Metrolink Matters - New Network Map

[trainguard]

http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf

Apologies for the crap diagram. Someone in TforGM has abandoned the excellent Beck formula, but people are on his case. Note that this is not definitive; more services will be re-routed when TMS and other issues are sorted out.

The date for 2cc opening may be towards the end of February.

Clearance work and utility diversions have started in places on the Trafford Centre route.

Dr. Barry Worthington

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 14:16:54 -0800 (PST), trainguard

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf
Apologies for the crap diagram. Someone in TforGM has abandoned the excellent Beck formula, but people are on his case. Note that this is not definitive; more services will be re-routed when TMS and other issues are sorted out.
The date for 2cc opening may be towards the end of February.
Clearance work and utility diversions have started in places on the Trafford Centre route.
Dr. Barry Worthington

The link doesn't work...

"Server not found"

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 14:16:54 -0800 (PST), trainguard

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf

The link doesn't work...
"Server not found"

Truncated URLs with "..." in the middle of them generally don't...


Anna Noyd-Dryver

[PhilD]

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf

Is this the intended link?:
<http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf>

[trainguard]

Post by PhilD

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf

<http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf>

Yes. Sorry for the glitch! Not often I do that!

Dr. Barry Worthington

[Basil Jet]

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf
Apologies for the crap diagram. Someone in TforGM has abandoned the excellent Beck formula, but people are on his case. Note that this is not definitive; more services will be re-routed when TMS and other issues are sorted out.
The date for 2cc opening may be towards the end of February.
Clearance work and utility diversions have started in places on the Trafford Centre route.
Dr. Barry Worthington

http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf

IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

Colours on the front of the trams would be good too. Get rid of the
letters. No-one really needs to know that the trams from Eccles go past
Piccadilly but the trams from MediaCityUK don't.

They've left the line from MediaCityUK to Broadway on, even though it's
not obvious that any trams will still use it. Very poor show.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Basil Jet
Colours on the front of the trams would be good too. Get rid of the
letters. No-one really needs to know that the trams from Eccles go past
Piccadilly but the trams from MediaCityUK don't.

Are the letters on the front of the tram? I think they ideally should
be, or service numbers of some kind.

Neil

[Basil Jet]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Basil Jet
Colours on the front of the trams would be good too. Get rid of the
letters. No-one really needs to know that the trams from Eccles go
past Piccadilly but the trams from MediaCityUK don't.

Are the letters on the front of the tram?

No. I think they only exist on the map.... unless they're on signs at
Victoria, but I don't think they are.

Post by Neil Williams
I think they ideally should be, or service numbers of some kind.

[j***@pyromancer.net]

Post by PhilD

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf
Apologies for the crap diagram. Someone in TforGM has abandoned the excellent Beck formula, but people are on his case. Note that this is not definitive; more services will be re-routed when TMS and other issues are sorted out.
The date for 2cc opening may be towards the end of February.
Clearance work and utility diversions have started in places on the Trafford Centre route.

http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf

I think that's readable enough - and knowing what route
trams take will be important to people who want to get
to intermediate places and need to know if they should
change or not. Though agree with others that coloured
routes, Tube-style are the best way to show this.

At a guess from the shape this is designed to fit into
the above-door and above-window spaces in the trams?

Impressive how the network has grown, well done Manchester.
Now, can we have the same kind of vision and on-going
development in all other major provincial UK cities
please?

[Neil Williams]

Post by j***@pyromancer.net
I think that's readable enough - and knowing what route
trams take will be important to people who want to get
to intermediate places and need to know if they should
change or not. Though agree with others that coloured
routes, Tube-style are the best way to show this.

I think they need to simplify the actual routes first. Changing is no
massive penalty on Metrolink - it's all same-platform or
cross-platform, and the trams are mostly European style "standee trams"
so you're not having to get out of a seat you're not in to start with.
So the "short journey" routes need to take the same route across the
city centre than the full ones, then they could lose their own letter
and just be shown as "short journey" on the front of the tram alongside
a route number.

Neil

[tim...]

