Nottingham, and Birmingham and
Stansted Airport.
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Birmingham to Cardiff railway stations is no better often as far as
Cheltenham railway station.

[Recliner]

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2025/03/05/first-refurbished-crosscountry-turbostar-enters-service
The first refurbished CrossCountry Turbostar has entered traffic sporting a
bold new livery and brighter interior.
The three-car Class 170 (170101) was outshopped from Arriva TrainCare’s
Crewe depot in late February, and has entered service on the XC’s
inter-regional routes between Cardiff and Nottingham, and Birmingham and
Stansted Airport.
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

I wonder if the extra Voyagers that XC is getting from Avanti might help? For example, could some of these 3-car 170
diagrams be upgraded to 5-car Voyagers?

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Recliner

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2025/03/05/first-refurbished-crosscountry-turbostar-enters-service
The first refurbished CrossCountry Turbostar has entered traffic sporting a
bold new livery and brighter interior.
The three-car Class 170 (170101) was outshopped from Arriva TrainCare’s
Crewe depot in late February, and has entered service on the XC’s
inter-regional routes between Cardiff and Nottingham, and Birmingham and
Stansted Airport.
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

I wonder if the extra Voyagers that XC is getting from Avanti might help?
For example, could some of these 3-car 170
diagrams be upgraded to 5-car Voyagers?

I suppose they might be able to spin that as an upgrade.

Sam (cynically)

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2025/03/05/first-refurbished-cr
osscountry-turbostar-enters-service
The first refurbished CrossCountry Turbostar has entered traffic sporting a
bold new livery and brighter interior.
The three-car Class 170 (170101) was outshopped from Arriva TrainCare’s
Crewe depot in late February, and has entered service on the XC’s
inter-regional routes between Cardiff and Nottingham, and Birmingham and
Stansted Airport.
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

[Trolleybus]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.

Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.

So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.

I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

[Trolleybus]

Post by Roland Perry
I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

My favourite, which I used often, was the 0721 from Stansted. It
arrived at Audley End and became rammed with posh kids on their way to
Perse. And it was 2 cars. If they'd waited another three minutes there
was a GA service to Cambridge with bags of room.

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

[Recliner]

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

My favourite, which I used often, was the 0721 from Stansted. It
arrived at Audley End and became rammed with posh kids on their way to
Perse. And it was 2 cars. If they'd waited another three minutes there
was a GA service to Cambridge with bags of room.

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run without
a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to access all
passenger areas while the train is running?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

My favourite, which I used often, was the 0721 from Stansted. It
arrived at Audley End and became rammed with posh kids on their way to
Perse. And it was 2 cars. If they'd waited another three minutes there
was a GA service to Cambridge with bags of room.

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run without
a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to access all
passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises. I doubt that XC are different and are providing two guards
on the 2+2 trains running from Cardiff.

Does the driver check tickets on the front unit while the train is on
autopilot?

If Roland saw an XC 3+3 at Ely then it would have had a unit out as it
would be too long for most of the platforms. The locked unit was
probbaly a failure or just being moved ECS.

I'm pretty sure it was an ECS, likely a return working cancelled the
hour before due to short staffages. But very few platforms on its route
wouldn't take 6-cars, because the XCs are semi-fast.

One Sunday my normally two-car class 105 turned up as 4 units with
three locked out. And I was on a failed 171 on the Goblin that became
three units long, with two locked out, after rescue. It's not rare.

[Certes]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

My favourite, which I used often, was the 0721 from Stansted. It
arrived at Audley End and became rammed with posh kids on their way to
Perse. And it was 2 cars. If they'd waited another three minutes there
was a GA service to Cambridge with bags of room.

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run without
a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to access all
passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises. I doubt that XC are different and are providing two guards
on the 2+2 trains running from Cardiff.

Does the driver check tickets on the front unit while the train is on
autopilot?

Of course not - he's too busy selling soft drinks and sandwiches. But
he's available to deal with passengers following an emergency.

