Train v Plane (again)

[Tweed]

I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

[Coffee]

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

You don't say if this is a split railway fair or not?

[Tweed]

Post by Coffee

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

You don't say if this is a split railway fair or not?

It wasn’t a split fare. I’ve just looked that up and it does knock between
25 and 33% off depending on the services chosen

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

Sam

[Tweed]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?
Sam

No! Just one direction by taxi is more than the return air fare.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Tweed

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?
Sam

No! Just one direction by taxi is more than the return air fare.

<cough> air taxi </cough>

Sam

[Tweed]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?
Sam

No! Just one direction by taxi is more than the return air fare.

<cough> air taxi </cough>
Sam

Ah! I thought you meant airport taxi.

To be fair about the fare, EasyJet seem to be exceptionally cheap for what
I have chosen. £168 return for the two of us. Jet2 from Birmingham wanted
around £500 for similarly timed planes. They’ve taken extra charges to a
new level - free 10kg cabin bag of the standard dimensions, but £5 per
person per leg to guarantee that they don’t offload it into the hold.

In obliquely related news, I was surprised to read in the FT yesterday that
Games Workshop, the Warhammer firm, has been promoted to the FTSE100 and is
now worth more than EasyJet.

[Marland]

Post by Tweed
Ah! I thought you meant airport taxi.
To be fair about the fare, EasyJet seem to be exceptionally cheap for what
I have chosen. £168 return for the two of us. Jet2 from Birmingham wanted
around £500 for similarly timed planes. They’ve taken extra charges to a
new level - free 10kg cabin bag of the standard dimensions, but £5 per
person per leg to guarantee that they don’t offload it into the hold.

Won’t they have problems with people leaving the plane if they put one of
their legs
in the hold?

GH

[Theo]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

I read the OP as if it was cheaper to fly from EMA to Gatwick than take the
train. I didn't think there were direct flights (there aren't) so I looked
it up. 11 March, there's a combination of Ryanair + Easyjet that'll do it
for £46. Only thing is it's 10h40, self transfer, and you go via Malaga.
But, as long as you don't want bags or anything, aren't in a hurry and don't
mind a risk of being stranded in Malaga, then maybe it is cheaper.

But this is apples and oranges, of course.

Theo

[Tweed]

Post by Theo

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

I read the OP as if it was cheaper to fly from EMA to Gatwick than take the
train. I didn't think there were direct flights (there aren't) so I looked
it up. 11 March, there's a combination of Ryanair + Easyjet that'll do it
for £46. Only thing is it's 10h40, self transfer, and you go via Malaga.
But, as long as you don't want bags or anything, aren't in a hurry and don't
mind a risk of being stranded in Malaga, then maybe it is cheaper.
But this is apples and oranges, of course.
Theo

Sorry, my original post was unclear. I didn’t mean East Midlands Airport,
but the train from that region to Gatwick was costing as much as getting
from Gatwick to Madeira by plane.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed
Sorry, my original post was unclear. I didn’t mean East Midlands Airport,
but the train from that region to Gatwick was costing as much as getting
from Gatwick to Madeira by plane.

Groundhog day, people thinking "EMP" is the code for East Midlands
Parkway station, when in fact the former is Emerson Park (near Romford)
and the latter is EMD.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
Sorry, my original post was unclear. I didn’t mean East Midlands Airport,
but the train from that region to Gatwick was costing as much as getting
from Gatwick to Madeira by plane.

Groundhog day, people thinking "EMP" is the code for East Midlands
Parkway station, when in fact the former is Emerson Park (near Romford)
and the latter is EMD.

I thought everyone knew that EMP is the electromagnetic pulse given off by
a nuclear explosion, and certainly everyone here should know of EMD being
the well known maker of locomotives in North America.

Sam

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Theo

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

I read the OP as if it was cheaper to fly from EMA to Gatwick than take the
train. I didn't think there were direct flights (there aren't) so I looked
it up. 11 March, there's a combination of Ryanair + Easyjet that'll do it
for £46. Only thing is it's 10h40, self transfer, and you go via Malaga.
But, as long as you don't want bags or anything, aren't in a hurry and don't
mind a risk of being stranded in Malaga, then maybe it is cheaper.

[applause]

Post by Theo
But this is apples and oranges, of course.

Of course. I was thinking air taxi from the OP’s front door, which is only
marginally more ridiculous.

Sam

[JNugent]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Theo

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

I read the OP as if it was cheaper to fly from EMA to Gatwick than take the
train. I didn't think there were direct flights (there aren't) so I looked
it up. 11 March, there's a combination of Ryanair + Easyjet that'll do it
for £46. Only thing is it's 10h40, self transfer, and you go via Malaga.
But, as long as you don't want bags or anything, aren't in a hurry and don't
mind a risk of being stranded in Malaga, then maybe it is cheaper.

[applause]

Post by Theo
But this is apples and oranges, of course.

Of course. I was thinking air taxi from the OP’s front door, which is only
marginally more ridiculous.

I sometimes use taxis to LHR. Price is about £125 + £5 drop-off charge
and £5 - £6 for the taxi in the car-park when being collected for the
return journey. It can be cheaper than long-term parking at Heathrow,
particularly if the trip is for three weeks. And much less hassle.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by JNugent

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Theo

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

I read the OP as if it was cheaper to fly from EMA to Gatwick than take the
train. I didn't think there were direct flights (there aren't) so I looked
it up. 11 March, there's a combination of Ryanair + Easyjet that'll do it
for £46. Only thing is it's 10h40, self transfer, and you go via Malaga.
But, as long as you don't want bags or anything, aren't in a hurry and don't
mind a risk of being stranded in Malaga, then maybe it is cheaper.

[applause]

Post by Theo
But this is apples and oranges, of course.

Of course. I was thinking air taxi from the OP’s front door, which is only
marginally more ridiculous.

I sometimes use taxis to LHR. Price is about £125 + £5 drop-off charge
and £5 - £6 for the taxi in the car-park when being collected for the
return journey. It can be cheaper than long-term parking at Heathrow,
particularly if the trip is for three weeks. And much less hassle.

<https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/air-taxi.htm>

Sam

[JNugent]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by JNugent

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Theo

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

I read the OP as if it was cheaper to fly from EMA to Gatwick than take the
train. I didn't think there were direct flights (there aren't) so I looked
it up. 11 March, there's a combination of Ryanair + Easyjet that'll do it
for £46. Only thing is it's 10h40, self transfer, and you go via Malaga.
But, as long as you don't want bags or anything, aren't in a hurry and don't
mind a risk of being stranded in Malaga, then maybe it is cheaper.

[applause]

Post by Theo
But this is apples and oranges, of course.

Of course. I was thinking air taxi from the OP’s front door, which is only
marginally more ridiculous.

I sometimes use taxis to LHR. Price is about £125 + £5 drop-off charge
and £5 - £6 for the taxi in the car-park when being collected for the
return journey. It can be cheaper than long-term parking at Heathrow,
particularly if the trip is for three weeks. And much less hassle.

<https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/air-taxi.htm>

Wow!

I used to like Dan Dare too!

[ColinR]

Post by JNugent

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by JNugent

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Theo

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

I read the OP as if it was cheaper to fly from EMA to Gatwick than take the
train. I didn't think there were direct flights (there aren't) so I looked
it up. 11 March, there's a combination of Ryanair + Easyjet that'll do it
for £46. Only thing is it's 10h40, self transfer, and you go via Malaga.
But, as long as you don't want bags or anything, aren't in a hurry and don't
mind a risk of being stranded in Malaga, then maybe it is cheaper.

[applause]

Post by Theo
But this is apples and oranges, of course.

Of course.  I was thinking air taxi from the OP’s front door, which
is only
marginally more ridiculous.

I sometimes use taxis to LHR. Price is about £125 + £5 drop-off charge
and £5 - £6 for the taxi in the car-park when being collected for the
return journey. It can be cheaper than long-term parking at Heathrow,
particularly if the trip is for three weeks. And much less hassle.

<https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/air-taxi.htm>

Wow!
I used to like Dan Dare too!

Blimey, showing your age!! ;-)

[Charles Ellson]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:07:11 +0000, ColinR

Post by ColinR

Post by JNugent

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by JNugent

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Theo

Post by Sam Wilson

I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for
two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare.
That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more
expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air
Passenger
Duty).

Do you think an air taxi to Gatwick might be cheaper?

