NXEC On-Board Restaurants

Post by Matt
Is the on-board restaurant option worthwhile; or is it very expensive
and low quality, like most other food products I've bought on a train?
Matt

In my opinion, it's expensive and high quality. £24 for 2 courses,
£29 for 3. A typical menu is here:
http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com/Onboard-Our-Trains1/Food1/Restaurant/

A significant advantage is you can travel first class for about 2
hours of your 3-hour journey with your Saver ticket.

On weekday evenings, the only trains to York and the north-east with
restaurant and valid for savers are at 1900 and 2000 from Kings X.

John

Tony Polson

2008-02-26 22:10:17 UTC

Post by j***@connectnet.org.uk

Post by Matt
Is the on-board restaurant option worthwhile; or is it very expensive
and low quality, like most other food products I've bought on a train?
Matt

In my opinion, it's expensive and high quality. £24 for 2 courses,
http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com/Onboard-Our-Trains1/Food1/Restaurant/
A significant advantage is you can travel first class for about 2
hours of your 3-hour journey with your Saver ticket.
On weekday evenings, the only trains to York and the north-east with
restaurant and valid for savers are at 1900 and 2000 from Kings X.

I agree the quality is high, based on recent GNER experience just
before NXEC took over, and I understand very little has changed.

However, I disagree that it is expensive. A meal of the same quality
at a good restaurant would cost very little less.

Philip Hardy

2008-02-26 06:38:31 UTC

Post by Matt
Is the on-board restaurant option worthwhile; or is it very expensive
and low quality, like most other food products I've bought on a train?

The price is high, but so is the quality. It's a good treat.

Philip.

Tim

2008-02-26 15:36:26 UTC

Post by Matt
Is the on-board restaurant option worthwhile; or is it very expensive
and low quality, like most other food products I've bought on a train?

Very civilised.

Expensive but
1) You get to sit in first class
2) The food is usually really nice

Tim

Roland Perry

2008-02-26 16:14:55 UTC

Post by Tim
Expensive but
1) You get to sit in first class

Does the restaurant get full on the 19.00 service? If so, is it rationed
on first-come first-served, or does your ticket type matter? (Assuming
FC ticket holders always get first priority).

--
Roland Perry

Howard Fisher

2008-02-26 16:31:47 UTC

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tim
Expensive but
1) You get to sit in first class

Does the restaurant get full on the 19.00 service? If so, is it rationed
on first-come first-served, or does your ticket type matter? (Assuming
FC ticket holders always get first priority).

Don't know if it gets full on that train. But trains out of Kings Cross
I've been on seem to only announce the restaurant to 1st if it's likely
to be busy and follow up with a train wide announcement if there are
seats left.

NXEC seem keener then GNER were on announcing that standard class
passengers will have to vacate their seat after the meal.

--
Howard

allan tracy

2008-02-26 17:40:59 UTC

Post by Howard Fisher
NXEC seem keener then GNER were on announcing that standard class
passengers will have to vacate their seat after the meal.

What I fail to understand is why when there are only three first class
carriages one is effectively being taken out of service as a
restaurant car.

Face it, with first class tickets touching the three hundred quid mark
where is the sense in selling those seats in the restaurant car for 29
quid plus food.

The economics of a separate restaurant car just do not add up and are
hardly an incentive to those travelling with luggage they would prefer
to keep an eye on.

Then it's worse if you have to vacate your seat after finishing your
food because what chance your original seat is still vacant especially
if heading towards London.

At peak times, much better if those seats were sold to first class
ticket holders and then offer what Virgin do - an at seat service for
all first class ticket holders.

For 29 quid you would think the least they could do is bring the food
to your seat, Virgin do it and their food is complimentary.

John B

2008-02-26 19:04:55 UTC

Post by allan tracy
What I fail to understand is why when there are only three first class
carriages one is effectively being taken out of service as a
restaurant car.
Face it, with first class tickets touching the three hundred quid mark
where is the sense in selling those seats in the restaurant car for 29
quid plus food.

Because a standard open ticket on the trains where first class is
anywhere near full at anywhere near full price costs GBP200, and there
are a non-trivial number of customers on those trains who are willing
to pay the extra GBP29 who aren't willing (/whose companies won't
reimburse them if they pay) the full GBP100?

[and remember, if first class is full, then standard passengers don't
get the chance to sit in the restaurant car - standard pax only even
get the chance to use it if FC passengers are taking up fewer than 2
coaches in total...]

Post by allan tracy
The economics of a separate restaurant car just do not add up and are
hardly an incentive to those travelling with luggage they would prefer
to keep an eye on.

I've only used the ECML restaurant cars when travelling with weekend
bags, so can't remember if there's room to look after big luggage or
not. Certainly, if you're doing a day trip, an overnighter, or a
weekender it isn't a problem.

However, ISTR GNER saying that restaurant cars cost them GBPx million
cross-subsidy per year to run (with x was somewhere between 5 and 10,
I think) so you might be right about the economics, depending on
whether they're quantifying the benefits accurately.

Post by allan tracy
Then it's worse if you have to vacate your seat after finishing your
food because what chance your original seat is still vacant especially
if heading towards London.

