court summons

[cat]

I have received a court summons under bye law No. 18(1) for travelling
without a valid ticket. In fact, I thought I was travelling legally -
I had a return purchased with a South West trains network card. I was
travelling on the 9.20am Monday train from Salisbury to London - Qjump
had informed me that for that route and that time I could use the
network discount card (I have a print-out of the Qjump webpage
although this has subsequently been changed on the website). I then
purchased the ticket at the booking office at the station.

Although I faxed this to SWT together with an explanation, they have
informed me that any ticket for travel before 10am purchased with a
network card is invalid, and that this is in the terms and conditions
of the information provided by Qjump.

In fact, I know that the 10 o clock rule is somewhat flexible, since
on some services on that line further away from London, you can travel
significantly before 10am with the network card. Moreover, the Qjump
webpage clearly indicates the times of the trains when you can buy a
ticket with a discount card and when you cannot.

Given that I travelled with the ticket in good faith and I did my
research online beforehand, should I plead not guilty to the court
summons?

I would be grateful if you could provide me with advice. I received
the summons today and the case is being heard on 11th March. Thank
you!!!!

[Neil Williams]

I would be grateful if you could provide me with advice.  I received
the summons today and the case is being heard on 11th March.  Thank
you!!!!

Not again!

Isn't this precisely the kind of circumstance for which a Penalty Fare
is intended?

Neil

[turbo]

The Trainline ( www.thetrainline.com) seems to indicate that the journey you
made is available on the 09.20am from Salisbury to London with Network card
with:-
CheapDay return £34.40 but note not valid with CDR at £22.70
Saver Return at £34.50 nut not valid with Saver return at £22.75
TravelCard off peak at £39.80 but not with Travelcard off-peak at £26.25
Standard Day Return at £53.60
Travelcard Peak at £63

and then some first class tickets.

It all depends what you asked for at the booking office. If you asked for a
Cheap Day retrun or Saver return or Travelcard off peak , and the booking
office failed to sell you the right ticket .. well there you go M'Lord, twas
their own mistake.... now about damages , let me see.....

If you specified the price as well or gave a misleading indication of the
time of travel, well you takes your punishment...
Demonstrate to the magistrates that there are so many variations of tickets
all with different restrictions , compounded by additional restictions on
the network card, none of which information is available unless you carry a
National Fares Manual the size of 6 telephone directories, just to catch a
train......

If the Booking Office sold you a more expensive ticket when a cheaper ticket
could have been used, the best you would get would be the train operator
offering a voucher for the difference if you are lucky, no question of them
being taken to Magistrates court, all seems to be so one sided if you ask
me...

[Roland Perry]

Post by turbo
The Trainline ( www.thetrainline.com) seems to indicate that the journey you
made is available on the 09.20am from Salisbury to London with Network card
with:-
CheapDay return £34.40 but note not valid with CDR at £22.70
Saver Return at £34.50 nut not valid with Saver return at £22.75
TravelCard off peak at £39.80 but not with Travelcard off-peak at £26.25
Standard Day Return at £53.60
Travelcard Peak at £63

CDR restriction seems to be C4:

By any train except those
timed to arrive at London
Terminals or Kensington
Olympia Mon-Fri before 1000
and connecting trains

So maybe it was a Saver? 4B

By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays -
Fridays before 0930; but
allowed from any station (and
connecting services) on:
0820 Yeovil Junc-London
Waterloo_(from Salisbury
______only)

[snip others]

And that is the train in question. In other word, both are OK.

So it is all about the validity of the Network card.

http://www.railcard.co.uk/network

Time Restrictions & Minimum Fares

Discounts are available after 10:00 Mondays to Fridays and all day on
weekends and public holidays.

And I don't see an easement for Salisbury.

Presumably the QJump printout referred to earlier, claimed that the card
*could* be used on the 0920. How explicitly does it say that?

As for buying the ticket at the station, was that done on the Monday
morning? Was it clear which train you were going to catch. Or was it
bought some time before and could have been for any train?