I read the OP as if it was cheaper to fly from EMA to Gatwick than take the
train. I didn't think there were direct flights (there aren't) so I looked
it up. 11 March, there's a combination of Ryanair + Easyjet that'll do it
for £46. Only thing is it's 10h40, self transfer, and you go via Malaga.
But, as long as you don't want bags or anything, aren't in a hurry and don't
mind a risk of being stranded in Malaga, then maybe it is cheaper.

[applause]

Post by Theo
But this is apples and oranges, of course.

Of course.  I was thinking air taxi from the OP’s front door, which
is only
marginally more ridiculous.

I sometimes use taxis to LHR. Price is about £125 + £5 drop-off charge
and £5 - £6 for the taxi in the car-park when being collected for the
return journey. It can be cheaper than long-term parking at Heathrow,
particularly if the trip is for three weeks. And much less hassle.

<https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/air-taxi.htm>

Wow!
I used to like Dan Dare too!

Blimey, showing your age!! ;-)

Are you below the minimum age for uk.railway ? ;-)

[Theo]

Post by JNugent
I sometimes use taxis to LHR. Price is about £125 + £5 drop-off charge
and £5 - £6 for the taxi in the car-park when being collected for the
return journey. It can be cheaper than long-term parking at Heathrow,
particularly if the trip is for three weeks. And much less hassle.

Depends where you live and the local train v taxi prices, but taxi can make
sense over the train if there are 2-3 or more people. Especially if you'd
otherwise be getting a peak train where there are no cheap fares.

Theo

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

[Tweed]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

None. But airlines have much more expensive rolling stock that have to be
maintained to much higher standards. Their staffing levels within the plane
are much higher as well.

[JMB99]

Post by Tweed
Their staffing levels within the plane
are much higher as well.

And trained to much higher standards.

[ColinR]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports and
the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports and
the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

And the railways maintain both the stations and the very expensive
signalling systems.

[ColinR]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports and
the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

And the railways maintain both the stations and the very expensive
signalling systems.

Exactly, like for like - the "free" airspace is a red herring!

[Graeme Wall]

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more
expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

And the railways maintain both the stations and the very expensive
signalling systems.

Exactly, like for like - the "free" airspace is a red herring!

You've forgotten the track between the stations, that doesn't come for
free.

[Recliner]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two of us
in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East Midlands to
Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency
for late train running the train becomes quite a bit more
expensive. That’s
a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before anyone
trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air Passenger
Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

And the railways maintain both the stations and the very expensive
signalling systems.

Exactly, like for like - the "free" airspace is a red herring!

You've forgotten the track between the stations, that doesn't come for
free.

Yes, that’s where the real difference lies. Airlines do have to pay for ATC
and for overflight rights, but I think that’s far cheaper than track access
charges.

[JNugent]

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air
fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the railway,
ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit
more sensible contingency for late train running the train becomes
quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline. (Before
anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s compensated by Air
Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports and
the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.

A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about £200
(or less) before charges and tax(es).

[Clank]

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air
fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If I
add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the train
becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports and
the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about £200
(or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC etc.
charges is wildly overestimated.

Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US earlier
this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather than
Chicago.)) Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the non-carrier fees are:

Romania security charge: 6 eur
Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur
US security service: 10.38 eur
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur
US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur
US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur

So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate. (And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the 60eur
paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through Heathrow...)

This is all fairly typical. For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return in
a few weeks:

Romania security charge: 7 eur
Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur
Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur

In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare, and
airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really make up a
significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is as it
should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative modes for
those.)

(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline rather
than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as
paying for ATC.)

[Theo]

Post by Clank
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare, and
airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really make up a
significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is as it
should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative modes for
those.)

I think the wheeze here is breaking out the fuel into a separate
'surcharge', as if you pay for the plane and the fuel separately.
(maybe somebody should say 'no thanks, I'll bring my own')

Although compulsory fees and charges have become the bread and butter of low
cost airlines, at least until regulators catch up...

Post by Clank
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline rather
than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as
paying for ATC.)

Quite surprising it's that much, given that cost is independent of the
number of passengers or the size of the plane. I suppose countries which
are well positioned for overflight rights must make a decent income from it.

Theo

[Recliner]

Post by Theo

Post by Clank
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare, and
airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really make up a
significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is as it
should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative modes for
those.)

I think the wheeze here is breaking out the fuel into a separate
'surcharge', as if you pay for the plane and the fuel separately.
(maybe somebody should say 'no thanks, I'll bring my own')
Although compulsory fees and charges have become the bread and butter of low
cost airlines, at least until regulators catch up...

Post by Clank
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline rather
than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as
paying for ATC.)

Quite surprising it's that much, given that cost is independent of the
number of passengers or the size of the plane. I suppose countries which
are well positioned for overflight rights must make a decent income from it.

Yes, Russia used to, and Canada still does. I don’t know if European
countries charge separately, or if it’s all pooled.

[JNugent]

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air
fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If I
add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the train
becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports and
the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about £200
(or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC etc.
charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US earlier
this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather than
Romania security charge: 6 eur
Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur
US security service: 10.38 eur
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur
US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur
US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate. (And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the 60eur
paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical. For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return in
Romania security charge: 7 eur
Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur
Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare, and
airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really make up a
significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is as it
should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative modes for
those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline rather
than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as
paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

[Tweed]

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the air
fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If I
add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the train
becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports and
the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about £200
(or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC etc.
charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US earlier
this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather than
Romania security charge: 6 eur
Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur
US security service: 10.38 eur
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur
US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur
US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate. (And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the 60eur
paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical. For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return in
Romania security charge: 7 eur
Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur
Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare, and
airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really make up a
significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is as it
should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative modes for
those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline rather
than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as
paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

UK air traffic control isn’t funded out of taxation as far as I can tell.
It generated a profit of around £300 million out of revenues of around £1
billion.


https://www.caa.co.uk/newsroom/news/uk-civil-aviation-authority-publishes-price-control-decision-on-nats-airline-charges/

“The average charge for NERL’s regulated en route service over the period
2023 to 2027 inclusive is forecast to change by 26 per cent compared with
2022, from £42 to £53 in 2020 prices.

It is expected the Final Decision will increase the average cost of UK en
route air traffic services by around £0.43 to around £2.08 per passenger
per flight.

In nominal terms, the average charge is forecast to increase £47 in 2022 to
£64 in 2023 to 2027 inclusive. “

Annual report https://www.nats.aero/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/AR-24.pdf

Presumably international flights have other ATC fees to pay as well.

[Clank]

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the
air fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If
I add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about
£200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC
etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.)) Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the non-carrier
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate. (And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the
60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical. For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur Bangkok
Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare,
and airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really make up
a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is
as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative
modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline
rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a
ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

[JNugent]

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the
air fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If
I add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about
£200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC
etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.)) Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the non-carrier
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate. (And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the
60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical. For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur Bangkok
Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare,
and airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really make up
a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is
as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative
modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline
rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a
ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in the fare charged to the passenger?

[Certes]

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the
air fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If
I add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about
£200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC
etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the non-carrier
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.  (And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the
60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur Bangkok
Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare,
and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only really make up
a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is
as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative
modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline
rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a
ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes, but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others. This seems
to be a unique approach. When I buy a can of beans, I don't see a list
of separate charges for the can, transportation, checkout operator fee,
labelling surcharge, etc. It is accepted that these are costs borne by
the manufacturer and retailer and silently included in the shelf price.

[Tweed]

Post by Certes

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the
air fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If
I add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about
£200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC
etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the non-carrier
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.  (And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the
60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur Bangkok
Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare,
and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only really make up
a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is
as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative
modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline
rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a
ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes, but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others. This seems
to be a unique approach. When I buy a can of beans, I don't see a list
of separate charges for the can, transportation, checkout operator fee,
labelling surcharge, etc. It is accepted that these are costs borne by
the manufacturer and retailer and silently included in the shelf price.

Things have changed. Every air ticket I’ve purchased in recent times gives
a single base price for the ticket. The extras are limited to things over
which the purchaser has control over buying, eg baggage, seat selection
etc. I think the advertising authorities stamped out things over which
there is no option, eg airport charges, credit card charges.

[Theo]

Post by Tweed
Things have changed. Every air ticket I’ve purchased in recent times gives
a single base price for the ticket. The extras are limited to things over
which the purchaser has control over buying, eg baggage, seat selection
etc. I think the advertising authorities stamped out things over which
there is no option, eg airport charges, credit card charges.

