Discussion:
GN 379s enter service
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2025-02-11 11:01:19 UTC
Permalink
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-thameslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-timetable-3369224

The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they operated
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.

The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features and
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-11 11:46:46 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-timeta
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they operated
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features and
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had to
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Recliner
2025-02-11 12:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they operated
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features and
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had to
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-11 14:34:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 12:04:57 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they operated
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features and
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it talked
about improving services south of the river.
ColinR
2025-02-11 15:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 12:04:57 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they operated
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features and
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it talked
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are NOT
destined for south of the Thames but they will release other stock for
those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE
The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s will also
provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing Class 387
Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger services south
of London on Southern and across the South East on Southeastern (see
editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
--
Colin
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-11 15:08:38 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it talked
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are NOT
destined for south of the Thames but they will release other stock for
those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE
The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s will also
provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing Class 387
Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger services south
of London on Southern and across the South East on Southeastern (see
editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know wher
e its
reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s at some point.
Recliner
2025-02-11 15:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it talked
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are NOT
destined for south of the Thames but they will release other stock for
those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE
The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s will also
provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing Class 387
Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger services south
of London on Southern and across the South East on Southeastern (see
editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know wher
e its
reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s at some point.
The only ATO is in the Thameslink core. No GN trains run under ATO.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-12 08:14:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:37:19 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it
talked
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are NOT
destined for south of the Thames but they will release other stock for
those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE
The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s will also
provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing Class 387
Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger services south
of London on Southern and across the South East on Southeastern (see
editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know
wher
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
e its
reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s at some
point.
The only ATO is in the Thameslink core. No GN trains run under ATO.
Apart from the ones that do:

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2024/11/13/etcs-now-being-used-on-great-northe
rn-trains-heading-into-moorgate
Clank
2025-02-12 08:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000 ColinR
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it
talked
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are
NOT destined for south of the Thames but they will release other
stock for those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s
will also provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing
Class 387 Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger
services south of London on Southern and across the South East on
Southeastern (see editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know
wher
e its reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s
at some
point.
The only ATO is in the Thameslink core. No GN trains run under ATO.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2024/11/13/etcs-now-being-used-on-
great-northe
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
rn-trains-heading-into-moorgate
Since when did ETCS == ATO?

ETCS *can* enable ATO, but it certainly doesn't imply it.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-12 10:02:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 08:45:30 -0000 (UTC)
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000 ColinR
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it
talked
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are
NOT destined for south of the Thames but they will release other
stock for those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s
will also provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing
Class 387 Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger
services south of London on Southern and across the South East on
Southeastern (see editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know
wher
e its reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s
at some
point.
The only ATO is in the Thameslink core. No GN trains run under ATO.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2024/11/13/etcs-now-being-used-on-
great-northe
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
rn-trains-heading-into-moorgate
Since when did ETCS == ATO?
ETCS *can* enable ATO, but it certainly doesn't imply it.
My understanding is that ATO is enabled between drayton park and moorgate.
Recliner
2025-02-12 10:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 08:45:30 -0000 (UTC)
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000 ColinR
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it
talked
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are
NOT destined for south of the Thames but they will release other
stock for those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s
will also provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing
Class 387 Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger
services south of London on Southern and across the South East on
Southeastern (see editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know
wher
e its reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s
at some
point.
The only ATO is in the Thameslink core. No GN trains run under ATO.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2024/11/13/etcs-now-being-used-on-
great-northe
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
rn-trains-heading-into-moorgate
Since when did ETCS == ATO?
ETCS *can* enable ATO, but it certainly doesn't imply it.
My understanding is that ATO is enabled between drayton park and moorgate.
I don’t think it’s even available on that route or those trains, let alone
enabled.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-12 11:16:40 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 10:24:54 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
My understanding is that ATO is enabled between drayton park and moorgate.
I don’t think it’s even available on that route or those trains, let alone
enabled.
Once you have a speed and braking profile for the line then ATO should simply
be the flick of a software switch.
Recliner
2025-02-12 11:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 10:24:54 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
My understanding is that ATO is enabled between drayton park and moorgate.
I don’t think it’s even available on that route or those trains, let alone
enabled.
Once you have a speed and braking profile for the line then ATO should simply
be the flick of a software switch.
If only it was so simple…

I think the only mainline ATO in the UK is in the TL and XR core sections.
I’m not aware that any more is planned, either, other than on HS2. It’s
only needed on lines with very high frequencies, where all trains need to
be driven with very consistent, quite aggressive, speed profiles.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-12 13:27:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 11:32:53 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 10:24:54 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
My understanding is that ATO is enabled between drayton park and moorgate.
I don’t think it’s even available on that route or those trains, let
alone
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
enabled.
Once you have a speed and braking profile for the line then ATO should simply
be the flick of a software switch.
If only it was so simple

I doubt there's much more to it. The signalling is already aware of where all
trains are and will set max speed or braking accordingly. The only difference
is the driver has to apply power instead of the train computer.
I think the only mainline ATO in the UK is in the TL and XR core sections.
I’m not aware that any more is planned, either, other than on HS2. It’s
only needed on lines with very high frequencies, where all trains need to
be driven with very consistent, quite aggressive, speed profiles.
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to most
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the rush
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO. As for aggressive driving, never
noticed it, in fact I'd call it quite leisurely.
Recliner
2025-02-12 23:26:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 11:32:53 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 10:24:54 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
My understanding is that ATO is enabled between drayton park and moorgate.
I don’t think it’s even available on that route or those trains, let
alone
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
enabled.
Once you have a speed and braking profile for the line then ATO should simply
be the flick of a software switch.
If only it was so simple…
I doubt there's much more to it. The signalling is already aware of where all
trains are and will set max speed or braking accordingly. The only difference
is the driver has to apply power instead of the train computer.
Post by Recliner
I think the only mainline ATO in the UK is in the TL and XR core sections.
I’m not aware that any more is planned, either, other than on HS2. It’s
only needed on lines with very high frequencies, where all trains need to
be driven with very consistent, quite aggressive, speed profiles.
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to most
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the rush
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.

