Mk2 coaches in BR(S) green.

On 13 Jan 2005 06:51:51 -0800 someone who may be

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
I had no idea that the
early Mk2s were turned out in anything other than blue and grey.
Does anyone know how many of them were painted in green?

http://www.semg.org.uk/coach/brmk2_1.html

Green and maroon.

--
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I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

The InterCity

2005-01-13 15:14:47 UTC

'British Railways' became 'British Rail' in 1965, marking the
inauguration of the blue and grey livery. However, the first production
Mk 2 carriages entered service in 1964, thus were still subject to
regional liveries. For the record, the first prototype Mk 2 carriage
had been completed at Swindon in 1963.

The two initial liveries received by the fleet were Southern Region
coaching stock green and London Midland Region maroon. The construction
of what was just termed the 'Mk 2' ceased in 1966, thus later vehicles
in this batch received the blue and grey livery from the outset. From
1967 onwards, the Mk 2a carriage was produced at Derby, receiving the
blue and grey livery.

Peter Fox

2005-01-13 21:16:44 UTC

Post by The InterCity
'British Railways' became 'British Rail' in 1965, marking the
inauguration of the blue and grey livery. However, the first production
Mk 2 carriages entered service in 1964, thus were still subject to
regional liveries. For the record, the first prototype Mk 2 carriage
had been completed at Swindon in 1963.
The two initial liveries received by the fleet were Southern Region
coaching stock green and London Midland Region maroon. The construction
of what was just termed the 'Mk 2' ceased in 1966, thus later vehicles
in this batch received the blue and grey livery from the outset. From
1967 onwards, the Mk 2a carriage was produced at Derby, receiving the
blue and grey livery.

The LM Mark 2 FKs came out in maroon livery and the SR ones in green. The
LMR ones were originally used on St Pancras - Manchester and also on the
Thames-Clyde Express. They were repainted blue and grey to match the rest of
the Mark 2s and then placed in service on the West Coast Main Line on
Euston - Manchester/Liverpool. Only the FKs were ever maroon. BFKs, BSOs,
TSOs and SOs were all delivered in blue and grey.

The SR green FKs were different from all the others, as they had
conventional heating instead of pressure ventilation. The steam heating was
later removed, presumably when they were converted to air braking. I think
they stayed green much longer than the LM ones were maroon.

Peter Fox

Peter Fox

D7666

2005-01-13 22:29:35 UTC

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:VXyHZvfEdpUJ:www.semg.org.uk/files/BR_SR_Carriages/brslhc12a.pdf+13387+13406+Mk2+SR&hl=en

S13387 to S13406.

Looks like all scrapped ?

13396 went departmental 975290 but I don't follow departmentals, maybe
someone else ?

--
Nick

D7666

2005-01-14 00:01:01 UTC

Peter Fox wrote:

AFAIK these, if we are talking about the same 20 FK, had air brakes
from new - they were delivered in 1964 after when 1962 or 1963 SR
policy was air on everything.

These cars were for ordered against eastern section boat train working
with a then new need to couple UK stock to continental stock - so
surely must have had air brakes. [I'm not saying that is where they all
went, that is just what they were ordered against. ]

I can't comment if they were air only or dual from new but *assuming*
images that show green Mk.2 steam hauled was this specific batch then I
suppoose they were dual braked. I don't actually recall ever seeing
*green* Mk2 FK behind steam images - only maroon or blue-grey - but I'd
stand to be corrected.

Eastern section boat train motive power by this time was HA [class 71]
not steam and HA were dual braked from new. Before this discussion
came up I'd have said all 20 were AB only and those that gained vacuum
only did so on transfer away from SR.

This whole area of stock outside SR is not my scene. Its true early
Mk.2 were VB for all other regions and later subject to air - but SR
was different and already 'all air' for new stock before they got Mk.2.

I think the non standard heat was also related to eastern section boat
train work. HA had a non standard ETH supply [single pole not two pole
or vice versa] again to heat continental stock. The non standard form
of heating may have been a spin off from the non standard supply.
--
Nick

Harvey Coppock

2005-01-14 00:25:23 UTC

Post by D7666
I can't comment if they were air only or dual from new but *assuming*
images that show green Mk.2 steam hauled was this specific batch then I
suppoose they were dual braked. I don't actually recall ever seeing
*green* Mk2 FK behind steam images - only maroon or blue-grey - but I'd
stand to be corrected.