ICBW but I think 'fuel surcharges' might be something to do with how legacy
airfares are priced on SABRE/Amadeus/...

ie fare class X has a base fare of $xxx which is semi-fixed, let's say $150.
But then the fuel surcharge is added on top, which gives airlines the power to
vary all their fares en masse. There are numerous fare classes O, P, Q, R,
S, T, ... on the same plane. When you purchase a ticket you see the
lowest fare class which has availability, which is the base fare for that
class plus the variable fuel surcharge.

Another one might be for buying tickets with points. Maybe you pay the $150
with points but you have to pay the fuel surcharge with cash.

At point of sale they aren't allowed any more to 'surprise' you with the
surchages, but they do show through if doing something more than a simple
purchase transaction eg if you try to cancel your ticket it could be that
the refund you get is calculated based on the underlying charges.

Theo

[JNugent]

Post by Certes

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the
air fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If
I add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about
£200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC
etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the non-carrier
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the
60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur Bangkok
Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare,
and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only really make up
a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is
as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative
modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline
rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a
ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes, but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others.

Well, I wasn't under the impression that it was 50p. I reckon nearer to
£200.

Post by Certes
  This seems
to be a unique approach.  When I buy a can of beans, I don't see a list
of separate charges for the can, transportation, checkout operator fee,
labelling surcharge, etc.  It is accepted that these are costs borne by
the manufacturer and retailer and silently included in the shelf price.

When you buy a tin of beans, there is no particular tax on it (AFAICR
and see below anyway).

Only hot takeaway foods are directly subject to VAT. So a pizza from
Domino's would have been a better example. There, 1/6th of the price is
tax. Only the totally innumerate would not be able to work that out.

That's not to mention the various taxes on productive processes (fuel
taxes, etc).

[Graeme Wall]

Post by JNugent

Post by Certes

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the
air fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If
I add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about
£200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC
etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the non-carrier
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the
60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur Bangkok
Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare,
and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only really make up
a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is
as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative
modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline
rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a
ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes, but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others.

Well, I wasn't under the impression that it was 50p. I reckon nearer to
£200.

Post by Certes
  This seems
to be a unique approach.  When I buy a can of beans, I don't see a list
of separate charges for the can, transportation, checkout operator fee,
labelling surcharge, etc.  It is accepted that these are costs borne by
the manufacturer and retailer and silently included in the shelf price.

When you buy a tin of beans, there is no particular tax on it (AFAICR
and see below anyway).
Only hot takeaway foods are directly subject to VAT. So a pizza from
Domino's would have been a better example. There, 1/6th of the price is
tax. Only the totally innumerate would not be able to work that out.
That's not to mention the various taxes on productive processes (fuel
taxes, etc).

You seem to have comprehensively missed the point.

[JNugent]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by JNugent

Post by Certes

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira
for two of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from
the East Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the
air fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for
the railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in
advance. If I add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about
£200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are
government/ATC etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW
rather than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur

US security service: 10.38 eur

Post by Clank
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur
US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur
US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the
60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK
Romania security charge: 7 eur
Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur
Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline
fare, and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only really
make up a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares
(which is as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging
alternative modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your
ticket, of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline
rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a
ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes,

Right!

*Yes*!

Though for some reason, it is absent from the list(s) of charges gven above.

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by JNugent

Post by Certes
but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others.

Well, I wasn't under the impression that it was 50p. I reckon nearer
to £200.

Post by Certes
This seems
to be a unique approach.  When I buy a can of beans, I don't see a list
of separate charges for the can, transportation, checkout operator fee,
labelling surcharge, etc.  It is accepted that these are costs borne by
the manufacturer and retailer and silently included in the shelf price.

When you buy a tin of beans, there is no particular tax on it (AFAICR
and see below anyway).
Only hot takeaway foods are directly subject to VAT. So a pizza from
Domino's would have been a better example. There, 1/6th of the price
is tax. Only the totally innumerate would not be able to work that out.
That's not to mention the various taxes on productive processes (fuel
taxes, etc).

You seem to have comprehensively missed the point.

Perhaps you can explain what you think it was.

The original argument seems to have been along the lines that
highly-taxed air travel is providing unfair competition for railway
companies and undertakings which pay little, if any, tax.

[Clank]

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira
for two of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard,
from the East Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of
pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using every possible
cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more
sensible contingency for late train running the train becomes
quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the
airports and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only
about £200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are
government/ATC etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the
US earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW
rather than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur

US security service: 10.38 eur

Post by Clank
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
6.48 eur US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17
eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for
money is the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of
passing through Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline
fare, and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only
really make up a significant proportion of short-hop
intra-continental fares (which is as it should be, because we
should probably be encouraging alternative modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your
ticket, of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation
and per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA
estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes,

Right!
*Yes*!
Though for some reason, it is absent from the list(s) of charges gven above.

The reason being, international passengers don't pay it.

[JNugent]

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira
for two of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard,
from the East Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of
pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using every possible
cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more
sensible contingency for late train running the train becomes
quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the
airports and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only
about £200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are
government/ATC etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the
US earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW
rather than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur

US security service: 10.38 eur

Post by Clank
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
6.48 eur US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17
eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for
money is the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of
passing through Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline
fare, and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only
really make up a significant proportion of short-hop
intra-continental fares (which is as it should be, because we
should probably be encouraging alternative modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your
ticket, of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation
and per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA
estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes,

Right!
*Yes*!
Though for some reason, it is absent from the list(s) of charges gven above.

The reason being, international passengers don't pay it.

So... what?

[I assume that by "international", you mean "foreign". I rarely fly on
domestic services. I am effectively always an international traveller
and *I* have to pay it. What the purpose in omitting might be is unclear.]

[Clank]

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira
for two of us in March. The train fare for us, with
railcard, from the East Midlands to Gatwick is within a
couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off
peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a
bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the
airports and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only
about £200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are
government/ATC etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to
the US earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return
(via DFW rather than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur

US security service: 10.38 eur

Post by Clank
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for
money is the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of
passing through Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic
airline fare, and airline fuel surcharges.  Government
taxes/fees only really make up a significant proportion of
short-hop intra-continental fares (which is as it should be,
because we should probably be encouraging alternative modes for
those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your
ticket, of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation
and per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA
estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes,

Right!
*Yes*!
Though for some reason, it is absent from the list(s) of charges gven above.

The reason being, international passengers don't pay it.

So... what?

Because I gave you an actual example from an actual ticket; are you able
to comprehend that? And as a "foreign", as you delightfully put it, it
wasn't included in my fare because it's not payable.

So if you want to work it out for yourself you can add 88 quid to what I
wrote up there *all on your own* (if necessary, you can ask mummy to hold
the crayon for you), and then tell us all if it adds up to the 5 to 600
quid you claimed.


Clue: It doesn't. Barely even half (less than half if you also remove the
taxes you *wouldn't* be paying as a Proud (if illiterate) Brit and not a
Foreign.)

[JNugent]

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira
for two of us in March. The train fare for us, with
railcard, from the East Midlands to Gatwick is within a
couple of pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using
every possible cost saving measure for the railway, ie off
peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a
bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised
airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the
airports and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only
about £200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are
government/ATC etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to
the US earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return
(via DFW rather than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur

US security service: 10.38 eur

Post by Clank
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for
money is the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of
passing through Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic
airline fare, and airline fuel surcharges.  Government
taxes/fees only really make up a significant proportion of
short-hop intra-continental fares (which is as it should be,
because we should probably be encouraging alternative modes for
those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your
ticket, of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation
and per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA
estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes,

Right!
*Yes*!
Though for some reason, it is absent from the list(s) of charges gven above.

The reason being, international passengers don't pay it.

So... what?

Because I gave you an actual example from an actual ticket; are you able
to comprehend that? And as a "foreign", as you delightfully put it, it
wasn't included in my fare because it's not payable.
So if you want to work it out for yourself you can add 88 quid to what I
wrote up there *all on your own* (if necessary, you can ask mummy to hold
the crayon for you), and then tell us all if it adds up to the 5 to 600
quid you claimed.
Clue: It doesn't. Barely even half (less than half if you also remove the
taxes you *wouldn't* be paying as a Proud (if illiterate) Brit and not a
Foreign.)

Why, after quoting the preceding posts in the same detail as I had used,
did you edit my actual post?

Only so that that you could falsely represent what I had said.