In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
As for aggressive driving, never noticed it, in fact I'd call it quite leisurely.
You think trains should be driven like sports cars? The aggressive driving
means entering platforms quite fast, and braking late, rather than crawling
in, which is what cautious human drivers do. That’s the only way of
handling 20tph.

And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Ken
2025-02-13 07:13:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
As for aggressive driving, never noticed it, in fact I'd call it quite leisurely.
You think trains should be driven like sports cars? The aggressive driving
means entering platforms quite fast, and braking late, rather than crawling
in, which is what cautious human drivers do. That’s the only way of
handling 20tph.
According to a Network Rail chap who escorted us on one of the recent
York Road tunnels tour you can always tell when a Thameslink train is
being driven manually through the core, as they usually are at
weekends, if you know what to look for. They drive in a way a human
never would. For instance they'll accelerate for short distances
towards red signals or platforms where a human would coast.
Post by Recliner
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Roger
2025-02-13 23:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by Recliner
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
As for aggressive driving, never noticed it, in fact I'd call it quite leisurely.
You think trains should be driven like sports cars? The aggressive driving
means entering platforms quite fast, and braking late, rather than crawling
in, which is what cautious human drivers do. That’s the only way of
handling 20tph.
According to a Network Rail chap who escorted us on one of the recent
York Road tunnels tour you can always tell when a Thameslink train is
being driven manually through the core, as they usually are at
weekends, if you know what to look for. They drive in a way a human
never would. For instance they'll accelerate for short distances
towards red signals or platforms where a human would coast.
That's how human bus drivers often seem to drive.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-13 08:32:58 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The idea
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
As for aggressive driving, never noticed it, in fact I'd call it quite
leisurely.
You think trains should be driven like sports cars? The aggressive driving
means entering platforms quite fast, and braking late, rather than crawling
in, which is what cautious human drivers do. That’s the only way of
handling 20tph.
Aggressive driving is Victoria Line performance.
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Whats that got to do with anything? I never said they were.
Recliner
2025-02-13 11:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The idea
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-13 12:09:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The idea
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Recliner
2025-02-13 12:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The idea
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Is reading a skill you once possessed, or did you never learn to do so?
Tweed
2025-02-13 12:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The idea
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Is reading a skill you once possessed, or did you never learn to do so?
Now, at lunchtime, I’ve just counted 16 trains in one direction over the
next hour. I looked at the City Thameslink live departures.
Recliner
2025-02-13 13:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The idea
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Is reading a skill you once possessed, or did you never learn to do so?
Now, at lunchtime, I’ve just counted 16 trains in one direction over the
next hour. I looked at the City Thameslink live departures.
At peak times, 20tph are scheduled for a couple of hours. The number is
lower off-peak.

Of course, the trains arrive from two busy branches shared with other
services in each direction, so often don’t present on time. The 24tph
headroom helps the service catch up when the inevitable gaps occur.
Tweed
2025-02-13 13:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The idea
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Is reading a skill you once possessed, or did you never learn to do so?
Now, at lunchtime, I’ve just counted 16 trains in one direction over the
next hour. I looked at the City Thameslink live departures.
At peak times, 20tph are scheduled for a couple of hours. The number is
lower off-peak.
Of course, the trains arrive from two busy branches shared with other
services in each direction, so often don’t present on time. The 24tph
headroom helps the service catch up when the inevitable gaps occur.
Looking at the timetable for this evening’s peak, it is indeed 20 tph. Not
really that much difference between off peak and peak, the former being 80%
of the latter.

I was in London yesterday - for a provincial like me it seems busy all the
time. Standing room only on the tube at 11am.

Looks like EMR have managed to fix reservations on some of the 222s now as
well. None going to StP but working on the return.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-13 14:05:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 12:52:16 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The
idea
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Is reading a skill you once possessed, or did you never learn to do so?
I could ask the same about your maths skills. If the trains have a 4-7 min
gap in reality - the timetable is a work of fiction - how exactly do 20
trains run through the core in an hour?
Rolf Mantel
2025-02-13 14:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 12:52:16 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The
idea
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Is reading a skill you once possessed, or did you never learn to do so?
I could ask the same about your maths skills. If the trains have a 4-7 min
gap in reality - the timetable is a work of fiction - how exactly do 20
trains run through the core in an hour?
Why do you expect the your one-off observation is typical? May I call
you Murphy?

With a theoretical 24 tph, it is possible to send a train every 2.5 minutes.

Calculating 7 + 2.5 * 19, we're below 55 minutes, so even after the
cockup you've observed there's leeway for another 5 minute cockup
without failing the 20 tph throughput.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-13 16:06:30 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 15:34:03 +0100
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 12:52:16 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section
the
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The
idea
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm
on
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train
(which
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Is reading a skill you once possessed, or did you never learn to do so?
I could ask the same about your maths skills. If the trains have a 4-7 min
gap in reality - the timetable is a work of fiction - how exactly do 20
trains run through the core in an hour?
Why do you expect the your one-off observation is typical? May I call
you Murphy?
Who said its one off? I use it maybe once every 3 weeks atm. Its the same
story almost every time I do.
Recliner
2025-02-13 14:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 12:52:16 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:50:52 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 23:26:44 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Define high frequencies. The Thameslink service is tumbleweed compared to
most
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
tube lines. You might get a train every 3-4 mins in the core section the
rush
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
hour if you're lucky. Hardly requires ATO.
Thanks, Neil—your expert technical opinions are always welcome.
In reality, the core is capable of handling 24tph, and is actually
scheduled for up to 20tph in the peaks. That needs ATO.
Says someone who's clearly never used thameslink on a regular basis. The
idea
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
it manages 24tph is farcical. Last time I tried to use it around 4.30pm on
a weekday at Farringdon there was a 7 min wait until the next train (which
wasn't mine anyway) so I got the tube instead.
Might I suggest you actually try something novel? Just for fun, actually
read a post before arguing with it.
20 * 7 = ..... ? Clue - its not an hour.
Is reading a skill you once possessed, or did you never learn to do so?
I could ask the same about your maths skills. If the trains have a 4-7 min
gap in reality - the timetable is a work of fiction - how exactly do 20
trains run through the core in an hour?
Look up the word "scheduled" — yes, I know it's a difficult, long word for you.

