Why are the Wensleydale Railway running out of cash ?

[MikeT]

Today I saw a letter from the Wensleydale Railway that claims it needs
help.

To quote a few lines direct from the letter:-

"WE ARE NOT ABLE TO GENERATE SUFFICIENT INCOME, FROM TICKET AND OTHER
SALES, TO MATCH OUR RUNNING COSTS."

"ITS IN ITS BEST CONDITION FOR 50 YEARS"

"FINANCIAL ANGELS NEEDED"

"TOP PRIORITY IS TO INCREASE FOOD AND DRINKS SALES"

"INVESTORS MONEY HAS BEEN LARGELY USED TO .. INSTALL PASSING LOOPS,
PURCHASE AND RENOVATE ESSENTIAL ROLLING STOCK"

This looks like pretty serious stuff to me. Considering they have had
two share offers and according to the letter are going to re-launch
another, what are they spending all the money on.

The only essential rolling stock that I've seen there is the works
train (ballast wagons), and that was bought before they re-opened.

According to the out of date website they are running a single train up
and down the line a few times a day, yet the have passing loops, so why
not have two trains at any one time. On the last timetable change they
even cancelled a train, so there were less running, I suppose to save
even more money.

I like the idea of asking for money, then saying that the top priority
is to get passengers to spend more money buying drinks. They have
already had a good shouting down for overcharging on the recent events
- Loco hauled service and Thomas day.

I would have thought that getting a better service is the top priority.
Its about time this railway started to have some respect for its
shareholders and give them what the so graciously gave their money for,
and not just use it to play at trainsets.

They are trying to get £100,000 by the end of July. Then What?. Will
we get more trains operating, better facilities, better information
about services, I wouldn't have thought so. To quote another line

OF COURSE, IT WOULD NOT BE RIGHT OR FAIR TO MAKE THIS APPEAL UNLESS WE
WERE REALISTICALLY CONFIDENT THAT THE RAILWAY CAN IN THE SHORT TERM BE
MADE TO PAY ITS WAY.

"In The Short Term", does this mean they'll be a letter each month
asking for another £100,000 to run a single train. We'll have to wait
and see.

MikeT

[Dave X]

"MikeT" <***@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message news:***@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


Wwe were up at Leyburn during the Bank Holiday at the beginning of May for
the Dales Food Festival and we had intended to include a trip on the
Wensleydale railway whilst we were there.

We didn't for two reasons

1) It was expensive (£10 each return for a trip in a DMU)

2) There were hardly any trains running (every two hours!), even on a Bank
Holiday Weekend and as a result the times didn't fit with our other plans.

Turning to running costs, if they are intending to run the trains as a
"public service", why does the normal timetable totally miss out the morning
and evening peaks (ie getting people from the dales to and from work) ?

The entire regular service seems to consist of running 4 trains each way in
the middle of the day - is it any wonder they are not carrying enough
passengers?

I'd like to see them do well, but I can only see them struggling
unfortunately.

Dave

[Neil Williams]

Post by Dave X
Turning to running costs, if they are intending to run the trains as a
"public service", why does the normal timetable totally miss out the morning
and evening peaks (ie getting people from the dales to and from work) ?

The trouble is that the public service is provided by the parallel
(and very well-run) Dales and District bus services 156/157. The
railway won't be a useful public service until it reaches
Northallerton, at which point (if it runs a frequent enough service)
it might be worthy of local authority subsidy to provide a public
service.

Until then, it might be best off concentrating its efforts on
weekends/bank holidays and making itself more interesting for the
tourist market.

Neil

[Ronnie Clark]

Post by Neil Williams
Until then, it might be best off concentrating its efforts on
weekends/bank holidays and making itself more interesting for the
tourist market.

I think this is the problem they're suffering from - marketing themself as a
proper railway but running as a heritage railway. It's suiting neither
market, so they're struggling.

[Chippy]

Post by Ronnie Clark
I think this is the problem they're suffering from - marketing themself as a
proper railway but running as a heritage railway. It's suiting neither
market, so they're struggling.

Several heritage lines have attempted in the past to be 'proper'
railways, all without success (cue indignant ramblings about RH&DR
school trains, and/or status of line).

The fact is that the commercial reality of running a branch line is
that it won't pay, it is unlikely to provide a significantly better
service than is (or could) be provided by bus, and that any impact upon
local travel patterns is likely to be minimal.

So that leaves heritage lines - now a very competitive and
over-provided market. The emphasis has shifted away from historical
accuracy and preservation to attracting the wider public to themed
events. I'd say that the WR doesn't really have what it takes to
succeed.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Neil Williams
Until then, it might be best off concentrating its efforts on
weekends/bank holidays and making itself more interesting for the
tourist market.

In other words, stop being so pretentious.

Charlie

[Neil Williams]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:36:47 GMT, Charlie Hulme

Post by Charlie Hulme
In other words, stop being so pretentious.

Indeed. It would be *nice* for it to be part of the national network,
but that can't happen realistically until it is subsidised, and for
that to happen it would need to offer an equivalent service to the
local bus that parallels it.