Depends on which train you board when. If you get on the 0500 ex-
Edinburgh, then you've no problems finding a standard seat when you
get kicked out north of Newcastle shortly before 0700. Are there many
NXEC trains that are so rammed towards London north of Peterborough
that you'd really have to stand for the rest of the journey?

Post by allan tracy
At peak times, much better if those seats were sold to first class
ticket holders and then offer what Virgin do - an at seat service for
all first class ticket holders.

You're assuming there are a sizeable number of would-be first class
pax who don't travel on the peak GNER services because of a lack of
first-class accomodation. I don't believe this is true, particularly
because if FC were full on these trains then no standard pax would
ever get to use the restaurant.

[also, reportedly the next WC franchise will axe first-class at-seat
service]

Post by allan tracy
For 29 quid you would think the least they could do is bring the food
to your seat, Virgin do it and their food is complimentary.

...although it is much less good.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

allan tracy

2008-02-26 19:48:27 UTC

Post by John B
[also, reportedly the next WC franchise will axe first-class at-seat
service]

Well behind that statement, of course, is the (big) assumption that
the DfT will still be micro-managing the franchises by the time the
WCML is up for grabs, way out in 2014, but we could have had two
general elections by then so who knows what the regime will be?

I really can't understand why so many in this group take the DfT so
seriously on its long term intentions when it's such a here today gone
tomorrow political institution. It's quite possible that the DfT's
word may only be good until the next election plus a few feet under
the table months then it's all change.

Anyway, surely this is now a case of Pandora's box and I doubt very
much that WCML first class customers forking out hundreds of quids a
time would remain silent about any such proposal and, no doubt,
neither would BA - a real own goal that one.

Just look at the fuss a few North Wales passengers have stirred up
since losing their HSTs.

I'm sorry but only a deluded very non-real-world civil servant could
ever have come up with that idea.

Paul Scott

2008-02-26 20:18:58 UTC

Post by John B
[also, reportedly the next WC franchise will axe first-class at-seat
service]

I think you've said this before, and I'll reply again. The DfT is not a
transient thing hence having a civil servant as 'permanent secretary', and
I'm sure he'd be quick to remind you that he is not political. It's the
directing politicians that are here today and gone tomorrow - with a bit of
luck...

Paul

allan tracy

2008-02-26 20:37:54 UTC

Post by Paul Scott
I think you've said this before, and I'll reply again. The DfT is not a
transient thing hence having a civil servant as 'permanent secretary', and
I'm sure he'd be quick to remind you that he is not political. It's the
directing politicians that are here today and gone tomorrow - with a bit of
luck...

Yes, and they (the here today gone tomorrow politicians) have a
tendency to head off in completely different directions for which I
quote the very good example of the last Tory Government heading off in
the direction of privatisation. Are you seriously suggesting a Neil
Kinnock Government would have done that?

The current Government does nothing on transport (well as little as it
can get away with) and I'm willing to bet that isn't even sustainable
over the next twenty years, even assuming they were to get the
opportunity, it's not even a direction.

A week really is a long time in politics and no civil servant born has
ever been able to ride the tide oblivious to events.

The way you talk you make it sound as if there's hardly any point
turning up to vote because there's no politics in transport, well I'm
sorry but that's bollocks and there are endless past examples to back
that up.

Paul Corfield

2008-02-26 21:08:31 UTC

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:37:54 -0800 (PST), allan tracy

Do you seriously believe dear old David Cameron will do anything of any
substance for transport? I don't.

Post by allan tracy
A week really is a long time in politics and no civil servant born has
ever been able to ride the tide oblivious to events.

It may well be but the nearest crises that have been transport related
were the Kings Cross Fire on the tube where government are said to have
been shit scared at the consequences given they were in control of LRT.
The other is the petrol blockades when we got fairly close to vital
services being affected and people being a state of panic about their
beloved car transport.

Post by allan tracy
The way you talk you make it sound as if there's hardly any point
turning up to vote because there's no politics in transport, well I'm
sorry but that's bollocks and there are endless past examples to back
that up.

Can you provide 3 examples from your endless list where transport was an
issue of vote winning importance in a general election?

I can't think of one example where it would apply nationally. Locally or
in London then perhaps.

--
Paul C

allan tracy

2008-02-26 21:40:24 UTC

Post by Paul Corfield
Do you seriously believe dear old David Cameron will do anything of any
substance for transport? I don't.

Labour Governments of the sixties took out of the economy for their
precious NHS and education, which is a fine principle, but failed to
put anything back and that's how we ended up being bailed out by the
IMF and with nationalised industries that built Austin Allegros.

I see nothing that's changed with a Labour Government for the
naughties, they all run out of money in the end and that is not
principle that's f**kwitted.

Transport investment is about putting back it's vital for a continuing
and growing economy and on the record of the last, so called, train
hating Tory Government is something they obviously appear to
understand.

ECML electrification, Channel Tunnel, many reopenings, Thameslink,
Jubilee Line, Docklands and seven (yes seven) light rail or metro
systems for those outside of London.

I will leave you to the comparison with the last ten years.

Paul Corfield

2008-02-26 22:05:50 UTC

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:40:24 -0800 (PST), allan tracy

Post by Paul Corfield
Do you seriously believe dear old David Cameron will do anything of any
substance for transport? I don't.