Post by PhilD

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf
Apologies for the crap diagram. Someone in TforGM has abandoned the
excellent Beck formula, but people are on his case. Note that this is not
definitive; more services will be re-routed when TMS and other issues are
sorted out.
The date for 2cc opening may be towards the end of February.
Clearance work and utility diversions have started in places on the
Trafford Centre route.
Dr. Barry Worthington

http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second crossing
opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

or just one colour per line

the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre, there's no
reason why everybody else's maps can't

tim

[Basil Jet]

Post by tim...

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

or just one colour per line
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre, there's no
reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html

That's awful!

[Robert]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

or just one colour per line
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre, there's no
reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it.
It contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.

http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

[Basil Jet]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

or just one colour per line
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre, there's no
reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it. It
contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.
http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

Still awful. Consider the two lines heading north from Giesing to
Ostbahnhof. One of them emerges near the top of the trunk, one at the
bottom. But at a glance you can't tell where the hell they go.

[Robert]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

or just one colour per line
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre, there's no
reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it. It
contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.
http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

Still awful. Consider the two lines heading north from Giesing to
Ostbahnhof. One of them emerges near the top of the trunk, one at the
bottom. But at a glance you can't tell where the hell they go.

This is Bayern - 'quick glances' are unknown!

[tim...]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

or just one colour per line
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre, there's no
reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it. It
contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.
http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

Still awful. Consider the two lines heading north from Giesing to
Ostbahnhof. One of them emerges near the top of the trunk, one at the
bottom. But at a glance you can't tell where the hell they go.

That's what the colours are for

Though they probably could have chosen some better contrasting colours

[Basil Jet]

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre,
there's no reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it. It
contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.
http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

Still awful. Consider the two lines heading north from Giesing to
Ostbahnhof. One of them emerges near the top of the trunk, one at the
bottom. But at a glance you can't tell where the hell they go.

That's what the colours are for
Though they probably could have chosen some better contrasting colours

Indeed, but colours are just a part of what enables you to follow lines.
There should be curves where the lines bend, instead of hiding the bend
behind a station blob. Compare Rayners Lane on...

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf

... with Rayners Lane on the notoriously bad Hutchison map...

Loading Image...

I imagine the Munich map is modified from an S-bahn only map which
worked okay, but when they added the U-bahn, they should have had a rethink.

[tim...]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre,
there's no reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it. It
contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.
http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

Still awful. Consider the two lines heading north from Giesing to
Ostbahnhof. One of them emerges near the top of the trunk, one at the
bottom. But at a glance you can't tell where the hell they go.

That's what the colours are for
Though they probably could have chosen some better contrasting colours

Indeed, but colours are just a part of what enables you to follow lines.
There should be curves where the lines bend, instead of hiding the bend
behind a station blob. Compare Rayners Lane on...
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf
... with Rayners Lane on the notoriously bad Hutchison map...
https://metropolitantojubilee.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/1960-book-london-underground-maps-poster-underground-map-harold-hutchison.jpg
I imagine the Munich map is modified from an S-bahn only map which worked
okay, but when they added the U-bahn, they should have had a rethink.

here's an earlier version of it, before they started to link up the end
stations on the U-bahn with the S-bahn

Loading Image...

and an even earlier just after the completion of the U bahn that was
intended to serve the 72 Olympics

Loading Image...

[Basil Jet]

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre,
there's no reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it. It
contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.
http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

Still awful. Consider the two lines heading north from Giesing to
Ostbahnhof. One of them emerges near the top of the trunk, one at the
bottom. But at a glance you can't tell where the hell they go.

That's what the colours are for
Though they probably could have chosen some better contrasting colours

Indeed, but colours are just a part of what enables you to follow
lines. There should be curves where the lines bend, instead of hiding
the bend behind a station blob. Compare Rayners Lane on...
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf
... with Rayners Lane on the notoriously bad Hutchison map...
https://metropolitantojubilee.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/1960-book-london-underground-maps-poster-underground-map-harold-hutchison.jpg
I imagine the Munich map is modified from an S-bahn only map which
worked okay, but when they added the U-bahn, they should have had a rethink.

here's an earlier version of it, before they started to link up the end
stations on the U-bahn with the S-bahn
https://www.u-bahn-muenchen.de/bild/sehrgross/schnellbahn1987.jpg
and an even earlier just after the completion of the U bahn that was
intended to serve the 72 Olympics
https://www.u-bahn-muenchen.de/bild/sehrgross/schnellbahn1972februar.jpg

Ah! That map is easy to use. Thanks, I now understand how they ended up
with the unusable map they have now.