Rather like the implicit deceit in omitting Air Passenger Duty from the
list of "fees and taxes".

PS: In English, the word "foreign" is an adjective, and rather more
descriptive and accurate then the term "international".

[JNugent]

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira
for two of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard,
from the East Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of
pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using every possible
cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more
sensible contingency for late train running the train becomes
quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the
airports and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only
about £200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are
government/ATC etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the
US earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW
rather than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur

US security service: 10.38 eur

Post by Clank
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
6.48 eur US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17
eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for
money is the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of
passing through Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline
fare, and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only
really make up a significant proportion of short-hop
intra-continental fares (which is as it should be, because we
should probably be encouraging alternative modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your
ticket, of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation
and per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA
estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes,

Right!
*Yes*!
Though for some reason, it is absent from the list(s) of charges gven above.

The reason being, international passengers don't pay it.

So... what?

[I assume that by "international", you mean "foreign". I rarely fly on
domestic services. I am effectively always an international traveller
and *I* have to pay it. What the purpose in omitting might be is unclear.]

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 06:29:12 -0000 (UTC), Clank

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira
for two of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard,
from the East Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of
pounds the same as the air fare. That’s using every possible
cost saving measure for the railway, ie off peak Advance
tickets purchased well in advance. If I add a bit more
sensible contingency for late train running the train becomes
quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised
airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the
airports and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only
about £200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are
government/ATC etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the
US earlier this year with BA (OTP?LHR?ORD?MSP and return (via DFW
rather than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur
UK passenger service charge: 50.95 eur

US security service: 10.38 eur

Post by Clank
US transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
6.48 eur US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17
eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for
money is the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of
passing through Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP?DOH?BKK
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur
Doha passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline
fare, and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only
really make up a significant proportion of short-hop
intra-continental fares (which is as it should be, because we
should probably be encouraging alternative modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your
ticket, of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation
and per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA
estimates roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes,

Right!
*Yes*!
Though for some reason, it is absent from the list(s) of charges gven above.

The reason being, international passengers don't pay it.

Outbound international passengers transitting the UK.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exemptions-from-air-passenger-duty#transit-passengers
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/air-passenger-duty-and-connected-flights

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by JNugent

Post by Certes

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by ColinR

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed
I’ve just been booking some flights from Gatwick to Madeira for two
of us in March. The train fare for us, with railcard, from the East
Midlands to Gatwick is within a couple of pounds the same as the
air fare. That’s using every possible cost saving measure for the
railway, ie off peak Advance tickets purchased well in advance. If
I add a bit more sensible contingency for late train running the
train becomes quite a bit more expensive.
That’s a heavily subsidised railway vs an unsubsidised airline.
(Before anyone trots out that jet fuel is untaxed - that’s
compensated by Air Passenger Duty).

How much of the sky does the airline maintain?

Ahh, but the airlines (through charges) maintain both the airports
and the (very expensive) air traffic control systems.

All of that is charged up to the passenger.
A typical £700 - £800 return fare across the Atlantic is only about
£200 (or less) before charges and tax(es).

So, your estimation of how much of a longhaul fare are government/ATC
etc. charges is wildly overestimated.
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.))  Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the non-carrier
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48 eur
US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate.
(And of
those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is the
60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical.  For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK return
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur Bangkok
Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline fare,
and airline fuel surcharges.  Government taxes/fees only really make up
a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares (which is
as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging alternative
modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket, of
course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and per-airline
rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates roughly 15% of a
ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in  the fare charged to the passenger?

Yes, but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others.

Well, I wasn't under the impression that it was 50p. I reckon nearer to
£200.

Post by Certes
  This seems
to be a unique approach.  When I buy a can of beans, I don't see a list
of separate charges for the can, transportation, checkout operator fee,
labelling surcharge, etc.  It is accepted that these are costs borne by
the manufacturer and retailer and silently included in the shelf price.

When you buy a tin of beans, there is no particular tax on it (AFAICR
and see below anyway).
Only hot takeaway foods are directly subject to VAT. So a pizza from
Domino's would have been a better example. There, 1/6th of the price is
tax. Only the totally innumerate would not be able to work that out.
That's not to mention the various taxes on productive processes (fuel
taxes, etc).

You seem to have comprehensively missed the point.

…And the "Flights for 50p" joke!

[Ken]

Post by JNugent

Post by Certes
Yes, but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others.

Well, I wasn't under the impression that it was 50p. I reckon nearer to
£200.

My wife and I flew to Palma for £2.99 there and £3.99 back. Not much
more than 50p. Before the time that mandatory extras had to be
included in the base fare.

[JNugent]

Post by Ken

Post by JNugent

Post by Certes
Yes, but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others.

Well, I wasn't under the impression that it was 50p. I reckon nearer to
£200.

My wife and I flew to Palma for £2.99 there and £3.99 back. Not much
more than 50p. Before the time that mandatory extras had to be
included in the base fare.

My posited example was LHR - JFK.

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Ken

Post by JNugent

Post by Certes
Yes, but the airline industry likes to pretend that it is only charging
50p and the rest of the ticket price is imposed by others.

Well, I wasn't under the impression that it was 50p. I reckon nearer to
£200.

My wife and I flew to Palma for £2.99 there and £3.99 back. Not much
more than 50p. Before the time that mandatory extras had to be
included in the base fare.

http://youtu.be/ZAg0lUYHHFc

*grin*

[Clank]

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.)) Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48
eur US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate. (And
of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is
the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical. For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline
fare, and airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really
make up a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares
(which is as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging
alternative modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket,
of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and
per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates
roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in the fare charged to the passenger?
The duty is not payable by inbound international passengers who are
booked[1] to continue their journey (to an international destination)
within 24 hours of their scheduled time of arrival in the UK.

Even if it was, it's not really clear what it would have to do with paying
for ATC. APD doesn't fund ATC (or anything else in particular) - it's a
tax on British residents for the privilege of being allowed to leave the
country by air, nothing else.

You're also *still* over-estimating it, incidentally - a flight to the US
would fall in APD band B, and would be 88 quid for a flight in Economy,
194 quid for a flight in Business/First (well, strictly speaking, any seat
with > 40" seat pitch, which might include Premium Economy I guess.) The
tax is only payable on flights departing UK, not arriving, so only one
charge would apply.

[Recliner]

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.)) Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48
eur US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate. (And
of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is
the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical. For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline
fare, and airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really
make up a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares
(which is as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging
alternative modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket,
of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and
per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates
roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in the fare charged to the passenger?
The duty is not payable by inbound international passengers who are
booked[1] to continue their journey (to an international destination)
within 24 hours of their scheduled time of arrival in the UK.

Even if it was, it's not really clear what it would have to do with paying
for ATC. APD doesn't fund ATC (or anything else in particular) - it's a
tax on British residents for the privilege of being allowed to leave the
country by air, nothing else.
You're also *still* over-estimating it, incidentally - a flight to the US
would fall in APD band B, and would be 88 quid for a flight in Economy,
194 quid for a flight in Business/First (well, strictly speaking, any seat
with > 40" seat pitch, which might include Premium Economy I guess.)

Premium Economy is usually 38” pitch. I don’t know of any airlines that
provide more than 40”.

[Clank]

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket,
of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and
per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates
roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in the fare charged to the passenger?
The duty is not payable by inbound international passengers who are
booked[1] to continue their journey (to an international destination)
within 24 hours of their scheduled time of arrival in the UK.

Even if it was, it's not really clear what it would have to do with
paying for ATC. APD doesn't fund ATC (or anything else in particular)
- it's a tax on British residents for the privilege of being allowed to
leave the country by air, nothing else.
You're also *still* over-estimating it, incidentally - a flight to the
US would fall in APD band B, and would be 88 quid for a flight in
Economy, 194 quid for a flight in Business/First (well, strictly
speaking, any seat with > 40" seat pitch, which might include Premium
Economy I guess.)

Premium Economy is usually 38” pitch. I don’t know of any airlines that
provide more than 40”.

I was going to say "noooo, you can't be right," but indeed, you are. The
exceptions are apparently JAL and Air New Zealand. (And a very small
handful of others - some Virgin Australia and some United - but basically
you're right.)