[r***@btinternet.com]

Post by Roland Perry

The Trainline (www.thetrainline.com) seems to indicate that the journey you
made  is available on the 09.20am from Salisbury to London with Network card
with:-
CheapDay return  £34.40 but note not valid with CDR at £22.70
Saver Return at £34.50 nut not valid with Saver return at £22.75
TravelCard off peak at £39.80 but not with Travelcard off-peak at £26.25
Standard Day Return at £53.60
Travelcard Peak at £63

By any train except those
timed to arrive at London
Terminals or Kensington
Olympia Mon-Fri before 1000
and connecting trains
So maybe it was a Saver? 4B
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays -
Fridays before 0930; but
allowed from any station (and
0820  Yeovil Junc-London
       Waterloo_(from Salisbury
______only)
[snip others]
And that is the train in question. In other word, both are OK.
So it is all about the validity of the Network card.
http://www.railcard.co.uk/network
    Time Restrictions & Minimum Fares
    Discounts are available after 10:00 Mondays to Fridays and all day on
    weekends and public holidays.
And I don't see an easement for Salisbury.
Presumably the QJump printout referred to earlier, claimed that the card
*could* be used on the 0920. How explicitly does it say that?
As for buying the ticket at the station, was that done on the Monday
morning? Was it clear which train you were going to catch. Or was it
bought some time before and could have been for any train?
--
Roland Perry

Being curious and at a loose end this afternoon, I have tried to
simulate OP's purchase.

Test 1 was a stratight purchase

Test 2 was a purchase with a Network card, and on using the 0920 the
price remained the same (£34.50), but at no point did website or T&Cs
indicate that a Network Card was invalied before 10.00.

Test 3 was a repeat with the Network card but with a post 1000 dep,
BUT the price had the Network discount making the fare £22.75.



Clearly if OP had used webiste for purchase and no warnings are thrown
up, the SWT is on a sticky wicket.

You cannot reasonably expect everyone to be aware of all T&Cs for
tickets, particularly if user is either foreign and or non-English
speaking (no Polish translations on Trainline yet....), so it is
incumbent on website provided to alert.

On this basis OP should get a good brief and chance his day in court.


Reasonable doubt and all that........

[Mizter T]

Post by r***@btinternet.com
Being curious and at a loose end this afternoon, I have tried to
simulate OP's purchase.
Test 1 was a stratight purchase
Test 2 was a purchase with a Network card, and on using the 0920 the
price remained the same (£34.50), but at no point did website or T&Cs
indicate that a Network Card was invalied before 10.00.
Test 3 was a repeat with the Network card but with a post 1000 dep,
BUT the price had the Network discount making the fare £22.75.
Clearly if OP had used webiste for purchase and no warnings are thrown
up, the SWT is on a sticky wicket.
You cannot reasonably expect everyone to be aware of all T&Cs for
tickets, particularly if user is either foreign and or non-English
speaking (no Polish translations on Trainline yet....), so it is
incumbent on website provided to alert.
On this basis OP should get a good brief and chance his day in court.
Reasonable doubt and all that........

Good point, but the thing is you can feed in the fact that you hold a
Railcard and still get offered all kinds of non Railcard-discounted
advance purchase fares.

I've just copied Test 2 above, and the matrix has two CDRs on offer at
£22.70 and £34.40. It is only when you click on the actual fares that
it becomes fully apparent that one is the "Original Adult Full Fare"
and the other is the "Original Adult Railcard Fare".

Moving the matrix towards earlier trains means the Railcard-discounted
fare are no longer shown, and thus moving the matrix towards later
trains means the full price fare disappears.

I'm not quite sure how the fares could be better presented when one is
looking for departures that are on the cusp of the time a particular
Railcard becomes valid.

However if someone had checked the fares on QJump and had thus
mistakenly been led to believe that a Network Railcard discount was on
offer, they might well have realised that something was awry when the
ticket they purchased with a Network Railcard discount only cost
£22.70, rather than the £34.40 that QJump would have quoted for a
departure at that time in the morning.

[naked_draughtsman]

Post by Mizter T
Good point, but the thing is you can feed in the fact that you hold a
Railcard and still get offered all kinds of non Railcard-discounted
advance purchase fares.
I've just copied Test 2 above, and the matrix has two CDRs on offer at
£22.70 and £34.40. It is only when you click on the actual fares that
it becomes fully apparent that one is the "Original Adult Full Fare"
and the other is the "Original Adult Railcard Fare".

Slightly irrelevant here but if you said you had a railcard but bought
one of the non discounted tickets online would it have the railcard
type printed on the ticket yet cost the higher fare?

That would make a valid ticket appear invalid at a glance unless the
person checking the ticket happened to know what the fare was.

peter

[Mizter T]

Post by naked_draughtsman

Post by Mizter T
Good point, but the thing is you can feed in the fact that you hold a
Railcard and still get offered all kinds of non Railcard-discounted
advance purchase fares.
I've just copied Test 2 above, and the matrix has two CDRs on offer at
£22.70 and £34.40. It is only when you click on the actual fares that
it becomes fully apparent that one is the "Original Adult Full Fare"
and the other is the "Original Adult Railcard Fare".