[tim...]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

or just one colour per line
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre, there's no
reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it. It
contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.
http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

No, that's a later one

it shows the U3 all the way to Moosach

I must agree that this map has got a bit messy now that the U-bahn has
extend a bit from its original configuration

but that problem doesn't apply to Manchester, as it doesn't have an U-bahn
taking up space on the map

tim

[Robert]

Post by tim...

Post by Robert

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate

or just one colour per line
the Munich s-bahn map works with 7 lines through the centre, there's no
reason why everybody else's maps can't

http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Try this one - it's the original before someone mucked about with it.
It contains both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn.
http://www.s-bahn-muenchen.de/s_muenchen/view/mdb/s_muenchen/mvv/netz_und_tarifplaene_2016/mdb_208324_netz16_sb_a1.pdf

No, that's a later one
it shows the U3 all the way to Moosach
I must agree that this map has got a bit messy now that the U-bahn has
extend a bit from its original configuration
but that problem doesn't apply to Manchester, as it doesn't have an
U-bahn taking up space on the map
tim

The version of the map to which the link referred had been modified
from the original MVV map in that Karlsplatz, BMW Welt and other places
had been overprinted making it a mess. To my mind the unadulterated map
is easier to read even though the version I linked to is later than
than the overprinted one.

[Mike Tomlinson]

Post by Basil Jet
http://www.angelfire.com/ri/EuroDelivery/metro.html
That's awful!

Remember it combines surface and underground networks. I've travelled
extensively on the Munich system and although the map looks complicated,
it's dead easy to use. This /is/ Germany, remember...

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by PhilD

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf
Apologies for the crap diagram. Someone in TforGM has abandoned the excellent Beck formula, but people are on his case. Note that this is not definitive; more services will be re-routed when TMS and other issues are sorted out.
The date for 2cc opening may be towards the end of February.
Clearance work and utility diversions have started in places on the Trafford Centre route.
Dr. Barry Worthington

http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate
Colours on the front of the trams would be good too. Get rid of the
letters. No-one really needs to know that the trams from Eccles go past
Piccadilly but the trams from MediaCityUK don't.
They've left the line from MediaCityUK to Broadway on, even though it's
not obvious that any trams will still use it. Very poor show.

IIRC off peak trams from Eccles use it and reverse at Media City.

[unknown]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 05:33:38 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Basil Jet
They've left the line from MediaCityUK to Broadway on, even though it's
not obvious that any trams will still use it. Very poor show.

IIRC off peak trams from Eccles use it and reverse at Media City.

Correct, I used it a couple of weeks ago whilst trying out P&R at
Ladywell. What was confusing was that trams at St Peters Square were
only shown as destination Media City. Having let one go I decided to
take the one 12 mins later as nothing for Eccles had appeared in the
meanwhile. Go on, destination Eccles, thanks for that then!

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by unknown
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 05:33:38 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Basil Jet
They've left the line from MediaCityUK to Broadway on, even though it's
not obvious that any trams will still use it. Very poor show.

IIRC off peak trams from Eccles use it and reverse at Media City.

Correct, I used it a couple of weeks ago whilst trying out P&R at
Ladywell. What was confusing was that trams at St Peters Square were
only shown as destination Media City. Having let one go I decided to
take the one 12 mins later as nothing for Eccles had appeared in the
meanwhile. Go on, destination Eccles, thanks for that then!

At other times some trams only run to Cornbrook (and go into a reversing siding) or Deansgate Castlefield where there are three platforms and one can be used to reverse.

[Basil Jet]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
They've left the line from MediaCityUK to Broadway on, even though it's
not obvious that any trams will still use it. Very poor show.

IIRC off peak trams from Eccles use it and reverse at Media City.

Currently, but the new map suggests that will no longer be the case.

[PhilD]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by R. Mark Clayton
IIRC off peak trams from Eccles use it and reverse at Media City.

Currently, but the new map suggests that will no longer be the case.

The new map shows route E going to Eccles; there is no indication as to route (via MediaCity or not), so it's technically not any different to today's service.

[Basil Jet]

Post by PhilD

Post by Basil Jet

Post by R. Mark Clayton
IIRC off peak trams from Eccles use it and reverse at Media City.