Post by Roland Perry

If Roland saw an XC 3+3 at Ely then it would have had a unit out as it
would be too long for most of the platforms. The locked unit was
probbaly a failure or just being moved ECS.

I'm pretty sure it was an ECS, likely a return working cancelled the
hour before due to short staffages. But very few platforms on its route
wouldn't take 6-cars, because the XCs are semi-fast.

One Sunday my normally two-car class 105 turned up as 4 units with
three locked out. And I was on a failed 171 on the Goblin that became
three units long, with two locked out, after rescue. It's not rare.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Certes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run
without a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to
access all passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises. I doubt that XC are different and are providing two guards
on the 2+2 trains running from Cardiff.

Does the driver check tickets on the front unit while the train is
on autopilot?

Of course not - he's too busy selling soft drinks and sandwiches. But
he's available to deal with passengers following an emergency.

The only TOC I know where the same person opens doors, checks tickets
and sells drinks and sandwiches is Scotrail. Soft drinks only of course,
because of their puritan ban on alcohol.

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Certes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run
without a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to
access all passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises. I doubt that XC are different and are providing two guards
on the 2+2 trains running from Cardiff.

Does the driver check tickets on the front unit while the train is
on autopilot?

Of course not - he's too busy selling soft drinks and sandwiches. But
he's available to deal with passengers following an emergency.

The only TOC I know where the same person opens doors, checks tickets
and sells drinks and sandwiches is Scotrail. Soft drinks only of course,
because of their puritan ban on alcohol.

EMR. I’ve observed the train manager help out the host in first class with
the trolley. Mind you it works both ways, the host often checks tickets in
1st before handing out the free stuff.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Certes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run
without a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to
access all passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises. I doubt that XC are different and are providing two guards
on the 2+2 trains running from Cardiff.

Does the driver check tickets on the front unit while the train is
on autopilot?

Of course not - he's too busy selling soft drinks and sandwiches. But
he's available to deal with passengers following an emergency.

The only TOC I know where the same person opens doors, checks tickets
and sells drinks and sandwiches is Scotrail. Soft drinks only of course,
because of their puritan ban on alcohol.

EMR. I’ve observed the train manager help out the host in first class with
the trolley. Mind you it works both ways, the host often checks tickets in
1st before handing out the free stuff.

I agree that hosts often look at train tickets, but only in the sense to
check that they are First Class and thus qualify for the free catering.

Back in the day I had a row with a host on a GNER train who claimed my
?Silver Standard? ticket didn't qualify me to sit in that carriage and
get free coffee. Having at my insistence called a proper gripper, they
had to back down. Which they did with very poor grace and no apology.

GNER, what a wonderful TOC it was.

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Certes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run
without a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to
access all passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises. I doubt that XC are different and are providing two guards
on the 2+2 trains running from Cardiff.

Does the driver check tickets on the front unit while the train is
on autopilot?

Of course not - he's too busy selling soft drinks and sandwiches. But
he's available to deal with passengers following an emergency.

The only TOC I know where the same person opens doors, checks tickets
and sells drinks and sandwiches is Scotrail. Soft drinks only of course,
because of their puritan ban on alcohol.

What about Caledonian Sleeper and Night Riviera (GWR)?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Certes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run
without a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to
access all passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises. I doubt that XC are different and are providing two guards
on the 2+2 trains running from Cardiff.

Does the driver check tickets on the front unit while the train is
on autopilot?

Of course not - he's too busy selling soft drinks and sandwiches. But
he's available to deal with passengers following an emergency.

The only TOC I know where the same person opens doors, checks tickets
and sells drinks and sandwiches is Scotrail. Soft drinks only of course,
because of their puritan ban on alcohol.

What about Caledonian Sleeper and Night Riviera (GWR)?

Two trains a day. Hardly representative. And not 170's.

