Discussion:
Elizabeth Line stealth public launch
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2022-01-20 16:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Well, it turns out the shiny new purple line had a truly stealthy public
launch on 29 November last year, of the Abbey Wood to Paddington section:

<https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/civils/crossrail-high-risk-security-breach-as-first-customer-rides-train-20-01-2022/>
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2022-01-20 16:40:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:26:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Well, it turns out the shiny new purple line had a truly stealthy public
<https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/civils/crossrail-high-risk-security-breach-
as-first-customer-rides-train-20-01-2022/>
Its about time they opened up some of the central section, they've been
testing with trains for well over a year now and clearly its all working
even if some of the stations arn't ready.
Recliner
2022-01-20 16:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:26:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Well, it turns out the shiny new purple line had a truly stealthy public
<https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/civils/crossrail-high-risk-security-breach-
as-first-customer-rides-train-20-01-2022/>
Its about time they opened up some of the central section, they've been
testing with trains for well over a year now and clearly its all working
even if some of the stations arn't ready.
They still have to test an intensive service, and various simulated
emergencies requiring evacuations. But the public opening of that section
could be as early as March, if the tests go to plan.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-20 23:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Well, it turns out the shiny new purple line had a truly stealthy public
<https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/civils/crossrail-high-risk-security-breach-as-first-customer-rides-train-20-01-2022/>
I remember before they opened ELL that they would allow individual
passers by to view the stations if they asked.

I would ask if they planned to do that at some of the Crossrail
stations, but this might be difficult as almost all the new ones are in
central London.

I did visit Canary Wharf station in 2017 on its open day, however.

Anyway, let me be certain that I understand the tentative timeline for
openings and connections.

March 2022 -- Opening of the core between Liverpool Street and Paddington.

2023 -- Connection of the western and eastern branches of with the core
and opening of Whitechapel station.

I am not clear, however, when the branch line to Abbey Wood is due to open.
Recliner
2022-01-21 01:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Well, it turns out the shiny new purple line had a truly stealthy public
<https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/civils/crossrail-high-risk-security-breach-as-first-customer-rides-train-20-01-2022/>
I remember before they opened ELL that they would allow individual
passers by to view the stations if they asked.
I would ask if they planned to do that at some of the Crossrail
stations, but this might be difficult as almost all the new ones are in
central London.
I did visit Canary Wharf station in 2017 on its open day, however.
Anyway, let me be certain that I understand the tentative timeline for
openings and connections.
March 2022 -- Opening of the core between Liverpool Street and Paddington.
2023 -- Connection of the western and eastern branches of with the core
and opening of Whitechapel station.
I am not clear, however, when the branch line to Abbey Wood is due to open.
The first section to open will be Abbey Wood to Paddington, possibly within
two months. Bond St station probably won't open till later, but all the
others should open, though they may not all be complete. I think the other
eastern link to Shenfield will open a few months later, with through
running between the eastern and western sections next year.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-21 02:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Well, it turns out the shiny new purple line had a truly stealthy public
<https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/civils/crossrail-high-risk-security-breach-as-first-customer-rides-train-20-01-2022/>
I remember before they opened ELL that they would allow individual
passers by to view the stations if they asked.
I would ask if they planned to do that at some of the Crossrail
stations, but this might be difficult as almost all the new ones are in
central London.
I did visit Canary Wharf station in 2017 on its open day, however.
Anyway, let me be certain that I understand the tentative timeline for
openings and connections.
March 2022 -- Opening of the core between Liverpool Street and Paddington.
2023 -- Connection of the western and eastern branches of with the core
and opening of Whitechapel station.
I am not clear, however, when the branch line to Abbey Wood is due to open.
The first section to open will be Abbey Wood to Paddington, possibly within
two months. Bond St station probably won't open till later, but all the
others should open, though they may not all be complete. I think the other
eastern link to Shenfield will open a few months later, with through
running between the eastern and western sections next year.
Thanks.
Recliner
2022-01-25 16:30:46 UTC
Permalink
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-25 18:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
Recliner
2022-01-25 21:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2022-01-26 09:58:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.

One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
Recliner
2022-01-26 10:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-26 10:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the und erground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
Does that mean National Rail tickets with a Maltese cross or Travelcards
will not be valid?
Roland Perry
2022-01-26 11:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR.
Perhaps even more like Thameslink. Or Emirates Air.Line (is that where
you go to pump the tyres on your 777?)
Post by Recliner
At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of them.
I do love it when they have roundels like:
<Loading Image...> I picked one with
graffiti deliberately.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2022-01-26 12:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR.
Perhaps even more like Thameslink.
No, not at all like Thameslink.
Post by Roland Perry
Or Emirates Air.Line (is that where
you go to pump the tyres on your 777?)
That £36m sponsorship deal is coming to an end. It looks like the new sponsor (if TfL can find one) will be able to
completely revamp it.

I wonder whose brand will soon adorn it (and Tube maps)? Apparently it can't be in "categories including tobacco, arms
and food/drink that promotes foodstuffs containing high fat, salt and sugar". So, not the Galaxy line then!