And of course Ted Heath's economic policies had nothing to do with this.

Post by allan tracy
I see nothing that's changed with a Labour Government for the
naughties, they all run out of money in the end and that is not
principle that's f**kwitted.

You never will because you are a committed Tory supporter.

Post by allan tracy
Transport investment is about putting back it's vital for a continuing
and growing economy and on the record of the last, so called, train
hating Tory Government is something they obviously appear to
understand.
ECML electrification, Channel Tunnel, many reopenings, Thameslink,
Jubilee Line, Docklands and seven (yes seven) light rail or metro
systems for those outside of London.

Most of which were very grudgingly provided and several had to be done
to keep their friends in Olympia and York happy and to sustain their
"Docklands vision". Wasn't Thameslink a GLC initiated and funded
scheme? The same GLC that Thatcher abolished.

Post by allan tracy
I will leave you to the comparison with the last ten years.

I'd prefer it if you answered my question about the endless examples of
transport being a crucial general election issue. You can either
provide these examples or you can't.

--
Paul C

allan tracy

2008-02-26 22:24:42 UTC

Post by Paul Corfield
And of course Ted Heath's economic policies had nothing to do with this.

You are correct Heath was tarred with the same brush.

Post by Paul Corfield

Post by allan tracy
I see nothing that's changed with a Labour Government for the
naughties, they all run out of money in the end and that is not
principle that's f**kwitted.

You never will because you are a committed Tory supporter.

No it's because I can add up.

I'm not a Tory supporter - yet.

Post by Paul Corfield

Post by allan tracy
ECML electrification, Channel Tunnel, many reopenings, Thameslink,
Jubilee Line, Docklands and seven (yes seven) light rail or metro
systems for those outside of London.

Facts can be oh so inconvenient.

Post by Paul Corfield

Post by allan tracy
I will leave you to the comparison with the last ten years.

I'd prefer it if you answered my question about the endless examples of
transport being a crucial general election issue. You can either
provide these examples or you can't.

The continued survival of the Heart of Wales line has had everything
to do with general elections - especially when things get, shall we
say, marginal.

Philip Hardy

2008-02-29 07:26:11 UTC

allan tracy wrote:

[snip]

Is your mission on this group to turn every thread you can into a
political rant?

It's getting tiresome.

Philip.

Charlie Hulme

2008-02-26 21:37:34 UTC

Do we really imagine that Ruth Kelly has any plans or strategies of
her own regarding railways? Seems to me that most of the things that
emanate from the 'Government' come from civil service advisors, who do
seem to me to have what could be loosely termed a 'political' agenda.

Charlie

allan tracy

2008-02-26 21:43:45 UTC

Post by Charlie Hulme
Do we really imagine that Ruth Kelly has any plans or strategies of
her own regarding railways?

No, which is precisely why old 'barbed wire knickers' is there.

Tony Polson

2008-02-26 22:19:11 UTC

Do we really imagine that Ruth Kelly has any plans or strategies of
her own regarding railways?

Of course not. She knows she will only be in the job a few months,
and will then be moved to another Ministerial position or out of the
Government altogether. No Secretary of State for Transport will stay
very long in a Labour administration. I don't think the Tories
regarded it as a long term appointment either.

Post by Charlie Hulme
Seems to me that most of the things that
emanate from the 'Government' come from civil service advisors, who do
seem to me to have what could be loosely termed a 'political' agenda.

They certainly have a financial agenda, which you may well feel
justified in interpreting as a political agenda. Personally, I judge
it to be purely financial. The objective is to reduce the proportion
of the financial burden that falls on the taxpayer, that is running at
record levels.

Unfortunately, most of that record level of spending goes to support
the iniquitous system of privatisation that the Tories saddled us
with. So any significant reduction in what the taxpayer coughs up
will have to be made up in higher fares, as lower levels of investment
seem to have been ruled out.

Graeme Wall

2008-02-26 20:24:38 UTC

Post by John B
[also, reportedly the next WC franchise will axe first-class at-seat
service]

What's the election got to do with it? The DfT is not elected and the
incoming government, whatever it's notional complexion, is unlikely to do
more than tinker round the edges.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

allan tracy

2008-02-26 22:28:19 UTC

What's the election got to do with it? The DfT is not elected and the
incoming government, whatever it's notional complexion, is unlikely to do
more than tinker round the edges.

Privatisation was a pretty big tinker then.

Graeme Wall

2008-02-27 08:25:01 UTC

What's the election got to do with it? The DfT is not elected and the
incoming government, whatever it's notional complexion, is unlikely to do
more than tinker round the edges.

Privatisation was a pretty big tinker then.

The tories got their fingers burnt on that one, they are not going to do
anything drastic about the railways again for a generation at least.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

Charlie Hulme

2008-02-29 09:35:06 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
What's the election got to do with it? The DfT is not elected and the
incoming government, whatever it's notional complexion, is unlikely to do
more than tinker round the edges.

Privatisation was a pretty big tinker then.

Suggested by unelected civil servants and advisors.

