Avanti trains cancelled after ASLEF tells drivers not to walk on snow

[Recliner]

From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/

Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.

Avanti West Coast services between Liverpool and London did not run for
several hours on Sunday morning after members of the Aslef trade union
refused to walk to their trains.

The drivers were among those given a 15 per cent pay rise by the Government
last summer, sending their salaries soaring to just under £70,000 a year.

Ten trains were prevented from leaving the depot on time, leading to about
14 services being cancelled, according to a Telegraph analysis of Network
Rail data. This is likely to have resulted in thousands of passengers
having their journeys disrupted and delayed, leaving them in line for Delay
Repay compensation.

On Saturday, the Met Office had said that one to three inches of snow was
due to fall in the Liverpool area on Sunday, rising to five to 11 inches
across Wales and the southern Pennines.

Photographs of the Liverpool Edge Hill depot, taken in the small hours of
Sunday morning, show about two inches of snow on rails, electrical cables
and other equipment.

The depot is one of Avanti West Coast’s main servicing locations for its
long-distance Pendolino trains, which run between London, Liverpool,
Manchester and Glasgow.

Health and safety representatives from Aslef told drivers not to turn up at
the depot until the snow was cleared because the site was unsafe to walk
around, a railway insider claimed.

The insider said: “Edge Hill depot [was] not gritted last night. All
walkways covered in snow/ice and therefore no trains are able to leave as
there’s no safe walking routes for drivers.”

An Aslef spokesman said: “The walkways were covered in snow and ice, making
them unusable. Once they had been cleared, the drivers could access their
trains and did so. This is basic safety stuff.”

The spokesman dismissed suggestions that health and safety representatives
had been “over-reaching” and instead claimed Avanti was to blame.

But Gareth Bacon, the Conservatives’ shadow transport secretary, said:
“Just who is running our railways under this Government? It’s obvious who
they’re being run for: the unions,” he said. “Labour needs to stop allowing
their union paymasters to call the shots.”

Severe winter weather across the UK on the weekend caused major disruption,
with hundreds of homes being left without power and vehicles becoming
stranded on snow-hit roads.

The Environment Agency issued 28 flood warnings for large parts of Southern
England as well as major rivers such as the Avon and the Taw in Devon.

The snowfall was so heavy that it forced Liverpool and Manchester airports
to close their runways on Sunday morning. Both hubs had reopened by
10.15am, around two hours before trains began moving out of Edge Hill.

Refusal of train drivers to walk on snowy walkways is the latest in a list
of so-called “Spanish practices” employed by unions that can reduce the
amount of work done by their members.

One policy, dating from the 1980s, reportedly said: “All staff working with
microwave ovens shall be permitted to take time off from work, with pay,
for a medical check of any effects on them from the microwave ovens.”

Another practice consists of restarting scheduled breaks whenever passing
bosses greet staff on their downtime.

Avanti declined to comment, but a spokesman said the Liverpool Lime Street
train depot is run by Alstom. A spokesman for the train manufacturer said a
contractor had to be called back to the depot to clear the walkways after
routine scheduled treatment was carried out before the snowfall.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.
[snip propaganda]

The usual mix of half-truths and fantasy. I see Thatcher's infamous
"Spanish Practices" have reared their heads again. Last used to justify
trying to wreck ITV back in the 1980s.

[Charles Ellson]

On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 22:03:03 +0000, Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.
[snip propaganda]

The usual mix of half-truths and fantasy. I see Thatcher's infamous
"Spanish Practices" have reared their heads again. Last used to justify
trying to wreck ITV back in the 1980s.

If they are the old wooden walkways then IME snow and ice will make
them more dangerous than the problem they are designed to cure.

[Nobody]

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.

<shovelled>

Post by Recliner
Health and safety representatives from Aslef told drivers not to turn up at
the depot until the snow was cleared because the site was unsafe to walk
around, a railway insider claimed.
The insider said: “Edge Hill depot [was] not gritted last night. All
walkways covered in snow/ice and therefore no trains are able to leave as
there’s no safe walking routes for drivers.”

Which union grits its teeth and casts its untrained members adrift,
health and safety be damned?