<https://www.thedrum.com/news/2021/12/07/tfl-sponsorship-boss-talks-up-cable-car-potential-36m-emirates-deal-ends>
Roland Perry
2022-01-26 12:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR.
Perhaps even more like Thameslink.
No, not at all like Thameslink.
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2022-01-26 16:12:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL sprawls all
over the Southern network, with many
You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
different to thameslink?
Recliner
2022-01-26 16:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL sprawls all
over the Southern network, with many
You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
different to thameslink?
Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
<Loading Image...>
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2022-01-26 16:28:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:26:16 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL sprawls
all
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
over the Southern network, with many
You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
different to thameslink?
Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
<http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%20Map%2
0-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
So? How does that disprove my point? Most of crossrail runs on pre-existing
lines , its a collection of routes, not a system.
Robin
2022-01-26 18:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:26:16 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL sprawls
all
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
over the Southern network, with many
You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
different to thameslink?
Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
<http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%20Map%2
0-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
So? How does that disprove my point? Most of crossrail runs on pre-existing
lines , its a collection of routes, not a system.
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Recliner
2022-01-26 21:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:26:16 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL sprawls
all
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
over the Southern network, with many
You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
different to thameslink?
Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
<http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%20Map%2
0-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
So? How does that disprove my point? Most of crossrail runs on pre-existing
lines , its a collection of routes, not a system.
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2022-01-27 10:03:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.

Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
Roland Perry
2022-01-27 10:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.
Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
--
Roland Perry
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-27 10:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.
Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
Yes.

The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
proportion of users.

As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they can
use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.

My question is. Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be valid on
the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY

And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the spring.
Roland Perry
2022-01-27 10:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
probably thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.
Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
Yes.
The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
proportion of users.
As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they can
use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.
My question is. Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be valid
on the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY
And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the spring.
If that routing is also "permitted" in a general sense (and I have no
reason to think it wouldn't be, although there have been a few changes
in recent years to routing points in East London, but perhaps only
applying to doing say Reading to Manchester via Liverpool St, Ely,
Peterborough, Nottingham and Sheffield) then it'd be a heavy rail trip
end-to-end, and thus no reason to invoke such concepts as for example
Maltese Cross.
--
Roland Perry
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-27 11:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
probably  thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.
Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
 Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
Yes.
The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
isn't.  This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
proportion of users.
As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they
can use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.
My question is.  Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be valid
on the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY
And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the spring.
If that routing is also "permitted" in a general sense (and I have no
reason to think it wouldn't be, although there have been a few changes
in recent years to routing points in East London, but perhaps only
applying to doing say Reading to Manchester via Liverpool St, Ely,
Peterborough, Nottingham and Sheffield) then it'd be a heavy rail trip
end-to-end, and thus no reason to invoke such concepts as for example
Maltese Cross.
My ticket would also be valid via any former Southern Region terminal as
well.

That answer is a prime example why some consider simplifying the fare
structure in Great Britain is necessary.

BTW. I've not travelled the complete Liverpool Street to Cambridge
route since the early 70s so I'm planning to travel that way in one
direction. Via Birmingham and Peterborough is also a permitted route
but the three hour gaps in the XC timetable at both ends make that route
unviable.
Roland Perry
2022-01-27 12:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
probably  thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly
not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.
Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of
arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
 Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already
have Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
Yes.
The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
isn't.  This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
proportion of users.
As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they
can use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.
My question is.  Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be
valid on the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY
And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the spring.
If that routing is also "permitted" in a general sense (and I have
no reason to think it wouldn't be, although there have been a few
changes in recent years to routing points in East London, but perhaps
only applying to doing say Reading to Manchester via Liverpool St,
Ely, Peterborough, Nottingham and Sheffield) then it'd be a heavy
rail trip end-to-end, and thus no reason to invoke such concepts as
for example Maltese Cross.
My ticket would also be valid via any former Southern Region terminal
as well.
That answer is a prime example why some consider simplifying the fare
structure in Great Britain is necessary.
Of course one simplification would be every ticket having just one
routing burnt into it.
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
BTW. I've not travelled the complete Liverpool Street to Cambridge
route since the early 70s so I'm planning to travel that way in one
direction.
It's not that exciting. Unless you count going via the airport on a
ticket that says "Not Stansted Airport", which is in fact allowed
because the excess would be zero!!!
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Via Birmingham and Peterborough is also a permitted route but the three
hour gaps in the XC timetable at both ends make that route unviable.
What time of day, traditionally the service would be hourly.
--
Roland Perry
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-27 12:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
better.  We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
probably  thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly
not  happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.
Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of
arse  kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
 Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already
have  Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
Yes.
The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
isn't.  This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
proportion of users.
As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they
can use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.
My question is.  Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be
valid  on the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY
And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the spring.
 If that routing is also "permitted" in a general sense (and I have
no  reason to think it wouldn't be, although there have been a few
changes  in recent years to routing points in East London, but
perhaps only  applying to doing say Reading to Manchester via
Liverpool St, Ely,  Peterborough, Nottingham and Sheffield) then it'd
be a heavy rail trip  end-to-end, and thus no reason to invoke such
concepts as for example  Maltese Cross.
My ticket would also be valid via any former Southern Region terminal
as well.
That answer is a prime example why some consider simplifying the fare
structure in Great Britain is necessary.
Of course one simplification would be every ticket having just one
routing burnt into it.
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
BTW.  I've not travelled the complete Liverpool Street to Cambridge
route since the early 70s so I'm planning to travel that way in one
direction.
It's not that exciting. Unless you count going via the airport on a
ticket that says "Not Stansted Airport", which is in fact allowed
because the excess would be zero!!!
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Via Birmingham and Peterborough is also a permitted route but the
three hour gaps in the XC timetable at both ends make that route
unviable.
What time of day, traditionally the service would be hourly.
I will need to use the first service of the day outbound but that is the
first of the cancellations from Birmingham to Ely. The inbound
cancellations from Birmingham to Cardiff are during the afternoon when I
would want to return although I'm happy to travel via London on the return.
Graeme Wall
2022-01-27 13:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.
Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
Could have been worse, there was a vociferous campaign to have it named
the Princess Diana Line, after they failed to get Heathrow renamed after
her.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Nobody
2022-01-27 18:43:42 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.
Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.
Could have been worse, there was a vociferous campaign to have it named
the Princess Diana Line, after they failed to get Heathrow renamed after
her.
"Princess" Diana?