Air New Zealand doesn't actually surprise me though; I flew with them to
NZ one way in Biz Class, and the other way Premium Economy, and if
anything the PE seats were better than the Business Class (and absolutely
better value.) The Biz hard product was an extremely tired first
generation lie-flat where your feet ended up on a very narrow ottoman
essentially in the aisle for people to trip over or bang their trolleys
into, while the PE seats were "last pre-lie-flat business class
generation" recliners that, while not fully flat, were much more
comfortable.

[Tweed]

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket,
of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and
per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates
roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in the fare charged to the passenger?
The duty is not payable by inbound international passengers who are
booked[1] to continue their journey (to an international destination)
within 24 hours of their scheduled time of arrival in the UK.

Even if it was, it's not really clear what it would have to do with
paying for ATC. APD doesn't fund ATC (or anything else in particular)
- it's a tax on British residents for the privilege of being allowed to
leave the country by air, nothing else.
You're also *still* over-estimating it, incidentally - a flight to the
US would fall in APD band B, and would be 88 quid for a flight in
Economy, 194 quid for a flight in Business/First (well, strictly
speaking, any seat with > 40" seat pitch, which might include Premium
Economy I guess.)

Premium Economy is usually 38” pitch. I don’t know of any airlines that
provide more than 40”.

I was going to say "noooo, you can't be right," but indeed, you are. The
exceptions are apparently JAL and Air New Zealand. (And a very small
handful of others - some Virgin Australia and some United - but basically
you're right.)
Air New Zealand doesn't actually surprise me though; I flew with them to
NZ one way in Biz Class, and the other way Premium Economy, and if
anything the PE seats were better than the Business Class (and absolutely
better value.) The Biz hard product was an extremely tired first
generation lie-flat where your feet ended up on a very narrow ottoman
essentially in the aisle for people to trip over or bang their trolleys
into, while the PE seats were "last pre-lie-flat business class
generation" recliners that, while not fully flat, were much more
comfortable.

APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Call it what you will, but it does level the playing field with other forms
of transport that end up paying some form of fuel duty. (And about to catch
up with EVs) All payers of duty are cash cows for government.

[Theo]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Actually it was introduced by Ken Clarke. Most taxes aren't hypothecated
and go into the general taxation pot.

It does something to level up the gap between untaxed jet fuel and taxed
rail/road fuel, although the introduction of a half-rate domestic band (£7
instead of £13) has lessened that effect for journeys where GB rail is in
competition.

Theo

[Tweed]

Post by Theo

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Actually it was introduced by Ken Clarke. Most taxes aren't hypothecated
and go into the general taxation pot.
It does something to level up the gap between untaxed jet fuel and taxed
rail/road fuel, although the introduction of a half-rate domestic band (£7
instead of £13) has lessened that effect for journeys where GB rail is in
competition.
Theo

The half rate domestic band is to compensate for the fact that out and back
are both taxed. Trips abroad are only taxed on the way out. Bit like the
Severn Bridge was only tolled in one direction.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Tweed

Post by Theo

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Actually it was introduced by Ken Clarke. Most taxes aren't hypothecated
and go into the general taxation pot.
It does something to level up the gap between untaxed jet fuel and taxed
rail/road fuel, although the introduction of a half-rate domestic band (£7
instead of £13) has lessened that effect for journeys where GB rail is in
competition.
Theo

The half rate domestic band is to compensate for the fact that out and back
are both taxed. Trips abroad are only taxed on the way out. Bit like the
Severn Bridge was only tolled in one direction.

The infamous Get Out Of Wales Free card.

[JNugent]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Actually it was introduced by Ken Clarke.  Most taxes aren't
hypothecated
and go into the general taxation pot.
It does something to level up the gap between untaxed jet fuel and taxed
rail/road fuel, although the introduction of a half-rate domestic band (£7
instead of £13) has lessened that effect for journeys where GB rail is in
competition.
Theo

The half rate domestic band is to compensate for the fact that out and back
are both taxed. Trips abroad are only taxed on the way out. Bit like the
Severn Bridge was only tolled in one direction.

The infamous Get Out Of Wales Free card.

:-)

You can get IN free as well, now.

I've only ever done that journey once in the toll-free era, though.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Theo

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Actually it was introduced by Ken Clarke.

Fair enough, but it was "That bigoted woman" Brown who augmented it into
a stealth tax.

Post by Theo
Most taxes aren't hypothecated and go into the general taxation pot.

Agreed, but some are more than averagely cash cows.

Post by Theo
It does something to level up the gap between untaxed jet fuel and taxed
rail/road fuel, although the introduction of a half-rate domestic band (£7
instead of £13) has lessened that effect for journeys where GB rail is in
competition.

Does GB rail get lower-taxed fuel (only a tiny part of their operating
costs) rather than zero-taxed red diesel?

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Theo

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Actually it was introduced by Ken Clarke.

Fair enough, but it was "That bigoted woman" Brown who augmented it into
a stealth tax.

Post by Theo
Most taxes aren't hypothecated and go into the general taxation pot.

Agreed, but some are more than averagely cash cows.

Post by Theo
It does something to level up the gap between untaxed jet fuel and taxed
rail/road fuel, although the introduction of a half-rate domestic band (£7
instead of £13) has lessened that effect for journeys where GB rail is in
competition.

Does GB rail get lower-taxed fuel (only a tiny part of their operating
costs) rather than zero-taxed red diesel?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-rebated-fuels-in-vehicles-and-machines-excise-notice-75

The types of vehicles that can use red diesel are:

vehicles designed to operate on a railway
agricultural vehicles
special vehicles
mowing machines
unlicensed, including SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) vehicles

Seems railways get to use red Diesel. 11p/litre vs 58p/litre for standard
Diesel.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Theo

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Actually it was introduced by Ken Clarke.

Fair enough, but it was "That bigoted woman" Brown who augmented it into
a stealth tax.

Post by Theo
Most taxes aren't hypothecated and go into the general taxation pot.

Agreed, but some are more than averagely cash cows.

Post by Theo
It does something to level up the gap between untaxed jet fuel and taxed
rail/road fuel, although the introduction of a half-rate domestic band (£7
instead of £13) has lessened that effect for journeys where GB rail is in
competition.

Does GB rail get lower-taxed fuel (only a tiny part of their operating
costs) rather than zero-taxed red diesel?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-rebated-fuels-in-vehicles-and-machines-excise-notice-75
vehicles designed to operate on a railway
agricultural vehicles
special vehicles
mowing machines
unlicensed, including SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) vehicles
Seems railways get to use red Diesel. 11p/litre vs 58p/litre for standard
Diesel.

So red diesel isn’t untaxed, and a document linked from the URL above shows
the rates as 10.18p and 52.9p.

Sam

[Tweed]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Theo

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed
APD is not an unreasonable tax. Jet fuel can’t be taxed, both by agreement
and by the fact that it would encourage tankering by airlines. Air travel
does impose costs upon the tax payer that aren’t otherwise recovered by
direct charges.

Except APD was iirc introduced by Gordon Brown as a classic "stealth
tax", where the funds were needed as general taxation, and people who
flew were seen as a cash-cow.

Actually it was introduced by Ken Clarke.

Fair enough, but it was "That bigoted woman" Brown who augmented it into
a stealth tax.

Post by Theo
Most taxes aren't hypothecated and go into the general taxation pot.

Agreed, but some are more than averagely cash cows.

Post by Theo
It does something to level up the gap between untaxed jet fuel and taxed
rail/road fuel, although the introduction of a half-rate domestic band (£7
instead of £13) has lessened that effect for journeys where GB rail is in
competition.

Does GB rail get lower-taxed fuel (only a tiny part of their operating
costs) rather than zero-taxed red diesel?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-rebated-fuels-in-vehicles-and-machines-excise-notice-75
vehicles designed to operate on a railway
agricultural vehicles
special vehicles
mowing machines
unlicensed, including SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) vehicles
Seems railways get to use red Diesel. 11p/litre vs 58p/litre for standard
Diesel.

So red diesel isn’t untaxed, and a document linked from the URL above shows
the rates as 10.18p and 52.9p.
Sam

Yes, seems my figures for duty are outdated. Duty has actually gone down.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
Does GB rail get lower-taxed fuel (only a tiny part of their operating
costs) rather than zero-taxed red diesel?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-rebated-fuels-in-vehicles-and-machines-excise-notice-75
vehicles designed to operate on a railway
agricultural vehicles
special vehicles
mowing machines
unlicensed, including SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) vehicles
Seems railways get to use red Diesel. 11p/litre vs 58p/litre for standard
Diesel.

Road vehicle diesel is currently about 145p/litre.