Didn't think it was possible to dual brake a Mk2?

The ex STEAM museum Mk2 has twin sliders.

The Caledonian Railway have a door on one of their Mk2s with the faint
outline of a Gill Sans 1 showing through, ie it was originally maroon or
green.

--
Harvey Coppock
http://www.peakrail.co.uk - The Peak Railway
http://www.lmsca.org.uk/carex - The Carriage Exchange

.

D7666

2005-01-14 02:12:11 UTC

Post by Harvey Coppock
Didn't think it was possible to dual brake a Mk2?

I'd never heard of why not but if so what would be the reason
preventing it given that there were both VB and AB Mkl.2 what stops a
DB version ?

--
Nicj

Peter Fox

2005-01-14 20:35:34 UTC

Post by Harvey Coppock
Didn't think it was possible to dual brake a Mk2?

I'd never heard of why not but if so what would be the reason
preventing it given that there were both VB and AB Mkl.2 what stops a
DB version ?

It is definitely not possible to dual brake a Mark 2. Conversions have been
done SOs from VB to AB and FKs and BFKs from AB to VB, but none are dual. I
am told that there just isn,t room to fit both lots of cylinders (presumably
the PV equipment takes up the space).

Peter Fox

D7666

2005-01-15 19:08:03 UTC

Post by Peter Fox
It is definitely not possible to dual brake a Mark 2. Conversions have been
done SOs from VB to AB and FKs and BFKs from AB to VB, but none are

dual.

You know Peter it is amazing sometimes what basic stuff gets
overlooked.

I'm not really into coaching stock outside SR EMU stuff. In something
like 35 years of actual memory of travel on Mk.2 including around 10
years living in the West Midland amid VB only and AB only and XB fitted
both locomotives and stock, I had never realised there were no XB Mk.2
for technical reasons.

This whole thread has raised some interesting points I had never really
though about before - like the AB / VB relationships on Mk.2, why SR
had those green Mk.2, Mk.2 working with steam, and the digression into
bits about Rep cars.

--
Nick

D7666

2005-01-14 06:41:00 UTC

D7666 wrote:

I'll try again, think something got lost.

Post by D7666
These cars were for ordered against eastern section boat

This is rubbish I write here as SED boat trains were EMU by 1964 except
for Golden Arrow and Night Ferry.

--
Nick

D7666

2005-01-14 07:05:54 UTC

D7666 wrote:

Ignore me.

Post by D7666
These cars were for ordered against eastern section boat train

Its rubbish since boat trains on SED side were already EMU apart from
Night Ferry and Golden Arrow.

The Mk.2 must have ordered against something else. Even so, I'm sure
they had air brakes from new, so were they dual from new too ?

The ETH side may still have come into play with 750 V DC though, which
might explain why they were not PV.

--
Nick

Peter Masson

2005-01-14 09:26:05 UTC

Post by D7666
These cars were for ordered against eastern section boat train

Its rubbish since boat trains on SED side were already EMU apart from
Night Ferry and Golden Arrow.

Neither of which had much need for FKs. The Golden Arrow used the 1951
Pullmans for First Class, while the First Class passengers on the Night
Ferry were in the Wagon-lits (or the Restaurant Car). There was presumably
some first class accommodation in the seated section of the Night Ferry, but
I don't suppose it got much use.

Peter

Peter Fox

2005-01-14 20:35:34 UTC

Post by D7666
These cars were for ordered against eastern section boat train

Its rubbish since boat trains on SED side were already EMU apart from
Night Ferry and Golden Arrow.

They worked on South Western divison boat trains (Channel Islands and Ocean
Liner). I don't know whether they were ever stem heated. When I travelled in
them they just had conventional e.t.h.

Peter Fox

K***@mail.interware.hu

2005-01-14 17:58:54 UTC

Peter Fox wrote;

The LM Mark 2 FKs came out in maroon livery and the SR ones in green.
The
LMR ones were originally used on St Pancras - Manchester and also on
the
Thames-Clyde Express. ......

OH, maybe that is where I first saw them then. But in my mind's eye, i
thought I saw them on the GN first, in maroon, I mean.