[Marland]

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.
Avanti West Coast services between Liverpool and London did not run for
several hours on Sunday morning after members of the Aslef trade union
refused to walk to their trains.
The drivers were among those given a 15 per cent pay rise by the Government
last summer, sending their salaries soaring to just under £70,000 a year.
Ten trains were prevented from leaving the depot on time, leading to about
14 services being cancelled, according to a Telegraph analysis of Network
Rail data. This is likely to have resulted in thousands of passengers
having their journeys disrupted and delayed, leaving them in line for Delay
Repay compensation.
On Saturday, the Met Office had said that one to three inches of snow was
due to fall in the Liverpool area on Sunday, rising to five to 11 inches
across Wales and the southern Pennines.
Photographs of the Liverpool Edge Hill depot, taken in the small hours of
Sunday morning, show about two inches of snow on rails, electrical cables
and other equipment.
The depot is one of Avanti West Coast’s main servicing locations for its
long-distance Pendolino trains, which run between London, Liverpool,
Manchester and Glasgow.
Health and safety representatives from Aslef told drivers not to turn up at
the depot until the snow was cleared because the site was unsafe to walk
around, a railway insider claimed.
The insider said: “Edge Hill depot [was] not gritted last night. All
walkways covered in snow/ice and therefore no trains are able to leave as
there’s no safe walking routes for drivers.”
An Aslef spokesman said: “The walkways were covered in snow and ice, making
them unusable. Once they had been cleared, the drivers could access their
trains and did so. This is basic safety stuff.”
The spokesman dismissed suggestions that health and safety representatives
had been “over-reaching” and instead claimed Avanti was to blame.
“Just who is running our railways under this Government? It’s obvious who
they’re being run for: the unions,” he said. “Labour needs to stop allowing
their union paymasters to call the shots.”

Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

GH

[Recliner]

Post by Marland

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.
Avanti West Coast services between Liverpool and London did not run for
several hours on Sunday morning after members of the Aslef trade union
refused to walk to their trains.
The drivers were among those given a 15 per cent pay rise by the Government
last summer, sending their salaries soaring to just under £70,000 a year.
Ten trains were prevented from leaving the depot on time, leading to about
14 services being cancelled, according to a Telegraph analysis of Network
Rail data. This is likely to have resulted in thousands of passengers
having their journeys disrupted and delayed, leaving them in line for Delay
Repay compensation.
On Saturday, the Met Office had said that one to three inches of snow was
due to fall in the Liverpool area on Sunday, rising to five to 11 inches
across Wales and the southern Pennines.
Photographs of the Liverpool Edge Hill depot, taken in the small hours of
Sunday morning, show about two inches of snow on rails, electrical cables
and other equipment.
The depot is one of Avanti West Coast’s main servicing locations for its
long-distance Pendolino trains, which run between London, Liverpool,
Manchester and Glasgow.
Health and safety representatives from Aslef told drivers not to turn up at
the depot until the snow was cleared because the site was unsafe to walk
around, a railway insider claimed.
The insider said: “Edge Hill depot [was] not gritted last night. All
walkways covered in snow/ice and therefore no trains are able to leave as
there’s no safe walking routes for drivers.”
An Aslef spokesman said: “The walkways were covered in snow and ice, making
them unusable. Once they had been cleared, the drivers could access their
trains and did so. This is basic safety stuff.”
The spokesman dismissed suggestions that health and safety representatives
had been “over-reaching” and instead claimed Avanti was to blame.
“Just who is running our railways under this Government? It’s obvious who
they’re being run for: the unions,” he said. “Labour needs to stop allowing
their union paymasters to call the shots.”

Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

It does look like there had been some treatment:

A spokesman for the train manufacturer said a contractor had to be called
back to the depot to clear the walkways after routine scheduled treatment
was carried out before the snowfall.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.
Avanti West Coast services between Liverpool and London did not run for
several hours on Sunday morning after members of the Aslef trade union
refused to walk to their trains.
The drivers were among those given a 15 per cent pay rise by the Government
last summer, sending their salaries soaring to just under £70,000 a year.
Ten trains were prevented from leaving the depot on time, leading to about
14 services being cancelled, according to a Telegraph analysis of Network
Rail data. This is likely to have resulted in thousands of passengers
having their journeys disrupted and delayed, leaving them in line for Delay
Repay compensation.
On Saturday, the Met Office had said that one to three inches of snow was
due to fall in the Liverpool area on Sunday, rising to five to 11 inches
across Wales and the southern Pennines.
Photographs of the Liverpool Edge Hill depot, taken in the small hours of
Sunday morning, show about two inches of snow on rails, electrical cables
and other equipment.
The depot is one of Avanti West Coast’s main servicing locations for its
long-distance Pendolino trains, which run between London, Liverpool,
Manchester and Glasgow.
Health and safety representatives from Aslef told drivers not to turn up at
the depot until the snow was cleared because the site was unsafe to walk
around, a railway insider claimed.
The insider said: “Edge Hill depot [was] not gritted last night. All
walkways covered in snow/ice and therefore no trains are able to leave as
there’s no safe walking routes for drivers.”
An Aslef spokesman said: “The walkways were covered in snow and ice, making
them unusable. Once they had been cleared, the drivers could access their
trains and did so. This is basic safety stuff.”
The spokesman dismissed suggestions that health and safety representatives
had been “over-reaching” and instead claimed Avanti was to blame.
“Just who is running our railways under this Government? It’s obvious who
they’re being run for: the unions,” he said. “Labour needs to stop allowing
their union paymasters to call the shots.”

Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

A spokesman for the train manufacturer said a contractor had to be called
back to the depot to clear the walkways after routine scheduled treatment
was carried out before the snowfall.

"Routine scheduled treatment" does not sound appropriate for
non-routine snow and ice; if the snow is still falling then the
relevant "treatment" will be repeated sweeping. Other reports imply
there had been no gritting.

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.
Avanti West Coast services between Liverpool and London did not run for
several hours on Sunday morning after members of the Aslef trade union
refused to walk to their trains.
The drivers were among those given a 15 per cent pay rise by the Government
last summer, sending their salaries soaring to just under £70,000 a year.
Ten trains were prevented from leaving the depot on time, leading to about
14 services being cancelled, according to a Telegraph analysis of Network
Rail data. This is likely to have resulted in thousands of passengers
having their journeys disrupted and delayed, leaving them in line for Delay
Repay compensation.
On Saturday, the Met Office had said that one to three inches of snow was
due to fall in the Liverpool area on Sunday, rising to five to 11 inches
across Wales and the southern Pennines.
Photographs of the Liverpool Edge Hill depot, taken in the small hours of
Sunday morning, show about two inches of snow on rails, electrical cables
and other equipment.
The depot is one of Avanti West Coast’s main servicing locations for its
long-distance Pendolino trains, which run between London, Liverpool,
Manchester and Glasgow.
Health and safety representatives from Aslef told drivers not to turn up at
the depot until the snow was cleared because the site was unsafe to walk
around, a railway insider claimed.
The insider said: “Edge Hill depot [was] not gritted last night. All
walkways covered in snow/ice and therefore no trains are able to leave as
there’s no safe walking routes for drivers.”
An Aslef spokesman said: “The walkways were covered in snow and ice, making
them unusable. Once they had been cleared, the drivers could access their
trains and did so. This is basic safety stuff.”
The spokesman dismissed suggestions that health and safety
representatives
had been “over-reaching” and instead claimed Avanti was to blame.
“Just who is running our railways under this Government? It’s obvious who
they’re being run for: the unions,” he said. “Labour needs to stop allowing
their union paymasters to call the shots.”

Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

A spokesman for the train manufacturer said a contractor had to be called
back to the depot to clear the walkways after routine scheduled treatment
was carried out before the snowfall.

"Routine scheduled treatment" does not sound appropriate for
non-routine snow and ice;

Wrong kind of snow...

Regards, ULF

[Marland]

Post by Recliner

Post by Marland

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.
Avanti West Coast services between Liverpool and London did not run for
several hours on Sunday morning after members of the Aslef trade union
refused to walk to their trains.
The drivers were among those given a 15 per cent pay rise by the Government
last summer, sending their salaries soaring to just under £70,000 a year.
Ten trains were prevented from leaving the depot on time, leading to about
14 services being cancelled, according to a Telegraph analysis of Network
Rail data. This is likely to have resulted in thousands of passengers
having their journeys disrupted and delayed, leaving them in line for Delay
Repay compensation.
On Saturday, the Met Office had said that one to three inches of snow was
due to fall in the Liverpool area on Sunday, rising to five to 11 inches
across Wales and the southern Pennines.
Photographs of the Liverpool Edge Hill depot, taken in the small hours of
Sunday morning, show about two inches of snow on rails, electrical cables
and other equipment.
The depot is one of Avanti West Coast’s main servicing locations for its
long-distance Pendolino trains, which run between London, Liverpool,
Manchester and Glasgow.
Health and safety representatives from Aslef told drivers not to turn up at
the depot until the snow was cleared because the site was unsafe to walk
around, a railway insider claimed.
The insider said: “Edge Hill depot [was] not gritted last night. All
walkways covered in snow/ice and therefore no trains are able to leave as
there’s no safe walking routes for drivers.”
An Aslef spokesman said: “The walkways were covered in snow and ice, making
them unusable. Once they had been cleared, the drivers could access their
trains and did so. This is basic safety stuff.”
The spokesman dismissed suggestions that health and safety representatives
had been “over-reaching” and instead claimed Avanti was to blame.
“Just who is running our railways under this Government? It’s obvious who
they’re being run for: the unions,” he said. “Labour needs to stop allowing
their union paymasters to call the shots.”

Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

A spokesman for the train manufacturer said a contractor had to be called
back to the depot to clear the walkways after routine scheduled treatment
was carried out before the snowfall.

That would seem to be the problem and another example of farming out of
jobs to outside contractors so common in modern business which fails when
something out of the ordinary happens . There is likely a contract for the
walkways to be routinely swept at intervals which is sufficient in normal
weather conditions, come abnormal ones like falling snow someone had to be
called in specially maybe as an expensive extra cost which somebody with
their on eye on their KPIs
and their bonus was reluctant to authorise till belatedly it was realised
they really had to.
What should have happened is a person(s) with a broom and grit etc should
have been on site and going into action as the snow started to fall and
the temperature drop, but that would require proactive planning action not
reactive after the event.

GH

[Recliner]

Post by Marland

Post by Recliner

Post by Marland

Post by Recliner
From
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/06/trains-cancelled-after-union-told-drivers-not-to-walk-snow/
Train services were cancelled over the weekend after a trade union told
drivers not to walk on snow.
Avanti West Coast services between Liverpool and London did not run for
several hours on Sunday morning after members of the Aslef trade union
refused to walk to their trains.
The drivers were among those given a 15 per cent pay rise by the Government
last summer, sending their salaries soaring to just under £70,000 a year.
Ten trains were prevented from leaving the depot on time, leading to about
14 services being cancelled, according to a Telegraph analysis of Network
Rail data. This is likely to have resulted in thousands of passengers
having their journeys disrupted and delayed, leaving them in line for Delay
Repay compensation.
On Saturday, the Met Office had said that one to three inches of snow was
due to fall in the Liverpool area on Sunday, rising to five to 11 inches
across Wales and the southern Pennines.
Photographs of the Liverpool Edge Hill depot, taken in the small hours of
Sunday morning, show about two inches of snow on rails, electrical cables
and other equipment.
The depot is one of Avanti West Coast’s main servicing locations for its
long-distance Pendolino trains, which run between London, Liverpool,
Manchester and Glasgow.
Health and safety representatives from Aslef told drivers not to turn up at
the depot until the snow was cleared because the site was unsafe to walk
around, a railway insider claimed.
The insider said: “Edge Hill depot [was] not gritted last night. All
walkways covered in snow/ice and therefore no trains are able to leave as
there’s no safe walking routes for drivers.”
An Aslef spokesman said: “The walkways were covered in snow and ice, making
them unusable. Once they had been cleared, the drivers could access their
trains and did so. This is basic safety stuff.”
The spokesman dismissed suggestions that health and safety representatives
had been “over-reaching” and instead claimed Avanti was to blame.
“Just who is running our railways under this Government? It’s obvious who
they’re being run for: the unions,” he said. “Labour needs to stop allowing
their union paymasters to call the shots.”

Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

A spokesman for the train manufacturer said a contractor had to be called
back to the depot to clear the walkways after routine scheduled treatment
was carried out before the snowfall.

That would seem to be the problem and another example of farming out of
jobs to outside contractors so common in modern business which fails when
something out of the ordinary happens . There is likely a contract for the
walkways to be routinely swept at intervals which is sufficient in normal
weather conditions, come abnormal ones like falling snow someone had to be
called in specially maybe as an expensive extra cost which somebody with
their on eye on their KPIs
and their bonus was reluctant to authorise till belatedly it was realised
they really had to.
What should have happened is a person(s) with a broom and grit etc should
have been on site and going into action as the snow started to fall and
the temperature drop, but that would require proactive planning action not
reactive after the event.