The bus service is a very professionally-operated one with newish
vehicles and friendly drivers, which offers a similar speed of service
and a higher frequency.

I liked the idea, and I *have* used it as a public transport service
on one occasion, but realistically it is aimed at the wrong market.

Neil

[Ross]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:54:27 GMT, Neil Williams wrote in
<***@news.tesco.net>, seen in uk.railway:

[Wensleydale]

Post by Neil Williams
I liked the idea, and I *have* used it as a public transport service
on one occasion, but realistically it is aimed at the wrong market.

I get the impression that the WR is an attempt at RossRail in the real
world, and like RR there is no way on earth it can possible work in
RL.

You can't have a trainspotters playing-at-trains-when-we-want railway
providing a viable public service, and especially not in an area with
few passengers. Well, not unless it's owned by a single-minded
billionaire [1] who's quite happy to cover its costs, and then you'd
have to say it wasn't viable in any real sense, *and* they'd still
have to provide a realistic level of service, at which point it would
cease being a toy to play with and I suspect that quite a few people
would walk away.


[1] Not me, and if I was in that position I'd be reopening Belgium's
Vennbahn (which is mostly a strip of Belgium in Germany) and
discussing through running onto German rails and possibly elsewhere in
Belgium too. At lest the Vennbahn could be used for a reasonable PT
service for the Eifel national park and maybe even for an Aachen -
Eupen /Liège stopping service.

[Sue McNaughton]

Post by Ross
I get the impression that the WR is an attempt at RossRail in the real
world, and like RR there is no way on earth it can possible work in
RL.
You can't have a trainspotters playing-at-trains-when-we-want railway
providing a viable public service, and especially not in an area with
few passengers.

This came up a while ago on Mid-Hants, when someone ambitiously
suggested running a service into Alton for commuters. The idea rapidly
died once it was pointed out that such a service would have to run all
week, all year; worse, it would also have to run early in the morning
and into the evening to connect with the commuter trains at Alton, and
since there was no way you could get sufficient volunteer signalmen,
guards, drivers etc to sign on at some unearthly hour in the morning, or
sufficient to run two shifts to cover such a long day, the railway would
have to take on a lot more paid staff. And there just ain't the number
of potential pax to cover those costs. End of bright idea.

We _do_ provide a bit of limited PT, for locals popping into town in the
middle of the day, and for walkers and cyclists, but it's very much
incidental to our 'real' business, which is 'leisure and pleasure'
(trainspotters-playing-at-trains can do 'leisure and pleasure' quite
well. With a bit of commitment. Come to think of it, quite a lot of
commitment) so they have to take their chances with a timetable designed
on that basis.

[Martin Underwood]

This came up a while ago on Mid-Hants, when someone ambitiously suggested
running a service into Alton for commuters. The idea rapidly died once it
was pointed out that such a service would have to run all week, all year;
worse, it would also have to run early in the morning and into the evening
to connect with the commuter trains at Alton, and since there was no way
you could get sufficient volunteer signalmen, guards, drivers etc to sign
on at some unearthly hour in the morning, or sufficient to run two shifts
to cover such a long day, the railway would have to take on a lot more
paid staff. And there just ain't the number of potential pax to cover
those costs. End of bright idea.

I suppose the advantage that the WR has over steam railways such as the
Watercress or the Bluebell is that its trains are diesel, which require much
less preparation beforehand and cleaning afterwards. But even so, you still
need *some* staff, even if not quite so many, to drive and fire, control the
signals, sell tickets etc.

And early/late running is a bit of a risk: will it attract sufficient
passengers to pay its way.

Whatever the WR may say are its aims, I think most people think of it as a
tourist attraction; it seems to have failed to convince local people to use
it. Slow journeys that don't connect the two mains towns in the dale
(Leyburn and Bedale) with Northallerton; running only in the middle of the
day; and infrequent services (only every two hours) - these don't really
make the service attractive either to commuters or to shoppers. All of which
makes that extension to Northallerton, together with some increase in speed
and adjustment of the timetable, absolutely essential if the railway is to
survive.

I bet these points are being made endlessly at the crisis meetings that I'm
sure the WR have been holding. I wish them the best of luck.

[MikeT]

The local people just appear to have been forgotten.

They bleet on about being a COMMUNITY RAILWAY, yet no-one will use the
line on a regular basis unless they end up paying less than using a car
to travel. This means that if someone lives in The Dales and wants to
travel into Northallerton daily, they have a few fundemental problems.

Unless they live within a few hundred yards of a station, they have a
walk to the station and then from the "temporary" station into
Northallerton each day, which could add upto 40 minutes onto the
journey time ... which is about all it would take door to door in a
car.

Secondly, according to their website, it would cost you £10 a day ..
unless they come up with a scheme to reward frequent travellers .. then
it would massively reduce the cost of travel, which in turn means less
income, so extending to Northallerton will probably not generate as
much money as they are hoping, and therefore not be the golden ticket
to glory they are after.

Also if you look at the ticket prices it costs the same for an ALL DAY
ROVER as it does for one RETURN between Leeming Bar & Redmire. Whats
the sense in that??