Yesterday evening, 21 trains ran between Farringdon and City Thameslink between 1702 and 1759. So, yes, it can handle
over 20tph. In fact, during the 15 minute period from 1744 to 1759, 6 trains ran. Yes, that's 24tph, showing the value
in having a higher capacity than scheduled.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:ZFD/to/gb-nr:CTK/2025-02-12/1700-1800?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-13 16:08:17 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 14:57:27 +0000
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
I could ask the same about your maths skills. If the trains have a 4-7 min
gap in reality - the timetable is a work of fiction - how exactly do 20
trains run through the core in an hour?
Look up the word "scheduled" — yes, I know it's a difficult, long word for
you.
Yesterday evening, 21 trains ran between Farringdon and City Thameslink
between 1702 and 1759. So, yes, it can handle
Were you there in your anorak with your little notebook checking? No? Get back
to me when you were.
over 20tph. In fact, during the 15 minute period from 1744 to 1759, 6 trains
ran. Yes, that's 24tph, showing the value
in having a higher capacity than scheduled.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:ZFD/to/gb-nr:CTK/2025-02
-12/1700-1800?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
Joke.
Certes
2025-02-13 09:05:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-13 09:10:12 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
Certes
2025-02-13 09:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think they walk to the other end during the manoeuvre to save time.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-13 09:35:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:18:54 +0000
Post by Certes
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think they walk to the other end during the manoeuvre to save time.
Makes sense.
Roland Perry
2025-02-13 09:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
--
Roland Perry
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-13 09:37:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Recliner
2025-02-13 15:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Certes
2025-02-13 15:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Recliner
2025-02-13 16:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Ah, thanks. I thought I'd heard that they could move to and from the depot unmanned.
Graeme Wall
2025-02-13 19:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Ah, thanks. I thought I'd heard that they could move to and from the depot unmanned.
Actually, IIRC that is the one time they are manually driven. Have to
hunt out my original book on the Victoria Line, 6 shillings (30p) from
the ticket offices at most stations on the line!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Nobody
2025-02-13 20:43:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 19:45:16 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Ah, thanks. I thought I'd heard that they could move to and from the depot unmanned.
Actually, IIRC that is the one time they are manually driven. Have to
hunt out my original book on the Victoria Line, 6 shillings (30p) from
the ticket offices at most stations on the line!
There's an emoji for those: 6/- <g>
Graeme Wall
2025-02-13 21:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 19:45:16 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Ah, thanks. I thought I'd heard that they could move to and from the depot unmanned.
Actually, IIRC that is the one time they are manually driven. Have to
hunt out my original book on the Victoria Line, 6 shillings (30p) from
the ticket offices at most stations on the line!
There's an emoji for those: 6/- <g>
I originally typed that and then thought it might be confusing for
anyone brought up purely decimal.

Going back to the original discussion, it doesn't actually say much
about being driven in the depot, just that all movements are under the
control of a centralised "shunter" who issues instructions via the
carrier wave system, implying that depot movements, at least, are
manually driven.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2025-02-13 22:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Nobody
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 19:45:16 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding
with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Ah, thanks. I thought I'd heard that they could move to and from the depot unmanned.
Actually, IIRC that is the one time they are manually driven. Have to
hunt out my original book on the Victoria Line, 6 shillings (30p) from
the ticket offices at most stations on the line!
There's an emoji for those: 6/- <g>
I originally typed that and then thought it might be confusing for
anyone brought up purely decimal.
Going back to the original discussion, it doesn't actually say much
about being driven in the depot, just that all movements are under the
control of a centralised "shunter" who issues instructions via the
carrier wave system, implying that depot movements, at least, are
manually driven.
Yes, also confirmed by:

There are no driverless trains on London Underground, as there is an
occupied cab on all rolling stock fleets. All London Underground trains are
currently either operated manually (when a train driver controls starting
and stopping, the operation of doors and handling of emergencies) or in
semi-automatic mode (when starting and stopping is automated, but a driver
operates the doors and drives the train if needed).

https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/driverless-trains-5
Nobody
2025-02-14 02:00:26 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 21:56:47 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Nobody
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 19:45:16 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Ah, thanks. I thought I'd heard that they could move to and from the depot unmanned.
Actually, IIRC that is the one time they are manually driven. Have to
hunt out my original book on the Victoria Line, 6 shillings (30p) from
the ticket offices at most stations on the line!
There's an emoji for those: 6/- <g>
I originally typed that and then thought it might be confusing for
anyone brought up purely decimal.
Aw, don't do that. So yer point is?

