Hull Trains - do they have a contingency plan?

[John Salmon]

Hull Trains' Class 170's - all 12 coaches in a single train - headed off to
Scotland on Sunday, leaving the new increased HT service in the hands of the
four Class 222 "Pioneer" sets. On weekdays between 12.10 and 12.45, all
four trains have to be in service simultaneously if the advertised timetable
is to be maintained. Surely they can't be expecting to maintain 100%
availability all week every week? What happens when one is out of service?

[Mike Cawood, HND BIT]

Post by John Salmon
Hull Trains' Class 170's - all 12 coaches in a single train - headed off to
Scotland on Sunday, leaving the new increased HT service in the hands of the
four Class 222 "Pioneer" sets. On weekdays between 12.10 and 12.45, all
four trains have to be in service simultaneously if the advertised timetable
is to be maintained. Surely they can't be expecting to maintain 100%
availability all week every week? What happens when one is out of service?

Presumably they will have to hire/lease a dmu.
Or failing that, upset their customers by not providing a service
(nothing new here!).
Regards Mike.

[D7666]

Post by John Salmon

Post by John Salmon
is to be maintained. Surely they can't be expecting to maintain 100%
availability all week every week? What happens when one is out of

service?

A perfectly acceoptable business risk - 21st century enginerring ought
to be able to deal with this. Airlines do it all the time.



--
Nick

[BH Williams]

Post by D7666

Post by John Salmon

Post by John Salmon
is to be maintained. Surely they can't be expecting to maintain 100%
availability all week every week? What happens when one is out of

service?

A perfectly acceoptable business risk - 21st century enginerring ought
to be able to deal with this. Airlines do it all the time.
--
Nick

I work with this sort of availability on most Saturdays from May to October,
albeit on a somewhat smaller system- contingency consists of a carefully
followed time-space graph, and a little black book of favours to call in.
Not sure that I'd like to do it with the number of external variables that
Hull Trains have got, however.
Brian

[D7666]

Post by BH Williams
I work with this sort of availability on most Saturdays from May to October,

You really run on 100% ?

I had not appreciated you were quite as busy as all that.


I had considered covering them when I did the three phase loco
developement in TR but decided it was a bit too much of a digression as
its not as if the model is something on offer or of interest to anyone
else. That SO use would have been a key point to make.


--
Nick

[Andy Bunburry]

Post by Mike Cawood, HND BIT
Presumably they will have to hire/lease a dmu.
Or failing that, upset their customers by not providing a service
(nothing new here!).
Regards Mike.

what kind of dmu, from who? who else has route AND traction knowledge to
allow this to happen, let alone a spare 125mph dmu for weekday use that is
route-cleared? I cannot imagine the case being other than if a 222 goes
u/s, so does its diagram till it is mended
AB

[John Turner]

Post by Andy Bunburry
what kind of dmu, from who? who else has route AND traction knowledge to
allow this to happen, let alone a spare 125mph dmu for weekday use that is
route-cleared? I cannot imagine the case being other than if a 222 goes
u/s, so does its diagram till it is mended

Hull Trains are part of 'first group' so would a FGW HST be out of the
question? I'm not saying it would, but it wouldn't be a total
impossibility.

John.

[Barry Salter]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:11:08 +0100, "John Turner"

Post by John Turner

Post by Andy Bunburry
what kind of dmu, from who? who else has route AND traction knowledge to
allow this to happen, let alone a spare 125mph dmu for weekday use that is
route-cleared? I cannot imagine the case being other than if a 222 goes
u/s, so does its diagram till it is mended

Hull Trains are part of 'first group' so would a FGW HST be out of the
question? I'm not saying it would, but it wouldn't be a total
impossibility.

Almost certainly out of the question, as:

1) HT crews don't sign HSTs
2) fGW crews don't sign Kings Cross to Hull
3) I'd guess that very few, if any, fGW crews sign Old Oak to the Cross
4) HSTs certainly aren't on HT's "Specified Equipment List"
5) Lack of spare fGW HSTs
6) Lack of paths between OO and KGX

A much more likely occurrence would be to ask GNER and Northern to take
their passengers as it's significantly easier, not to mention cheaper,
all round...

Cheers,

Barry

[Cod Roe]

Post by John Salmon
Surely they can't be expecting to maintain 100%
availability all week every week? What happens when one is out of service?

I am not sure about the Pioneers but Bombardier maintain all the
Voyagers so it wouldn't surprise me if this is the case for the
Pioneers. If this is the case Hull Trains may well have a maintenance
contract that guarantees this availability and in the event of
cancellations due to unserviceable stock will get compensated, possible
with more than they would make running the service.

Given that they are DEMU that can run with one car out then maybe they
are very confident. Of course you can have problems with doors blowing
off on Bombardier units and have to withdraw the whole fleet...

Cod

[Rich Mackin]

Post by John Salmon
Surely they can't be expecting to maintain 100%
availability all week every week? What happens when one is out of service?

I am not sure about the Pioneers but Bombardier maintain all the Voyagers
so it wouldn't surprise me if this is the case for the Pioneers. If this
is the case Hull Trains may well have a maintenance contract that
guarantees this availability and in the event of cancellations due to
unserviceable stock will get compensated, possible with more than they
would make running the service.

As with the Voyagers, maintenance of the 222/1s is sub-contracted to
Bombardier.