Yes, that sounds about right. There's a lot of organizations involved in
the fragmented railway: the DfT, which pays the costs and wants them
minimized, the Treasury, which collects the fares, the operator (Avanti),
the train supplier (Alstom) which operates the depot, and the cleaning
subcontractor, which does what it's paid to do. There's nobody below the PM
who's responsible for both the revenue and the costs.

[Roger]

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

[Marland]

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen but risk reduction isn’t
absolute, people have to make the best of things and sometimes travel will
not be possible. Others will make their way using aids such as well treaded
boots and winter clothing and possibly a stick which would not be practical
to continue wearing in a driving cab so will have to change into normal
wear at the depot.
Non of which absolves the employers of making sure walkways etc are kept
safe , in fact if I was a driver who had carefully made my way to work
along treacherous roads and pavements to find the official walkways had
been neglected by management incompetence I would feel fairly pissed off

and wonder why I bothered to make the attempt when it would be easier to
just ring from home and say Sorry cannot get in roads are blocked.

GH

GH

[Roland Perry]

Post by Marland

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen

I'll help you out: That almost never happens. Sometimes the Highways
Authority will grit major routes (there are maps available showing the
extent) but in decades I've never seen them clearing pavements and
paths.

Post by Marland
but risk reduction isn’t
absolute, people have to make the best of things and sometimes travel will
not be possible. Others will make their way using aids such as well treaded
boots and winter clothing and possibly a stick which would not be practical
to continue wearing in a driving cab so will have to change into normal
wear at the depot.

What's to stop a driver changing shoes inside the cab?

Post by Marland
Non of which absolves the employers of making sure walkways etc are kept
safe , in fact if I was a driver who had carefully made my way to work
along treacherous roads and pavements to find the official walkways had
been neglected by management incompetence I would feel fairly pissed off
and wonder why I bothered to make the attempt when it would be easier to
just ring from home and say Sorry cannot get in roads are blocked.
GH
GH

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen

I'll help you out: That almost never happens. Sometimes the Highways
Authority will grit major routes (there are maps available showing the
extent) but in decades I've never seen them clearing pavements and
paths.

Post by Marland
but risk reduction isn’t
absolute, people have to make the best of things and sometimes travel will
not be possible. Others will make their way using aids such as well treaded
boots and winter clothing and possibly a stick which would not be practical
to continue wearing in a driving cab so will have to change into normal
wear at the depot.

What's to stop a driver changing shoes inside the cab?

The employer has a legal duty to provide a safe working environment with
risks lowered as far as is *reasonably* possible. Making walkways safe in
snowy/icy conditions is easily achieved and would pass the reasonable test.
In a train depot it would be relatively easy to install electrical heaters
and save the hassle of gritting/sweeping. My Norwegian friend has an
electrically heated driveway because it is on a slope.

[Marland]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen

I'll help you out: That almost never happens. Sometimes the Highways
Authority will grit major routes (there are maps available showing the
extent) but in decades I've never seen them clearing pavements and
paths.

Post by Marland
but risk reduction isn’t
absolute, people have to make the best of things and sometimes travel will
not be possible. Others will make their way using aids such as well treaded
boots and winter clothing and possibly a stick which would not be practical
to continue wearing in a driving cab so will have to change into normal
wear at the depot.

What's to stop a driver changing shoes inside the cab?

Don’t know , why don’t you ask one. But its not just footwear, Snow
usually needs something more substantial like boots and heavier than normal
outer garments often layered. There may be not be space for a heap of snow
encrusted clothing and boots dripping nicely where the melt water doesn’t
make a mess while avoiding it dripping into things it shouldn’t.

GH

[Tweed]

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen

I'll help you out: That almost never happens. Sometimes the Highways
Authority will grit major routes (there are maps available showing the
extent) but in decades I've never seen them clearing pavements and
paths.

Post by Marland
but risk reduction isn’t
absolute, people have to make the best of things and sometimes travel will
not be possible. Others will make their way using aids such as well treaded
boots and winter clothing and possibly a stick which would not be practical
to continue wearing in a driving cab so will have to change into normal
wear at the depot.

What's to stop a driver changing shoes inside the cab?

