Whats the steepest gradiant on UK mainline railways?

[Boltar]

I was just wondering this when standing at City Thameslink station in
london
where the train rises up a very steep slope to get to Blackfriars and
at
one point looks almost banana shaped in a vertical direction when half
the
train is on the slope. Is this one of the steepest gradiants on the
mainline (I realise
tramways and the DLR have far steeper ones) or are there others even
worse
than this one?

B2003

[Roland Perry]

Post by Boltar
I was just wondering this when standing at City Thameslink station in
london where the train rises up a very steep slope to get to
Blackfriars and at one point looks almost banana shaped in a vertical
direction when half the train is on the slope. Is this one of the
steepest gradiants on the mainline (I realise tramways and the DLR have
far steeper ones) or are there others even worse than this one?

It would seem to be 1:27, and is equally steep as a stretch of
Merseyrail at James Street. There are suggestions that the Blackfriars
stretch was planned to be 1:29, but ended up steeper for some reason.

[Stephen Furley]

Post by Roland Perry
It would seem to be 1:27, and is equally steep as a stretch of
Merseyrail at James Street. There are suggestions that the Blackfriars
stretch was planned to be 1:29, but ended up steeper for some reason.

On the same line, the gradient at the West end of Farringdon, looks
pretty steep too; do you know how steep this one is?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Stephen Furley

Post by Roland Perry
It would seem to be 1:27, and is equally steep as a stretch of
Merseyrail at James Street. There are suggestions that the Blackfriars
stretch was planned to be 1:29, but ended up steeper for some reason.

On the same line, the gradient at the West end of Farringdon, looks
pretty steep too; do you know how steep this one is?

"Around 1:30" is the best I can find quickly in the newsgroup archive.
It's unlikely to be 1:29 as that was apparently a figure from the
Guinness Book of Records when the Farringdon slope was in existence, but
the City Thameslink one had not yet been built.

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Roland Perry
It's unlikely to be 1:29 as that was apparently a figure from the
Guinness Book of Records when the Farringdon slope was in
existence, but the City Thameslink one had not yet been built.

The now closed line into Folkestone Harblor was 1:26.

The shallowest signed gradient is between Pirbiright Junction and
Farnborough on the South Western Main Line...

[Roland Perry]

Post by Paul Cummins

[Farringdon] is unlikely to be 1:29 as that was apparently a figure
from the Guinness Book of Records

Sorry, that should have been 1:27 (The Merseyrail gradient in GBR).

Just to clarify: an old GBR said Merseyrail was steepest at 1:27, so
Farringdon is likely to be shallower. Today, City Thameslink equals the
1:27 record of Merseyrail.

Post by Paul Cummins

when the Farringdon slope was in existence, but the City Thameslink
one had not yet been built.

The now closed line into Folkestone Harblor was 1:26

The vast majority of online sources say it was 1:30; and if it was 1:26
then GBR would have been wrong to give Merseyrail the record at 1:27 .

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Roland Perry
The vast majority of online sources say it was 1:30; and if it was
1:26 then GBR would have been wrong to give Merseyrail the record
at 1:27 .

It wouldn't be the first time GBR got something wrong though...

Certainly 1988 GBR had Folkestone Harbour listed as 1:26

[Roland Perry]

Post by Paul Cummins

Post by Roland Perry
The vast majority of online sources say it was 1:30; and if it was
1:26 then GBR would have been wrong to give Merseyrail the record
at 1:27 .

It wouldn't be the first time GBR got something wrong though...
Certainly 1988 GBR had Folkestone Harbour listed as 1:26

What's needed is an independent source for Folkestone, I suppose.

[David Jackson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Paul Cummins
It wouldn't be the first time GBR got something wrong though...
Certainly 1988 GBR had Folkestone Harbour listed as 1:26

What's needed is an independent source for Folkestone, I suppose.

Not quite sure how "independent" the Ian Allan Gradient Profiles book
is, but it gives the Folkestone Harbour Branch as 1 in 30.

[Pat Ricroft]

Post by David Jackson

What's needed is an independent source for Folkestone, I suppose.Not quite sure how "independent" the Ian Allan Gradient Profiles book

is, but it gives the Folkestone Harbour Branch as 1 in 30.

The "Five Mile Diagram" for the Harbour branch (all 85 chains of it)
also gives 1 in 30, but warns that it's "not necessarily been validated
by on site inspection".

[Peter Masson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Paul Cummins
The now closed line into Folkestone Harblor was 1:26

The vast majority of online sources say it was 1:30; and if it was 1:26
then GBR would have been wrong to give Merseyrail the record at 1:27 .

Is Folkestone Harbour closed? Last I heard the VSOE still went down there.