Charlie

stan5001

2008-02-29 10:00:51 UTC

I see the evening meal has prices as following: 2 courses £24 / 3
courses £29

Is it possible to just have one course still, and pay a suitable
price?

j***@connectnet.org.uk

2008-02-29 11:34:42 UTC

Post by stan5001
I see the evening meal has prices as following: 2 courses £24 / 3
courses £29
Is it possible to just have one course still, and pay a suitable
price?

You must buy a main course. GNER stopped advertising the price for
individual courses some months before they lost the franchise. NXEC
have not changed this.
From what I remember, the bill still shows a price for each course and
a small discount is then applied to reach the £24 / £29 figure.
It is not clear whether customers wanting a main course only are still
welcome, but I would be very surprised if you were refused for a short
journey such as York to Newcastle.

John

John B

2008-02-29 10:27:08 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
What's the election got to do with it? The DfT is not elected and the
incoming government, whatever it's notional complexion, is unlikely to do
more than tinker round the edges.

Privatisation was a pretty big tinker then.

Suggested by unelected civil servants and advisors.

Err, I think John Major's ideology and drive for cash may have had /
some/ effect...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Charlie Hulme

2008-02-29 11:40:11 UTC

Post by John B

Post by Graeme Wall
What's the election got to do with it? The DfT is not elected and the
incoming government, whatever it's notional complexion, is unlikely to do
more than tinker round the edges.

Privatisation was a pretty big tinker then.

Suggested by unelected civil servants and advisors.

Err, I think John Major's ideology and drive for cash may have had /
some/ effect...

John Major had an ideology? I thought he just did what he was
told, provided they let him open the pubs in the afternoon.

Charlie

Tony Polson

2008-02-29 13:17:35 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
What's the election got to do with it? The DfT is not elected and the
incoming government, whatever it's notional complexion, is unlikely to do
more than tinker round the edges.

Privatisation was a pretty big tinker then.

Suggested by unelected civil servants and advisors.

The truth is that it was entirely a political initiative by the
Tories, a policy document being issued within weeks of their winning
the 1992 election. The civil servants were mostly resistant to the
process, and apparently (I am told) some were hugely resistant.

A very small number would have been in favour, because the Tories had
been in power long enough for some senior civil servants to be
supportive of the general principle of privatisation. In the case of
rail, what appeared to be a very real prospect of eliminating
subsidies (ha!) would certainly have seemed attractive.

The paid advisors presumably gave the advice they were paid to give,
which would of course have been favourable: If a government has just
issued a policy document outlining its intention to privatise the
railways, you are hardly likely to find paid advisors that advise
against it, especially when there is the prospect of their gaining
huge sums of money in consultancy fees from the privatisation process.

Charlie Hulme

2008-02-29 14:39:41 UTC

Tony Polson wrote:

[Privatisation]

Post by Tony Polson
The truth is that it was entirely a political initiative by the
Tories, a policy document being issued within weeks of their winning
the 1992 election. The civil servants were mostly resistant to the
process, and apparently (I am told) some were hugely resistant.

If you say so. I do seem to recall John Major himself suggesting
that recreating something like the 'Big Four' - which would surely
have been a better idea than what actually happened.

I just can't bring myself to believe that MPs themselves have
any policy ideas at all. I doesn't seem to be in their nature.
Perhaps just as well, since Mrs Thatcher was something of
an exception!

Charlie

Tony Polson

2008-02-29 21:36:40 UTC

Post by Charlie Hulme
[Privatisation]

If you say so. I do seem to recall John Major himself suggesting
that recreating something like the 'Big Four' - which would surely
have been a better idea than what actually happened.

That was probably a good idea, but it was complicated by two factors.

One was the reluctance of private sector companies to take on anything
quite as large as one of the Big Four, eventually meaning that BR had
to be Balkanised into over 100 companies so they could be sold off to
smaller companies. The other was the EC Directive that the costs of
infrastructure should be separated from the cost of operations, to
allow open access among other things.

The Government of the day got it wrong with the Directive, in that
they thought the only way of complying with it was to set up a track
owning authority. That wasn't the case, however Germany and France
have followed a similar route but over ten years later.

Post by Charlie Hulme
I just can't bring myself to believe that MPs themselves have
any policy ideas at all. I doesn't seem to be in their nature.
Perhaps just as well, since Mrs Thatcher was something of
an exception!

Individual MPs do have policy ideas, and they can bring a private
member's bill, but very few such bills succeed. Ministers do tend to
have their own ideas, and one of the jobs of the civil servant is to
separate the good ideas from the impracticable.

Apart from running the country, the main responsibility of the Civil
Service is to protect Ministers. Often that means protecting them
from their own daft ideas. ;-)

Ian Jelf

2008-03-01 07:47:57 UTC

Post by Tony Polson
Individual MPs do have policy ideas, and they can bring a private
member's bill, but very few such bills succeed. Ministers do tend to
have their own ideas, and one of the jobs of the civil servant is to
separate the good ideas from the impracticable.

And there was innocent me thinking that their job was to do what they
were asked by Ministers....... :-)

Seriously, in a democracy, surely the job of separating the good ideas
from the bad is the responsibility of the electorate? On second
thoughts.......

Post by Tony Polson
Apart from running the country, the main responsibility of the Civil
Service is to protect Ministers. Often that means protecting them from
their own daft ideas. ;-)

I'm beginning to think that "Yes, Minister" was a documentary.