Lady Diana, Princess of Wales... she wuz never a princess in her own
right.
NY
2022-01-27 12:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it as
Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's like the
Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be officially
called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes, I know that's
the name of the hour bell).

I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given that
it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
Roland Perry
2022-01-27 13:36:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes,
I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?

Paper ones bought from tube station TVM, Granddad, or something else.
--
Roland Perry
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-27 13:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
Post by Roland Perry
Paper ones bought from tube station TVM, Granddad, or something else.
Roland Perry
2022-01-27 14:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to
it as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line.
It's like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used
to be officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big
Ben (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
It would help if there was at least one candidate for us to discuss.

Apart from National Rail barcode tickets, which we know TfL barriers
can't cope with at all, so no change there then.
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Paper ones bought from tube station TVM, Granddad, or something else.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2022-01-27 14:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
You might be interested in this discussion:
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.216352/>
Roland Perry
2022-01-27 14:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.216352/>
The thing that everyone seems to have tuned out is that one of the main
reasons for Crossrail is as a "Central Line Relief", so why would a fare
from Romford to Bond Street on a through train on the Elizabeth Line, be
any different to changing at Liverpool St to the Central Line?

Unless they want an "EL premium", like the extra fares for many routes
to Stratford via StP and HS1.

One major operational issue is that pax using HS1 need to navigate a
gateline to validate the premium fare, but EL pax are probably already
on the train.
--
Roland Perry
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-27 17:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.216352/>
Thanks.

In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Roland Perry
2022-01-27 17:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
--
Roland Perry
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-27 18:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state.  As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary.  No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Since we've moved on to ticketing I suspect the answer is "yes".
Tweed
2022-01-27 18:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
everything?
Roland Perry
2022-01-27 18:39:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system.
Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2022-01-27 22:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system.
Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
sydtem superseded it.
Charles Ellson
2022-01-28 01:22:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:04:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system.
Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
sydtem superseded it.
No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
a difference.

Peak fares
(using
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder)

Baker Street to Harrow - morning and evening
Harrow to Baker Street - morning

Euston to Harrow and Wealdstone - evening
HRW to Euston - morning

Waterloo to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Waterloo - morning

Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction - morning and evening
Recliner
2022-01-28 01:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:04:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system.
Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
sydtem superseded it.
No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
a difference.
Peak fares
(using
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder)
Baker Street to Harrow - morning and evening
Harrow to Baker Street - morning
Euston to Harrow and Wealdstone - evening
HRW to Euston - morning
Waterloo to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Waterloo - morning
Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction - morning and evening
Interesting, I thought those had all gone.
Charles Ellson
2022-01-28 02:50:59 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 01:42:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:04:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name ? Crossrail was much
better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn?t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system.
Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
sydtem superseded it.
No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
a difference.
Peak fares
(using
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder)
Baker Street to Harrow - morning and evening
Harrow to Baker Street - morning
Euston to Harrow and Wealdstone - evening
HRW to Euston - morning
Waterloo to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Waterloo - morning
Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction - morning and evening
Interesting, I thought those had all gone.
You can also have fun with routes, e.g.
Clapham Junction to Oxford Circus/Zone 1

3-00/2-50 via
Willesden Junction + Bakerloo Line
Shepherds Bush (OSI) + Central Line
Balham (OSI) + Northern Line
(i.e. not changing NR/LU at a London Terminal)

4-80/4-20 via London Terminals

The pretty route[TM] (i.e. the cheap one) in that case is not
inevitably significantly longer in time, in some cases possibly
quicker.
Certes
2022-01-28 12:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 01:42:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:04:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
sydtem superseded it.
No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
a difference.
Peak fares
(using
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder)
Baker Street to Harrow - morning and evening
Harrow to Baker Street - morning
Euston to Harrow and Wealdstone - evening
HRW to Euston - morning
That may be because trains into Euston are full in mornings only, and
trains out fill in evenings only, rather than a NR/TfL distinction.
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
Waterloo to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Waterloo - morning
Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction - morning and evening
Interesting, I thought those had all gone.
You can also have fun with routes, e.g.
Clapham Junction to Oxford Circus/Zone 1
3-00/2-50 via
Willesden Junction + Bakerloo Line
Shepherds Bush (OSI) + Central Line
Balham (OSI) + Northern Line
(i.e. not changing NR/LU at a London Terminal)
I never thought of Balham as a gateway to the North.
Post by Charles Ellson
4-80/4-20 via London Terminals
The pretty route[TM] (i.e. the cheap one) in that case is not
inevitably significantly longer in time, in some cases possibly
quicker.
Roland Perry
2022-01-28 06:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system.
Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
sydtem superseded it.
No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
a difference.
See also the infamous Mayoral promise to freeze fares for London
commuters, which turned out not to include some tickets involving
a leg on NR.