Being only 12 or so, I did not understand the significance of Mk II at
the time (or if I did, I don't remember), but did any go to the ER in
maroon ? I would have thought this was 1963, but maybe it was 64.
Kester

BH Williams

2005-01-13 15:21:08 UTC

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
I have just purchased a DVD entitled 60s Steam Vol 2 from Transport
Video Publishing, which has some excellent footage on the disc.
However, one particular clip caught my eye, as it was of unrebuilt
Bulleid pacific 'Biggin Hill' at speed on a Southampton boat train. The
commentary makes a note of the maroon Gresley buffet in the formation
of the train, but the coach immediately in front of the buffet seems to
be a Mk2 first class coach in BR green livery. I had no idea that the
early Mk2s were turned out in anything other than blue and grey.
Does anyone know how many of them were painted in green?

No idea of the total numbers involved, but a small batch of the initial
build of Corridor Firsts were delivered to the Southern before the advent of
Corporate Blue. The first Mk 2 prototype was built in 1963, with a
production batch following in 1964- effectively before the XP64 stock. The
B4 bogie, such a distinctive feature of Mk2 stock, was trialled even before
that on Mk1 stock in chocolate and cream- I've seen published photos of
green Westerns hauling such stock in 1962.
Brian

MIG

2005-01-13 15:25:51 UTC

In another thread I asked whether a green Mark II I saw at Alton was an
anachronism. Although some were originally in green, it was thought
that that particular one proably wasn't one of them (like the
"preserved" 1970s Mark Is that are running around in 1950s colours on
certain railways).

James Christie

2005-01-13 17:47:47 UTC

Post by MIG

The

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
commentary makes a note of the maroon Gresley buffet in the formation
of the train, but the coach immediately in front of the buffet seems

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
be a Mk2 first class coach in BR green livery. I had no idea that the
early Mk2s were turned out in anything other than blue and grey.
Does anyone know how many of them were painted in green?

I thought Mk 1s ceased production in the early 60s?

--
Regards,

James Christie

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely
foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
Douglas Adams

MIG

2005-01-13 18:00:30 UTC

Post by James Christie
I thought Mk 1s ceased production in the early 60s?

No, I think they overlapped with Mark IIs (and possibly Mark IIIs).
Cheap to keep churning them out of the production line I spose. They
would have been very retro, as were the 312 units in the late 1970s or
the 325s (Mark IIIs) in 1995.

The electric units still running on the Southern were being built into
the 1970s (1971 or possibly 1972). I'm pretty sure that some ancient
looking Mark Is on preserved lines come from withdrawn electric units,
although maybe 1960s ones on the whole.

On the North York Moors railway recently I noticed that while a couple
of coaches were older, most of them had the raised window surrounds
that only the later Mark I coaches had.

Peter Masson

2005-01-13 19:30:15 UTC

Post by MIG

Post by James Christie
I thought Mk 1s ceased production in the early 60s?

No, I think they overlapped with Mark IIs (and possibly Mark IIIs).
Cheap to keep churning them out of the production line I spose. They
would have been very retro, as were the 312 units in the late 1970s or
the 325s (Mark IIIs) in 1995.
The electric units still running on the Southern were being built into
the 1970s (1971 or possibly 1972). I'm pretty sure that some ancient
looking Mark Is on preserved lines come from withdrawn electric units,
although maybe 1960s ones on the whole.

Loco-hauled Mk1s weren't built after the early 1960s, but SR emu Mk1s
continued until about 1974 - we didn't see VEPs on the South Eastern
Division until 1972, and they weren't widespread until a year or two later
than that.

Peter

D7666

2005-01-13 19:48:41 UTC

Post by Peter Masson
but SR emu Mk1s
continued until about 1974

Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

These however were not the last Mk.1 to enter revenue earning service
which was as late as 1976. This was 76370 that was delivered in 7739
but disbanded before entry to service as one of the donor units for
8001.

Other cars not used in 8001 ran as pool spares but 76370 was adopted
for SRAWS tests running formed in Vep or Cig as required but not in
service. Released from testing 1975, on overhaul 76370 was formed in
7768 (damaged December 1972 Copyhold Junction) entering traffic July
1976. Unit 3524 in todays money.