Can someone please explain what they mean by a Community Railway ??

[Tony Polson]

Post by MikeT
Can someone please explain what they mean by a Community Railway ??

I suspect less about what the WR is, more about what it is *not*.
It is not part of National Rail, and it is not "preserved".

So they probably cast around for a title, and someone suggested
"Community Railway". No-one could think of a better idea, so they all
went down to the local pub and celebrated ...

;-)

[Ross]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:37:27 +0100, Sue McNaughton wrote in

Post by Sue McNaughton

Post by Ross
I get the impression that the WR is an attempt at RossRail in the real
world, and like RR there is no way on earth it can possible work in
RL.
You can't have a trainspotters playing-at-trains-when-we-want railway
providing a viable public service, and especially not in an area with
few passengers.

This came up a while ago on Mid-Hants, when someone ambitiously
suggested running a service into Alton for commuters. The idea rapidly
died once it was pointed out that such a service would have to run all
week, all year; worse, it would also have to run early in the morning
and into the evening to connect with the commuter trains at Alton, and
since there was no way you could get sufficient volunteer signalmen,
guards, drivers etc to sign on at some unearthly hour in the morning, or
sufficient to run two shifts to cover such a long day, the railway would
have to take on a lot more paid staff. And there just ain't the number
of potential pax to cover those costs. End of bright idea.

Yup. This is the problem which immediately put the kibosh on
suggestions that the SVR should run commuter & shopper services to
connect with the main line at Kidderminster.

And both MHR and SVR have the benefit of local commuter flows into a
major city which could be tapped. I'm not sure if the WR could tap
into a York/Leeds or Newcastle-bound market even if the other factors
could be addressed.

Post by Sue McNaughton
We _do_ provide a bit of limited PT, for locals popping into town in the
middle of the day, and for walkers and cyclists, but it's very much
incidental to our 'real' business, which is 'leisure and pleasure'

Same with the SVR, I believe.

Post by Sue McNaughton
(trainspotters-playing-at-trains can do 'leisure and pleasure' quite
well. With a bit of commitment. Come to think of it, quite a lot of
commitment)

Yes indeedy. And I think that if WR had gone for that market, instead
of the RossRail-like-"pretend-we're-serious-players" stance, they
could have made a much better fist of it.

[Tony Polson]

Post by Sue McNaughton
This came up a while ago on Mid-Hants, when someone ambitiously
suggested running a service into Alton for commuters. The idea rapidly
died once it was pointed out that such a service would have to run all
week, all year; worse, it would also have to run early in the morning
and into the evening to connect with the commuter trains at Alton, and
since there was no way you could get sufficient volunteer signalmen,
guards, drivers etc to sign on at some unearthly hour in the morning, or
sufficient to run two shifts to cover such a long day, the railway would
have to take on a lot more paid staff. And there just ain't the number
of potential pax to cover those costs. End of bright idea.
We _do_ provide a bit of limited PT, for locals popping into town in the
middle of the day, and for walkers and cyclists, but it's very much
incidental to our 'real' business, which is 'leisure and pleasure'
(trainspotters-playing-at-trains can do 'leisure and pleasure' quite
well. With a bit of commitment. Come to think of it, quite a lot of
commitment) so they have to take their chances with a timetable designed
on that basis.

I believe the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway runs(/ran?) shoppers
trains specifically for locals.

The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways offer substantial discounts
to local people and their trains seem to be surprisingly well used by
local people.

The West Somerset Railway was originally intended to offer a
timetabled year-round service between Taunton and Minehead but I
believe that the NUR (now RMT) destroyed any chance of that through
restrictive practices.

[Stephen Hughes]

Post by Tony Polson
The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways offer substantial discounts
to local people and their trains seem to be surprisingly well used by
local people.

Likewise the ELR. If you live in certain postcodes you qualify - I
can't recall the actual discount but it was very good and there did seem
a lot of people using it for shopping the time we travelled.

Just a shame I've now lost faith in the ELR - a speculative visit to
Heywood yesterday was greeted by a locked station and no information
whatsoever. Got home to find they were running trains, only between Bury
and Rawtenstall. How much would it have cost to put a poster to that
effect up or even a timetable for the week? Certainly less than they
lost by us turning around and going elsewhere...

[MikeT]

Stephen Hughes wrote:
How much would it have cost to put a poster to that effect up or even a
timetable for the week? Certainly less than they lost by us turning
around and going elsewhere...

This, from what I hear, is what they have done at the WR. They had put
up some large information boards at all the stations to give details of
the services, but these have now been taken down.

Maybe they are to buy "National Rail standard" ones with some of the
£100,000 they plan to get for this month.

Here is an article from the local paper Darlington & Stockton Times
http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/the_north_east/dst/NY0.html

Maybe they could ask Hambleton Council for some of the £1.1 million
its going to put into Bedale Station, as it will be a waste of money if
the railway goes belly up.

[c***@aol.com]

IIRC the NUR insisted that the replacement buses between Taunton and
Minehead should be staffed by NUR members, thus preserving some of
their members' jobs, and they therefore regarded any replacement rail
service as a threat to this.