Of course, not everyone has a journey where there's a direct
substitution available (such as Vauxhall to Waterloo).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2022-01-28 10:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system.
Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
sydtem superseded it.
No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
a difference.
See also the infamous Mayoral promise to freeze fares for London
commuters, which turned out not to include some tickets involving
a leg on NR.
Did he not always qualify that he would be freezing TfL fares?
Post by Roland Perry
Of course, not everyone has a journey where there's a direct
substitution available (such as Vauxhall to Waterloo).
Certes
2022-01-27 19:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
everything?
There's bound to be one outlier that doesn't have edge cases...
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-27 19:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
everything?
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
Tweed
2022-01-27 19:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
everything?
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
from one NR terminus to another?
Roland Perry
2022-01-28 06:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
from one NR terminus to another?
The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
Liverpool St.
--
Roland Perry
Tweed
2022-01-28 08:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
from one NR terminus to another?
The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
Liverpool St.
I was thinking more in the general case than that specific journey. Unless
EL is separately gated from shared underground stations I can’t see how
anyone could control how you get from one NR terminus to another.
Recliner
2022-01-28 10:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
from one NR terminus to another?
The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
Liverpool St.
There will be gate lines between them at Liverpool St.
Bob
2022-01-27 19:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
everything?
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
All of the indications published so far indicate that there should be
no problem doing so. In principle, the ticketing is integrated with
the NR system, so it may be that the validity of a ticket between EG
Ipswich and Swindon would be valid on it in its own right (eg in the
event that the current funding issues with TfL result in the abolition
of the maltese cross system).

Robin
Roland Perry
2022-01-28 06:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
everything?
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
Why do you need any Maltese Cross facility anyway, just change at
Reading and stay on that train all the way to Liverpool St. (Assuming
there are in fact any trains which are doing that by then).
--
Roland Perry
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-28 10:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
(yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state.  As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
16352/>
Thanks.
In summary.  No one has the slightest idea.
Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
 Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
system, where
that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
everything?
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on
Crossrail but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
Why do you need any Maltese Cross facility anyway, just change at
Reading and stay on that train all the way to Liverpool St. (Assuming
there are in fact any trains which are doing that by then).
Presumably I would still need the Maltese Cross at Liverpool Street? If
Cross Country Trains get their rest day working agreement signed in time
I'm more likely to travel east bound.
Mike Humphrey
2022-01-28 08:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
From what's been said, the maltese cross is irrelevant - that allows you
to use the Underground. As it's an all-NR journey, you need to consult
the routing guide - which probably hasn't been updated to show the new
line yet. But if it's a sensible route to use it should be included.

Mike
Bob
2022-01-27 14:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes,
I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
Who has been unwilling to state? TfL have certainly stated that the
ticketing and fares structure will be fully integrated with the rest of
the TfL services (ie Underground)

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line


Robin
NY
2022-01-27 14:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
Who has been unwilling to state? TfL have certainly stated that the
ticketing and fares structure will be fully integrated with the rest of
the TfL services (ie Underground)
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line
Sounds good, but I'll believe it when I see it. I'd like to see any NR
ticket that includes cross-London travel to allow Liz-Line trains to be used
as an alternative to LT and NR trains by any reasonable route. And for Liz
Line trains to be included in the all-zones one-day travel card (for as long
as that lasts). But I bet there are restrictions.
Bob
2022-01-27 15:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Bob
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Roland Perry
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
Who has been unwilling to state? TfL have certainly stated that the
ticketing and fares structure will be fully integrated with the rest of
the TfL services (ie Underground)
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line
Sounds good, but I'll believe it when I see it. I'd like to see any NR
ticket that includes cross-London travel to allow Liz-Line trains to be
used as an alternative to LT and NR trains by any reasonable route. And
for Liz Line trains to be included in the all-zones one-day travel card
(for as long as that lasts). But I bet there are restrictions.
Why wouldn't it be? All of the other rail networks administered by TfL
(Underground, Overground, DLR, Trams) are integrated into the general
ticketing scheme (Trams being treated as buses rather than trains for
ticketing purposes), why would this line suddenly not be? Moreover,
how would it not be, given the extent to which the stations are
integrated with the Underground stations tha they meet, with
behind-the-ticket-barrier passages linking the various Crossrail and
Underground platforms. The whole system has been designed from the
ground up (or should that be down) to be fully integrated.