Slightly irrelevant here but if you said you had a railcard but bought
one of the non discounted tickets online would it have the railcard
type printed on the ticket yet cost the higher fare?
That would make a valid ticket appear invalid at a glance unless the
person checking the ticket happened to know what the fare was.
peter

I can't be 100% certain but I'm pretty sure that if you buy a non-
discounted ticket from TheTrainline then there won't be any Railcard
markings on the ticket whatsoever. It would be quite illogical if a
Railcard type was printed on the ticket, but then again these things
aren't always that logical!

[cat]

Thank you for all your advice, I appreciate your time and thoughts.

A few clarifying points:

1) The Qjump website at that time did not let you buy a ticket with a
network card returning on any train before the 09.20am, but you could
buy the ticket with a return at 09.20. My understanding was therefore
that it took the network card time restrictions into account.

2) I was asked to pay the difference by the ticket inspector, but I
refused because I had a print-off from Qjump indicating (as I thought)
that the ticket was valid for the return leg of 09.20am Monday. A
decision I regret now, since this would obviously have been an easier
solution, but my position was that it is incredibly difficult to get
money back from train companies once they have taken it.

3) I was travelling on the return leg and didn't really pay any
attention on what is written on the ticket.

I therefore consider that I bought the ticket in good faith and
conducted due diligence to find the appropriate ticket. Will this be
taken into account?

Thanks again, Cat

[Paul Scott]

Post by cat
Thank you for all your advice, I appreciate your time and thoughts.
1) The Qjump website at that time did not let you buy a ticket with a
network card returning on any train before the 09.20am, but you could
buy the ticket with a return at 09.20. My understanding was therefore
that it took the network card time restrictions into account.
2) I was asked to pay the difference by the ticket inspector, but I
refused because I had a print-off from Qjump indicating (as I thought)
that the ticket was valid for the return leg of 09.20am Monday. A
decision I regret now, since this would obviously have been an easier
solution, but my position was that it is incredibly difficult to get
money back from train companies once they have taken it.
3) I was travelling on the return leg and didn't really pay any
attention on what is written on the ticket.
I therefore consider that I bought the ticket in good faith and
conducted due diligence to find the appropriate ticket. Will this be
taken into account?
Thanks again, Cat

Are they going to produce your signed application form for your Network
Card, the bit where you acknowleged the terms and conditions? (I've often
wondered if they keep the forms...)

Paul

[j***@hotmail.co.uk]

Post by Paul Scott

Post by cat
Thank you for all your advice, I appreciate your time and thoughts.
1) The Qjump website at that time did not let you buy a ticket with a
network card returning on any train before the 09.20am, but you could
buy the ticket with a return at 09.20.  My understanding was therefore
that it took the network card time restrictions into account.
2) I was asked to pay the difference by the ticket inspector, but I
refused because I had a print-off from Qjump indicating (as I thought)
that the ticket was valid for the return leg of 09.20am Monday.  A
decision I regret now, since this would obviously have been an easier
solution, but my position was that it is incredibly difficult to get
money back from train companies once they have taken it.
3) I was travelling on the return leg and didn't really pay any
attention on what is written on the ticket.
I therefore consider that I bought the ticket in good faith and
conducted due diligence to find the appropriate ticket.  Will this be
taken into account?
Thanks again, Cat

Are they going to produce your signed application form for your Network
Card, the bit where you acknowleged the terms and conditions? (I've often
wondered if they keep the forms...)
Paul- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The network railcard is fairly unusual in that on the front in red
letters it states that it is not valid for discount before 1000 am mon
- fri.

[j***@hotmail.co.uk]

.
2) I was asked to pay the difference by the ticket inspector, but I
refused because I had a print-off from Qjump indicating (as I
thought)
that the ticket was valid for the return leg of 09.20am Monday.  A
decision I regret now, since this would obviously have been an easier
solution, but my position was that it is incredibly difficult to get
money back from train companies once they have taken it.

Does the print out show any connection between the ticket purchased
and the journey being made. If so i think you have a good case. If
however it just shows a journey enquiry then you chances are much
weaker. The problem is that on the front of the railcard are written
the words NOT VALID BEFORE 1000AM MON - FRI.

3) I was travelling on the return leg and didn't really pay any
attention on what is written on the ticket.
I dont know what you mean by this. What information was written on
the front of the ticket?

[Mizter T]

Post by Roland Perry

The Trainline (www.thetrainline.com) seems to indicate that the journey you
made is available on the 09.20am from Salisbury to London with Network card
with:-
CheapDay return £34.40 but note not valid with CDR at £22.70
Saver Return at £34.50 nut not valid with Saver return at £22.75
TravelCard off peak at £39.80 but not with Travelcard off-peak at £26.25
Standard Day Return at £53.60
Travelcard Peak at £63

By any train except those
timed to arrive at London
Terminals or Kensington
Olympia Mon-Fri before 1000
and connecting trains
So maybe it was a Saver? 4B
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays -
Fridays before 0930; but
allowed from any station (and
0820 Yeovil Junc-London
Waterloo_(from Salisbury
______only)

Stupid question but where are you getting the above information about
Saver validity from? (And what is all the underscoring after Salisbury
intended to indicate?)