(Acrimony elsewhere in these discussions needs relief occasionally.)
Graeme Wall
2025-02-14 09:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Nobody
There's an emoji for those: 6/- <g>
I originally typed that and then thought it might be confusing for
anyone brought up purely decimal.
Aw, don't do that. So yer point is?
<groan>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2025-02-13 21:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with
no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Ah, thanks. I thought I'd heard that they could move to and from the depot unmanned.
Actually, IIRC that is the one time they are manually driven. Have to
hunt out my original book on the Victoria Line, 6 shillings (30p) from
the ticket offices at most stations on the line!
Yes, I’d remembered that that part was different, but in the wrong
direction!
Charles Ellson
2025-02-13 22:31:04 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 16:53:05 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:19:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:05:08 +0000
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Do the drivers leave the cab?
I think one of the documentaries said they did, in order to walk through
the train to drive it back east.
I watched a couple of those docs, pretty good. I do remember the inordinate
amount of time it took to get this siding reverse working considering the
victoria line managed it in 1967 with analogue electronics and electromechanics.
Do Victoria Line trains drive themselves into a reversing siding with no driver in charge, then drive themselves out
when told to do so by the signalling system?
Unless there's been a recent change, they reverse in the platforms with
drivers changing ends or stepping up or back a service as necessary.
They don't move without a driver at the controls.
Ah, thanks. I thought I'd heard that they could move to and from the depot unmanned.
They can (or at least previously could) move without a driver at the
controls - two incidents in 1990 described in
https://londonist.com/london/transport/a-brief-history-of-the-victoria-line
someone seems to have designed them without the simple precaution of
e.g. disabling the ATO if the cab door was opened or the driver's seat
was vacated.
Ken
2025-02-14 09:34:33 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:31:04 +0000, Charles Ellson
Post by Charles Ellson
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 16:53:05 +0000, Recliner
They can (or at least previously could) move without a driver at the
controls - two incidents in 1990 described in
https://londonist.com/london/transport/a-brief-history-of-the-victoria-line
someone seems to have designed them without the simple precaution of
e.g. disabling the ATO if the cab door was opened or the driver's seat
was vacated.
I remember one of the incidents. The designers did try to prevent such
things happening by having no cab side doors and having an interlock
on the windows. If the window was lowered by more than 4 inches, a
position marked by a red line, the train wouldn't start.
Recliner
2025-02-13 11:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
And here’s a little question for you: where are UK mainline trains
routinely driven automatically with no driver in the cab?
Reversing ECS at Paddington for the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood?
Yes, though I think most of the reversers are for the Shenfield branch;
Abbey Wood trains mostly run through Paddington.

The driver makes sure the train is empty at Paddington, shuts the doors,
and pushes the Auto button(s). They then walk through the 200m train while
the train drives itself to the reversing sidings on the surface, at
Westbourne Park, and then drives itself back when the signalling tells it
to. The driver should be ensconced in the other cab before the train
returns to Paddington.
Clank
2025-02-12 08:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000 ColinR
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it
talked
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are
NOT destined for south of the Thames but they will release other
stock for those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s
will also provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing
Class 387 Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger
services south of London on Southern and across the South East on
Southeastern (see editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know
wher
e its reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s
at some
point.
The only ATO is in the Thameslink core. No GN trains run under ATO.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2024/11/13/etcs-now-being-used-on-
great-northe
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
rn-trains-heading-into-moorgate
Since when did ETCS == ATO?

ETCS *can* enable ATO, but it certainly doesn't imply it.
Clank
2025-02-12 08:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000 ColinR
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it
talked
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are
NOT destined for south of the Thames but they will release other
stock for those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s
will also provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing
Class 387 Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger
services south of London on Southern and across the South East on
Southeastern (see editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know
wher
e its reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s
at some
point.
The only ATO is in the Thameslink core. No GN trains run under ATO.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2024/11/13/etcs-now-being-used-on-
great-northe
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
rn-trains-heading-into-moorgate
Since when did ETCS == ATO?

ETCS *can* enable ATO, but it certainly doesn't imply it.
Clank
2025-02-12 08:58:13 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 08:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Clank wrote:

[...]
Post by Clank
Since when did ETCS == ATO?
ETCS *can* enable ATO, but it certainly doesn't imply it.
So, yeah, sorry about that.

Unfortunately it looks like Pan doesn't have a particularly useful log,
but seeing the event log two "Posting failed: (null)" errors followed by
the "Posting successful" with an article ID.

Interestingly enough, my newsreader (Pan) is open-source. If it happens
again I might be tempted to see if I can fix it so it uses the same
message ID on retries and avoids the duplicates...
ColinR
2025-02-12 11:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
[...]
Post by Clank
Since when did ETCS == ATO?
ETCS *can* enable ATO, but it certainly doesn't imply it.
So, yeah, sorry about that.
Unfortunately it looks like Pan doesn't have a particularly useful log,
but seeing the event log two "Posting failed: (null)" errors followed by
the "Posting successful" with an article ID.
Interestingly enough, my newsreader (Pan) is open-source. If it happens
again I might be tempted to see if I can fix it so it uses the same
message ID on retries and avoids the duplicates...
The marvels of modern technology .....
--
Colin
Bob
2025-02-12 15:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:37:19 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:02:30 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it
talked
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are NOT
destined for south of the Thames but they will release other stock for
those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE
The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s will also
provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing Class 387
Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger services south
of London on Southern and across the South East on Southeastern (see
editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Something else that occured to me - GN is slowly going full ATO. Don't know
wher
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
e its
reached yet but I'm guessing it'll have to be fitted to the 379s at some
point.
The only ATO is in the Thameslink core. No GN trains run under ATO.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2024/11/13/etcs-now-being-used-on-great-northe
rn-trains-heading-into-moorgate
ETCS is a signalling system, not an ATO system. It is possible for ATO
to be used in conjunction with ETCS, for example on the Thameslink core,
but ETCS is not ATO. The ECML south of Grantham is being equipped with
ETCS, and the Northern City line already has it, but the only ATO in use
or planned is the Thameslink core and the Elizabeth line core. The rest
of the ECML, including the Northern City line, will be human drivers
using ETCS signalling.