Robin
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-27 17:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to
it as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line.
It's like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used
to be officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big
Ben (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
What tickets might not be valid?
That's what no one appears to be willing to state.  As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
Who has been unwilling to state?  TfL have certainly stated that the
ticketing and fares structure will be fully integrated with the rest of
the TfL services (ie Underground)
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line
That's dated before the covid crisis so may well be out of date
following the government taking control of TfL finances.
Bob
2022-01-27 14:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.
I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes,
I know that's the name of the hour bell).
I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
Tickets will be valid. TfL have made it very clear that, aside from
the special fares for Hayes and Harlington-Heathrow that correspond to
the premium previously charged for Heathrow Connect, Crossrail will be
fully integrated into the rest of the TfL ticketing system, including
Oyster/contactless. See
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line


Robin
Roland Perry
2022-01-26 16:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL
sprawls all over the Southern network, with many
You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
different to thameslink?
Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
<http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%
20Map%20-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
It's grown a lot recently. For a long time it was just Bedford to
Brighton, plus the Sutton Loop.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2022-01-26 17:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL
sprawls all over the Southern network, with many
You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
different to thameslink?
Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
<http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%
20Map%20-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
It's grown a lot recently. For a long time it was just Bedford to
Brighton, plus the Sutton Loop.
Yup. That's the main reason the franchises were merged into GTR.
Roland Perry
2022-01-26 17:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:38:48 +0000, Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL
sprawls all over the Southern network, with many
You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
different to thameslink?
Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
<http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%
20Map%20-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
It's grown a lot recently. For a long time it was just Bedford to
Brighton, plus the Sutton Loop.
Yup. That's the main reason the franchises were merged into GTR.
They were merged because Thameslink had lots of other routes added in,
primarily from the old Great Northern area by the new tunnels north of
St Pancras, and to balance those re-assigning routes south of the river.

During the transition it was felt better to have the same organisation
running Thameslink as the sacrificial routes north and south of the
river. Although in retrospect many people think it was a
franchise-too-big.

It's going to be interesting if/when the Fat Controller gets to be in
charge of an ever bigger (and presumably therefore even less manageable)
network.

Exemplars of TOC success tend to be the smaller ones, that also don't
share metals with numerous others, like C2C and Chiltern.
--
Roland Perry
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-26 15:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Recliner
2022-01-26 16:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Tweed
2022-01-26 19:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
Recliner
2022-01-26 21:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
Jeremy Double
2022-01-26 22:17:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
No, S-Bahn just means urban/suburban railway network. AFAIK, only in
Berlin and Hamburg are the S-Bahnen 3rd rail.

In Munich the S-Bahn is operated by standard class 423 AC overhead EMUs.
And standard suburban AC EMUs of various classes (classes 420, 422, 430
etc, as well as the 423) are used on most of the assorted S-Bahnen around
the country. At one time, parts of the Rhine-Ruhr S-Bahn were operated by
loco-hauled push-pull sets, initially using DB class 111 electric locos and
later using ex-DR class 143s. And the Dresden S-Bahn is operated using
double-deck push-pull sets operated by class 143 or 146 locos.
--
Jeremy Double
Recliner
2022-01-26 22:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
No, S-Bahn just means urban/suburban railway network. AFAIK, only in
Berlin and Hamburg are the S-Bahnen 3rd rail.
In Munich the S-Bahn is operated by standard class 423 AC overhead EMUs.
And standard suburban AC EMUs of various classes (classes 420, 422, 430
etc, as well as the 423) are used on most of the assorted S-Bahnen around
the country. At one time, parts of the Rhine-Ruhr S-Bahn were operated by
loco-hauled push-pull sets, initially using DB class 111 electric locos and
later using ex-DR class 143s. And the Dresden S-Bahn is operated using
double-deck push-pull sets operated by class 143 or 146 locos.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of those.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2022-01-27 05:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Sam Wilson
2022-01-27 11:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Rolf Mantel
2022-01-27 12:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>
S-Bahn in the past stood for fast (compared to underground), frequent
suburban services with more stops than main line trains, optimized for
fast passenger entry/exit rather than for comfort; a tunnel section in
the City core is expected but not necessary.
In Hamburg and Berlin, S-Bahn had dedicated tracks due to third-rail
electrification (Hamburg has a few shared sections).
In Frankfurt, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, S-Bahn had dedicated 96cm
platforms to enable 'no steps inside' with 1970's technology
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_420>

Since the 1990's, 'S-Bahn' became a general brand for metropolitain
suburban services, some (Ruhrgebiet) using locomotives and normal local
carriages instead of EMUs, some only offering hourly rather than
frequent services on the lines, some (Rhein-Neckar) not providing any
dedicated tracks or platforms.
Since then, even Karlsruhe (not even a dedicated 'metropolitain area')
put their long-distance 'tram-trains' under the S-Bahn brand.

Rolf
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-27 15:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>
S-Bahn in the past stood for fast (compared to underground), frequent
suburban services with more stops than main line trains, optimized for
fast passenger entry/exit rather than for comfort; a tunnel section in
the City core is expected but not necessary.
In Hamburg and Berlin, S-Bahn had dedicated tracks due to third-rail
electrification (Hamburg has a few shared sections).
In Frankfurt, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, S-Bahn had dedicated 96cm
platforms to enable 'no steps inside' with 1970's technology
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_420>
Since the 1990's, 'S-Bahn' became a general brand for metropolitain
suburban services, some (Ruhrgebiet) using locomotives and normal local
carriages instead of EMUs, some only offering hourly rather than
frequent services on the lines, some (Rhein-Neckar) not providing any
dedicated tracks or platforms.
Since then, even Karlsruhe (not even a dedicated 'metropolitain area')
put their long-distance 'tram-trains' under the S-Bahn brand.
Rolf
Commuter rail, you mean?