Don’t know , why don’t you ask one. But its not just footwear, Snow
usually needs something more substantial like boots and heavier than normal
outer garments often layered. There may be not be space for a heap of snow
encrusted clothing and boots dripping nicely where the melt water doesn’t
make a mess while avoiding it dripping into things it shouldn’t.
GH

Boots aren’t a reasonable alternative to clearing/maintaining the walkways.
Risks should be eliminated by reasonable means. Boots are a mitigation of
the risk. For example, if you are a national park ranger boots are
sensible, because you can’t reasonably clear all the park paths. Likewise,
boots are sensible for a mobile operations manager because there is no
reasonable alternative to them sometimes having to walk on the ballast.
Depot walking routes are a different matter.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry
What's to stop a driver changing shoes inside the cab?

Don’t know , why don’t you ask one. But its not just footwear, Snow
usually needs something more substantial like boots and heavier than normal
outer garments often layered. There may be not be space for a heap of snow
encrusted clothing and boots dripping nicely where the melt water doesn’t
make a mess while avoiding it dripping into things it shouldn’t.

I had a part-time job which involved wearing study boots, and if the
weather was bad all-weather trousers and jackets.

Kicking any snow that was picked up, off the boots, is easy. And you
only get snow encrusted on the clothing if as well as conditions
underfoot being poor, you also walk into driving snow for a non-trivial
amount of time.

Do Avanti provide their staff with umbrellas, and if not will the trains
stay in the spot next time it rains hard?

[Marland]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen

I'll help you out: That almost never happens. Sometimes the Highways
Authority will grit major routes (there are maps available showing the
extent) but in decades I've never seen them clearing pavements and
paths.

I think you and your community should be helping yourselves out first . It
is just about impossible to expect an authority to have the personnel to
keep everything clear. But they will provide grit with salt in bins at
intervals where residents can obtain salted grit and treat the pavements
themselves or chuck it on a bit of black ice that has formed on a dangerous
corner.
I’ve fetched a shovel or two from one yesterday and scat it in front of the
elderly neighbours.
Have you? What no bin, has it been nicked or no one told the council it
was, broken ,empty, you needed one.. That’s the fault of you and your
neighbours for expecting someone else to do everything. Trouble is
Snowfall is so rare now people have forgotten how to live with it.
To the authorities credit though this is a minor lane the gritter went past
in the early hours.

GH

[Lew1]

Post by Marland
I’ve fetched a shovel or two from one yesterday and scat it in front of the
elderly neighbours.

Why, was your toilet frozen? ;)

Lew

[Roland Perry]

Post by Marland

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roger
How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen

I'll help you out: That almost never happens. Sometimes the Highways
Authority will grit major routes (there are maps available showing the
extent) but in decades I've never seen them clearing pavements and
paths.

I think you and your community should be helping yourselves out first . It
is just about impossible to expect an authority to have the personnel to
keep everything clear.

People won't clear snow themselves because there's an urban myth that
doing so makes you liable for anyone falling over on the path you
cleared earlier.

And in any case so many houses lack a resident who is either
sufficiently able-bodied or even there most of the day. So clearing
outside just one is of little help.

Post by Marland
But they will provide grit with salt in bins at intervals where
residents can obtain salted grit and treat the pavements themselves or
chuck it on a bit of black ice that has formed on a dangerous corner.

Typically only on a handful of rural B Roads.

Post by Marland
I’ve fetched a shovel or two from one yesterday and scat it in front of the
elderly neighbours.
Have you? What no bin, has it been nicked or no one told the council it
was, broken ,empty, you needed one.. That’s the fault of you and your
neighbours for expecting someone else to do everything.

One of those "everythings" is providing the equipment and materials.

Post by Marland
Trouble is
Snowfall is so rare now people have forgotten how to live with it.

I agree with that!

Post by Marland
To the authorities credit though this is a minor lane the gritter went past
in the early hours.

[Certes]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm  by slipping and falling onto something hard
like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen

I'll help you out: That almost never happens. Sometimes the Highways
Authority will grit major routes (there are maps available showing the
extent) but in decades I've never seen them clearing pavements and paths.

A few years ago, Edinburgh council abused its Covid handout to install
bollards on cycle lanes. I very rarely see a cyclist use them but they
somehow seem to get gritted, providing a safer walking route than the
adjacent ice-covered official footway,

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Certes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm  by slipping and falling onto something hard
like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

Along roads ,pavements and paths cleared by the local authority .
OK I appreciate that isn’t always going to happen

I'll help you out: That almost never happens. Sometimes the Highways
Authority will grit major routes (there are maps available showing the
extent) but in decades I've never seen them clearing pavements and paths.