At the time this semed to me to be suitable material for satire, but I
suppose that in the end they were only looking after their members'
jobs. Ironic, though.

John M Hughes
West and Wales Web at http://westwales.co.uk

[percy]

Post by c***@aol.com
IIRC the NUR insisted that the replacement buses between Taunton and
Minehead should be staffed by NUR members, thus preserving some of
their members' jobs, and they therefore regarded any replacement rail
service as a threat to this.
At the time this semed to me to be suitable material for satire, but I
suppose that in the end they were only looking after their members'
jobs. Ironic, though.

All the more ironic because presumably if the WSR rail line had reopened as
a commuter line as originally proposed some of those NUR members would have
got jobs driving trains ..........

[David H Wild]

Post by c***@aol.com
IIRC the NUR insisted that the replacement buses between Taunton and
Minehead should be staffed by NUR members, thus preserving some of
their members' jobs, and they therefore regarded any replacement rail
service as a threat to this.

The NUR was the union that represented the workers on Western National,
among many other companies which had had railway ownership.
They probably had more bus workers than railway workers at the time.

[Terry Harper]

Post by c***@aol.com
IIRC the NUR insisted that the replacement buses between Taunton and
Minehead should be staffed by NUR members, thus preserving some of
their members' jobs, and they therefore regarded any replacement rail
service as a threat to this.

Some bus companies traditionally had the NUR as the union for their
drivers. It may have gone back to the days when the railway ran the
buses in that area. As long as there is no closed shop, the NUR had
the right to recruit the drivers if they could. What they couldn't do
is insist that the bus company recruit their members displaced from
the railway (or not, as the case may be).

[MikeT]

What on earth has this got to do with the Wensleydale Railway and the
problems they are having ??

[Stephen Hughes]

Post by MikeT
What on earth has this got to do with the Wensleydale Railway and the
problems they are having ??

It's called thread drift. Feel lucky you aren't on some newsgroups as
you'd have half the group accusing the W.R. of being responsible for a
range of major atrocities and the other half asserting that the
Americans won the war and could turn around the W.R. in a matter of days...

[MikeT]

Thanks for that, though you never know if the cash crisis deepens ..
then it might be upto the Americans to buy it out and save it for the
people of the dales. Maybe I should email Michael Glasier and see if
hes interested in another club thats about to go into red.

[JOHN WORSNOP]

Post by Tony Polson
The West Somerset Railway was originally intended to offer a
timetabled year-round service between Taunton and Minehead but I
believe that the NUR (now RMT) destroyed any chance of that through
restrictive practices.
What practices were these?

[Peter Masson]

Post by Tony Polson
The West Somerset Railway was originally intended to offer a
timetabled year-round service between Taunton and Minehead but I
believe that the NUR (now RMT) destroyed any chance of that through
restrictive practices.
What practices were these?

When the Minehead branch was originally closed, the alternative bus services
in the area were run by the Western National bus company. Because the bus
company had originally been started by the Great Western, members of the bus
company's staff were members of the NUR, and it was at their instigation
that the NUR refused co-operation with through running of the WSR into
Taunton station.

Peter

[Chris Tolley]

Post by Tony Polson
I believe the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway runs(/ran?) shoppers
trains specifically for locals.
The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways offer substantial discounts
to local people and their trains seem to be surprisingly well used by
local people.

"This is a local train, for local people. There's nothing for you here."
;-)

[n***@gmail.com]

I don't have the letter with me but you're not quoting the whole thing.

The problem they've got is that it's the massive amounts of money they
have to pay to NR/BTP/insurance over and above the normal running costs
of improving/running the infrastructure as well as all the rolling
stock...

The new share issue is for the platform/links at Northallerton etc...

I'm sure someone else will be able to quote the letter in full, I'll be
able to get the letter tonight and be able to post its wording here
tomorrow if no-one else has done in the mean time...

[MikeT]

So what you are saying is that people should keep parting with their
money to pay the running costs of the railway, so they can spend the
money they make buying old vans and old coaches.

Surely they have had to pay these costs over the last two years of
running, but they did not put out letters begging for money then. You
can't keep putting out share offers every time you want to spend more
than your making.

It all looks a bit strange to me, if the press reports are to be
believed and their magazine they send out is correct, they are doing
really well ... so why the need for more money.

[Martin Underwood]

Post by MikeT
So what you are saying is that people should keep parting with their
money to pay the running costs of the railway, so they can spend the
money they make buying old vans and old coaches.
Surely they have had to pay these costs over the last two years of
running, but they did not put out letters begging for money then. You
can't keep putting out share offers every time you want to spend more
than your making.
It all looks a bit strange to me, if the press reports are to be
believed and their magazine they send out is correct, they are doing
really well ... so why the need for more money.

Yes, this letter came as a bit of a bolt from the blue to me (a WRA member)
as well. They'd just started running more trains to Redmire and they'd
started running for a greater portion of the year... which suggests that
they've over-reached themselves a bit.