Robin
Recliner
2025-02-11 15:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 12:04:57 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they operated
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features and
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
Thameslink. Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail and in the article it talked
about improving services south of the river.
The south of the river comment specifically says that the 379s are NOT
destined for south of the Thames but they will release other stock for
those services. Cannot comment on the Moorgate bit.
QUOTE
The introduction of the recently acquired fleet of Class 379s will also
provide sufficient capacity to release a number of existing Class 387
Great Northern trains to support and strengthen passenger services south
of London on Southern and across the South East on Southeastern (see
editor’s notes about the fleet cascade).
UNQUOTE
Yes, the 379s will release 387s to be cascaded to SN, which will release
377s to SE, which can then retire its oldest Networkers. So, in an indirect
way, the 379s will be replacing Networkers (BR’s final EMUs?).
Recliner
2025-02-11 15:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 12:04:57 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they operated
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features and
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
Thameslink.
GN trains don’t (can’t) operate Thameslink services.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Plus the moorgate branch is 3rd rail
Yes, that’s a separate fleet. Why do you think I used the words I did?
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-12 08:17:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:58:12 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 12:04:57 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they
operated
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features
and
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
Thameslink.
GN trains don’t (can’t) operate Thameslink services.
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Recliner
2025-02-12 13:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:58:12 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 12:04:57 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they
operated
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features
and
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
Thameslink.
GN trains don’t (can’t) operate Thameslink services.
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Charles Ellson
2025-02-13 22:41:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:58:12 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 12:04:57 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they
operated
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features
and
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
Thameslink.
GN trains don’t (can’t) operate Thameslink services.
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Don't 717s occasionally go for a trip via the City to Three Bridges
for wheel-turning?
Recliner
2025-02-13 23:04:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:58:12 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 12:04:57 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 11:01:19 GMT
Post by Recliner
From
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-thameslink-railway/pressreleases/govia-tham
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
eslink-railway-brings-in-extra-trains-in-readiness-for-improved-december-r
ble-3369224
The first two four-carriage units (numbers 379002 and 022) entered service
yesterday evening as an eight-carriage train on the existing 17:42 from
King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City service. This morning they
operated
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
the 07:45 from Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross and will continue to
run these two services each weekday. More 379s will come on stream later.
The Class 379 trains, originally built in 2011 for Stansted Express,
feature up-to-date customer information systems, accessibility features
and
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
plug sockets for charging devices. The units have been reactivated by GTR
with support from Porterbrook and Alstom.
What they don't possess is DC 3rd rail equipment so presumably this has had
to
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
be fitted or are they only going to run north of the thames?
Why would GN Kings Cross trains need third rail equipment?
Thameslink.
GN trains don’t (can’t) operate Thameslink services.
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Don't 717s occasionally go for a trip via the City to Three Bridges
for wheel-turning?
Oh, I’m sure ECS moves over the TL route would be possible, but they’d
never operate a TL service.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 09:43:54 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:41:16 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Right, because upgrading the software to ATO would be impossible.

Too short? You do realise some 700s are in 12 car formations so you could
just have two 717s coupled.

Toilets doesn't matter for the shorter routes.

No idea what FC is.
Ulf_Kutzner
2025-02-14 10:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:41:16 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Right, because upgrading the software to ATO would be impossible.
Too short? You do realise some 700s are in 12 car formations so you could
just have two 717s coupled.
Toilets doesn't matter for the shorter routes.
No idea what FC is.
More expensive to use than standard class.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 10:27:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:17:48 +0000
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:41:16 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Right, because upgrading the software to ATO would be impossible.
Too short? You do realise some 700s are in 12 car formations so you could
just have two 717s coupled.
Toilets doesn't matter for the shorter routes.
No idea what FC is.
More expensive to use than standard class.
Ah, trust Recliner to have a special acronym for it, no doubt drops it into
conversations "Oh , as I was sitting in FC the other day on my way to Gatwick
to catch my Ouagadougou flight..."

As if it matters the slightest.
Recliner
2025-02-14 10:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:41:16 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Right, because upgrading the software to ATO would be impossible.
What about the on-train ATO equipment?

Your ignorance about ATO is truly astonishing.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Too short? You do realise some 700s are in 12 car formations so you could
just have two 717s coupled.
Can they even run in multiple?
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Toilets doesn't matter for the shorter routes.
No idea what FC is.
No, you’ve probably never travelled in it.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 11:37:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:41:16 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Right, because upgrading the software to ATO would be impossible.
What about the on-train ATO equipment?
Specifically which extra hardware would it require given that the computer
is already required intervene with max speed and braking for ETCS?
Post by Recliner
Your ignorance about ATO is truly astonishing.
Amaze us with yours then.
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
No idea what FC is.
No, you’ve probably never travelled in it.
Wouldn't be mug enough to pay the extra just for a slightly wider seat.
Rolf Mantel
2025-02-14 12:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 12:28:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 13:20:13 +0100
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Cynic :)
Recliner
2025-02-14 12:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
So, for example, are they fitted with cab monitors for longer trains? Can
the drivers even control the doors in the second unit? Do the PA and PIS
work in it? Can the drivers see the CCTV in the second unit? Can
passengers in it speak to the driver? How many cars can be controlled?
Are the train computers designed to work in conjunction with each other?
What about SDO? As the trains are OPO, is it legal to have no staff in the
second unit? Then there’s the business of the third rail/pan switchover at
Farringdon and City Thameslink—do 717s have the right warning gear?
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 14:49:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How about
some citations now and then?
Recliner
2025-02-14 15:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything?
Because I'm always right and you're invariably wrong when we argue. On the rare occasions that you say something that's
correct, I agree with you.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
How about
some citations now and then?
OK, Mr Ignoramus: where do you think either fleet could run in multiple?
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 15:10:05 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:03:46 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything?
Because I'm always right and you're invariably wrong when we argue. On the
I see we've entered the realm of fantasy.
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
How about
some citations now and then?
OK, Mr Ignoramus: where do you think either fleet could run in multiple?
So, you can't cite anything, you were just guffing as usual with nothing to
back it up.
Recliner
2025-02-14 15:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:03:46 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything?
Because I'm always right and you're invariably wrong when we argue. On the
I see we've entered the realm of fantasy.
OK, name a single instance where you were right and I was wrong.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
How about
some citations now and then?
OK, Mr Ignoramus: where do you think either fleet could run in multiple?
So, you can't cite anything, you were just guffing as usual with nothing to
back it up.
I'm still awaiting your cite for the claim that ATO was in use on the Moorgate line.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 16:07:59 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:18:16 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
I see we've entered the realm of fantasy.
OK, name a single instance where you were right and I was wrong.
I have better things to do that go back over old threads. I can't even remember
what we discussed yesterday never mind going back days or weeks.
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
So, you can't cite anything, you were just guffing as usual with nothing to
back it up.
I'm still awaiting your cite for the claim that ATO was in use on the Moorgate line.
I thought it was, seems it isn't. Unlike you I admit when I'm wrong. You just
double down on it.