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
Does GB rail get lower-taxed fuel (only a tiny part of their operating
costs) rather than zero-taxed red diesel?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-rebated-fuels-in-vehicles-and-machines-excise-notice-75
vehicles designed to operate on a railway
agricultural vehicles
special vehicles
mowing machines
unlicensed, including SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) vehicles
Seems railways get to use red Diesel. 11p/litre vs 58p/litre for standard
Diesel.

Road vehicle diesel is currently about 145p/litre.

The numbers were for the duty rates

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
Does GB rail get lower-taxed fuel (only a tiny part of their operating
costs) rather than zero-taxed red diesel?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-rebated-fuels-in-vehicles-and-machin
es-excise-notice-75
vehicles designed to operate on a railway
agricultural vehicles
special vehicles
mowing machines
unlicensed, including SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) vehicles
Seems railways get to use red Diesel. 11p/litre vs 58p/litre for standard
Diesel.

Road vehicle diesel is currently about 145p/litre.

The numbers were for the duty rates

OK, shame you didn't say so earlier.

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
Does GB rail get lower-taxed fuel (only a tiny part of their operating
costs) rather than zero-taxed red diesel?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-rebated-fuels-in-vehicles-and-machin
es-excise-notice-75
vehicles designed to operate on a railway
agricultural vehicles
special vehicles
mowing machines
unlicensed, including SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) vehicles
Seems railways get to use red Diesel. 11p/litre vs 58p/litre for standard
Diesel.

Road vehicle diesel is currently about 145p/litre.

The numbers were for the duty rates

OK, shame you didn't say so earlier.

I’m using your invisible words….

[Recliner]

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket,
of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and
per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates
roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in the fare charged to the passenger?
The duty is not payable by inbound international passengers who are
booked[1] to continue their journey (to an international destination)
within 24 hours of their scheduled time of arrival in the UK.

Even if it was, it's not really clear what it would have to do with
paying for ATC. APD doesn't fund ATC (or anything else in particular)
- it's a tax on British residents for the privilege of being allowed to
leave the country by air, nothing else.
You're also *still* over-estimating it, incidentally - a flight to the
US would fall in APD band B, and would be 88 quid for a flight in
Economy, 194 quid for a flight in Business/First (well, strictly
speaking, any seat with > 40" seat pitch, which might include Premium
Economy I guess.)

Premium Economy is usually 38” pitch. I don’t know of any airlines that
provide more than 40”.

I was going to say "noooo, you can't be right," but indeed, you are. The
exceptions are apparently JAL and Air New Zealand. (And a very small
handful of others - some Virgin Australia and some United - but basically
you're right.)
Air New Zealand doesn't actually surprise me though; I flew with them to
NZ one way in Biz Class, and the other way Premium Economy, and if
anything the PE seats were better than the Business Class (and absolutely
better value.) The Biz hard product was an extremely tired first
generation lie-flat where your feet ended up on a very narrow ottoman
essentially in the aisle for people to trip over or bang their trolleys
into, while the PE seats were "last pre-lie-flat business class
generation" recliners that, while not fully flat, were much more
comfortable.

Those ANZ J class herringbone seats were a direct copy of Virgin Atlantic’s
pioneering design from 1999, and ANZ was duly sued for patent infringement.
It’s dated now, but those were the first lie-flat business class seats
where every seat had direct aisle access. They also had a proper,
completely flat bad with a decent cloth-covered mattress, rather than just
an unfolded seat. The seats had a comfortable reclining leather design.
That was pretty impressive 25 years ago, when few airlines even had
lie-flat seats in J.

BA’s ying-yang J class seats from the same era were more private, but
narrow, with no storage space, and half had no direct aisle access. I much
preferred the VS design.

The 38” PE seats are essentially 1980s business class seats. PE was another
Virgin innovation, originally called Mid Class.

[Clank]

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner
Premium Economy is usually 38” pitch. I don’t know of any airlines
that provide more than 40”.

I was going to say "noooo, you can't be right," but indeed, you are.
The exceptions are apparently JAL and Air New Zealand. (And a very
small handful of others - some Virgin Australia and some United - but
basically you're right.)
Air New Zealand doesn't actually surprise me though; I flew with them
to NZ one way in Biz Class, and the other way Premium Economy, and if
anything the PE seats were better than the Business Class (and
absolutely better value.) The Biz hard product was an extremely tired
first generation lie-flat where your feet ended up on a very narrow
ottoman essentially in the aisle for people to trip over or bang their
trolleys into, while the PE seats were "last pre-lie-flat business
class generation" recliners that, while not fully flat, were much more
comfortable.

The 38” PE seats are essentially 1980s business class seats.

Indeed; although the point was that on Air New Zealand those 38" PE seats
are actually 41/42" PE seats.

[Sadly with some airlines they lasted rather longer than the 1980s; I
remember in the late 1990s or very early 00s flying Air Canada "Executive
First" (which I think is actually what they called J on 2-class planes)
transatlantic and being extremely disappointed to discover it was
essentially a very dated biz class recliner. I seem to recall that at the
time Mike McShane (of Whose Line is it Anyway? fame) was advertising
rather more comfortable fare for them, and the reality certainly didn't
match the adverts. They didn't even have individual IFE - the flight crew
came around to hand out portable DVD players once in the cruise...]

[Recliner]

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner
Premium Economy is usually 38” pitch. I don’t know of any airlines
that provide more than 40”.

I was going to say "noooo, you can't be right," but indeed, you are.
The exceptions are apparently JAL and Air New Zealand. (And a very
small handful of others - some Virgin Australia and some United - but
basically you're right.)
Air New Zealand doesn't actually surprise me though; I flew with them
to NZ one way in Biz Class, and the other way Premium Economy, and if
anything the PE seats were better than the Business Class (and
absolutely better value.) The Biz hard product was an extremely tired
first generation lie-flat where your feet ended up on a very narrow
ottoman essentially in the aisle for people to trip over or bang their
trolleys into, while the PE seats were "last pre-lie-flat business
class generation" recliners that, while not fully flat, were much more
comfortable.

The 38” PE seats are essentially 1980s business class seats.

Indeed; although the point was that on Air New Zealand those 38" PE seats
are actually 41/42" PE seats.
[Sadly with some airlines they lasted rather longer than the 1980s; I
remember in the late 1990s or very early 00s flying Air Canada "Executive
First" (which I think is actually what they called J on 2-class planes)
transatlantic and being extremely disappointed to discover it was
essentially a very dated biz class recliner.

I think lie-flat beds came late to Air Canada. I recall them having 1+2+2
non-lie-flat J class cabins in their 767s 15-20 years ago.

Post by Clank
I seem to recall that at the
time Mike McShane (of Whose Line is it Anyway? fame) was advertising
rather more comfortable fare for them, and the reality certainly didn't
match the adverts. They didn't even have individual IFE - the flight crew
came around to hand out portable DVD players once in the cruise...]

I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn’t realised any
north American Airlines flew there. I’d assumed that Canadians looking for
winter sun would head to Florida or the Caribbean, or perhaps the Riviera,
not Portugal.

So I looked up the equipment they fly, and it’s A321LRs. These have a
small ‘Club’ cabin, fitted with, yes, 38” pitch PE seats. Perhaps they
bought the seats off AC, which now has a 1-1-1 lie-flat J configuration in
its 767s.

[Nobody]

Post by Recliner
I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn’t realised any
north American Airlines flew there. I’d assumed that Canadians looking for
winter sun would head to Florida or the Caribbean, or perhaps the Riviera,
not Portugal.

There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...
though age is catching up on the originals.

The Canuck Buck is in freefall, down about five cents against the
Ammurican in the past three months, with bank rate cuts not being
matched as aggressively as in the US... plus a certain Trumpet
Blower's threats.

So lower-cost destinations are in demand.

[Nobody]

Post by Nobody

Post by Recliner
I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn’t realised any
north American Airlines flew there. I’d assumed that Canadians looking for
winter sun would head to Florida or the Caribbean, or perhaps the Riviera,
not Portugal.

There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...
though age is catching up on the originals.
The Canuck Buck is in freefall, down about five cents against the
Ammurican in the past three months, with bank rate cuts not being
matched as aggressively as in the US... plus a certain Trumpet
Blower's threats.

Oops... with bank rate cuts not being matched as aggressively ... in
the US. We're the ones doing the slicing so money is moving
elsewhere.