Peter

[D5233]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Paul Cummins
The now closed line into Folkestone Harblor was 1:26

The vast majority of online sources say it was 1:30; and if it was 1:26
then GBR would have been wrong to give Merseyrail the record at 1:27 .

Is Folkestone Harbour closed? Last I heard the VSOE still went down there.
Peter

There's certainly been some relatively recent use. Was in Folkestone
last week oddly enough and took a view or two which can be seen at

http://www.6lda28.com/fh.html

--
D5233
Email Address is valid

[Mark Annand]

Post by D5233
There's certainly been some relatively recent use. Was in Folkestone
last week oddly enough and took a view or two which can be seen at
http://www.6lda28.com/fh.html

Thanks for posting those, it bought back memories of travelling over
that line in 1982ish, as part of a through journey between London -
Folkestone and then Boulogne - Bologna and beyond - a UK-Italy service
organised by Citalia as a (memorable) alternative to a flight.

The UK section brought some very rough high speed riding between
Tonbridge and Ashford, and a long pause at Folkestone before the train
reversed down the bank and into a somewhat unused Folkestone Harbour
station. Mainland europe brought a lesson in how to turn a 6 seat
compartment into a 6 berth sleeper, a late night circuit of suburban
Paris, and then the experience of waking up in mountains and a tunnel
(Modane), some vague recollections of a halt for a border crossing, and
sailing past fog-shrouded windowboxes at a very early hour indeed before
a somewhat late and good natured descent into Italy involving breakfast
and a cheerful train crew with another Italian language lesson to impart!

[Steve Robinson]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Paul Cummins
The now closed line into Folkestone Harblor was 1:26

The vast majority of online sources say it was 1:30; and if it was 1:26
then GBR would have been wrong to give Merseyrail the record at 1:27 .

Is Folkestone Harbour closed? Last I heard the VSOE still went down there.
Peter

VSOE is a regular visitor to Folkestone Harbour on a regular basis from End
of March through to mid November. Thursday and/or Sunday. When I have
watched/filmed or photographed it there is a EWS Class 67 on each end.

last visit to Folkestone this year is 9 November and then starts again 22
March next year.


Steve

[Boltar]

Post by Roland Perry
Just to clarify: an old GBR said Merseyrail was steepest at 1:27, so
Farringdon is likely to be shallower. Today, City Thameslink equals the
1:27 record of Merseyrail.

Does this limit the sort of stock that can run on this section of line?
The EMUs seem to manage it without much fuss but would locos
or DMUs struggle?

B2003

[Roland Perry]

Post by Boltar

Post by Roland Perry
Just to clarify: an old GBR said Merseyrail was steepest at 1:27, so
Farringdon is likely to be shallower. Today, City Thameslink equals the
1:27 record of Merseyrail.

Does this limit the sort of stock that can run on this section of line?
The EMUs seem to manage it without much fuss but would locos
or DMUs struggle?

And is the limit determined by wheelslip or power/weight ratio?

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Roland Perry
And is the limit determined by wheelslip or power/weight ratio?

I think that brake force on the descent might be the limiting factor.

Very steep lines in Germany and Austria have been worked by standard
diesel locos with additional brake equipment added.

Charlie

[mark]

Post by Roland Perry
And is the limit determined by wheelslip or power/weight ratio?

1 x 4 car 319 is not permitted to attempt the incline from City
Thameslink to Blackfriars with a traction motor isolated.

IIRC 2 x 319s are permitted to have only one traction motor isolated
between them when running as an 8 car service.

Mark

[D7666]

Post by mark

Post by Roland Perry
And is the limit determined by wheelslip or power/weight ratio?

1 x 4 car 319 is not permitted to attempt the incline from City
Thameslink to Blackfriars with a traction motor isolated.
IIRC 2 x 319s are permitted to have only one traction motor isolated
between them when running as an 8 car service.

Ummmm ....

.... not sure on this ....

but can you isolate 319 motors singly ?

I thought you could only isolate in pairs. That makes a 4.319 only 50%
power and not enough so can't make the grade.

I'll make enquiries, unless one of our 319 drivers in here knows.

--
Nick

[MIG]

Post by D7666

Post by mark

Post by Roland Perry
And is the limit determined by wheelslip or power/weight ratio?

1 x 4 car 319 is not permitted to attempt the incline from City
Thameslink to Blackfriars with a traction motor isolated.
IIRC 2 x 319s are permitted to have only one traction motor isolated
between them when running as an 8 car service.

Ummmm ....
.... not sure on this ....
but can you isolate 319 motors singly ?
I thought you could only isolate in pairs. That makes a 4.319 only 50%
power and not enough so can't make the grade.
I'll make enquiries, unless one of our 319 drivers in here knows.