I hope they manage to get out of this little crisis because the line
deserves to do really well. Sadly at present is has serious flaws if it is
to attract non-tourist traffic:

- they need to run an earlier train in the morning and a later train in the
evening, even if this is at the expense of reducing the daytime frequency
slightly

- they desperately, DESPERATELY need to extend to Northallerton, even if
it's only to a temporary station on the road [*] just west of Castle Hills
junction for the time being; the number of locals who need to get from
Leyburn or Redmire to Bedale or Leeming Bar is probably fairly small,
especially when you could drive there far more quickly

- they need to increase the line-speed to reduce journey times to a level
that can compete with the car

- an extension west to at least Castle Bolton and preferably Aysgarth Falls
would serve far more tourists


But it's early days. They've made a very good start and attracted a lot of
publicity from outside the immediate Wensleydale area. If they can weather
this storm and provide a much better "spin" to what was effectively a
begging letter (they asked for a *gift* of money, not even for people to buy
shares) then I'm sure they'll go from strength to strength.



[*] Strangely, this road is not named either on the Multimap map or on my
printed streetmap of North Yorkshire.

[Tom Burton]

"MikeT" <***@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message news:***@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Today I saw a letter from the Wensleydale Railway that claims it needs
help.


SNIP

This looks like pretty serious stuff to me. Considering they have had
two share offers and according to the letter are going to re-launch
another, what are they spending all the money on.


Its Dam expensive....

When the C37LGs tractors were out to play it was more expensive for one
return than it is for a rover at many a preserved railway....

If they want a cash cow.... how about a Diesal Gala,

Works for many a cattle track...


Tom

[MikeT]

A Diesel Gala.. when you only have a single line ... that would be
interesting.

Would need a bit more variety than some 37's and 2 class 31's in
heritage green.

They may need to get more coaches in aswell, as I hear they only have
5. But they have 6 locos so maybe a coach a piece.

[1501]

Bit of a half baked idea really. They should have started from
Northallerton.

[Chippy]

Bit of a half baked idea really. They should have started from
Northallerton.

[Chippy]

Post by 1501
Bit of a half baked idea really. They should have started from
Northallerton.

Easier said than done, though. I doubt that they will ever get there,
and without that any claim to be a viable transport link is nonsense.

[Martin Underwood]

Post by Chippy

Post by 1501
Bit of a half baked idea really. They should have started from
Northallerton.

Easier said than done, though. I doubt that they will ever get there,
and without that any claim to be a viable transport link is nonsense.

I think they will do it. The track exists and is usable to the extent that
the MOD tank trains use it: and they must put a much heavier axle load on
the track than a DMU will. How heavy is a tank in relation to a diesel loco?
Heavier? Maybe they put more load on the track even than the loco that's
hauling them.

So the work that needs to be done is more by way of satisfying the
regulating/approving bodies that the line and level crossings (loads of them
over minor roads between Leeding Bar and Northallerton) are up to passenger
standard. Probably the largest single piece of work is construction of a
temporary station.

Having got a link to Northallerton, even if a shuttle bus is needed to cover
the last half mile into the town centre, they can realistically start
offering a to/from work and shopping service for the locals, as well as
feeding into the ECML services.

Extending west up the dale is a much bigger task. Talking to the woman who
was serving in the shop at Leyburn station, the priorities are:

- extending to a temporary station at Northallerton is the first priority
(obviously)
- then extending east from Garsdale to Hawes (to feed into the Settle and
Carlisle services)
- then extending west from Redmire to Aysgarth (to serve visitors to the
Falls)
- then filling in the big bit between Hawes and Redmire
- lowest priority is extending into a permanent station at Northallerton.

According to a talk given by the London branch of the WR, one proposal for
Northallerton, in conjunction with other TOCs, is to divert some of the
stopping services into new low-level platforms just west of the existing
station, to lessen the disruption that stopping services cause to non-stop
expresses on the ECML, and for the WR to use these platforms too. This would
involve taking a bit of the car park and maybe buying a bit of adjoining
land. Looking at a map, I can't work out how trains to/from the north of
Northallerton would get onto the low-level line that heads in one direction
off towards Yarm and the other direction back onto the ECML south of the
station, but which is freight only. Maybe the intention is to divert
Middlesborough trains over the freight line so it would only be trains to
Newcastle that would need to use the main platforms. But all this is VERY
pie-in-the-sky!

The trackbed just west of Redmire has been severely undermined by rabbits
(probably true all the way along!) and there are bridges needed over Apedale
Beck just west of Redmire and over the A684 a mile or so west of Hawes. I
don't think there are any other bridges that have been demolished - but I
could be wrong.

[MikeT]

Even if they do get to Northallerton, which, to coin your phrase, is
VERY pie-in-the-sky, they would still have to get all the loops working
and create a good link at the end into Northallerton - otherwise it
would still be a single train running up and down with services running
about every 2½ hours ... not exactly a community railway.

I couldn't see many locals using that as a means to get to work in the
mornings.

But all this aside, going back to the main point ... if they need
£100,000 now, when they are only running a single train up and down
four times a day over 18 miles of track, how much will they be asking
for to run more trains or to add more track to the existing line.