It doesn't appear in NFM98 section M (South), which is the "Local
Ticket Validity Easements" section (PDF):
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM98/NFM98_South_M.pdf

Post by Roland Perry
[snip others]
And that is the train in question. In other word, both are OK.
So it is all about the validity of the Network card.
http://www.railcard.co.uk/network
Time Restrictions & Minimum Fares
Discounts are available after 10:00 Mondays to Fridays and all day on
weekends and public holidays.
And I don't see an easement for Salisbury.

The NFM section that I linked to above contains info on ticket
easements - other operators that appear there (FGW, Southern,
Southeastern) *do* have specific easements for the Network Railcard,
but South West Trains *do not* - this may well explain why the OP was
told by SWT that Network Railcards are never valid before 10.00 (i.e.
because this is always the case on SWT).

This tallies with SWT apparently being one of the TOCs that is at best
lukewarm on the whole Network Railcard scheme.

Post by Roland Perry
Presumably the QJump printout referred to earlier, claimed that the card
*could* be used on the 0920. How explicitly does it say that?
As for buying the ticket at the station, was that done on the Monday
morning? Was it clear which train you were going to catch. Or was it
bought some time before and could have been for any train?

The OP should take note that (nowadays at least) QJump is merely a
branded front-end of TheTrainline interface, hence all the references
to TheTrainline by other posters (they are to all intents and purposes
the same site).

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Mizter T

Post by Roland Perry
So maybe it was a Saver? 4B
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays -
Fridays before 0930; but
allowed from any station (and
0820 Yeovil Junc-London
Waterloo_(from Salisbury
______only)

Stupid question but where are you getting the above information about
Saver validity from?

It's from the (now out of date) Avantix software.

Post by Mizter T
(And what is all the underscoring after Salisbury
intended to indicate?)

It seems to be the Avantix way of doing a paragraph indent. (Although
from other examples one would also have expected underlines in front of
"Waterloo".)

[John B]

Post by cat
Given that I travelled with the ticket in good faith and I did my
research online beforehand, should I plead not guilty to the court
summons?
I would be grateful if you could provide me with advice. I received
the summons today and the case is being heard on 11th March. Thank
you!!!!

That really, really sucks.

(cue: a bunch of eejits trying to defend SWT for doing something which
is clearly and obviously indefensible.)

The answer is that legally speaking, you aren't guilty [reasonable
belief, mens rea, etc]; but magistrates have a nasty habit of
convicting people who are legally not guilty in this kind of case -
they're pretty good about throwing out evidence that's obviously made-
up, but not at detailed arguments about legal minutiae.

So don't ask for advice here - get the best actual lawyer you can
afford and ask them what they reckon your chances of acquittal are,
how any kind of appeal process would work, what the fines would be and
how much the court fees would be - and then make a decision based on
which course of action would be the least costly to your wallet and
reputation.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

[Bill Borland]

Post by John B

Post by cat
Given that I travelled with the ticket in good faith and I did my
research online beforehand, should I plead not guilty to the court
summons?

The answer is that legally speaking, you aren't guilty [reasonable
belief, mens rea, etc]; but magistrates have a nasty habit of
convicting people who are legally not guilty in this kind of case -
they're pretty good about throwing out evidence that's obviously made-
up, but not at detailed arguments about legal minutiae.
So don't ask for advice here - get the best actual lawyer you can
afford and ask them what they reckon your chances of acquittal are,
how any kind of appeal process would work, what the fines would be and
how much the court fees would be - and then make a decision based on
which course of action would be the least costly to your wallet and
reputation.

What *exactly* are you charged with? If it is simply "travelling
without a valid ticket" you are guilty, and that's that; if the
charge includes something like "and with intent to avoid paying the
correct fare" then a good lawyer should be able to convince the
magistrate that you had no such intent.
But as someone above remarked, why did you not merely have to pay
a "penalty fare"? Were you rude or violent towards the gripper?

[Barry Salter]

Post by Bill Borland
What *exactly* are you charged with? If it is simply "travelling
without a valid ticket" you are guilty, and that's that; if the
charge includes something like "and with intent to avoid paying the
correct fare" then a good lawyer should be able to convince the
magistrate that you had no such intent.
But as someone above remarked, why did you not merely have to pay
a "penalty fare"? Were you rude or violent towards the gripper?