Remember my story about the 319 that took a run-up from the far end of
City Thameslink and got up the slope on the third attempt: if this
wasn't on full power, which it presumably wasn't, does that mean it
must have been on half power? In that case it did rather well.

[D7666]

Post by MIG

Post by D7666
but can you isolate 319 motors singly ?

must have been on half power? In that case it did rather well.

A couple of TL staff have told me its isolate in pairs only - so yes
4.319 is on 50% power, and 8.319 would be on 75%.

--
Nick

[David Hansen]

On 15 Oct 2006 10:35:15 -0700 someone who may be "Boltar"

Post by Boltar

Post by Roland Perry
Just to clarify: an old GBR said Merseyrail was steepest at 1:27, so
Farringdon is likely to be shallower. Today, City Thameslink equals the
1:27 record of Merseyrail.

Does this limit the sort of stock that can run on this section of line?
The EMUs seem to manage it without much fuss but would locos
or DMUs struggle?

Steam hauled goods trains used the incline at Farringdon for a long
time and the similar Snow Hill incline (which was replaced by the
current one). These were going to the various goods stations along
the line, including Smithfield and transfer trains between the
various lines.

Steam hauled passenger trains used Snow Hill until ISTR the 1914-18
war. Steam and diesel locomotives hauled passenger trains to the
ex-MR and ex-LNER lines until the 1970s, including the incline at
Farringdon. The ex-LNER services finished when replaced by main line
trains to Moorgate. The ex-MR services were operated by what we now
call heritage DMUs for many years, perhaps they took over from
steam, until the line closed for electrification. I only travelled
on such a train once and it coped with the incline.

[Peter Masson]

Post by David Hansen
Steam hauled passenger trains used Snow Hill until ISTR the 1914-18
war. Steam and diesel locomotives hauled passenger trains to the
ex-MR and ex-LNER lines until the 1970s, including the incline at
Farringdon. The ex-LNER services finished when replaced by main line
trains to Moorgate. The ex-MR services were operated by what we now
call heritage DMUs for many years, perhaps they took over from
steam, until the line closed for electrification. I only travelled
on such a train once and it coped with the incline.

More of a problem, though not quite as steep, was the Hotel Curve at Kings
Cross, used by trains from Moorgate and the Widened Lines to the Great
Northern Line. This was 1 in 35 at its steepest, but on a curve of 7 chains
radius. Freight trains could not normally be banked (a bank engine would
have caused chaos crossing the throat of Kings Cross to return), and double
heading was not allowed (the crew of the second loco would have been
suffocated by the exhaust fromn the first. An unfortunate GNR employee was
obliged to spend his working hours in this fearsome hole, spreading sand on
teh rails after the passage of each train.

Peter

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen
Steam hauled goods trains used the incline at Farringdon for a long
time and the similar Snow Hill incline (which was replaced by the
current one).

The Snow Hill incline was less steep than the current climb, but the
Farringdon one is presumably the same as it ever was.

[Ken Wheatley]

Post by Boltar

Post by Roland Perry
Just to clarify: an old GBR said Merseyrail was steepest at 1:27, so
Farringdon is likely to be shallower. Today, City Thameslink equals the
1:27 record of Merseyrail.

Does this limit the sort of stock that can run on this section of line?
The EMUs seem to manage it without much fuss but would locos
or DMUs struggle?

ISTR that the Graham Road curve had restrictions due to its gradient
(which is what?). Just before the through electrification from
Liverpool Street to Cambridge was introduced I was on a 37-hauled
service between the two points. The knitting was tangled at Cheshunt
so we were diverted via the ECML, but couldn't use the Graham Road
Curve and had to go via stratford.

[unknown]

Post by Boltar

Post by Roland Perry
Just to clarify: an old GBR said Merseyrail was steepest at 1:27, so
Farringdon is likely to be shallower. Today, City Thameslink equals the
1:27 record of Merseyrail.

Does this limit the sort of stock that can run on this section of line?
The EMUs seem to manage it without much fuss but would locos
or DMUs struggle?
B2003

I remember being 10(?) cars top 'n' tailed with 47s out of the harbour
branch. Once at the top we reversed in the siding/headshunt west of
Martello tunnel and headed off westwards leaving the erstwhile lead 47
in the shunt.

The assault on the bank was very aggressive with loads of clag and
both 47s bellowing, (seemingly) on full tilt as we left the station
(run-up?)

so in short answer - yes it could prove challenging for locomotives.

Odd thing is, class 40 used to appear at folkstone on troop trains in
the 60's and never seemed to have dificulty getting in or out...?

[Richard W. Jones]

Post by unknown

Post by Boltar

Post by Roland Perry
Just to clarify: an old GBR said Merseyrail was steepest at 1:27, so
Farringdon is likely to be shallower. Today, City Thameslink equals the
1:27 record of Merseyrail.