Still waiting for the proof that 717s can't run in multiple.
Tweed
2025-02-14 15:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How about
some citations now and then?
700scare either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 15:10:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:04:49 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How about
some citations now and then?
700scare either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
The topic was the 717s running in multiple which would give a 12 car train.
The 700s already run as 12 car trains on some routes.
Recliner
2025-02-14 15:19:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:04:49 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How about
some citations now and then?
700scare either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
The topic was the 717s running in multiple which would give a 12 car train.
They were designed purely for the Moorgate line, which has a maximum train length of 6 cars.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
The 700s already run as 12 car trains on some routes.
Yes, of course. But, as I said, they can't run in multiple.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 16:02:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:19:46 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:04:49 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How about
some citations now and then?
700scare either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
The topic was the 717s running in multiple which would give a 12 car train.
They were designed purely for the Moorgate line, which has a maximum train length of 6 cars.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
The 700s already run as 12 car trains on some routes.
Yes, of course. But, as I said, they can't run in multiple.
So you keep saying though with so far nothing to back that claim up.
me
2025-02-14 20:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:04:49 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT Recliner
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in
multiple that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised
feature, bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer
sues for the tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How
about some citations now and then?
700scare either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in
any but a handful of stations?
The topic was the 717s running in multiple which would give a 12 car train.
They were designed purely for the Moorgate line, which has a maximum
train length of 6 cars.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
The 700s already run as 12 car trains on some routes.
Yes, of course. But, as I said, they can't run in multiple.
So you keep saying though with so far nothing to back that claim up.
It would seem unlikely that they cannot run in multiple, at least with the
capability of moving a preceding failed train or tugging one as ECS.
Recliner
2025-02-14 21:33:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by me
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:04:49 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT Recliner
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in
multiple that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised
feature, bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer
sues for the tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How
about some citations now and then?
700scare either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in
any but a handful of stations?
The topic was the 717s running in multiple which would give a 12 car train.
They were designed purely for the Moorgate line, which has a maximum
train length of 6 cars.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
The 700s already run as 12 car trains on some routes.
Yes, of course. But, as I said, they can't run in multiple.
So you keep saying though with so far nothing to back that claim up.
It would seem unlikely that they cannot run in multiple, at least with the
capability of moving a preceding failed train or tugging one as ECS.
Yes, they can almost certainly rescue each other or run as ECS. But they
don’t need to be fitted out to run in normal passenger service in multiple,
and therefore won’t be. As I listed previously, they would need a host of
capabilities that simply won’t have been wired or programmed in, as they’ll
never be needed.
Recliner
2025-02-14 15:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:42:07 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How about
some citations now and then?
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.

As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-14 16:05:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:16:54 +0000
Post by Recliner
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL
stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Jesus, how many years ago was that? The LU service has vastly improved since
then so can cope with people changing there though I imagine the pax would be
a lot happier just sitting on the same train.
Recliner
2025-02-14 16:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:16:54 +0000
Post by Recliner
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL
stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Jesus, how many years ago was that?
Not that long. I also remember that you couldn’t understand that having a
junction severely restricted capacity on the through route. There’s no way
the current capacity could have been delivered if that branch hadn’t been
closed.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
The LU service has vastly improved since
then so can cope with people changing there though I imagine the pax would be
a lot happier just sitting on the same train.
If Moorgate is their destination, it would be easier to change
cross-platform at Finsbury Park. That line also has a vastly improved
service, and much-improved trains. The very shabby old 313s were an
embarrassment.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-15 10:30:25 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 16:59:58 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:16:54 +0000
Post by Recliner
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL
stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Jesus, how many years ago was that?
Not that long. I also remember that you couldn’t understand that having a
junction severely restricted capacity on the through route. There’s no way
the current capacity could have been delivered if that branch hadn’t been
closed.
If the junction was still there the capacity would remain the same with some
trains going to and from moorgate. Services impacted from the south would
simply terminate at Blackfriars or City TL just like they use to in the past.
The number of people travelling through the core from north of london to south
of london is probably small and mostly limited to pax to/from Gatwick.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
The LU service has vastly improved since
then so can cope with people changing there though I imagine the pax would be
a lot happier just sitting on the same train.
If Moorgate is their destination, it would be easier to change
cross-platform at Finsbury Park. That line also has a vastly improved
service, and much-improved trains. The very shabby old 313s were an
embarrassment.
Maybe, but the service IME can be flakey and while finsbury to moorgate
via TL would be 3 (4 if trains stopped at barbican going south) stops, the
same via the GN line is 5 and at a slower speed.
Roland Perry
2025-02-15 12:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 16:59:58 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:16:54 +0000
Post by Recliner
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL
stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Jesus, how many years ago was that?
Not that long. I also remember that you couldn’t understand that having a
junction severely restricted capacity on the through route. There’s no way
the current capacity could have been delivered if that branch hadn’t been
closed.
If the junction was still there the capacity would remain the same with some
trains going to and from moorgate. Services impacted from the south would
simply terminate at Blackfriars or City TL just like they use to in the past.
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2025-02-15 12:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 16:59:58 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:16:54 +0000
Post by Recliner
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL
stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Jesus, how many years ago was that?
Not that long. I also remember that you couldn’t understand that having a
junction severely restricted capacity on the through route. There’s no way
the current capacity could have been delivered if that branch hadn’t been
closed.
If the junction was still there the capacity would remain the same with some
trains going to and from moorgate. Services impacted from the south would
simply terminate at Blackfriars or City TL just like they use to in the past.
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
He also appears not to realise that conflicting routes over flat junctions
restrict capacity. So, northbound trains from Moorgate got in the way of
southbound trains to Blackfriars (and vice versa). So the former
arrangement (which merely duplicated a frequent LU service):