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Tony Polson

2008-03-02 23:38:27 UTC

And there was innocent me thinking that their job was to do what they
were asked by Ministers....... :-)
Seriously, in a democracy, surely the job of separating the good ideas
from the bad is the responsibility of the electorate? On second
thoughts.......

Sometimes the Civil Service also needs to protect voters from the
idiots they voted for. ;-)

Post by Tony Polson
Apart from running the country, the main responsibility of the Civil
Service is to protect Ministers. Often that means protecting them from
their own daft ideas. ;-)

I'm beginning to think that "Yes, Minister" was a documentary.

It was! It was fantastically well-written, and uncannily accurate.
The only difference is that the TV programme was lighthearted, whereas
the Civil Service is altogether more serious.

But the basic principles of the Civil Service are certainly
well-represented in the TV programme, albeit exaggerated for comic
effect. ;-)

Peter Pan

2008-03-03 07:54:43 UTC

Post by Tony Polson

And there was innocent me thinking that their job was to do what they
were asked by Ministers....... :-)
Seriously, in a democracy, surely the job of separating the good ideas
from the bad is the responsibility of the electorate? On second
thoughts.......

Sometimes the Civil Service also needs to protect voters from the
idiots they voted for. ;-)

Post by Tony Polson
Apart from running the country, the main responsibility of the Civil
Service is to protect Ministers. Often that means protecting them from
their own daft ideas. ;-)

I'm beginning to think that "Yes, Minister" was a documentary.

It was! It was fantastically well-written, and uncannily accurate.
The only difference is that the TV programme was lighthearted, whereas
the Civil Service is altogether more serious.
But the basic principles of the Civil Service are certainly
well-represented in the TV programme, albeit exaggerated for comic
effect. ;-)

Its nothing to do with the fact she was black. She just acted like one of
the characters out of the series!

was nothing short of useless!

My letter will be going in the post tonight

Tony Polson

2008-03-03 21:15:51 UTC

Post by Peter Pan
Its nothing to do with the fact she was black. She just acted like one of
the characters out of the series!
was nothing short of useless!
My letter will be going in the post tonight

I do hope you included the reference to Miss Jocelyn.

Roland Perry

2008-03-01 07:57:26 UTC

Private Member's Bills are a red herring. Most of an individual MP's
influence is felt in the various committees, either the standing ones,
or those scrutinising new Bills. They can make their views heard through
asking the right questions in committee or by putting down amendments to
Bills. And then there's the 'questions to ministers' which can be quite
effective in uncovering a new area of policy that needs to be taken into
account.

--
Roland Perry

Peter Pan

2008-03-02 20:39:14 UTC

Post by Roland Perry

Private Member's Bills are a red herring. Most of an individual MP's
influence is felt in the various committees, either the standing ones, or
those scrutinising new Bills. They can make their views heard through
asking the right questions in committee or by putting down amendments to
Bills. And then there's the 'questions to ministers' which can be quite
effective in uncovering a new area of policy that needs to be taken into
account.
--
Roland Perry

Well had breakfast on nxec , great food, but crap service. They limited me
on a tea refill and the attituide was rubbish so will be writing and
complaining tommorrow! the women who served me was like the women out of
little miss jocylin on bbc2 if anyone knows who i am mean!

Phil

Tony Polson

2008-03-02 23:34:32 UTC

Post by Peter Pan
Well had breakfast on nxec , great food, but crap service. They limited me
on a tea refill and the attituide was rubbish so will be writing and
complaining tommorrow! the women who served me was like the women out of
little miss jocylin on bbc2 if anyone knows who i am mean!

Do you mean that she was black?

What on earth does that have to do with anything?

allan tracy

2008-02-26 19:57:57 UTC

Post by John B
You're assuming there are a sizeable number of would-be first class
pax who don't travel on the peak GNER services because of a lack of
first-class accomodation. I don't believe this is true, particularly
because if FC were full on these trains then no standard pax would
ever get to use the restaurant.

Some weekday peak services must be very busy in all clases, it is the
ECML after all.

I guess it comes down to whether or not, when faced with demand from
say advance 1st class reservations, NEEC start selling off the
restaurant seats.

If they do, then effictively they could be denying not just second
class ticket holders but also other first class ticket holders their
breakfast.

Indeed, is it possible to reserve seats in the restaurant car and if
so how does that work come Doncaster when you've finished your food
and there's no spare seats elsewhere?

Roland Perry

2008-02-26 18:45:29 UTC

In message

Post by allan tracy
At peak times, much better if those seats were sold to first class
ticket holders and then offer what Virgin do - an at seat service for
all first class ticket holders.
For 29 quid you would think the least they could do is bring the food
to your seat, Virgin do it and their food is complimentary.

Isn't their complimentary food just a sandwich and a cup of tea?

MML used to do at-seat service for all FC, but the only complimentary
items were tea and biscuits (or a glass of wine in the evening).

You could buy food, but it was bistro snacks, vastly overpriced, and
they hardly made the effort to collect orders.

I wonder if EMT have improved (or even persuaded their staff that there
is life north of Leicester?)