I would have thought that most of the shareholders would be under the
impression that there money was already going towards extentions to
Aysgarth and beyond.

[a***@yahoo.com]

The question is why are they running out of money - is it because
they no longer have a full time chief executive - and the railway is
being run by amatuers who have full time day jobs - none of them with
any experience in public transport - what happened to Scott Handley
did he mysteriously resign or was pushed out by the other directors who
wanted to turn the railway into a hobby heritage railway where playing
trains takes precedence over passenger needs especially those in a
wheelchair who steve dean said in relay was ok to ride in the gaurds
van and where are the disabled toilets - in a relay article steve
dean said they refused a modern air conditioned DMU and have purchased
a lot of rusty noisy junk instead

[MikeT]

This could account for some of it I suppose, but surely if there is no
Chief Executive and no one in charge ... when the money comes in, it
could just be wasted ... which was the original point.

If their TOP AND MOST IMMEDIATE PRIORITY IS TO INCREASE FOOD AND DRINK
SALES, are they going to rush out and buy 200 boxes of Mars Bars and a
few dozen trays of Coca-Cola.

If they could get it through the doors of the buffet coach, they could
always get one of those big fancy fridges that come free if you buy a
set amount of drink.

Alternativly they could open up a corner shop, that way they could sell
food and drink all day and make loads of money.

[a***@yahoo.com]

I feel sorry for you MarkT - you tried to open a serious debat on the
future of the wensleydale railway and your discussion has been swmped
by rail nuts babbling on about the wieght of army tanks and pipe dream
maps of northallerton - but this is the probloem the plc is
dominated bythe same sort of rail enthusiasts who have no interest in
passengers and just want to play trains with absolutley no concept of
dealing with real people in the real world with real money - and thats
why its going bust - and can someone tell me how a retired road
haulier knows anything about rail safety or does a couple of sundays a
year in a victorian signal box make you an expert

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by a***@yahoo.com
this is the probloem the plc is
dominated bythe same sort of rail enthusiasts who have no interest in
passengers and just want to play trains with absolutley no concept of
dealing with real people in the real world with real money - and thats
why its going bust

I have never been optimistic about this line with its holier
-than-thou 'We are not a preserved railway, we are
part of the National Rail Network' attitude, as I'm afraid
I said when it opened. It's simply never been clear to me
where the passengers were going to come from.

Nothing has happened since to prove me wrong. Their
website does them no favours either, in my opinion.

You seem to believe that the line could be made to
pay - what do _you_ think should be done?

Charlie

[MikeT]

I think the main problems started to happen in the last few months.

The wrphoto.co.uk website went down just after it had been completely
updated and was getting plenty visitors a month, it also showed the
railway in a very good way, the official web site is still showing
pictures of the snow, a lot of the links don't work, and the
performance information is well out of date ... whats going on .. have
they given up on it. It looks like someone else is doing it now as it
was hosted by the wrphoto pages, but now is on demon.

Then they started running overpriced, under advertised events, like the
loco hauled services, which got a good panning if you look in the
uk.railway group and the recent Thomas event, which is where they
attach a steam loco onto the regular DMU and think it fools people into
being different.

Before all these "lets see how much we can charge" events, things
seemed to follow a plan, but maybe if the comments about the CE not
being there are right, maybe thats the problem. I think if I had some
serious money invested in the PLC I'd be asking questions ... and
definately not sending them anymore money.

Even the BBC news website is talking about it now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/4076764.stm

I can't see how just sending a train to Northallerton is going to
improve things, when it will still be the same clapped out trains doing
the journey, and as was pointed out, the station would be a fair walk
from the town.

[a***@yahoo.com]

the answer is to get rid of the incompetant train spotters - WRA
AGM on Saturday is the chance to do that - the WRA committee
may well be able to run a campaign but they cant run a company

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by a***@yahoo.com
the answer is to get rid of the incompetant train spotters

And what then?

How are you going to attract customers?

Charlie

[percy]

Post by a***@yahoo.com
the answer is to get rid of the incompetant train spotters - WRA
AGM on Saturday is the chance to do that - the WRA committee
may well be able to run a campaign but they cant run a company

Well did anybody go to the Wensleydale AGM yesterday, and can they tell us
what was said about current cash problems and future plans etc?

[MikeT]

From what I heard, via someone who was there, they didn't answer any

questions about the cash crisis directly. They just kept saying that it
was a PLC matter and that this was a WRA meeting. Maybe they should
have thought about that before they put it out on WRA headed paper.

The other comments were along the lines of,
1. We are not out of money, but just need a backup incase we are in the
next few weeks.
2. The WRA shows healthy accounts. So why don't they get some money off
them?
3. They've already got a great deal of the £100,000 already handed in.

They didn't really mention anything else, and apparently the average
age of people at the meeting was retirement age or over, so they didn't
see anything wrong with the situation.

The next few weeks should be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Watch this space ...

[Andrew Robert Breen]

Post by Martin Underwood

Post by Chippy

Post by 1501
Bit of a half baked idea really. They should have started from
Northallerton.