Currently, but the new map suggests that will no longer be the case.

The new map shows route E going to Eccles; there is no indication as to route (via MediaCity or not), so it's technically not any different to today's service.

The current map shows the MediaCity terminators as a part time service,
the new map shows them as a full time service. Also the current map
suggests that the Eccles runs always run via MediaCity, but I don't
think they do. But if the new Eccles service always runs via MediaCity,
then the map should just show MediaCity as a stop on the way to Eccles,
similar to how Etihad is shown as a stop on the way to Ashton-Under-Lyne
- reversals should never be shown on geometric maps for passengers.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Basil Jet
The current map shows the MediaCity terminators as a part time service,
the new map shows them as a full time service. Also the current map
suggests that the Eccles runs always run via MediaCity, but I don't
think they do. But if the new Eccles service always runs via MediaCity,
then the map should just show MediaCity as a stop on the way to Eccles,
similar to how Etihad is shown as a stop on the way to
Ashton-Under-Lyne - reversals should never be shown on geometric maps
for passengers.

I'd say they should, as they can serve to confuse - "why is the tram
going back again?"

Neil

[Basil Jet]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Basil Jet
The current map shows the MediaCity terminators as a part time
service, the new map shows them as a full time service. Also the
current map suggests that the Eccles runs always run via MediaCity,
but I don't think they do. But if the new Eccles service always runs
via MediaCity, then the map should just show MediaCity as a stop on
the way to Eccles, similar to how Etihad is shown as a stop on the way
to Ashton-Under-Lyne - reversals should never be shown on geometric
maps for passengers.

I'd say they should, as they can serve to confuse - "why is the tram
going back again?"
Neil

Showing them as reverses creates ambiguity. Do the trains from Harrow to
Marylebone reverse out to Wembley Stadium? Do the Anglia trains from
Stratford to Liverpool Street reverse out to Hackney Downs? Do the
trains from Reading to Redhill reverse out to Gatwick? We know the
answers are No-No-Yes, but you can't tell that from any map. If you show
reversals as reversals, it becomes difficult to show branches
immediately leaving a terminus without them looking like reversals.

And what if some trains reverse but some carry on - how do you show
that? On Sundays there is an hourly service from Waterloo via Brentford
to Kingston with a reversal at Twickenham. What if every train up from
Strawberry Hill reversed at Twickenham - would it be okay to leave maps
as they are, tricking people into thinking that all trains from
Strawberry Hill proceeded to Richmond?

I think the best way to not confuse is to hide reversals. So the GWR
line from Reigate to Gatwick should enter Redhill from the north and
proceed southward, and the Southern line from Reigate to Croydon should
enter Redhill from the south and proceed northward.

[trainguard]

Post by PhilD

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf
Apologies for the crap diagram. Someone in TforGM has abandoned the excellent Beck formula, but people are on his case. Note that this is not definitive; more services will be re-routed when TMS and other issues are sorted out.
The date for 2cc opening may be towards the end of February.
Clearance work and utility diversions have started in places on the Trafford Centre route.
Dr. Barry Worthington

http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf
IMO the map outgrows the uncoloured format as soon as the second
crossing opens. They need to use five different coloured lines
* A via Victoria and Deansgate (old route)
* G,H via Victoria and Deansgate (new route)
* C via Victoria and Piccadilly
* B, E, D via Deansgate and Piccadilly
* F terminates at Deansgate
Colours on the front of the trams would be good too. Get rid of the
letters. No-one really needs to know that the trams from Eccles go past
Piccadilly but the trams from MediaCityUK don't.
They've left the line from MediaCityUK to Broadway on, even though it's
not obvious that any trams will still use it. Very poor show.

Yes. Sooner or later, they will realise that they are employing an idiot.

Dr. Barry Worthington

[Basil Jet]

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf

The other thing that baffles me is why do Harbour City, Altrincham and
East Didsbury get two trams though the central area but Manchester
Airport only gets one to the edge of the central area? Wouldn't it have
been better if B terminated at Deansgate and F went to Etihad, for
instance? Or H terminated at Deansgate and F went to Shaw? I realise
that Manchester Airport has much faster trains to Piccadilly, but I'm
thinking about Wythenshawe etc.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf

The other thing that baffles me is why do Harbour City, Altrincham and
East Didsbury get two trams though the central area but Manchester
Airport only gets one to the edge of the central area? Wouldn't it have
been better if B terminated at Deansgate and F went to Etihad, for
instance? Or H terminated at Deansgate and F went to Shaw? I realise
that Manchester Airport has much faster trains to Piccadilly, but I'm
thinking about Wythenshawe etc.