But getting back to the question - without checking AFAIK the only Mk.2
delivered in green were 20 [?] FK for the SR. This is the batch that
had Mk.1 2 piece sliding vents not MK.2 style single piece. I may be
wrong but I think these were the only Mk.2 that had such vents - this
ought to be a quick method of determining if a present day green Mk.2
is authentic.

--
Nick

D7666

2005-01-13 22:30:32 UTC

Post by D7666
I think these were the only Mk.2 that had such vents - this
ought to be a quick method of determining if a present day green Mk.2
is authentic.
--
Nick

Rich Mackin

2005-01-13 23:29:01 UTC

Post by D7666
I think these were the only Mk.2 that had such vents - this
ought to be a quick method of determining if a present day green Mk.2
is authentic.
--
Nick

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:VXyHZvfEdpUJ:www.semg.org.uk/files/BR_SR_Carriages/brslhc12a.pdf+13387+13406+Mk2+SR&hl=en
S13387 to S13406.
Looks like all scrapped ?
13396 went departmental 975290 but I don't follow departmentals, maybe
someone else ?

Now Serco's 'Test Car 6'

http://www.departmentals.com/photo.php?photo=975290a

--
*** http://www.railwayscene.co.uk/ ***
Rich Mackin (rich-at-richmackin-co-uk)
MSN: richmackin-at-hotmail-dot-com

D7666

2005-01-13 23:39:21 UTC

Post by Rich Mackin
http://www.departmentals.com/photo.php?photo=975290a

Thank you Rich I knew someone would know.

Look at the window vents - 2 part. These were as built for SR, and,
like I posted earlier, were AFAIK the only Mk.2 like this.

--
Nick

Russell Wykes

2005-01-14 08:54:46 UTC

Post by Peter Masson
but SR emu Mk1s
continued until about 1974

Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Russell

Chris Tolley

2005-01-14 10:31:59 UTC

but SR emu Mk1s continued until about 1974

Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Gosh, they didn't last long, in the scheme of things, did they?

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Peter Masson

2005-01-14 11:41:50 UTC

Post by D7666
Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Gosh, they didn't last long, in the scheme of things, did they?

The original (1967) express stock for the Bournemouth electrification was
largely converted from Mk1 loco-hauled stock. The motors from the 1967 and
1974 Bournemouth express stock were reused in the 442s. So the motors from
3012-3015 are still out there.

Peter

Paul Scott

2005-01-14 11:53:54 UTC

Post by D7666
Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Gosh, they didn't last long, in the scheme of things, did they?

Presumably these were the two carriages in the middle of the follow-on 4Rep
sets?. So they basically just fitted the motor bogies under an ordinary
mark1 CSO?

Imagine the years of delay nowadays if someone proposed fitting motors to an
existing mark3!

Paul

R.C. Payne

2005-01-14 12:05:59 UTC

Post by Paul Scott

Post by D7666
Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Gosh, they didn't last long, in the scheme of things, did they?

Presumably these were the two carriages in the middle of the follow-on 4Rep
sets?. So they basically just fitted the motor bogies under an ordinary
mark1 CSO?
Imagine the years of delay nowadays if someone proposed fitting motors to an
existing mark3!

I think this would be a problem more because of the newer construction
methods. Where you have a load bearing underframe with non load bearing
carriage body, it is quite easy to beef up the underframe to take
traction equipment. Where you have a load bearing monocoque body (Mk2
onwards), it is much harder to provide the additional strength to
support traction equipment after the carriage has been built. I believe
there was quite some design trouble to get the Mk3 carriage design to
support the traction equipment for the 442, and that a regular Mk3 (as
are going spare at the moment) simply doesn't have the extra strength to
support the load, nor any easy method to strengthen it.

It is not at all unreasonable in this day and age to faff about with the
traction equipment in old bodies/underframes to give old stuff a new
life, or to suit it to a different purpose; just look at the conversion
of 47s to 57s. The key point is that the Mk1 is easy to add stuff on to
because of the nature of the underframe, the Mk3 is not.

Robin

BH Williams

2005-01-14 17:23:15 UTC

Post by R.C. Payne

Post by Paul Scott

Post by D7666
Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Gosh, they didn't last long, in the scheme of things, did they?