Depending on the journey, a better question would be "Why did you not
merely have to pay the Excess to an undiscounted ticket?" (which is what
the Ticket Examiner's Handbook specifies)

Cheers,

Barry

[Walter Mann]

Post by Barry Salter
Depending on the journey, a better question would be "Why did you not
merely have to pay the Excess to an undiscounted ticket?" (which is what
the Ticket Examiner's Handbook specifies)

Precisely so.. even in a Penalty Fares area the rule is that you shouldn't
be charged a Penalty Fare merely by virtue of the fact that an otherwise
valid ticket is subject to time restrictions. [NRCOC 12a]

Unfortunately, this person appears to have been given, and to have declined,
the opportunity to pay exactly that excess on the day; assuming that SWT has
made reasonable efforts subsequently to take payment through the ordinary
channels, I suppose a court appearance would be the only resort.

[Mizter T]

Post by Bill Borland
What *exactly* are you charged with? If it is simply "travelling
without a valid ticket" you are guilty, and that's that; if the
charge includes something like "and with intent to avoid paying the
correct fare" then a good lawyer should be able to convince the
magistrate that you had no such intent.
But as someone above remarked, why did you not merely have to pay
a "penalty fare"? Were you rude or violent towards the gripper?

But it's not as simple as that - if someone is found "travelling
without a valid ticket" that fact in and of itself does *not* make
someone guilty. I'll admit I'm hazy on the details but it's all about
whether the passenger intended to avoid paying their fare, non?

If merely "travelling without a valid ticket" did make someone guilty
then I'd suggest the majority of this newsgroup would be guilty - most
of us will have got on board a train from a station that didn't have
any ticket selling facilities. I've certainly done so many times at
stations that are supposed to be in Penalty Fare areas, because the
ticket machine was out of action (and the permit to travel machine
wasn't turned on either). Indeed, if one is paying full fare then one
can jump on many intercity trains and just buy a ticket on board.

The law is not so black and white, because neither is life.

[Mark Annand]

Post by Mizter T
If merely "travelling without a valid ticket" did make someone guilty
then I'd suggest the majority of this newsgroup would be guilty - most
of us will have got on board a train from a station that didn't have
any ticket selling facilities. I've certainly done so many times at
stations that are supposed to be in Penalty Fare areas, because the
ticket machine was out of action (and the permit to travel machine
wasn't turned on either). Indeed, if one is paying full fare then one
can jump on many intercity trains and just buy a ticket on board.
The law is not so black and white, because neither is life.

OT, but February 17th I found myself in the opposite position: having
bought a ticket, the train arrived full, standing and packed, it left 9
prospective passengers behind, and the next service wasn't for another
two hours. It didn't cross my mind to take SWTs approach and take the
TOC to court, they really need to lighten up.

[Joyce Whitchurch]

Post by Mizter T
If merely "travelling without a valid ticket" did make someone guilty
then I'd suggest the majority of this newsgroup would be guilty - most
of us will have got on board a train from a station that didn't have
any ticket selling facilities.

Don't worry about that one, it's allowed for in the Bye-Laws. Which, for
anyone wondering, can be downloaded from
<http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/>. 18(3) refers.

Sadly, the bye-laws don't seem to consider a situation where the
passenger honestly believes their ticket is valid and the railways think
otherwise. I will be very interested in finding out the magistrates'
view on this (apologies to the OP, I'm sure you don't really want to be
a legal test case).

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:09:18 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch

Post by Joyce Whitchurch

Post by Mizter T
If merely "travelling without a valid ticket" did make someone guilty
then I'd suggest the majority of this newsgroup would be guilty - most
of us will have got on board a train from a station that didn't have
any ticket selling facilities.

Don't worry about that one, it's allowed for in the Bye-Laws. Which, for
anyone wondering, can be downloaded from
<http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/>. 18(3) refers.
Sadly, the bye-laws don't seem to consider a situation where the
passenger honestly believes their ticket is valid and the railways think
otherwise. I will be very interested in finding out the magistrates'
view on this (apologies to the OP, I'm sure you don't really want to be
a legal test case).

The legal system allows for it even if the byelaws don't. Except where
strict liability applies it is usually necessary to have intent or to
act negligently to commit an offence.

[Bevan Price]

Post by Joyce Whitchurch

Post by Mizter T
If merely "travelling without a valid ticket" did make someone guilty
then I'd suggest the majority of this newsgroup would be guilty - most
of us will have got on board a train from a station that didn't have
any ticket selling facilities.