A few years ago, Edinburgh council abused its Covid handout to install
bollards on cycle lanes. I very rarely see a cyclist use them but they
somehow seem to get gritted, providing a safer walking route than the
adjacent ice-covered official footway,

Actually it’s more complicated than that. Many of the bollarded sections
of road were to provide a wider walking space, not a cycle path, and
several are still in place: off the top of my head I can think of
Morningside Road near Waitrose and Dalry Road under the West Approach Road
bridge.

Of course some motorists will abuse you for not cycling in them.

Sam

[Bob]

Post by Roger

Post by Marland
Health and Safety isn’t just the responsibility of the employer, employees
have a duty of care to themselves and should not take avoidable risks.
Breaking a leg or arm by slipping and falling onto something hard like a
rail as well as affecting the employee possibly for life will mean the
employer
losing a staff member for a period and be another person needing treatment
by the NHS, though possibly initial treatment is undertaken in a private
hospital under a company medical scheme.
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

How do the employees get to the depot in the first place? Presumably they
can't step outside their own front doors without risking slipping over?

If you are at home and on your own time you can use whatever tools you
have available, and take extra time to do what you have to do, in an
area you control as being free from hazards, in order to do things
safely. At work, you have to go into locations that you can not control,
you have only the tools your employer provides, and you have to complete
your task in the time alotted by your employer. A person who can safely
nagivate snow and ice in the former condition may not be able to do so
in the latter.

Robin

[JMB99]

Post by Marland
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

And staff who are not bright enough to wear suitable footwear and clothes?

Issue them all with all with industrial boots and instruct them to wear
them at all times.

[Marland]

Post by JMB99

Post by Marland
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

And staff who are not bright enough to wear suitable footwear and clothes?
Issue them all with all with industrial boots and instruct them to wear
them at all times.

I suspect they may already wear footwear a bit heavier than you would have
in an office due to the nature of the job, but most industrial boots only
reach a bit above the ankle, you need something more like wellies with a
good tread in snow to avoid ending up with wet feet all day.

And nothing absolves the management from making the workplace walkways as
safe as possible, it is their duty to do so and looking at the photos they
didn’t, an operative should have been in place with brooms and a bucket of
deicer grit etc before the forecast snow got to that depth.
Its common sense but modern management seems more about appointing
contractors and not thinking beyond that than using there nouse.
GH

[Roland Perry]

Post by Marland

Post by JMB99

Post by Marland
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

And staff who are not bright enough to wear suitable footwear and clothes?
Issue them all with all with industrial boots and instruct them to wear
them at all times.

I suspect they may already wear footwear a bit heavier than you would have
in an office due to the nature of the job, but most industrial boots only
reach a bit above the ankle, you need something more like wellies with a
good tread in snow to avoid ending up with wet feet all day.

Not if you have ties on the bottom of your trousers (the modern
equivalent of gaiters).

Post by Marland
And nothing absolves the management from making the workplace walkways as
safe as possible, it is their duty to do so and looking at the photos they
didn’t, an operative should have been in place with brooms and a bucket of
deicer grit etc before the forecast snow got to that depth.

It was reported to be two inches, so hardly up to the laces on their
boots.

Post by Marland
Its common sense but modern management seems more about appointing
contractors and not thinking beyond that than using there nouse.
GH

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Marland

Post by JMB99

Post by Marland
If management aren’t bright enough to think that walkways may need further
attention than normal when snow and Ice are forecast then that is who
criticism should be aimed at, not the drivers who work in an environment
where safety is held in high esteem and importance and they should not be
expected to turn that attitude off because management has slipped up by not
ensuring they won’t.

And staff who are not bright enough to wear suitable footwear and clothes?
Issue them all with all with industrial boots and instruct them to wear
them at all times.

I suspect they may already wear footwear a bit heavier than you would have
in an office due to the nature of the job, but most industrial boots only
reach a bit above the ankle, you need something more like wellies with a
good tread in snow to avoid ending up with wet feet all day.

Not if you have ties on the bottom of your trousers (the modern
equivalent of gaiters).

Post by Marland
And nothing absolves the management from making the workplace walkways as
safe as possible, it is their duty to do so and looking at the photos they
didn’t, an operative should have been in place with brooms and a bucket of
deicer grit etc before the forecast snow got to that depth.

It was reported to be two inches, so hardly up to the laces on their
boots.

Yes, the photos show only a light coating of snow, barely above shoe sole level. The question is whether there was also
ice underneath, as ASLEF claims.

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