Presumably these were the two carriages in the middle of the follow-on
4Rep sets?. So they basically just fitted the motor bogies under an
ordinary mark1 CSO?
Imagine the years of delay nowadays if someone proposed fitting motors to
an existing mark3!

I think this would be a problem more because of the newer construction
methods. Where you have a load bearing underframe with non load bearing
carriage body, it is quite easy to beef up the underframe to take traction
equipment. Where you have a load bearing monocoque body (Mk2 onwards), it
is much harder to provide the additional strength to support traction
equipment after the carriage has been built. I believe there was quite
some design trouble to get the Mk3 carriage design to support the traction
equipment for the 442, and that a regular Mk3 (as are going spare at the
moment) simply doesn't have the extra strength to support the load, nor
any easy method to strengthen it.
It is not at all unreasonable in this day and age to faff about with the
traction equipment in old bodies/underframes to give old stuff a new life,
or to suit it to a different purpose; just look at the conversion of 47s
to 57s. The key point is that the Mk1 is easy to add stuff on to because
of the nature of the underframe, the Mk3 is not.
Robin

To go back to the question of the original Mark 2 stock- the very first
vehicle, 13252, was intended for preservation at the NRM, but it has
recently been advised that it is instead to be scrapped due to the presence
of asbestos insulation.
Brian

Jason Lupton

2005-01-14 18:21:43 UTC

Post by BH Williams

Post by R.C. Payne

Post by Paul Scott

Post by D7666
Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Gosh, they didn't last long, in the scheme of things, did they?

Presumably these were the two carriages in the middle of the follow-on
4Rep sets?. So they basically just fitted the motor bogies under an
ordinary mark1 CSO?
Imagine the years of delay nowadays if someone proposed fitting motors
to an existing mark3!

I think this would be a problem more because of the newer construction
methods. Where you have a load bearing underframe with non load bearing
carriage body, it is quite easy to beef up the underframe to take
traction equipment. Where you have a load bearing monocoque body (Mk2
onwards), it is much harder to provide the additional strength to support
traction equipment after the carriage has been built. I believe there
was quite some design trouble to get the Mk3 carriage design to support
the traction equipment for the 442, and that a regular Mk3 (as are going
spare at the moment) simply doesn't have the extra strength to support
the load, nor any easy method to strengthen it.
It is not at all unreasonable in this day and age to faff about with the
traction equipment in old bodies/underframes to give old stuff a new
life, or to suit it to a different purpose; just look at the conversion
of 47s to 57s. The key point is that the Mk1 is easy to add stuff on to
because of the nature of the underframe, the Mk3 is not.
Robin

Thats a shame. I've never seen it but I know it had quite a few differences
to the later MK2s and it was the only Mk2 built at Swindon. Is it worthy of
a rescue campaign?

BH Williams

2005-01-14 19:25:15 UTC

Post by BH Williams

Robin

Thats a shame. I've never seen it but I know it had quite a few
differences to the later MK2s and it was the only Mk2 built at Swindon. Is
it worthy of a rescue campaign?

Sadly, it's quoted that it'll cost £60 000 to remove asbestos etc, so I
suspect it's probably doomed.
Brian

Charlie Hulme

2005-01-14 22:42:55 UTC

Post by BH Williams
To go back to the question of the original Mark 2 stock- the very first
vehicle, 13252, was intended for preservation at the NRM, but it has
recently been advised that it is instead to be scrapped due to the
presence of asbestos insulation.
Brian

Thats a shame. I've never seen it but I know it had quite a few differences
to the later MK2s and it was the only Mk2 built at Swindon. Is it worthy of
a rescue campaign?

It's a great dilemma for museums - which is a better choice, an early
prototype or a typical production example? And should items be returned
to their original condition, or kept in their final state?

These first Mk2s had Mk1-style interiors and looked rather dated even
then to the passenger, but the production open vehicles with their
XP64-style blue/grey check seats and clean styling still look
modern today when kept in good order. Excellent way to travel.

Charlie

MIG

2005-01-15 00:20:13 UTC

Post by Charlie Hulme

Thats a shame. I've never seen it but I know it had quite a few differences
to the later MK2s and it was the only Mk2 built at Swindon. Is it worthy of
a rescue campaign?