Easier said than done, though. I doubt that they will ever get there,
and without that any claim to be a viable transport link is nonsense.

I think they will do it. The track exists and is usable to the extent that
the MOD tank trains use it: and they must put a much heavier axle load on
the track than a DMU will. How heavy is a tank in relation to a diesel loco?
Heavier? Maybe they put more load on the track even than the loco that's
hauling them.

Challenger 2s are about 65 tons, IiRC, but they're not moved by rail
(too wide - iIRC the last .ukian tank which was narrow enough to be
moved by rail without major surgery was the Churchill, and they
went out of service before 1960). What does get moved by rail
are scout vehicles (Sabre, Scimitar - these weigh in at about 8 tons),
light fighting vehicles (FV43x and their ilk - about 15 tons)
and armoured fighting vehicles (armed troop carriers - Warriors -
which weigh 24.5 tons).
Even a Warrior on a Warflat would be a lot lighter than any
main-line locomotive (the problem would be clearance - Warriors
aren't that tiny).

[Martin Underwood]

Post by Andrew Robert Breen

Post by Martin Underwood

Post by Chippy

Post by 1501
Bit of a half baked idea really. They should have started from
Northallerton.

Easier said than done, though. I doubt that they will ever get there,
and without that any claim to be a viable transport link is nonsense.

I think they will do it. The track exists and is usable to the extent that
the MOD tank trains use it: and they must put a much heavier axle load on
the track than a DMU will. How heavy is a tank in relation to a diesel loco?
Heavier? Maybe they put more load on the track even than the loco that's
hauling them.

Challenger 2s are about 65 tons, IiRC, but they're not moved by rail
(too wide - iIRC the last .ukian tank which was narrow enough to be
moved by rail without major surgery was the Churchill, and they
went out of service before 1960). What does get moved by rail
are scout vehicles (Sabre, Scimitar - these weigh in at about 8 tons),
light fighting vehicles (FV43x and their ilk - about 15 tons)
and armoured fighting vehicles (armed troop carriers - Warriors -
which weigh 24.5 tons).
Even a Warrior on a Warflat would be a lot lighter than any
main-line locomotive (the problem would be clearance - Warriors
aren't that tiny).

Oh. So are the so-called "tank trains" that go from (I think) Salisbury to
Redmire not actually carrying tanks? I've never seen any photos of the tanks
(or other vehicles) arriving at Redmire: maybe the MOD aren't too keen on
photography! Apparently there is a news report in existence from when the
MOD were publicising one of the first tank deliveries to Redmire, in which a
tank falls off the railway truck and ends up on its side! I've never seen it
on Dennis Norden's programme.


Anyway, if the track can withstand tank trains and their locos, and the
bright blue loco that I saw the other month at the bridge over the road just
west of Castle Hills junction, then it must be in reasonably good condition
over the full length. So I wonder what stages still need to be completed
before trains can run to a temporary station at Northallerton? Given a
suitable site alongside the track, maybe one side or the other of where it
crosses Springwell Lane, what is involved in erecting a single
concrete-section platform?

[Chippy]

Post by Martin Underwood
So I wonder what stages still need to be completed
before trains can run to a temporary station at Northallerton?

Running to a temporary station would be ridiculous. If the line can
get into a joint station, fair enough (personally, I doubt that it ever
will), but just getting somewhere within the boundaries of
Northallerton won't do any good.

Post by Martin Underwood
Given a
suitable site alongside the track, maybe one side or the other of where it
crosses Springwell Lane, what is involved in erecting a single
concrete-section platform?

Finding a sufficient number of gullible people who are prepared to
throw good money after bad.

[Martin Underwood]

Post by Chippy

Post by Martin Underwood
So I wonder what stages still need to be completed
before trains can run to a temporary station at Northallerton?

Running to a temporary station would be ridiculous. If the line can
get into a joint station, fair enough (personally, I doubt that it ever
will), but just getting somewhere within the boundaries of
Northallerton won't do any good.

The problem with the route into Northallerton at present is that the track
layout makes it very awkward because there's only a north-facing curve from
the WR to the ECML and there's a headshunt involved. I've sketched the
layout as far as I can determine it from walking across the footpath shown.
I've omitted the branch to Yarm so as to keep things simple.

Loading Image... (100 KB)

I'm not sure where the bay platform at Northallerton used to be. Probably on
the west (down) side. But that land is now occupied by the station car park.

Because of the headshunt, any train that wanted to get from the WR to
Northallerton station would need to either be a double-ended DMU or else
have a loco at each end. It would block the down line of the ECML while it
was joining it and for as long as it took to get to the station, pick up
passengers and go back to the headshunt. Consequently it would take up paths
that could otherwise go to ECML express or stopping services.

If the disused west-to-south curve could be reinstated and a separate bay
platform constructed, that would ease things a lot.