I've always seen a difference between S-Bahn and commuter rail.
Rolf Mantel
2022-01-27 17:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>
S-Bahn in the past stood for fast (compared to underground), frequent
suburban services with more stops than main line trains, optimized for
fast passenger entry/exit rather than for comfort; a tunnel section in
the City core is expected but not necessary.
In Hamburg and Berlin, S-Bahn had dedicated tracks due to third-rail
electrification (Hamburg has a few shared sections).
In Frankfurt, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, S-Bahn had dedicated 96cm
platforms to enable 'no steps inside' with 1970's technology
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_420>
Since the 1990's, 'S-Bahn' became a general brand for metropolitain
suburban services, some (Ruhrgebiet) using locomotives and normal
local carriages instead of EMUs, some only offering hourly rather than
frequent services on the lines, some (Rhein-Neckar) not providing any
dedicated tracks or platforms.
Since then, even Karlsruhe (not even a dedicated 'metropolitain area')
put their long-distance 'tram-trains' under the S-Bahn brand.
Rolf
Commuter rail, you mean?
I've always seen a difference between S-Bahn and commuter rail.
S-Bahn is definitely about getting into the 'City' (and home from the
theater after the show), typically with an all-day fixed time table and
it is definitely a network of various lines rather than individual
commuter lines, more Thameslink than London Overground.
Commuter rail hass good peak hour service and crappy evening and weekend
service.

I'd compare 'S-Bahn' mostly to 'Metro' systems.

Rolf
Jeremy Double
2022-01-27 19:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>
S-Bahn in the past stood for fast (compared to underground), frequent
suburban services with more stops than main line trains, optimized for
fast passenger entry/exit rather than for comfort; a tunnel section in
the City core is expected but not necessary.
In Hamburg and Berlin, S-Bahn had dedicated tracks due to third-rail
electrification (Hamburg has a few shared sections).
In Frankfurt, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, S-Bahn had dedicated 96cm
platforms to enable 'no steps inside' with 1970's technology
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_420>
Since the 1990's, 'S-Bahn' became a general brand for metropolitain
suburban services, some (Ruhrgebiet) using locomotives and normal local
carriages instead of EMUs, some only offering hourly rather than
frequent services on the lines, some (Rhein-Neckar) not providing any
dedicated tracks or platforms.
Since then, even Karlsruhe (not even a dedicated 'metropolitain area')
put their long-distance 'tram-trains' under the S-Bahn brand.
Rolf
Commuter rail, you mean?
I've always seen a difference between S-Bahn and commuter rail.
Not really, IMX (and a few years ago I was going quite often to Germany for
work meetings, as well as travelling there for steam such as the Harz
network, the various narrow-gauge lines in Saxony and the Chemnitz steam
festival).
--
Jeremy Double
Bob
2022-01-27 08:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network. In Berlin and Hamburg
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard, and
largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
the trains are built are still UIC compliant. In that sense Overground
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER. The
Berlin S-Bahn is closer in concept to the LU subsurface lines in that,
while it can interoperate with mainline trains, it runs almost
exclusively on dedicated lines. The SSL of course do share tracks with
mainline trains in several locations like Richmond, Wimbledon and
Rickmansworth.

Robin
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-27 16:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.

Then there is commuter rail, such as NJ Transit Rail or Metro-North
Railroad, which can go almost 100 miles out.


In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,  and
largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
Bob
2022-01-27 16:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Then there is commuter rail, such as NJ Transit Rail or Metro-North
Railroad, which can go almost 100 miles out.
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service). In
terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition as
different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin where
it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is little
more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,  and
largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER? Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.

Robin
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-27 23:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
Line is still an Interurban.

Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
Post by Bob
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and from
the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
Huh?

Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.

There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.

Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.

MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
Post by Bob
In terms
of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition as
different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin where it
is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is little
more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to
which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense
Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.
S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.

Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-27 23:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
Line is still an Interurban.
Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
Post by Bob
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
Huh?
Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.
MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
Post by Bob
In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.
S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2022-01-28 05:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
Line is still an Interurban.
Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
Post by Bob
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
Huh?
Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.
MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
Post by Bob
In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.
S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
No, Stadtbahn is a different thing (tram with city tunnels, or pre-metro);
if it's abbreviated to anything it's "U-Strab".

<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbahn>


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Rolf Mantel
2022-01-28 10:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
Line is still an Interurban.
Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
Post by Bob
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
Huh?
Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.
MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
Post by Bob
In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.
S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
"Schnellbahn". During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
was run by East Berlin, U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
No, Stadtbahn is a different thing (tram with city tunnels, or pre-metro);
if it's abbreviated to anything it's "U-Strab".
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbahn>
this is what I meant by the "watering-down" of the S-Bahn brand:
In the past, S-Bahn was a brand of DB whereas U-Bahn, Stadtbahn and
Straßenbahn were run by communal operators.