- forced much shorter trains than can now operate
- reduced services north of Farringdon
- greatly reduced Thameslink services
- blocked the links between the TL and XR platforms

So, getting rid of that flat junction was a key part of the whole project.
Without doing so would have made the London Bridge rebuilding and Canal
Tunnels redundant.
M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-15 16:00:04 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 12:48:14 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
He also appears not to realise that conflicting routes over flat junctions
restrict capacity. So, northbound trains from Moorgate got in the way of
southbound trains to Blackfriars (and vice versa). So the former
How long does a 100m long train doing 20mph take to cross a junction? I'll
save you working it out - 11 seconds.
Recliner
2025-02-15 16:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 12:48:14 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
He also appears not to realise that conflicting routes over flat junctions
restrict capacity. So, northbound trains from Moorgate got in the way of
southbound trains to Blackfriars (and vice versa). So the former
How long does a 100m long train doing 20mph take to cross a junction? I'll
save you working it out - 11 seconds.
Now do the sum with the right inputs.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2025-02-15 17:05:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 16:35:53 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 12:48:14 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
He also appears not to realise that conflicting routes over flat junctions
restrict capacity. So, northbound trains from Moorgate got in the way of
southbound trains to Blackfriars (and vice versa). So the former
How long does a 100m long train doing 20mph take to cross a junction? I'll
save you working it out - 11 seconds.
Now do the sum with the right inputs.
Which are?

Irrelevant anyway. Doesn't matter if it was 5 seconds or 30 , its still not
going to impact on a 3-4 min gap if they timetable it correctly.