I think the possible low-level platforms that were mentioned at the London
branch meeting would be something like:

Loading Image... (87 KB)

But I should emphasise that this is pure speculation on my part - especially
the links that I've drawn in blue between the ECML and the low-level line to
Yarm! Maybe the proposal was to have no link but to divert Transpennine
trains from Middlesborough over the Yarm route, thereby reducing the number
of trains that would need to stop at Northallerton high-level platforms to
just the trains to/from Newcastle.

[alicante]

Post by Chippy

Post by Martin Underwood
So I wonder what stages still need to be completed
before trains can run to a temporary station at Northallerton?

Running to a temporary station would be ridiculous. If the line can
get into a joint station, fair enough (personally, I doubt that it ever
will), but just getting somewhere within the boundaries of
Northallerton won't do any good.

Yes to get to Northallerton ECM L station in some way is good for
interchange rail passneger traffic, but even then you are well short of
Northallerton town centre and shops, which no doubt would be the intended
destination of many local passengers from the dale. Whereas the buses go
right to the town and the shops ....

[Martin Underwood]

Post by alicante

Post by Chippy

Post by Martin Underwood
So I wonder what stages still need to be completed
before trains can run to a temporary station at Northallerton?

Running to a temporary station would be ridiculous. If the line can
get into a joint station, fair enough (personally, I doubt that it ever
will), but just getting somewhere within the boundaries of
Northallerton won't do any good.

Yes to get to Northallerton ECM L station in some way is good for
interchange rail passneger traffic, but even then you are well short of
Northallerton town centre and shops, which no doubt would be the intended
destination of many local passengers from the dale. Whereas the buses go
right to the town and the shops ....

Thinking laterally (very!) maybe what they should do then is link with the
LL line towards Yarm and build a station at the level crossing with the High
Street near the junction with Yafforth Road ;-) At least that's closer to
the shops than the ECML station. Buggers-up any message about interchange
with the ECML though!

[Andrew Robert Breen]

Post by Martin Underwood

Post by Andrew Robert Breen

Post by Martin Underwood
I think they will do it. The track exists and is usable to the extent that
the MOD tank trains use it: and they must put a much heavier axle load on
the track than a DMU will. How heavy is a tank in relation to a diesel loco?

Challenger 2s are about 65 tons, IiRC, but they're not moved by rail
(too wide - iIRC the last .ukian tank which was narrow enough to be
moved by rail without major surgery was the Churchill, and they
went out of service before 1960). What does get moved by rail
are scout vehicles (Sabre, Scimitar - these weigh in at about 8 tons),
light fighting vehicles (FV43x and their ilk - about 15 tons)
and armoured fighting vehicles (armed troop carriers - Warriors -
which weigh 24.5 tons).

Oh. So are the so-called "tank trains" that go from (I think) Salisbury to
Redmire not actually carrying tanks? I've never seen any photos of the tanks
(or other vehicles) arriving at Redmire: maybe the MOD aren't too keen on
photography! Apparently there is a news report in existence from when the
MOD were publicising one of the first tank deliveries to Redmire, in which a
tank falls off the railway truck and ends up on its side! I've never seen it
on Dennis Norden's programme.

My guess would be that they're carrying Warriors, FV432s or maybe Scimitars.
All of these are tracked, but they're not tanks (the Warrior is the only
one of them to have any armour to speak of). However, they don't look
unlike tanks:

Warrior: Loading Image...
FV 432: Loading Image...
Sabre: Loading Image...

compare and contrast with the real heavy metal, though:

Challenger 2: Loading Image...

I've only ever heard of Challengers being moved on road transporters in .uk

[superted]

Post by Andrew Robert Breen
My guess would be that they're carrying Warriors, FV432s or maybe Scimitars.
All of these are tracked, but they're not tanks (the Warrior is the only
one of them to have any armour to speak of). However, they don't look
Warrior: http://www.army.mod.uk/img/blackwatch/join/warriorAFV.jpg
FV 432: http://www.arm-soft.com/Images/FV432/1305%20FV432%20right%20front.jpg
Sabre: http://www.army.mod.uk/img/equipment/av/images/av_sab.jpg
Challenger 2: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Challenger2_Pics/Challenger2.jpg
I've only ever heard of Challengers being moved on road transporters in .uk

From pictures that i have seen of fighting vehicles at Redmire
Warrior and FV432 fit the bill.
Having been in a car behind a couple of road transporters and
challenger tanks they ain't small in girth. But it was interesting to
see at least 3 warriors crammed onto a road transporter on the M18 if
memory serves me
correct.
--

[Peter Beale]

Post by Martin Underwood
Oh. So are the so-called "tank trains" that go from (I think)
Salisbury to Redmire not actually carrying tanks?

Probably from Ludgershall. I think (I used to live near there) they
are APCs (Armoured Personnel Carriers). They look pretty big, until
you see a *real* tank!

[PRAR]

DERWENT Re: Why are the Wensleydale Railway running out of cash ?

Post by MikeT
A Diesel Gala.. when you only have a single line ... that would be
interesting.

Mid Norfolk manage one.

Post by MikeT
Would need a bit more variety than some 37's and 2 class 31's in
heritage green.

A few hired in locos would drag in the NEDs. These days it seems all
you need is green shed and the crowds come flocking.


PRAR