Now, the former 'DB' brands have been opened to the competition, and
Karlsruhe decided to use the "S-Bahn" brand for their tram-trains which
are more Stadtbahn.

Rolf
Bob
2022-01-28 09:40:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
Line is still an Interurban.
Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
Post by Bob
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
Huh?
Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.
MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
Post by Bob
In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard, and
largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.
S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
whereas RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
Historically S-Bahn was intended to mean Schnellbahn, but it has come
to be a term in its own right, with no consistent "meaning". In most
places, though, a Stadtbahn is something akin to the Belgian concept of
a pre-metro, where a tram network has been built out with significant
off-street running, often in tunnel, and often with high platforms.
The Manchester Metrolink has a lot of the characteristics of a
Stadtbahn. It's essentially a half-way house between tram and metro,
with some characteristics of each.

Robin
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2022-01-28 02:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.
S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
Haven't we already determined in this thread, that only two cities' S-Bahn
networks are 3rd rail?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Bob
2022-01-28 09:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
Line is still an Interurban.
It is a collection of formerly disconnected suburban lines (the PRR and
Reading lines) with through running across the networks enabled by a
city centre tunnel. That's pretty much exactly how the RER in Paris
was created, and similar to both Crossrail and Thameslink.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
Lots of cities have metro systems comprising of lines of different
technology and character where throguh-running is not possible, but are
still in essence metros. The DLR in London, for example, is in all of
its characteristics a metro system, separate from the tube and
subsurface lines. Paris has both rubber tyred and steel wheel lines,
and a few driverless lines, while other lines are manually driven. New
York has the IRT lines that can not accommodate rolling stock from the
BMT and IND lines. Just because a line uses a different system,
doesn't mean it might not also provide a metro type service.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
Huh?
Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.
MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
pattern. I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid
the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example,
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America

"Many, but not all, newer commuter railways offer service during peak
times only, with trains into the central business district during
morning rush hour and returning to the outer areas during the evening
rush hour."
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard, and
largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.
That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.
S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
whereas RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
There are something like 16 S-Bahn branded networks operating in
Germany (depending on whether you count the cross-border Basel and
Satzburg routes). Only two of them have this characteristic (Berlin
and Hamburg), the remainder are conventional mainline rail, standard
(for Germany) OHLE powered, and largely indistinguishable from RER type
services.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
Along with Bremen, Rostock, Hannover, Magdeburg, Dresden, Köln,
Rhein-Ruhr, Rhein-Main, Rhien-Neckar, Nürnberg, Stuttgart, München,
Basel and Satlzburg, plus a number of S-Bahn branded systems in CH and
At.

Robin
NY
2022-01-28 09:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and from
the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
Huh?
Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter Rail,
the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run in both
directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these services
run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.
MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not a
universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in some
discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic, and
regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service pattern. I
just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid the potential
for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example, from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning, what
is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite direction
(city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS in one direction
and passenger-carrying in the other?
Bob
2022-01-28 10:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Bob
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
Huh?
Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.
MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
pattern. I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid
the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example,
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning,
what is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite
direction (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS
in one direction and passenger-carrying in the other?
If you would believe it, the approach is usually to have as many train
sets as there are morning and evening services, with each one spending
the night in a siding at the end of the line, then running one service
to the city, where it then parks in a siding and returns to the suburb
in the evening. Part of the reason for this is that these kinds of
services often run over single track with significant freight use, so
there are simply no paths for them to do anything mroe than one run in
in the morning and one out in the evening.

Robin
Theo
2022-01-28 09:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Huh?
Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.
MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
Those are rail systems. In other places, commuter rail is a few passenger
services on an existing freight line, which has use of the line the rest of
the time. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WES_Commuter_Rail
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_City_Star
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sounder_commuter_rail
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Corridor_Express

There is often a wish to run more services, but they're constrained by the
freight line owning the route and not wishing to lose any capacity, and the
configuration of the freight line (at-grade crossings, perhaps needing heavy
equipment for crashworthiness with freight trains)

Some systems (eg Caltrain) have gradually evolved from a primarily freight
route to one focused on full-time passenger operation, with changes to
infrastructure (electrification, crossings) and stock (lighter trains).
That has relegated freight (if any) to being the second class citizen on the
line, rather than the primary user.

Theo
Jeremy Double
2022-01-27 19:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if
WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
Then there is commuter rail, such as NJ Transit Rail or Metro-North
Railroad, which can go almost 100 miles out.
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,  and
largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
S-Bahn and RER are very similar, IMO.
--
Jeremy Double
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-27 23:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in
the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if
WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.
S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
Then there is commuter rail, such as NJ Transit Rail or Metro-North
Railroad, which can go almost 100 miles out.
In Berlin and Hamburg
Post by Bob
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,  and
largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.
S-Bahn and RER are very similar, IMO.
Agreed.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-26 21:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
More like RER, IMHO.
Yes, it's similar to the RER.
Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
The SSLs are more similar to the German S-Bahn's, IMHO.
Bob
2022-01-26 16:31:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
In terms of branding, it is its own entity.

In terms of ticketing and operating regime, it is regarded as part of
the National Rail network in the same way that London Overground and
Thameslink are.