[Recliner]

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

My favourite, which I used often, was the 0721 from Stansted. It
arrived at Audley End and became rammed with posh kids on their way to
Perse. And it was 2 cars. If they'd waited another three minutes there
was a GA service to Cambridge with bags of room.

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run without
a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to access all
passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises.

Don’t they nearly all have gangways between units?

[Trolleybus]

Post by Recliner

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

My favourite, which I used often, was the 0721 from Stansted. It
arrived at Audley End and became rammed with posh kids on their way to
Perse. And it was 2 cars. If they'd waited another three minutes there
was a GA service to Cambridge with bags of room.

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Perhaps the TOC has a rule or union agreement that no unit will run without
a safety-qualified member of staff on board and able to access all
passenger areas while the train is running?

You have that with a driver in the front and a guard/tm at the back,
if two units. But there are many MUs running in multiple without
either through doors or a guard per unit, for instance on the old SR
franchises. I doubt that XC are different and are providing two guards
on the 2+2 trains running from Cardiff.

If Roland saw an XC 3+3 at Ely then it would have had a unit out as it
would be too long for most of the platforms. The locked unit was
probbaly a failure or just being moved ECS.

One Sunday my normally two-car class 105 turned up as 4 units with
three locked out. And I was on a failed 171 on the Goblin that became
three units long, with two locked out, after rescue. It's not rare.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry
I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

My favourite, which I used often, was the 0721 from Stansted. It
arrived at Audley End and became rammed with posh kids on their way to
Perse. And it was 2 cars. If they'd waited another three minutes there
was a GA service to Cambridge with bags of room.

Post by Roland Perry
I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

Surely not? It's just a DMU and designed to work in multiple in
service.

Because there's no gangway between the two units, both need to be
staffed.

[Coffee]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.

I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

No. The guard always travels in the rear unit with no additional
operative in the front unit. This means there is at least one operative
in each unit.

[Trolleybus]

On Thu, 6 Mar 2025 18:05:27 +0000, Coffee

Post by Coffee

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.

I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

No. The guard always travels in the rear unit with no additional
operative in the front unit. This means there is at least one operative
in each unit.

There are trains with three units and no gangway such as some Chiltern
165/168s. And even trains with inter-unit gangways tend to have them
out of use these days.

[Recliner]

Post by Trolleybus
On Thu, 6 Mar 2025 18:05:27 +0000, Coffee

Post by Coffee

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.

I've not travelled that line for a year or so, but it used to randomly
alternate between 2-car and 3-car.

Post by Trolleybus
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think they need two guards, so unusual to get pairs. Unless one is
locked out. I have a photo of a 3+3 at Ely like that.

No. The guard always travels in the rear unit with no additional
operative in the front unit. This means there is at least one operative
in each unit.

There are trains with three units and no gangway such as some Chiltern
165/168s. And even trains with inter-unit gangways tend to have them
out of use these days.

I wonder if it depends on whether the TOC has a DOO agreement with the
unions?

[Bevan Price]

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think XC got more 3 car 170s when they were displaced from West
Midland by the arrival of new Class 196s.

XCs remaining 2 car 170s seem to operate Birmingham - Derby -
Nottingham, sometimes in pairs.

[Recliner]

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think XC got more 3 car 170s when they were displaced from West
Midland by the arrival of new Class 196s.
XCs remaining 2 car 170s seem to operate Birmingham - Derby -
Nottingham, sometimes in pairs.

Doesn’t ScotRail have some 170s that it will be replacing soon?

[Bevan Price]

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think XC got more 3 car 170s when they were displaced from West
Midland by the arrival of new Class 196s.
XCs remaining 2 car 170s seem to operate Birmingham - Derby -
Nottingham, sometimes in pairs.

Doesn’t ScotRail have some 170s that it will be replacing soon?

Some Scotrail 170s moved to Northern & East Midland a few years ago. I
think the next "diesel" replacements are only for the HSTs.