[Recliner]

Post by Nobody

Post by Recliner
I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn’t realised any
north American Airlines flew there. I’d assumed that Canadians looking for
winter sun would head to Florida or the Caribbean, or perhaps the Riviera,
not Portugal.

There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...
though age is catching up on the originals.

Ah, I wasn’t aware of them. I think of Canadians as being of British,
French, or Asian (mainly Chinese and Indian) origin.

Post by Nobody
The Canuck Buck is in freefall, down about five cents against the
Ammurican in the past three months, with bank rate cuts not being
matched as aggressively as in the US... plus a certain Trumpet
Blower's threats.
So lower-cost destinations are in demand.

Yes, that makes sense, though Faro probably isn’t particularly low cost
these days.

[John Levine]

Post by Recliner

Post by Nobody
There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...
though age is catching up on the originals.

Ah, I wasn’t aware of them. I think of Canadians as being of British,
French, or Asian (mainly Chinese and Indian) origin.

They're way more diverse than that. There's a lot of ethnic Ukranians
in central Canada farming communities, and significant numberst of Filipino,
Italian and German origin.

Post by Recliner

Post by Nobody
The Canuck Buck is in freefall, down about five cents against the
Ammurican in the past three months, with bank rate cuts not being
matched as aggressively as in the US... plus a certain Trumpet
Blower's threats.
So lower-cost destinations are in demand.

Yes, that makes sense, though Faro probably isn’t particularly low cost
these days.

Air Transat does a lot of package tours. They have hotel packages in
Faro for C$3258 or about £1800 per person for airfare from Toronto and a week
in a beachfront hotel in mid January.

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by Nobody
There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...
though age is catching up on the originals.

Ah, I wasn’t aware of them. I think of Canadians as being of British,
French, or Asian (mainly Chinese and Indian) origin.

They're way more diverse than that. There's a lot of ethnic Ukranians

Sorry, was lkate in seeing this one.

Post by John Levine
in central Canada farming communities, and significant numberst of Filipino,
Italian and German origin.

Rome, Venice (seaosonal), Milan are, Naples will be served by Air
Canada.

Add FRA and MUC for Germany. Do not add DUS any more.

Regards, ULF

[John Levine]

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by John Levine
in central Canada farming communities, and significant numberst of
Filipino, Italian and German origin.

Rome, Venice (seaosonal), Milan are, Naples will be served by Air
Canada.
Add FRA and MUC for Germany. Do not add DUS any more.

I mostly fly from Toronto so I am acutely aware of AC's schedules.

I think those are more likely to be for tourists than for visiting
relatives. They have a lot of seasonal vacation routes.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Nobody

Post by Recliner
I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn?t realised any
north American Airlines flew there. I?d assumed that Canadians looking for
winter sun would head to Florida or the Caribbean, or perhaps the Riviera,
not Portugal.

There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...
though age is catching up on the originals.

Ah, I wasn’t aware of them. I think of Canadians as being of British,
French, or Asian (mainly Chinese and Indian) origin.

There are plenty in Alberta with Russian, German and Ukrainian
ancestry.
<snip>

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Recliner

Post by Nobody

Post by Recliner
I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn’t realised any
north American Airlines flew there. I’d assumed that Canadians looking for
winter sun would head to Florida or the Caribbean, or perhaps the Riviera,
not Portugal.

There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...
though age is catching up on the originals.

Ah, I wasn’t aware of them. I think of Canadians as being of British,
French, or Asian (mainly Chinese and Indian) origin.

You forgot Ukrainian origin but I couldn't find direct flights
even when there was civilian air traffic in Ukraine.

Regards, ULF

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Nobody

Post by Recliner
I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn’t realised any
north American Airlines flew there. I’d assumed that Canadians looking for
winter sun would head to Florida or the Caribbean, or perhaps the Riviera,
not Portugal.

There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...

Not sure that's the main reason;
see for Morocco:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat#Destinations

Post by Nobody
though age is catching up on the originals.
The Canuck Buck is in freefall, down about five cents against the
Ammurican in the past three months, with bank rate cuts not being
matched as aggressively as in the US... plus a certain Trumpet
Blower's threats.
So lower-cost destinations are in demand.

Add seasonal EWR <-> PMI by United.

[John Levine]

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Nobody
There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...

Not sure that's the main reason;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat#Destinations

Air Transat is primarily a leisure airline with a lot of vacation
packages so that makes sense.

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Nobody
The Canuck Buck is in freefall, down about five cents against the
Ammurican in the past three months, with bank rate cuts not being
matched as aggressively as in the US... plus a certain Trumpet
Blower's threats.
So lower-cost destinations are in demand.

Add seasonal EWR <-> PMI by United.

Not to be unduly picky, but I am reasonably sure that New Jersey
is in the US. At least it was while I was growing up there.

On the other hand there are definitely places that Canadians go
on vacation that Americans don't. The most obvious is Cuba, since
we mostly can't go there. There are flights from Montreal to
Guadeloupe and Martinique and for some reason the Cayman Islands
are popular with anglophone Canadians even though quite expensive.

We spent a week in Guadeloupe and the locals, hearing my accent, could not
figure out where I was from. Angleterre? Allemagne? Pays-Bas? Nope, les Etats
Unis. Huh, we don't see many Americans.

[Nobody]

Post by John Levine

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Nobody
There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...

Not sure that's the main reason;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat#Destinations

Air Transat is primarily a leisure airline with a lot of vacation
packages so that makes sense.

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Nobody
The Canuck Buck is in freefall, down about five cents against the
Ammurican in the past three months, with bank rate cuts not being
matched as aggressively as in the US... plus a certain Trumpet
Blower's threats.
So lower-cost destinations are in demand.

Add seasonal EWR <-> PMI by United.

Not to be unduly picky, but I am reasonably sure that New Jersey
is in the US. At least it was while I was growing up there.
On the other hand there are definitely places that Canadians go
on vacation that Americans don't.

We try to copy Australians and Aotearoa/New Zealanders in making sure
we keep our quotas up everywhere.

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Nobody
There's a considerable ex-pat Portuguese population in Greater Toronto
and Montreal, as well as a significant grouping in Metro Vancouver...

Not sure that's the main reason;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat#Destinations

Air Transat is primarily a leisure airline with a lot of vacation
packages so that makes sense.

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Nobody
The Canuck Buck is in freefall, down about five cents against the
Ammurican in the past three months, with bank rate cuts not being
matched as aggressively as in the US... plus a certain Trumpet
Blower's threats.
So lower-cost destinations are in demand.

Add seasonal EWR <-> PMI by United.

Not to be unduly picky, but I am reasonably sure that New Jersey
is in the US. At least it was while I was growing up there.

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Nobody

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner
Premium Economy is usually 38” pitch. I don’t know of any airlines
that provide more than 40”.

I was going to say "noooo, you can't be right," but indeed, you are.
The exceptions are apparently JAL and Air New Zealand. (And a very
small handful of others - some Virgin Australia and some United - but
basically you're right.)
Air New Zealand doesn't actually surprise me though; I flew with them
to NZ one way in Biz Class, and the other way Premium Economy, and if
anything the PE seats were better than the Business Class (and
absolutely better value.) The Biz hard product was an extremely tired
first generation lie-flat where your feet ended up on a very narrow
ottoman essentially in the aisle for people to trip over or bang their
trolleys into, while the PE seats were "last pre-lie-flat business
class generation" recliners that, while not fully flat, were much more
comfortable.

The 38” PE seats are essentially 1980s business class seats.

Indeed; although the point was that on Air New Zealand those 38" PE seats
are actually 41/42" PE seats.
[Sadly with some airlines they lasted rather longer than the 1980s; I
remember in the late 1990s or very early 00s flying Air Canada "Executive
First" (which I think is actually what they called J on 2-class planes)
transatlantic and being extremely disappointed to discover it was
essentially a very dated biz class recliner.

I think lie-flat beds came late to Air Canada. I recall them having 1+2+2
non-lie-flat J class cabins in their 767s 15-20 years ago.

Post by Ulf_Kutzner
I seem to recall that at the
time Mike McShane (of Whose Line is it Anyway? fame) was advertising
rather more comfortable fare for them, and the reality certainly didn't
match the adverts. They didn't even have individual IFE - the flight crew
came around to hand out portable DVD players once in the cruise...]

I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn’t realised any
north American Airlines flew there.