Don't worry about that one, it's allowed for in the Bye-Laws. Which, for
anyone wondering, can be downloaded from
<http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/>. 18(3) refers.
Sadly, the bye-laws don't seem to consider a situation where the passenger
honestly believes their ticket is valid and the railways think otherwise.
I will be very interested in finding out the magistrates' view on this
(apologies to the OP, I'm sure you don't really want to be a legal test
case).
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

The decision may rest on whether or not the court considers the rail
company's conditions are "reasonable". Some courts have been known to throw
out cases where a supplier's terms & conditions are so obscure,
incomprehensible or unreasonable that an ordinary customer cannot be
expected to understand them. I agree with those posters who recommend that
you get a good lawyer to argue your case.

Bevan

[Barry Salter]

Post by Bevan Price
The decision may rest on whether or not the court considers the rail
company's conditions are "reasonable". Some courts have been known to throw
out cases where a supplier's terms & conditions are so obscure,
incomprehensible or unreasonable that an ordinary customer cannot be
expected to understand them. I agree with those posters who recommend that
you get a good lawyer to argue your case.

In this case, however, it's an open and shut case:

The Network Railcard itself, and the Terms and Conditions, quite clearly
state: "on Mondays to Fridays travel is not permitted on any train
departing before 10:00 hours" (or words to that effect) [1]

QJump shows that the discounted ticket is not valid on the 09:20 from
Salisbury. [2]

Despite the above, the OP travelled on the 09:20 and was offered the
opportunity to pay the Excess to the undiscounted fare, which he
declined, and was thus reported for possible prosecution under Byelaw
18, which is backed up by Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

Cheers,

Barry

[1] There are some exceptions, which are listed on the Railcard website.
Salisbury - Waterloo is not one of them.

[2] Mind you, it also implies that the *undiscounted* one is not valid
once the Network Railcard kicks in. ;)

[Roland Perry]

Post by Barry Salter
QJump shows that the discounted ticket is not valid on the 09:20 from
Salisbury.

The OP's main evidence (which I think he hasn't yet described fully
enough) is apparently that Qjump said something different at the time he
was travelling.

[Tony Polson]

Post by Barry Salter
Despite the above, the OP travelled on the 09:20 and was offered the
opportunity to pay the Excess to the undiscounted fare, which he
declined

I think you will find that "he" is in fact a "she":

cat <***@gmail.com>

But I agree entirely with your reasoning - it's a fair cop.

[John B]

Post by Barry Salter

Post by Bevan Price
The decision may rest on whether or not the court considers the rail
company's conditions are "reasonable". Some courts have been known to throw
out cases where a supplier's terms & conditions are so obscure,
incomprehensible or unreasonable that an ordinary customer cannot be
expected to understand them. I agree with those posters who recommend that
you get a good lawyer to argue your case.

No it isn't.

Post by Barry Salter
The Network Railcard itself, and the Terms and Conditions, quite clearly
state: "on Mondays to Fridays travel is not permitted on any train
departing before 10:00 hours" (or words to that effect) [1]

Your footnote is quite important, since it demonstrates that there are
exceptions, and therefore that the wording on the ticket is incorrect
- and therefore that someone could reasonably believe that this was an
exception.

Post by Barry Salter
QJump shows that the discounted ticket is not valid on the 09:20 from
Salisbury. [2]

Not really - if you select "Network Railcard" as a ticket type, qjump
doesn't offer any CDRs at all on the trains before the 0920, and
offers you a fare on the 0920.

While - as it happens - this is the fare for a CDR without a Network
Railcard, Qjump gives you no indication that this is the case.

Therefore, someone could quite reasonably and in good faith believe
that Qjump had told them that a CDR with Network Railcard was valid on
the 0920.

...which *should* be enough to get them off in court, aside for the
utter deference of magistrates to authority figures such as coppers
and RPIs.

Post by Barry Salter
Despite the above, the OP travelled on the 09:20 and was offered the
opportunity to pay the Excess to the undiscounted fare, which he
declined, and was thus reported for possible prosecution under Byelaw
18, which is backed up by Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

I hope the gripper in question, and anyone who supports his actions in
reporting this case for prosecution, gets banged up in Dubai for four
years for possession of a poppy seed bagel [1]. They're both examples
of zero-tolerance and strict liability potentially ruining someone's
life.

This person risks getting a conviction for an offence involving
dishonesty, which could bar them from professions such as lawyer,
teacher or accountant and/or lose them their current job of whatever
description, for *not reading a website properly whilst very clearly
having no intent to defraud anyone* [2]. If anyone thinks that this is
a fair and reasonable outcome, then they are insane.

[1] http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/travel/news/article3333905.ece

[2] If they'd known they were doing something wrong, they'd obviously
have paid the gripper when he offered them an excess - eight quid is
worth it to avoid the consequences of faredodging, whereas I can
entirely see why an someone would be reluctant to pay eight quid they
honestly believed they didn't owe...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

[allan tracy]

It might be an idea to tell us the full story.