It's a great dilemma for museums - which is a better choice, an early
prototype or a typical production example? And should items be

returned

Post by Charlie Hulme
to their original condition, or kept in their final state?
These first Mk2s had Mk1-style interiors and looked rather dated even
then to the passenger, but the production open vehicles with their
XP64-style blue/grey check seats and clean styling still look
modern today when kept in good order. Excellent way to travel.
Charlie

Or more likely, later versions in good condition "returned" to a
condition that they were never in. Like the Mark Is with the later
kind of windows but the earlier colours that I mentioned.

Similar things happened with Routemaster "showbuses" where garages
"restored" features to 1969 vehicles that were not included in new
vehicles after the late 1950s.

D7666

2005-01-14 20:11:26 UTC

Post by R.C. Payne
Where you have a load bearing underframe with non load bearing
carriage body, it is quite easy to beef up the underframe to take
traction equipment. Where you have a load bearing monocoque body (Mk2
onwards), it is much harder to provide the additional strength to
support traction equipment after the carriage has been built.

Except that it was done.

AM10 [310] and 312 units are of Mk.2 construction and have near
identical motors to 4Rep motor coaches - EE546 but at a lower rating.

Don't forget too therer were also Mk.2 DEMU motor coaches - those for
NIR - which carry a good deal of weight from the engine. Identical to
anything that would or could have run in mainland UK though.
--
Nick

D7666

2005-01-14 20:24:38 UTC

Post by D7666
Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Gosh, they didn't last long, in the scheme of things, did they?

The motors from the 1967 and
1974 Bournemouth express stock were reused in the 442s.

As are [or rather were] a lot of the motor bogies : they went into the
main bogie pool to increase the Mk.6 bogie pool size allowing 4Bep
2301-2307, 4Cig 1901-1906 and 4Cep 1697-1699 to be re-bogied. All five
of todays remaining Cep/Bep units are so mounted.

What has always puzzled me is that given the well known SR approach of
rebuild and re-use everything is why the relatively new MBSO of
3012-3015 were not re-used when they made the revised 4Rep / 4Rep
conversions. Given that they intended keeping units that needed a total
of 6 motor coaches - and it was always know this would be the planned
quantity just the permutation changed from 4 car to 6 car , and was
altered after Clapham - why those 6 were not selected from the 8 of
3012-3015. Its true that it did not lie right on the time of stopping
Reps as donors for 442 whiuch was done according to due overhauls, but
given the 19xx series Reps in whatever form needed overhaul and/or
rebuild one would have thought the newer cars would have been sidelined
for this.

One of the them did survive as a departmental car, think it is still
about today, not sure, as a generator car, 999602 that tends to get
listed under DMU as it was set up to run between to ex-101 cars.
--
Nick

c***@yahoo.co.uk

2005-01-14 16:20:23 UTC

but SR emu Mk1s continued until about 1974

Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Gosh, they didn't last long, in the scheme of things, did they?
--
Personal Website: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cj.tolley/
Railway pictures: http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/
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Remove it before using this address.

I have looked at the video clip again but it is difficult to make out
whether the window openings are two-part, but there is a second clip on
the same video with another Southampton boat train containing a green
MK2 but even frame by frame it is not possible to make out the coach
number, although it does have a cream roundel on the body side under
the 4th window and just before the door.

D7666

2005-01-14 20:03:26 UTC

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
I have looked at the video clip again but it is difficult to make out
whether the window openings are two-part, but there is a second clip on
the same video with another Southampton boat train containing a green
MK2 but even frame by frame it is not possible to make out the coach
number, although it does have a cream roundel on the body side under
the 4th window and just before the door.

Before this thread I had not consciously noted the same FK behind steam
but having though about it over the last day or two and, after
correcting my own goal about eastern section boat trains, it must have
been right that these appeared behind steam on Soton boat trains - they
can't really have been built for anything else.

--
Nick

D7666

2005-01-14 20:06:45 UTC

Post by D7666
Correct 1974 - the last MK.1s were the 8 MSO for 4Rep 3012-3013.

I think you intended to type... 4Rep 3012-3015.

Indeed I did, 8 MBSO for 4 units as correctly write.