My understanding was that the airport trams would use 2CC and terminate at Victoria in the central semi "Spanish solution" track with platforms both sides.

[John Kenyon]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Basil Jet

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf

The other thing that baffles me is why do Harbour City, Altrincham and
East Didsbury get two trams though the central area but Manchester
Airport only gets one to the edge of the central area? Wouldn't it have
been better if B terminated at Deansgate and F went to Etihad, for
instance? Or H terminated at Deansgate and F went to Shaw? I realise
that Manchester Airport has much faster trains to Piccadilly, but I'm
thinking about Wythenshawe etc.

My understanding was that the airport trams would use 2CC and terminate at Victoria in the central semi "Spanish solution" track with platforms both sides.

I reckon that they are keeping the airport trams out of the equation
until they see how things settle down.

On top of that sending route E and F down 2CC rather than splitting to
join up again leaves you with the problem that the Northern Line had
when they tried to split service to each northern branch between Bank &
Charing Cross - it didn't work because you might have an even train
frequency at Kennington, but it all breaks down by the time you get to
Camden Town - then the branch gets two trains from each branch bunched
up, with nothing inbetween.

My money would be on E and F being split 2CC/Market Street, plus
Airport-2CC-Victoria, some months after they have sussed out how the
split would work.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by John Kenyon

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Basil Jet

Post by PhilD
http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf

The other thing that baffles me is why do Harbour City, Altrincham and
East Didsbury get two trams though the central area but Manchester
Airport only gets one to the edge of the central area? Wouldn't it have
been better if B terminated at Deansgate and F went to Etihad, for
instance? Or H terminated at Deansgate and F went to Shaw? I realise
that Manchester Airport has much faster trains to Piccadilly, but I'm
thinking about Wythenshawe etc.

My understanding was that the airport trams would use 2CC and terminate at Victoria in the central semi "Spanish solution" track with platforms both sides.

I reckon that they are keeping the airport trams out of the equation
until they see how things settle down.
On top of that sending route E and F down 2CC rather than splitting to
join up again leaves you with the problem that the Northern Line had
when they tried to split service to each northern branch between Bank &
Charing Cross - it didn't work because you might have an even train
frequency at Kennington, but it all breaks down by the time you get to
Camden Town - then the branch gets two trains from each branch bunched
up, with nothing inbetween.

Well potentially, however two things are different from the Northern Line: -

1. Trains north from Victoria or south from St. Peter's Square can go anywhere.
2. The two paths are short and similar in distance, although 2CC has one stop rather than two.

One thing similar - so many trams it hardly matters if two come together for the same destination.

Post by John Kenyon
My money would be on E and F being split 2CC/Market Street, plus
Airport-2CC-Victoria, some months after they have sussed out how the
split would work.

[Roger Lynn]

Post by Basil Jet
The other thing that baffles me is why do Harbour City, Altrincham and
East Didsbury get two trams though the central area but Manchester
Airport only gets one to the edge of the central area? Wouldn't it have
been better if B terminated at Deansgate and F went to Etihad, for
instance? Or H terminated at Deansgate and F went to Shaw? I realise
that Manchester Airport has much faster trains to Piccadilly, but I'm
thinking about Wythenshawe etc.

Wouldn't Victoria be a better place to terminate trams than Deansgate? It
seems odd to terminate trams just before they get to the section with extra
capacity.

Roger

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Roger Lynn

Post by Basil Jet
The other thing that baffles me is why do Harbour City, Altrincham and
East Didsbury get two trams though the central area but Manchester
Airport only gets one to the edge of the central area? Wouldn't it have
been better if B terminated at Deansgate and F went to Etihad, for
instance? Or H terminated at Deansgate and F went to Shaw? I realise
that Manchester Airport has much faster trains to Piccadilly, but I'm
thinking about Wythenshawe etc.