[Paul Scott]

Post by cat
I have received a court summons under bye law No. 18(1) for travelling
without a valid ticket. In fact, I thought I was travelling legally -
I had a return purchased with a South West trains network card. I was
travelling on the 9.20am Monday train from Salisbury to London - Qjump
had informed me that for that route and that time I could use the
network discount card (I have a print-out of the Qjump webpage
although this has subsequently been changed on the website). I then
purchased the ticket at the booking office at the station.
Although I faxed this to SWT together with an explanation, they have
informed me that any ticket for travel before 10am purchased with a
network card is invalid, and that this is in the terms and conditions
of the information provided by Qjump.
In fact, I know that the 10 o clock rule is somewhat flexible, since
on some services on that line further away from London, you can travel
significantly before 10am with the network card. Moreover, the Qjump
webpage clearly indicates the times of the trains when you can buy a
ticket with a discount card and when you cannot.
Given that I travelled with the ticket in good faith and I did my
research online beforehand, should I plead not guilty to the court
summons?
I would be grateful if you could provide me with advice. I received
the summons today and the case is being heard on 11th March. Thank
you!!!!

Do you still have the ticket? IMX if they (normally reluctantly) sell a NSE
discounted ticket before 10 am during the week they usually put a stamped
warning on it - did they not do so on this occasion?

Paul

[Peter Masson]

Post by cat
I have received a court summons under bye law No. 18(1) for travelling
without a valid ticket. In fact, I thought I was travelling legally -
I had a return purchased with a South West trains network card. I was
travelling on the 9.20am Monday train from Salisbury to London - Qjump
had informed me that for that route and that time I could use the
network discount card (I have a print-out of the Qjump webpage
although this has subsequently been changed on the website). I then
purchased the ticket at the booking office at the station.
Although I faxed this to SWT together with an explanation, they have
informed me that any ticket for travel before 10am purchased with a
network card is invalid, and that this is in the terms and conditions
of the information provided by Qjump.
In fact, I know that the 10 o clock rule is somewhat flexible, since
on some services on that line further away from London, you can travel
significantly before 10am with the network card. Moreover, the Qjump
webpage clearly indicates the times of the trains when you can buy a
ticket with a discount card and when you cannot.
Given that I travelled with the ticket in good faith and I did my
research online beforehand, should I plead not guilty to the court
summons?
I would be grateful if you could provide me with advice. I received
the summons today and the case is being heard on 11th March. Thank
you!!!!

You say you bought the ticket at the station. When was this, and was it from
the ticekt office or a machine? If it weas from the ticket office on the
morning of travel, even if you asked for a Network Card discounted ticket,
the clerk should have advised you that the ticket was not valid until 1000.
However, if you bought it the night before, specifically asking for the
Network Card ticket, he may have been entitled to assume you understood the
terms asnd conditions. I would agree that you should consider taking legal
advice - it may be worth asking the Citizens Advice bureau in the first
instance.

Peter

[G]

Post by cat
In fact, I know that the 10 o clock rule is somewhat flexible, since
on some services on that line further away from London, you can travel
significantly before 10am with the network card.

Which services *on that line*? I can't find that in the Network Card
conditions? Where is this written down?

I can't see how you can override the conditions of the Network Card
without an explicit easment in the NFM for the ticket you are
purchasing. You have accepted the Network Card T&Cs, which prohibit
travel before 1000 except at specified times on specified routes.

I think the best you could hope for is a claim for compensation from
the ticket office operator or QJump for allegedly giving you negligent
advice that the ticket you were purchasing was valid on that
particular train.

[m***@talktalk.net]

Post by cat
I have received a court summons under bye law No. 18(1) for travelling
without a valid ticket.  In fact, I thought I was travelling legally -
I had a return purchased with a South West trains network card.  I was
travelling on the 9.20am Monday train from Salisbury to London - Qjump
had informed me that for that route and that time I could use the
network discount card (I have a print-out of the Qjump webpage
although this has subsequently been changed on the website).  I then
purchased the ticket at the booking office at the station.
Although I faxed this to SWT together with an explanation, they have
informed me that any ticket for travel before 10am purchased with a
network card is invalid, and that this is in the terms and conditions
of the information provided by Qjump.
In fact, I know that the 10 o clock rule is somewhat flexible, since
on some services on that line further away from London, you can travel
significantly before 10am with the network card.  Moreover, the Qjump
webpage clearly indicates the times of the trains when you can buy a
ticket with a discount card and when you cannot.
Given that I travelled with the ticket in good faith and I did my
research online beforehand, should I plead not guilty to the court
summons?
I would be grateful if you could provide me with advice.  I received
the summons today and the case is being heard on 11th March.  Thank
you!!!!