--
Roland Perry

allan tracy

2008-02-26 20:06:55 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Isn't their complimentary food just a sandwich and a cup of tea?

WCML first class on the morning non-stopper Birmingham International -
Euston offers:

Tea or Coffee
Fruit Juice
Toast and Preserves
Full English (if selected) consisting of sausage, bacon, fried slice,
fried egg, grilled tomato, black pudding and mushrooms.
Tea or Coffee to finish

Other services throughout the day offer tea or coffee, selection of
snacks and on the evening services soft or alcoholic drinks.

Everything is complimentary (first class).

Of course, this being Virgin, it costs the best part of £250.

Steve

2008-02-26 19:34:49 UTC

Post by allan tracy
What I fail to understand is why when there are only three first class
carriages one is effectively being taken out of service as a
restaurant car.

Half a carriage is restaurant seating. Admittedly another half a
carriage or so is the kitchen, but you'd still need that if you were
serving meals at-seat as you suggested later in your post (assuming
they were comparable meals and not microwaved burgers!).

Post by allan tracy
Face it, with first class tickets touching the three hundred quid mark
where is the sense in selling those seats in the restaurant car for 29
quid plus food.

You're not comparing like with like. If we take Kings Cross to York
(where the FOR is £297, i.e. touching three hundred quid) then the
First Class fares (on certain trains) range from £73 (two NXEC 1st
Advance 1 singles) up to that £297 FOR, while Standard Class ranges
from £22.50 (two NXEC Standard Advance 1 singles) to SORs at £199. In
other words the savvy and/or flexible 29 quid standard ticket holder
in your example would probably have paid around £50 for an equivalent
advance-purchase First Class Ticket, and the First Class traveller who
either required the flexibility of open returns or was unaware of the
discounts would have paid £199 for an equivalent Standard Class
ticket.

Also, don't forget that you're only selling for a Standard Class fare
those restaurant seats which, on a given service, have not been taken
up by First Class ticket holders and thus would otherwise be earning
£0 - and I've certainly seen restaurant seats on busy services out of
Kings Cross being denied to potential Standard Class diners in case
they were needed by First Class diners boarding at intermediate
stations.

Post by allan tracy
The economics of a separate restaurant car just do not add up...

Perhaps not if you look at restaurant car revenue in isolation, but
for many passengers (I'm one of them) the time saved by dining and
travelling simultaneously tips the balance towards rail travel even
for journeys where the point-to-point timings would be quicker by car.

Post by allan tracy
...and are
hardly an incentive to those travelling with luggage they would prefer
to keep an eye on.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I suspect very few people
leave their luggage in their original coach before moving to the
restaurant car to dine - but in my experience those with very bulky
luggage are often students or families, neither of which appear to be
major users of the restaurant car in any case.

Steve Adams

Philip Hardy

2008-02-26 19:53:30 UTC

Post by Steve

Post by allan tracy
The economics of a separate restaurant car just do not add up...

You could also say that the the economics of (now free) on train WiFi
when viewed in isolation do not add up. Ditto toilets.

GNER have previously said that they believed that provision of the
restaurant (and other facilities) encouraged people to use their
services over the competition and bred loyalty.

Looking at the public support they received for their franchise bid they
certainly had the loyalty. It's difficult to quantify the financial
costs/returns on that though.

Philip.

allan tracy

2008-02-26 20:18:19 UTC

Post by Philip Hardy
GNER have previously said that they believed that provision of the
restaurant (and other facilities) encouraged people to use their
services over the competition and bred loyalty.

Not wishing to be accused of knowing the price of everything and the
value of nothing here, I do applaud NEEC for their decision to retain
restaurant services unlike some other franchises, such as FGW, who
disgracefully seemed to have given up (it seems their customers do not
complain probably because they're just all too grateful that a service
has actually turned up).

I just believe the business model NEEC are applying belongs to the
days of trains composed of 15 mk1s and compartment coaches.

Virgin manage with virtually the same facilities available to NEEC to
deliver an at seat service to all its first class customers.

It just seems to me that the logistics of the GNER/NEEC are far too
complicated and can only suppress demand.

Stimpy

2008-02-26 21:16:33 UTC

I just believe the business model NEEC are applying belongs to the
days of trains composed of 15 mk1s and compartment coaches.

Some of us still appreciate their gesture that those civilised days are not
totally in the past.

Post by allan tracy
Virgin manage with virtually the same facilities available to NEEC to
deliver an at seat service to all its first class customers.

...but a service of a much lesser quality than a GNER/NXEC dinner.

Cats

2008-03-03 18:23:20 UTC

On Feb 26, 5:40 pm, allan tracy <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

Post by allan tracy
For 29 quid you would think the least they could do is bring the food
to your seat,

Unless things have changed since GNER days it's silver service at your
seat.

And quite a few of the 1st class punters have an executive ticket (or
used to in GNER days) which included a meal voucher.

<snip>

Matthew Phillips

2008-03-06 07:50:36 UTC

Post by Cats
<snip>

Post by allan tracy
For 29 quid you would think the least they could do is bring the food
to your seat,

Unless things have changed since GNER days it's silver service at your
seat.