I've been answering this whole thread until now while suffering from a
heavy cold and lack of sleep and does that show or does that show ?
--
Nick

Jason Lupton

2005-01-13 23:58:59 UTC

Post by MIG

The

Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
commentary makes a note of the maroon Gresley buffet in the formation
of the train, but the coach immediately in front of the buffet seems

Its probably fair to say that all the Mk2 service stock on the Mid Hants
entered service with BR in blue and grey. However, there are, or were, a
couple of Mk2A FKs in store there, 13450 and 13475, which were vacuum braked
for the boat trains. They date from 1968 so they never ran behind steam but
is there a chance they were green?

James S

2005-01-14 00:52:35 UTC

Post by Jason Lupton
Its probably fair to say that all the Mk2 service stock on the Mid Hants
entered service with BR in blue and grey. However, there are, or were, a
couple of Mk2A FKs in store there, 13450 and 13475, which were vacuum braked
for the boat trains. They date from 1968 so they never ran behind steam but
is there a chance they were green?

According to Vintage Carriage Survey, 13450 still at Mid-Hants, although
probably
part of the Fragonset fleet now and 13475 is in the RSPI charter fleet in
Ireland.

James

D7666

2005-01-14 02:09:07 UTC

Post by Jason Lupton
13450 and 13475, which were vacuum
braked

Post by Jason Lupton
for the boat trains.

[a] I don't tink these were new to Southern Region
[b] *which* boat trains ?

--
Nick

Jason Lupton

2005-01-14 16:08:23 UTC

Post by Jason Lupton
13450 and 13475, which were vacuum
braked

Post by Jason Lupton
for the boat trains.

[a] I don't tink these were new to Southern Region
[b] *which* boat trains ?
--
Nick

They possibly weren't new to southern region. I don't think they were ever
dual braked either. Could someone from the Southern Electric Group shed a
little light on this?

Jason Lupton

2005-01-14 16:26:27 UTC

Post by Jason Lupton
13450 and 13475, which were vacuum
braked

Post by Jason Lupton
for the boat trains.

[a] I don't tink these were new to Southern Region
[b] *which* boat trains ?
--
Nick

They possibly weren't new to southern region. I don't think they were ever
dual braked either. Could someone from the Southern Electric Group shed a
little light on this?

Actually, looking at their website, its possible that 13450 and 13475 had
been on the Waterloo Exeter run since late 70s along with Mk2 open stock,
the 2A FKs being converted to vac brake to work with the vac brake only Mk2
stock, which is the main reason why the pair ended up on the Mid Hants, the
original plan being for them to end up in the green train on the main line.
There are two later FKs at Alton, a 2b and a 2c, but they are strictly non
runners being air brake and forming the volunteer accommodation. I found
when working on these that there was no obvious provision for them to be
dual brake but they were dual heat when built.

D7666

2005-01-14 19:59:51 UTC

Post by D7666
[a] I don't tink these were new to Southern Region

Actually, looking at their website, its possible that 13450 and 13475 had
been on the Waterloo Exeter run since late 70s along with Mk2 open stock,

Actually, *I* am the author of the article 'From 10201 to 50050' on the
SEG web site !!!

If you read the article carefully, you will relaise that after D800s
left the route in October 1971, WR asuming responsibility for all stock
while SR provided the traction - class 33. All stock normally used on
the line was WR based, at Newton Abbot then Laira, right into NSE
WOE-rail days.

--
Nick

Jason Lupton

2005-01-15 09:44:29 UTC

Post by BH Williams

Post by D7666
[a] I don't tink these were new to Southern Region

Actually, looking at their website, its possible that 13450 and 13475

had

Post by Jason Lupton
been on the Waterloo Exeter run since late 70s along with Mk2 open

stock,
Actually, *I* am the author of the article 'From 10201 to 50050' on the
SEG web site !!!
If you read the article carefully, you will relaise that after D800s
left the route in October 1971, WR asuming responsibility for all stock
while SR provided the traction - class 33. All stock normally used on
the line was WR based, at Newton Abbot then Laira, right into NSE
WOE-rail days.
--
Nick

Thank you for responding Nick. A good article! I remember towards the end of
loco haulage a train running around formed mostly of FKs because I had the
good fortune of travelling on it a few times. A very fine way to travel and
in many ways superior to the stock on there now.

D7666

2005-01-15 19:01:52 UTC