I can't offer any help or advice only sympathy, but reading all the
correspondence regarding this issue I can't believe how difficult it
is to travel by train. There seems to be 1000 price structures,
numerous networks, discounts etc. Why is it that we seem to
overcomplicate everything in this country.
No wonder for many people it is easier and less stressful to get in
the car!
I remember a holiday in Italy last year when myself and my wife used
the train to travel to and from Lucca to Pisa (40kms) and Florence
(70kms). All we did was turn up at the station and press three buttons
on the automatic machine, insert 2.40 euros for the single to Pisa and
4.40 euros for Florence. A little cheaper than here ( I know the
railways are state owned).
There was no stipulation about times of travel and surprise surprise
the trains were on time.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by m***@talktalk.net
I can't offer any help or advice only sympathy, but reading all the
correspondence regarding this issue I can't believe how difficult it
is to travel by train. There seems to be 1000 price structures,
numerous networks, discounts etc. Why is it that we seem to
overcomplicate everything in this country.

In the hope of filling every train to the gunnels and scraping
enough money to keep the trains running?

Post by m***@talktalk.net
I remember a holiday in Italy last year when myself and my wife used
the train to travel to and from Lucca to Pisa (40kms) and Florence
(70kms). All we did was turn up at the station and press three buttons
on the automatic machine, insert 2.40 euros for the single to Pisa and
4.40 euros for Florence.

The same simplicity would apply here in the equivalent situation, e.g.
Chester to Manchester, although the fares certainly would be higher.

Post by m***@talktalk.net
There was no stipulation about times of travel and surprise surprise
the trains were on time.

Mussolini, you know ;-)

Charlie

[Roland Perry]

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by m***@talktalk.net
I can't offer any help or advice only sympathy, but reading all the
correspondence regarding this issue I can't believe how difficult it
is to travel by train. There seems to be 1000 price structures,
numerous networks, discounts etc. Why is it that we seem to
overcomplicate everything in this country.

In the hope of filling every train to the gunnels and scraping
enough money to keep the trains running?

It seems to be more about pricing people *off* the busy services, and
then applying various sticking plaster (season tickets, cheaper offpeak
and AP tickets) on top of other sticking plaster (easements like the
9.20 from Salisbury) to ensure that a whole tranche of users aren't
priced off permanently.

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by m***@talktalk.net
I remember a holiday in Italy last year when myself and my wife used
the train to travel to and from Lucca to Pisa (40kms) and Florence
(70kms). All we did was turn up at the station and press three buttons
on the automatic machine, insert 2.40 euros for the single to Pisa and
4.40 euros for Florence.

The same simplicity would apply here in the equivalent situation, e.g.
Chester to Manchester, although the fares certainly would be higher.

If the underlying fares are low enough, less sticking plaster is
required.

[Jonathan Morton]

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by m***@talktalk.net
There was no stipulation about times of travel and surprise surprise
the trains were on time.

Mussolini, you know ;-)

<Hancock>: "Before him, surely"...

Regards

Jonathan

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by m***@talktalk.net
I remember a holiday in Italy last year when myself and my wife used
the train to travel to and from Lucca to Pisa (40kms) and Florence
(70kms). All we did was turn up at the station and press three buttons
on the automatic machine, insert 2.40 euros for the single to Pisa and
4.40 euros for Florence.

Simple journeys are not that much different here (and the machine for a
Pisa - Lucca journey was a bit less user-friendly than a UK machine).

A little cheaper than here ( I know the

Post by m***@talktalk.net
railways are state owned).

And a complete financial mess, but outsiders don't know or care.

Post by m***@talktalk.net
There was no stipulation about times of travel and surprise surprise
the trains were on time.

Well, two trains. Hurrah. All 12 of the trains I've caught this week
have been on time, which presumably "proves" ours are better than the
Italian ones!

The simple ticketing is a factor of the simple route. If you had been on
another route the machine would have offered a whole series of different
tickets with different restrictions - though perhaps biased towards
train type rather than time of travel. Here we can generally catch any
type of train but time-restricted, on the continent you can get any
train of the correct category (IR, IC, stops-every-lamp-post, etc).

I had a ticket to Bologna. My train was late, but whereas here I could
just get on the next one, there I had to pay (not very much) to upgrade
to the next tyope of train. You probably wanted a turn-up and go ticket
- had you wanted a TrenOK advance ticket or something would almost
certainly have been more complicated.

And as for the Italian rules about breaking journeys....