In terms of how the operations of services are provided, it is a
concession let by the devolved London Assembly by TfL. This puts it on
the same basis as London Overground and the DLR, and also TfW Rail and
Scotrail (let by their respective devolved authorities), but it is let
as its own concession, separate from either the DLR or Overground.
(Unlike these, Thameslink is a conventional TOC, under the control of
the DfT.)

In terms of infrastructure ownership, the infrastrucutre between Old
Oak Common in the west and Abby Wood and Stratford in the East are
owned by Crossrail Ltd, owned by TfL (in the same way that the DLR is
owned by TfL). The other tracks, to Shenfield, and to Reading, are
owned by Network Rail, and the Heathrow Airport branch is woned by
Heathrow Airport.

In terms of rolling stock, the class 345s are owned directly by TfL in
the same way as tube and DLR trains, not owned and leased by a ROSCO.

Hope that clears it up a little.

Robin
Recliner
2022-01-26 16:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
In terms of branding, it is its own entity.
In terms of ticketing and operating regime, it is regarded as part of
the National Rail network in the same way that London Overground and
Thameslink are.
In terms of how the operations of services are provided, it is a
concession let by the devolved London Assembly by TfL. This puts it on
the same basis as London Overground and the DLR, and also TfW Rail and
Scotrail (let by their respective devolved authorities), but it is let
as its own concession, separate from either the DLR or Overground.
(Unlike these, Thameslink is a conventional TOC, under the control of
the DfT.)
Yes, and it's not even a TOC in its own right, and is currently just a part
of GTR.
Post by Bob
In terms of infrastructure ownership, the infrastrucutre between Old
Oak Common in the west and Abby Wood and Stratford in the East are
owned by Crossrail Ltd, owned by TfL (in the same way that the DLR is
owned by TfL). The other tracks, to Shenfield, and to Reading, are
owned by Network Rail, and the Heathrow Airport branch is woned by
Heathrow Airport.
Even on the NR-owned sections, the Elizabeth line trains often have
dedicated platforms, unlike Thameslink.
Post by Bob
In terms of rolling stock, the class 345s are owned directly by TfL in
the same way as tube and DLR trains, not owned and leased by a ROSCO.
Not any more.

<https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2019/03/transport-for-london-completes-sale-of-class-345-trains.html>
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2022-01-26 18:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
In terms of branding, it is its own entity.
In terms of ticketing and operating regime, it is regarded as part of
the National Rail network in the same way that London Overground and
Thameslink are.
In terms of how the operations of services are provided, it is a
concession let by the devolved London Assembly by TfL.  This puts it on
the same basis as London Overground and the DLR, and also TfW Rail and
Scotrail (let by their respective devolved authorities), but it is let
as its own concession, separate from either the DLR or Overground.
(Unlike these, Thameslink is a conventional TOC, under the control of
the DfT.)
In terms of infrastructure ownership, the infrastrucutre between Old Oak
Common in the west and Abby Wood and Stratford in the East are owned by
Crossrail Ltd, owned by TfL (in the same way that the DLR is owned by
TfL). The other tracks, to Shenfield, and to Reading, are owned by
Network Rail, and the Heathrow Airport branch is woned by Heathrow Airport.
In terms of rolling stock, the class 345s are owned directly by TfL in
the same way as tube and DLR trains, not owned and leased by a ROSCO.
Hope that clears it up a little.
Good grief

So basically if my ticket opens the gates I can travel on it and if not
I can't.
Bob
2022-01-26 18:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
them.
In terms of branding, it is its own entity.
In terms of ticketing and operating regime, it is regarded as part of
the National Rail network in the same way that London Overground and
Thameslink are.
In terms of how the operations of services are provided, it is a
concession let by the devolved London Assembly by TfL.  This puts it on
the same basis as London Overground and the DLR, and also TfW Rail and
Scotrail (let by their respective devolved authorities), but it is let
as its own concession, separate from either the DLR or Overground.
(Unlike these, Thameslink is a conventional TOC, under the control of
the DfT.)
In terms of infrastructure ownership, the infrastrucutre between Old
Oak Common in the west and Abby Wood and Stratford in the East are
owned by Crossrail Ltd, owned by TfL (in the same way that the DLR is
owned by TfL). The other tracks, to Shenfield, and to Reading, are
owned by Network Rail, and the Heathrow Airport branch is woned by
Heathrow Airport.
In terms of rolling stock, the class 345s are owned directly by TfL in
the same way as tube and DLR trains, not owned and leased by a ROSCO.
Hope that clears it up a little.
Good grief
So basically if my ticket opens the gates I can travel on it and if not
I can't.
From a ticket perspective, it's part of the National Rail network.

Robin
Bob
2022-01-26 16:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
to any great extent beyond covid.
One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
In terms of ticketing, it is part of the National Rail network. It is
a concession let by TfL in the same way that London Overground is, but
the two are separate concessions.

Robin
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2022-01-26 23:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
Looks like it's May now, based on this Evening Standard report:

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/london-news-crossrail-sadiq-khan-tfl-b978972.html
Recliner
2022-01-26 23:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
on a tentative opening day?
As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/london-news-crossrail-sadiq-khan-tfl-b978972.html
Could be. It's somewhere between March and June, so May would be a good
guess.
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