[Recliner]

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think XC got more 3 car 170s when they were displaced from West
Midland by the arrival of new Class 196s.
XCs remaining 2 car 170s seem to operate Birmingham - Derby -
Nottingham, sometimes in pairs.

Doesn’t ScotRail have some 170s that it will be replacing soon?

Some Scotrail 170s moved to Northern & East Midland a few years ago. I
think the next "diesel" replacements are only for the HSTs.

OK, thanks for the clarification. I thought ScotRail/NR had a rolling
electrification programme that would release more 170s.

I know a number of DMU replacement procurement projects are now just
getting started, to allow the remaining BR DMUs to be retired, from 2030.
That will probably lead to a cascade of 170s to replace retiring 15x and
perhaps 16x units.

The replacements are unlikely to be pure DMUs. They may be BEMUs or
bi-modes, some new, some converted from EMUs.

[Bevan Price]

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think XC got more 3 car 170s when they were displaced from West
Midland by the arrival of new Class 196s.
XCs remaining 2 car 170s seem to operate Birmingham - Derby -
Nottingham, sometimes in pairs.

Doesn’t ScotRail have some 170s that it will be replacing soon?

Some Scotrail 170s moved to Northern & East Midland a few years ago. I
think the next "diesel" replacements are only for the HSTs.

OK, thanks for the clarification. I thought ScotRail/NR had a rolling
electrification programme that would release more 170s.
I know a number of DMU replacement procurement projects are now just
getting started, to allow the remaining BR DMUs to be retired, from 2030.
That will probably lead to a cascade of 170s to replace retiring 15x and
perhaps 16x units.
The replacements are unlikely to be pure DMUs. They may be BEMUs or
bi-modes, some new, some converted from EMUs.

Yes, the Class 156s and oldest emus will also be replaced in the next
few years, and, as you write, some of the new stock may be bi-modes
and/or have batteries.

I believe Scotrail is currently a bit short of dmus, so it might take a
while before their Class 158s and 170s start to be "displaced".

[Coffee]

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Trolleybus

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
XC says all 29 of its units will be fitted new tables, seats and carpets,
USB and mains plug sockets at all seats, enhanced passenger information
screens, refreshed toilets, new CCTV and automatic passenger counting
equipment and no First Class seating.

First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

Yes, especially on the two-car 170's (all the way to Cambridge after
Leicester), which have about half as many seats.

Do we still get 2-car trains on that route? I can't remember the last
time I suffered one and all services today between Birmingham and
Stansted have a three-car unit allocated. The shorts between Leicester
and Brum are also all threes.
Cardiff to Nottingham seems mostly to be threes with the odd 2+2 and a
stray 4-car Voyager at 0945 that follows the same route but only gets
to Birmingham before coupling and heading off to Edinburgh.
So maybe the two-car units tend to hunt in pairs these days?

I think XC got more 3 car 170s when they were displaced from West
Midland by the arrival of new Class 196s.
XCs remaining 2 car 170s seem to operate Birmingham - Derby -
Nottingham, sometimes in pairs.

Doesn’t ScotRail have some 170s that it will be replacing soon?

Some Scotrail 170s moved to Northern & East Midland a few years ago. I
think the next "diesel" replacements are only for the HSTs.

Some 170 centre cars found their way to Cross Country as well.

[Mike Humphrey]

Post by Tweed
First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

They can easily be coupled into longer trains though. It's not ideal as
they don't have a through gangway, but it's easy enough to form 6-car (or
9-car or 12-car) trains if they have enough units.

Mike

[Coffee]

Post by Mike Humphrey

Post by Tweed
First problem: three car. The Birmingham - Leicester route is grossly
overloaded at peak times, with folk sitting in the luggage stacks etc.

They can easily be coupled into longer trains though. It's not ideal as
they don't have a through gangway, but it's easy enough to form 6-car (or
9-car or 12-car) trains if they have enough units.

It's not so easy when you try to source the units to strengthen the
services.