It is indeed silver service: I enjoyed a nice meal on the 16:00 from King's
Cross on Monday, though they did not have any sea bream. The first sitting
might seem a bit early for dinner, but with only five small sandwiches at
lunch I was quite hungry by then. Breakfast on the sleeper that morning was
not up to standard: I was told that because we were diverted via the East
Coast there were no hot bacon or egg rolls available (and there did not seem
to be any newspapers either).

The main difference I noticed since my last meal with GNER a year before was
that the tablecloth and napkins were paper, and I am sure there were real
linen ones either last time or in March 2005 which was the only other time
I've eaten in the restaurant car.

In March 2005 the restaurant car was pretty full for the first sitting, but
they squeezed me in (I was travelling 2nd class). In March 2007 it was not
announced to 2nd class, so presumably full, and I went to the second sitting
after Doncaster: that was half empty. On Monday the restaurant car had a
total of six people dining.

The couple seated opposite me were returning to Aberdeen after five nights in
Paris. They had travelled out first class on NXEC and Eurostar. On the way
back they had come 2nd class. Their comment was that the 2nd class in
Eurostar was very good, but the 2nd class on NXEC seemed to be filthy, which
was why they had decided to have a meal in the restaurant car and travel 1st
class for part of the journey!

I think they were pleased with the journey overall. I got the impression
that they had flown to Paris before, but now Eurostar has moved to St Pancras
and it was easier to get to Paris in one day from Aberdeen, they'd chosen the
train. I don't suppose many transport planners would have counted on
increased traffic for Eurostar originating seven hours away in Aberdeen as a
result of the move: it just shows the benefits are spread pretty wide. Now
if only the London-Edinburgh journey time could be halved...

--
Matthew Phillips
Dundee
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Tony Polson

2008-03-06 11:00:36 UTC

Post by Matthew Phillips
I don't suppose many transport planners would have counted on
increased traffic for Eurostar originating seven hours away in Aberdeen as a
result of the move: it just shows the benefits are spread pretty wide.

You can bet your last £1 that there will be very few Eurostar
passengers whose journey originates or ends at Aberdeen.

The numbers will be vanishingly small.

Roland Perry

2008-02-26 18:41:22 UTC

Post by Howard Fisher
NXEC seem keener then GNER were on announcing that standard class
passengers will have to vacate their seat after the meal.

When I used to travel from Westbury to Paddington on Great Western
(around the time of privatisation) it was easy to spin out breakfast
until after Reading, at which point they didn't disturb you further.

Going the other way, it was never possible to finish dinner by Westbury,
it was always necessary to skip dessert :(

The meals cost a lot less than the FC fare upgrade.

--
Roland Perry

John Salmon

2008-02-26 18:32:43 UTC

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tim
Expensive but
1) You get to sit in first class

Does the restaurant get full on the 19.00 service? If so, is it
rationed on first-come first-served, or does your ticket type
matter? (Assuming FC ticket holders always get first priority).

This has been asked before, specifically in relation to holders of
standard advance purchase tickets who, on a strict (but
seldom-enforced) interpretation of the conditions of their tickets,
are required to occupy *specified* (standard) reserved seats. As far
as I can tell from personal observation and experience, the answer is
that once first class ticket-holders have been accommodated there is
no 'pecking order' for access to the restaurant by standard
passengers, i.e. advance tickets holders have as much chance as other
standard ticket holders, with 'first come first served' applying. If
anyone *knows* (as opposed to *thinks*) differently, please let us
know.

Tim

2008-02-27 13:50:42 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Does the restaurant get full on the 19.00 service? If so, is it rationed
on first-come first-served, or does your ticket type matter? (Assuming
FC ticket holders always get first priority).

Always first come first served when I've been in.

Tim

j***@connectnet.org.uk

2008-02-28 23:21:00 UTC

For evening peak services from Kings Cross (including the Friday
1900), it is prudent to be waiting on the concourse for the platform
to be announced and to join the restaurant car asap. The seats tend
to fill within 5 minutes.

A couple of years ago there was a significant effort to reserve at
least some of the seats on these trains for those with first class
tickets, but I have not seen this happen in the last year.

I believe there are two or three morning southbound trains where the
restaurant is open only to first class ticket holders, but I don't
know of any evening northbound trains with that restriction.

In summary, your ticket type does not matter. And first class ticket
holders appear not always to get priority.

John

Roland Perry

2008-02-29 07:22:13 UTC

Post by j***@connectnet.org.uk

In message

For evening peak services from Kings Cross (including the Friday
1900), it is prudent to be waiting on the concourse for the platform
to be announced and to join the restaurant car asap. The seats tend
to fill within 5 minutes.
A couple of years ago there was a significant effort to reserve at
least some of the seats on these trains for those with first class
tickets, but I have not seen this happen in the last year.
I believe there are two or three morning southbound trains where the
restaurant is open only to first class ticket holders, but I don't
know of any evening northbound trains with that restriction.
In summary, your ticket type does not matter. And first class ticket
holders appear not always to get priority.

I'm a bit confused now. Do FC passengers have to be in the restaurant
car to get a proper meal, or are they served at all the FC seats on the
train?