Regards, ULF

[Clank]

Post by Recliner
I noticed an Air Transat crew (including three 4-stripe captains) having
breakfast in the Faro hotel, which surprised me, as I hadn’t realised
any north American Airlines flew there. I’d assumed that Canadians
looking for winter sun would head to Florida or the Caribbean, or
perhaps the Riviera, not Portugal.
So I looked up the equipment they fly, and it’s A321LRs. These have a
small ‘Club’ cabin, fitted with, yes, 38” pitch PE seats. Perhaps they
bought the seats off AC, which now has a 1-1-1 lie-flat J configuration
in its 767s.

Qatar actually manage to fit full 79" lie-flat beds in J on about a third
of their A320s (and very nice it is too,) although in the slightly higher-
density configs they're 45"-pitch recliners. On the DOH-OTP leg I fly
regularly - which is a fairly short hop at around 4 hours give or take half
an hour depending on the wind - it's pretty much 50/50 whether you'll get a
lie-flat or not, but on slightly longer routes like DOH-BUD or DOH-VIE I
believe you're almost certain to get one.

They're all due to be replaced with A321neos in the next few years
(although I don't think deliveries have started yet,) be interested to see
what they fit when they do; maybe they'll put in something like the
"almost, but not quite a Qsuite" they came up with for the too-cramped-for-
the-real-thing 787.

Whatever it will be, it won't be as incongruous as lie-flats on a 737,
mind. FlyDubai have them, and they have a very odd alternating 2+2/1+1
layout to make it just about work (so the (very narrow) footwell of the
seat behind is actually between the two seats in front). I see they also
announced a "suite" product with 1+1 lie-flats angled so you're facing the
window rather than the front, but I've never experienced it (then again, I
fly only under extreme duress on 737s generally and FlyDubai especially, so
they may well exist.)

[John Levine]

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner
So I looked up the equipment they fly, and it’s A321LRs. These have a
small ‘Club’ cabin, fitted with, yes, 38” pitch PE seats. Perhaps they
bought the seats off AC, which now has a 1-1-1 lie-flat J configuration
in its 767s.

Qatar actually manage to fit full 79" lie-flat beds in J on about a third
of their A320s ...

TAP and Aer Lingus have flat bed seats on their A321LR for long haul flights.
JetBlue has similar seats from long US domestic flights.

https://thriftytraveler.com/reviews/flights/aer-lingus-business-class/

https://onemileatatime.com/tap-a321lr-business-class-review/

https://onemileatatime.com/review-jetblue-mint/

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner
So I looked up the equipment they fly, and it’s A321LRs. These have a
small ‘Club’ cabin, fitted with, yes, 38” pitch PE seats. Perhaps they
bought the seats off AC, which now has a 1-1-1 lie-flat J configuration
in its 767s.

Qatar actually manage to fit full 79" lie-flat beds in J on about a third
of their A320s ...

TAP and Aer Lingus have flat bed seats on their A321LR for long haul flights.
JetBlue has similar seats from long US domestic flights.
https://thriftytraveler.com/reviews/flights/aer-lingus-business-class/
https://onemileatatime.com/tap-a321lr-business-class-review/
https://onemileatatime.com/review-jetblue-mint/

Yes, the three abreast economy seating on either side of the aisle should
be able to accommodate the lie-flat business seats that occupy a similar
width in three-wide banks in wide bodies. Even the old B-Med A321s had
lie-flat seats in a 1-2, 2-1 layout. The only problem was that the window
seats lacked direct aisle access.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/tried-and-tested/british-airways-a321-ex-bmi-club-world-2/

[Recliner]

Post by Clank

Post by Recliner

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket,
of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and
per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates
roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in the fare charged to the passenger?
The duty is not payable by inbound international passengers who are
booked[1] to continue their journey (to an international destination)
within 24 hours of their scheduled time of arrival in the UK.

Even if it was, it's not really clear what it would have to do with
paying for ATC. APD doesn't fund ATC (or anything else in particular)
- it's a tax on British residents for the privilege of being allowed to
leave the country by air, nothing else.
You're also *still* over-estimating it, incidentally - a flight to the
US would fall in APD band B, and would be 88 quid for a flight in
Economy, 194 quid for a flight in Business/First (well, strictly
speaking, any seat with > 40" seat pitch, which might include Premium
Economy I guess.)

Premium Economy is usually 38” pitch. I don’t know of any airlines that
provide more than 40”.

I was going to say "noooo, you can't be right," but indeed, you are. The
exceptions are apparently JAL and Air New Zealand. (And a very small
handful of others - some Virgin Australia and some United - but basically
you're right.)
Air New Zealand doesn't actually surprise me though; I flew with them to
NZ one way in Biz Class, and the other way Premium Economy, and if
anything the PE seats were better than the Business Class (and absolutely
better value.) The Biz hard product was an extremely tired first
generation lie-flat where your feet ended up on a very narrow ottoman
essentially in the aisle for people to trip over or bang their trolleys
into, while the PE seats were "last pre-lie-flat business class
generation" recliners that, while not fully flat, were much more
comfortable.

Those ANZ J class herringbone seats were a direct copy of Virgin Atlantic’s
pioneering design from 1999, and ANZ was duly sued for patent infringement.
It’s dated now, but those were the first lie-flat business class seats
where every seat had direct aisle access. They also had a proper,
completely flat bad with a decent cloth-covered mattress, rather than just
an unfolded seat. The seats had a comfortable reclining leather design.
That was pretty impressive 25 years ago, when few airlines even had
lie-flat seats in J.

BA’s ying-yang J class seats from the same era were more private, but
narrow, with no storage space, and half had no direct aisle access. I much
preferred the VS design.

The 38” PE seats are essentially 1980s business class seats. PE was another
Virgin innovation, originally called Mid Class.

[JNugent]

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank

Post by JNugent

Post by Clank
Since you mentioned Transatlantic - I had a return flight to the US
earlier this year with BA (OTP→LHR→ORD→MSP and return (via DFW rather
than Chicago.)) Checking the detailed fare breakdown, the
Romania security charge: 6 eur Romania departure tax: 14.32 eur UK
passenger service charge: 50.95 eur US security service: 10.38 eur US
transportation tax: 20.56 eur (times two)
US animal & plant health service fee: 3.55 eur US immigration: 6.48
eur US customs: 6.46 eur US passenger facility charge: 4.17 eur
So that's roughly 150eur, not the 5 or 6 hundred you estimate. (And
of those, I'd say the most egregious in terms of value for money is
the 60eur paid to the UK for the dubious privilege of passing through
Heathrow...)
This is all fairly typical. For example, for a fare OTP→DOH→BKK
Romania security charge: 7 eur Romania departure tax: 15.32 eur Doha
passenger facilities: 31.36 eur (twice)
Doha arrivals/departures tax: 2.86 eur Doha security: 5.24 eur
Bangkok Advance Passenger Processing fee: 0.99eur (twice)
Bangkok arrival/departure fee: 0.43 eur (twice)
Bangkok passenger service charge: 20.55 eur
In both cases, the vast majority of the fare is the basic airline
fare, and airline fuel surcharges. Government taxes/fees only really
make up a significant proportion of short-hop intra-continental fares
(which is as it should be, because we should probably be encouraging
alternative modes for those.)
(ATC is not entirely funded out of the various taxes in your ticket,
of course, some of it is funded out of general taxation and
per-airline rather than per-flight levies; even so, IATA estimates
roughly 15% of a ticket as paying for ATC.)

"Air Passenger Duty"?

Mornington Crescent.

Is it not included in the fare charged to the passenger?
The duty is not payable by inbound international passengers who are
booked[1] to continue their journey (to an international destination)
within 24 hours of their scheduled time of arrival in the UK.

Even if it was, it's not really clear what it would have to do with paying
for ATC. APD doesn't fund ATC (or anything else in particular) - it's a
tax on British residents for the privilege of being allowed to leave the
country by air, nothing else.

Nevertheless, in the example I posited (LHR - JFK), APD most definitely
IS payable and IS charged in the fare asked of the passenger.

The effect of that is to reduce the proportion of the total charge which
is the actual fare and to increase the proportion of the total charge
which is "fees and taxes".

One can only wonder what was the purpose of omitting it from the cloud
of figures provided above.

Post by Clank
You're also *still* over-estimating it, incidentally - a flight to the US
would fall in APD band B, and would be 88 quid for a flight in Economy,
194 quid for a flight in Business/First (well, strictly speaking, any seat
with > 40" seat pitch, which might include Premium Economy I guess.) The
tax is only payable on flights departing UK, not arriving, so only one
charge would apply.