M***@DastardlyHQ.org
2025-02-15 15:58:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 12:27:52 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 16:59:58 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:16:54 +0000
Post by Recliner
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL
stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Jesus, how many years ago was that?
Not that long. I also remember that you couldn’t understand that
having a
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
junction severely restricted capacity on the through route. There’s
no way
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
the current capacity could have been delivered if that branch hadn’t
been
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
closed.
If the junction was still there the capacity would remain the same with some
trains going to and from moorgate. Services impacted from the south would
simply terminate at Blackfriars or City TL just like they use to in the past.
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
A reduction in what capacity? Through the core yes, but I suspect the vast
majority of pax going north get off at blackfrairs and city TL. Ditto going
south the train pretty much empties at farringdon IME.
Roland Perry
2025-02-15 16:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 12:27:52 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 16:59:58 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:16:54 +0000
Post by Recliner
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL
stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Jesus, how many years ago was that?
Not that long. I also remember that you couldn’t understand that
having a
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
junction severely restricted capacity on the through route. There’s
no way
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
the current capacity could have been delivered if that branch hadn’t
been
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
closed.
If the junction was still there the capacity would remain the same with some
trains going to and from moorgate. Services impacted from the south would
simply terminate at Blackfriars or City TL just like they use to in the past.
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
A reduction in what capacity?
Doesn't matter. You said that (and I quote) "the current capacity could
have been delivered".
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Through the core yes, but I suspect the vast majority of pax going
north get off at blackfrairs and city TL. Ditto going south the train
pretty much empties at farringdon IME.
Doesn't matter, the whole point of Thameslink (which has obviously
escaped you) is to increase the capacity of the whole Thameslink network
by NOT NEEDING TO reverse trains at SPILL/Farringdon and London
Bridge/Blackfriars, rather than running them through.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2025-02-15 16:31:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 16:03:09 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
If the junction was still there the capacity would remain the same with some
trains going to and from moorgate. Services impacted from the south would
simply terminate at Blackfriars or City TL just like they use to in the
past.
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Roland Perry
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
A reduction in what capacity?
Doesn't matter. You said that (and I quote) "the current capacity could
have been delivered".
No I didn't. Go read 13 lines above. The overall capacity of getting people
into london would remain the same, NOT the capacity through the core.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Through the core yes, but I suspect the vast majority of pax going
north get off at blackfrairs and city TL. Ditto going south the train
pretty much empties at farringdon IME.
Doesn't matter, the whole point of Thameslink (which has obviously
escaped you) is to increase the capacity of the whole Thameslink network
by NOT NEEDING TO reverse trains at SPILL/Farringdon and London
Bridge/Blackfriars, rather than running them through.
Thameslink is almost entirely about getting people into london from the north
and south, not to get them through it and out the other side. That part is
just a nice to have.
Recliner
2025-02-15 16:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 12:27:52 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 16:59:58 GMT
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 15:16:54 +0000
Post by Recliner
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any but
a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact, many TL
stations had to be lengthened even for
12-car trains, and they're often a tight fit.
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the
Farringdon southbound platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Jesus, how many years ago was that?
Not that long. I also remember that you couldn’t understand that
having a
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
junction severely restricted capacity on the through route. There’s
no way
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
the current capacity could have been delivered if that branch hadn’t
been
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
closed.
If the junction was still there the capacity would remain the same with some
trains going to and from moorgate. Services impacted from the south would
simply terminate at Blackfriars or City TL just like they use to in the past.
Good grief! And you claim that terminating services like that isn't a
"reduction in capacity". !?!?!?!
A reduction in what capacity?
Doesn't matter. You said that (and I quote) "the current capacity could
have been delivered".
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Through the core yes, but I suspect the vast majority of pax going
north get off at blackfrairs and city TL. Ditto going south the train
pretty much empties at farringdon IME.
Doesn't matter, the whole point of Thameslink (which has obviously
escaped you) is to increase the capacity of the whole Thameslink network
by NOT NEEDING TO reverse trains at SPILL/Farringdon and London
Bridge/Blackfriars, rather than running them through.
Some do reverse at Blackfriars, which was always the plan. It was meant to
be the Sutton services, but after complaints, some of those do run through.
me
2025-02-14 20:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT Recliner
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in
multiple that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised
feature, bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer
sues for the tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How
about some citations now and then?
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any
but a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact,
many TL stations had to be lengthened even for 12-car trains, and
they're often a tight fit.
Some still have not been lengthened with the resultant warnings not to
travel in selected coaches for some stations.
Post by Recliner
As I recall, Neil was one of the people who complained bitterly that the
Moorgate TL link was cut in order to make the Farringdon southbound
platform just long enough for 12 cars.
Recliner
2025-02-14 21:33:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by me
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Post by Rolf Mantel
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:41:32 GMT Recliner
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in
multiple that take several years to fix.
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised
feature, bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer
sues for the tricky 5%.
Neither the 700s nor the 717s are designed to run in multiple in service.
Why do you always expect us to take your word for everything? How
about some citations now and then?
700s are either 8 or 12 car. Would 2 8 car units in multiple fit in any
but a handful of stations?
They certainly wouldn't fit in Farringdon! Or Blackfriars. In fact,
many TL stations had to be lengthened even for 12-car trains, and
they're often a tight fit.
Some still have not been lengthened with the resultant warnings not to
travel in selected coaches for some stations.
Yes, and they therefore need automatic SDO and the warning system (as well
as displaying the carriage numbers). 717s don’t need either, as they don’t
run in multiple.
me
2025-02-14 20:34:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own
classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
Or don't get fixed. 378s can run in multiple but not with everything working
past the first 8(?) vehicles. In normal service they only run as single
units as hardly any of the platforms on their home territory will take a 10
coach train. As ECS it doesn't matter if the passenger-handling stuff like
CCTV does not work fully.
Post by Rolf Mantel
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
Roland Perry
2025-02-15 07:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by me
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own
classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
Or don't get fixed. 378s can run in multiple but not with everything working
past the first 8(?) vehicles. In normal service they only run as single
units as hardly any of the platforms on their home territory will take a 10
coach train.
I'm a bit confused here. Aren't 378's 4-car units, so three units would
be 12-car (not 10). Also there are plenty of stations that will accept
12-car trains, just not some of the more rural ones.
Post by me
As ECS it doesn't matter if the passenger-handling stuff like
CCTV does not work fully.
Post by Rolf Mantel
You know from software industry: delivier 80% of the promised feature,
bring another 15% in SP1 or 3 and wait till the customer sues for the
tricky 5%.
--
Roland Perry
Ken
2025-02-15 10:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by me
Or don't get fixed. 378s can run in multiple but not with everything working
past the first 8(?) vehicles. In normal service they only run as single
units as hardly any of the platforms on their home territory will take a 10
coach train.
I'm a bit confused here. Aren't 378's 4-car units, so three units would
be 12-car (not 10). Also there are plenty of stations that will accept
12-car trains, just not some of the more rural ones.
They're five-car units now, although they started off shorter.
Roland Perry
2025-02-15 12:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
Post by me
Or don't get fixed. 378s can run in multiple but not with everything working
past the first 8(?) vehicles. In normal service they only run as single
units as hardly any of the platforms on their home territory will take a 10
coach train.
I'm a bit confused here. Aren't 378's 4-car units, so three units would
be 12-car (not 10). Also there are plenty of stations that will accept
12-car trains, just not some of the more rural ones.
They're five-car units now, although they started off shorter.
Sorry, I missed the violent swerve from talking about 379's to the
interjection about 378's.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2025-02-15 10:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by me
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
Post by Recliner
Can they even run in multiple?
Are there any EMUs that can't run in multiple with their own classmates?
There shouldn't but often there are restrictions on running in multiple
that take several years to fix.
Or don't get fixed. 378s can run in multiple but not with everything working
past the first 8(?) vehicles. In normal service they only run as single
units as hardly any of the platforms on their home territory will take a 10
coach train.
I'm a bit confused here. Aren't 378's 4-car units, so three units would
be 12-car (not 10).
The 378s are 5-car, while the newer 710s are 4-car. So a hypothetical
10-car train would be a pair of 378s.
Post by Roland Perry
Also there are plenty of stations that will accept
12-car trains, just not some of the more rural ones.
Not on the LO network. Many platforms needed to be lengthened even for four
and five car trains.
Coffee
2025-02-14 11:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:41:16 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Right, because upgrading the software to ATO would be impossible.
Too short? You do realise some 700s are in 12 car formations so you could
just have two 717s coupled.
Toilets doesn't matter for the shorter routes.
No idea what FC is.
You wait till you're older.
Ken
2025-02-14 19:15:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 11:51:53 +0000, Coffee
Post by Coffee
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:41:16 +0000
Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:52:42 +0000, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@DastardlyHQ.org
So what would stop the 717s being used on Thameslink if required?
Too short; no ATO; no toilets; no FC.
Right, because upgrading the software to ATO would be impossible.
Too short? You do realise some 700s are in 12 car formations so you could
just have two 717s coupled.
Toilets doesn't matter for the shorter routes.
No idea what FC is.
You wait till you're older.
The way it's going there probably won't be any in a few years.
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