--
Roland Perry

j***@connectnet.org.uk

2008-02-29 11:19:26 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
I'm a bit confused now. Do FC passengers have to be in the restaurant
car to get a proper meal, or are they served at all the FC seats on the
train?
--
Roland Perry

Full meals are only available in the restaurant.
Hot and cold snacks may be purchased by first class ticket holders and
are served at their seat.
Hot drinks, cold soft drinks and nibbles are complementary for first
class ticket holders and are served at their seat.

John

Charlie Hulme

2008-02-29 09:13:21 UTC

Post by j***@connectnet.org.uk
For evening peak services from Kings Cross (including the Friday
1900), it is prudent to be waiting on the concourse for the platform
to be announced and to join the restaurant car asap. The seats tend
to fill within 5 minutes.

The rush scrum for seats *really* spoils the pleasure of the dining
experience. Why, oh, why, can't places in the restaurant car be
reserved like any other restaurant? If not taken up with in 15 minutes
after departure from KX they could be offered to others.

Charlie

j***@connectnet.org.uk

2008-02-29 11:22:25 UTC

Post by Charlie Hulme
Why, oh, why, can't places in the restaurant car be
reserved like any other restaurant?

The NXEC booking engine allows you to request a reserved seat in the
restaurant. I don't know whether it works.
It is very rare to see a seat reservation card on a seat in a NXEC
restaurant.

John

Shaun M

2008-03-09 22:26:15 UTC

We're traveling from Edinburgh to Inverness in August and have plans
to use the restaurant car on our journey.

There's one train a day in the current timetable, the ex Edinburgh
16.34 (arrives 20.08) and we intend to buy first class singles. Does
anyone know the likelihood, firstly, that this service will be in the
summer timetable, and secondly if the restaurant car will be busy/
open.

Having never used the service before I don't want to get our hopes up
only to find they stop serving at Edinburgh!

Also a little OT but does anyone have a idea what the journey is like
between Edinburgh and Inverness? Is it scenic? Are there any sites
with photos or travelogues on about the route? I love to read about
the journey before I go so I can look out for any interesting sites on
the way.

Peter Masson

2008-03-09 23:26:33 UTC

Post by Shaun M
We're traveling from Edinburgh to Inverness in August and have plans
to use the restaurant car on our journey.
There's one train a day in the current timetable, the ex Edinburgh
16.34 (arrives 20.08) and we intend to buy first class singles. Does
anyone know the likelihood, firstly, that this service will be in the
summer timetable, and secondly if the restaurant car will be busy/
open.
Having never used the service before I don't want to get our hopes up
only to find they stop serving at Edinburgh!
Also a little OT but does anyone have a idea what the journey is like
between Edinburgh and Inverness? Is it scenic? Are there any sites
with photos or travelogues on about the route? I love to read about
the journey before I go so I can look out for any interesting sites on
the way.

It is likely that the train will run in the Summer timetable, and that the
Restaurant Car will be open north of Edinburgh. The NXEC timetable
http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com/Travel-Information/full-timetables/
suggests (grey background) that meals are served to passengers joining at
stations as far as Pitlochry.

It's one of my favourite journeys, across the Grampian Mountains, with
summits at Druimuachdar (1474 ft above sea level) and Slochd (1315 ft)

Peter

Mike Roebuck

2008-03-09 22:27:59 UTC

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:26:15 -0700 (PDT), Shaun M

The train is the Highland Chieftain, from London.

I've used it twice between Edinburgh and Inverness (when GNER were
operating the service). On the first trip they served dinner, IIRC,
until just after leaving Perth. On the second trip, they served one
sitting of dinner, out of Haymarket, which was too early for me. I
don't know whether the recent change of operator has made any
difference to this.

Post by Shaun M
Also a little OT but does anyone have a idea what the journey is like
between Edinburgh and Inverness? Is it scenic? Are there any sites
with photos or travelogues on about the route? I love to read about
the journey before I go so I can look out for any interesting sites on
the way.

It's very scenic once you get north of Stirling, pretty well all the
way to Inverness.

Tony Polson

2008-03-10 12:04:24 UTC

Why don't you contract the train operator, National Express East
Coast, here:

http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com/About-us/Contact-Us/

At least some of the journey is scenic. Here is the list of calling
points:

16:34 Edinburgh Waverley
16:39 Haymarket
17:04 Falkirk Grahamston
17:20 Stirling
17:38 Gleneagles
17:57 Perth
18:32 Pitlochry
19:16 Kingussie
19:29 Aviemore
20:08 Inverness

I suggest you might like to do a Google search on each of these towns
to learn something of their history and what you might see from the
train.

Personally, for the best possible coastal scenery (which is my
preference) I would travel from Edinburgh to Inverness via Dundee and
Aberdeen. You would pass over the iconic Forth Bridge soon after
leaving Edinburgh, with spectacular views over the Firth of Forth. You
would then pass through Fife, with a mixture of rural and coastal
views, then cross the Tay Bridge before arriving in Dundee. And
that's only the first part of the journey!

After Dundee, the line hugs the north coast of the Firth of Tay and
passes through the coastal golf resort of Carnoustie ...

But you can find this out for yourself at Google Maps or try:
http://www.multimap.com/

Select United Kingdom and search on Edinburgh.

Peter Pan

2008-03-10 12:38:03 UTC