Does this limit the sort of stock that can run on this section of line?
The EMUs seem to manage it without much fuss but would locos
or DMUs struggle?
B2003

I remember being 10(?) cars top 'n' tailed with 47s out of the harbour
branch. Once at the top we reversed in the siding/headshunt west of
Martello tunnel and headed off westwards leaving the erstwhile lead 47
in the shunt.
The assault on the bank was very aggressive with loads of clag and
both 47s bellowing, (seemingly) on full tilt as we left the station
(run-up?)
so in short answer - yes it could prove challenging for locomotives.
Odd thing is, class 40 used to appear at folkstone on troop trains in
the 60's and never seemed to have dificulty getting in or out...?

Take a look at the "Carry on Clagging" DVD. There's footage on it of a
couple of Class 73s TnT on a VSOE climbing out of Folkestone Harbour,
painfully slowly and noisily, because the juice was turned off.

[unknown]

Post by Richard W. Jones

Post by unknown

Post by Boltar

Post by Roland Perry
Just to clarify: an old GBR said Merseyrail was steepest at 1:27, so
Farringdon is likely to be shallower. Today, City Thameslink equals the
1:27 record of Merseyrail.

Does this limit the sort of stock that can run on this section of line?
The EMUs seem to manage it without much fuss but would locos
or DMUs struggle?
B2003

I remember being 10(?) cars top 'n' tailed with 47s out of the harbour
branch. Once at the top we reversed in the siding/headshunt west of
Martello tunnel and headed off westwards leaving the erstwhile lead 47
in the shunt.
The assault on the bank was very aggressive with loads of clag and
both 47s bellowing, (seemingly) on full tilt as we left the station
(run-up?)
so in short answer - yes it could prove challenging for locomotives.
Odd thing is, class 40 used to appear at folkstone on troop trains in
the 60's and never seemed to have dificulty getting in or out...?

Take a look at the "Carry on Clagging" DVD. There's footage on it of a
couple of Class 73s TnT on a VSOE climbing out of Folkestone Harbour,
painfully slowly and noisily, because the juice was turned off.

the raw grunt of 1200Hp :o)

[Tony Dragon]

Post by Stephen Furley

Post by Roland Perry
It would seem to be 1:27, and is equally steep as a stretch of
Merseyrail at James Street. There are suggestions that the Blackfriars
stretch was planned to be 1:29, but ended up steeper for some reason.

On the same line, the gradient at the West end of Farringdon, looks
pretty steep too; do you know how steep this one is?

Can anybody tell me what 'the wall of death' line from Sutton to Wimbledon
had in the way of steep gradients?

[Bevan Price]

Post by Boltar
I was just wondering this when standing at City Thameslink station in
london where the train rises up a very steep slope to get to Blackfriars
and at one point looks almost banana shaped in a vertical direction when
half the train is on the slope. Is this one of the steepest gradiants on
the mainline (I realise tramways and the DLR have far steeper ones) or are
there others even worse than this one?

It would seem to be 1:27, and is equally steep as a stretch of Merseyrail
at James Street. There are suggestions that the Blackfriars stretch was
planned to be 1:29, but ended up steeper for some reason.
--
Roland Perry

Even steeper, but on a freight-only line, was a section at 1 in 14 on the
Cromford and High Peak railway. .

Bevan

[Roland Perry]

Post by Bevan Price

It would seem to be 1:27, and is equally steep as a stretch of Merseyrail
at James Street. There are suggestions that the Blackfriars stretch was
planned to be 1:29, but ended up steeper for some reason.

Even steeper, but on a freight-only line, was a section at 1 in 14 on the
Cromford and High Peak railway. .

Yes, that's commonly quoted as the contender for the historic record;
although others mention a 1:10 line at Leicester.

[Stephen Furley]

Post by Roland Perry
Yes, that's commonly quoted as the contender for the historic record;
although others mention a 1:10 line at Leicester.

Not a mainline railway, but what was the ramp up from the Kingsway Tram
Subway, at Holborn?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Stephen Furley

Post by Roland Perry
Yes, that's commonly quoted as the contender for the historic record;
although others mention a 1:10 line at Leicester.

Not a mainline railway, but what was the ramp up from the Kingsway Tram
Subway, at Holborn?

Had sections of 1:10 apparently:

<http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/k/kingsway_tram_subway/index.s
html>

[Jonathan Stott]

Post by Bevan Price
Even steeper, but on a freight-only line, was a section at 1 in 14 on the
Cromford and High Peak railway. .

Blimey, that's even steeper than the Flåm Railway in Norway, which has a
maximum gradient of 1:18. But that's an OHLE passenger line!
http://www.flaamsbana.no/eng/Index.html