Wouldn't Victoria be a better place to terminate trams than Deansgate? It
seems odd to terminate trams just before they get to the section with extra
capacity.
Roger

Unfortunately there are only two tracks between Deansgate Castlefield and St. Peter's Square and this is the remaining bottleneck in the system.

[furnessvale]

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Unfortunately there are only two tracks between Deansgate Castlefield and St. Peter's Square and this is the remaining bottleneck in the system.

On an expanding system, I wonder how long that will remain the case?

George

[tim...]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Roger Lynn

Post by Basil Jet
The other thing that baffles me is why do Harbour City, Altrincham and
East Didsbury get two trams though the central area but Manchester
Airport only gets one to the edge of the central area? Wouldn't it have
been better if B terminated at Deansgate and F went to Etihad, for
instance? Or H terminated at Deansgate and F went to Shaw? I realise
that Manchester Airport has much faster trains to Piccadilly, but I'm
thinking about Wythenshawe etc.

Wouldn't Victoria be a better place to terminate trams than Deansgate? It
seems odd to terminate trams just before they get to the section with extra
capacity.
Roger

Unfortunately there are only two tracks between Deansgate Castlefield and
St. Peter's Square and this is the remaining bottleneck in the system.

still seems a bit dumb to terminate every tram from the airport before the
city centre instead of half the trams from Altrincham or Didsbury

[Basil Jet]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Roger Lynn

Post by Basil Jet
The other thing that baffles me is why do Harbour City, Altrincham and
East Didsbury get two trams though the central area but Manchester
Airport only gets one to the edge of the central area? Wouldn't it have
been better if B terminated at Deansgate and F went to Etihad, for
instance? Or H terminated at Deansgate and F went to Shaw? I realise
that Manchester Airport has much faster trains to Piccadilly, but I'm
thinking about Wythenshawe etc.

Wouldn't Victoria be a better place to terminate trams than Deansgate? It
seems odd to terminate trams just before they get to the section with extra
capacity.
Roger

Unfortunately there are only two tracks between Deansgate Castlefield and St. Peter's Square and this is the remaining bottleneck in the system.

Yet they plan to run 7 trams every 12 minutes between Cornbrook and
Deansgate where there are also only two tracks.

http://transformationinformation.co.uk/media/14866/16-0354-Metrolink-web-map.pdf

[Roger Lynn]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Roger Lynn
Wouldn't Victoria be a better place to terminate trams than Deansgate? It
seems odd to terminate trams just before they get to the section with
extra capacity.

Unfortunately there are only two tracks between Deansgate Castlefield and

St. Peter's Square and this is the remaining bottleneck in the system.

Are there more tracks between Deansgate and Cornbrook?

Roger

[trainguard]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Roger Lynn
Wouldn't Victoria be a better place to terminate trams than Deansgate? It
seems odd to terminate trams just before they get to the section with
extra capacity.

Unfortunately there are only two tracks between Deansgate Castlefield and

St. Peter's Square and this is the remaining bottleneck in the system.
Are there more tracks between Deansgate and Cornbrook?
Roger

There is a central turn back siding.

Dr. Barry Worthington

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by trainguard

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Roger Lynn
Wouldn't Victoria be a better place to terminate trams than Deansgate? It
seems odd to terminate trams just before they get to the section with
extra capacity.

Unfortunately there are only two tracks between Deansgate Castlefield and

St. Peter's Square and this is the remaining bottleneck in the system.
Are there more tracks between Deansgate and Cornbrook?
Roger

There is a central turn back siding.
Dr. Barry Worthington

And a third platform at Deansgate, which can also be used as a bay platform to turn back trams.

As it happens their press release says that the airport trams will run through to Victoria [over 2CC] later in the year, but I think they want some experience operating the new layout first.

I was in town last night and Piccadilly Gardens / Moseley Street triangle was busy with trams - fairly close to capacity IMHO.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by trainguard
http://transformationinformation.co....nk-web-map.pdf
Apologies for the crap diagram. Someone in TforGM has abandoned the excellent Beck formula, but people are on his case. Note that this is not definitive; more services will be re-routed when TMS and other issues are sorted out.
The date for 2cc opening may be towards the end of February.
Clearance work and utility diversions have started in places on the Trafford Centre route.
Dr. Barry Worthington

Yes seen this.

Unfortunate service pattern, with all trams from one branch (e.g. Didsbury) going the same way through town.