Given that they are DEMU that can run with one car out then maybe they are
very confident. Of course you can have problems with doors blowing off on
Bombardier units and have to withdraw the whole fleet...

The recent door problem only affected 220s and 221s.

[Darren]

Post by John Salmon
What happens when one is out of service?

The same as One are doing at the moment (they are needing 100% of their
DMUs every weekday) and just cancel services when a unit needs
maintenance....because no one would ever guess that maintenance would be
required before releasing the "spare" units to ATW

[David Jackman]

Post by John Salmon
Hull Trains' Class 170's - all 12 coaches in a single train - headed
off to Scotland on Sunday, leaving the new increased HT service in the
hands of the four Class 222 "Pioneer" sets. On weekdays between 12.10
and 12.45, all four trains have to be in service simultaneously if the
advertised timetable is to be maintained. Surely they can't be
expecting to maintain 100% availability all week every week? What
happens when one is out of service?

Presumably Plan B is to terminate the 12.10 from Kings Cross at Doncaster
and start the 12.01 from Hull from Doncaster. That's not the end of the
world (though obviously not ideal). The unit off the 10.36 from Kings
Cross seems to finish at Hull (13.21) and is not then needed until the
12.01 from Hull the following day so there is plenty of potential time for
planned work.

Is this a case of bidding for paths on the expectation that 3 out of four
units would be needed and then being allocated paths which need everything?

[Jonathan Morton]

Post by David Jackman
Presumably Plan B is to terminate the 12.10 from Kings Cross at Doncaster
and start the 12.01 from Hull from Doncaster. That's not the end of the
world (though obviously not ideal).

It's fine if you're called "Doncaster Trains", I suppose.

Regards

Jonathan

[John Salmon]

Post by David Jackman
Presumably Plan B is to terminate the 12.10 from Kings Cross at Doncaster
and start the 12.01 from Hull from Doncaster. That's not the end of the
world (though obviously not ideal). The unit off the 10.36 from Kings
Cross seems to finish at Hull (13.21) and is not then needed until the
12.01 from Hull the following day so there is plenty of potential time for
planned work.

The unit from yesterday's 10.36 from King's Cross (222102) worked today's
08.12 from Hull - but as it seems there are three units at Hull overnight, I
suppose they can be sent out in any order the following day. If one of the
three is not ready, I suppose at a push the fourth set, which forms the
first arrival in Hull (10.04) could go out again at 10.12.

[John Turner]

Post by John Salmon
The unit from yesterday's 10.36 from King's Cross (222102) worked today's
08.12 from Hull - but as it seems there are three units at Hull overnight, I
suppose they can be sent out in any order the following day. If one of the
three is not ready, I suppose at a push the fourth set, which forms the
first arrival in Hull (10.04) could go out again at 10.12.

One train is diagrammed to be in Hull overnight, one in London and two at
Crofton for servicing.

John.

[Chris Tolley]

Post by John Turner
One train is diagrammed to be in Hull overnight, one in London and two at
Crofton for servicing.

Crofton?

[Andy Bunburry]

Post by Chris Tolley

Post by John Turner
One train is diagrammed to be in Hull overnight, one in London and two at
Crofton for servicing.

Crofton?

the Bombardier place where 220/221/222 were/are tested etc before
delivery.... it services HT's 222s and some VXC trains go there overnight
too. MML?

AB

[percy]

Post by David Jackman
Presumably Plan B is to terminate the 12.10 from Kings Cross at Doncaster
and start the 12.01 from Hull from Doncaster. That's not the end of the
world (though obviously not ideal). The unit off the 10.36 from Kings
Cross seems to finish at Hull (13.21) and is not then needed until the
12.01 from Hull the following day so there is plenty of potential time for
planned work.

Or plenty of potential time after 1321 for a seventh service to and from
London, including a rush hour northwards departure about 1730 - 1800 .......
something very necessary in my opinion to make the service more
business-user attractive ....... well I'd use it anyway (-:

[Andy Bunburry]

Post by percy
Or plenty of potential time after 1321 for a seventh service to and from
London, including a rush hour northwards departure about 1730 - 1800 .......
something very necessary in my opinion to make the service more

and not a cat's chance in hell of a path being available..... even the
sixth service is only approved on a six month trial basis.

AB

[percy]

Post by Andy Bunburry

Post by percy
Or plenty of potential time after 1321 for a seventh service to and from
London, including a rush hour northwards departure about 1730 - 1800 .......
something very necessary in my opinion to make the service more

and not a cat's chance in hell of a path being available..... even the
sixth service is only approved on a six month trial basis.

which presumably means that Mr Yeowart's Grand Central plans wouldn't get
rush hour paths either (if they get paths at all) .......

[Andy Bunburry]

Post by percy

Post by Andy Bunburry

Post by percy
Or plenty of potential time after 1321 for a seventh service to and from
London, including a rush hour northwards departure about 1730 - 1800 .......
something very necessary in my opinion to make the service more

and not a cat's chance in hell of a path being available..... even the
sixth service is only approved on a six month trial basis.

which presumably means that Mr Yeowart's Grand Central plans wouldn't get
rush hour paths either (if they get paths at all) .......

precisely, HT has been striving for ages for these present paths, and if
any more were available they would have got them!

AB

[Philip Hardy]

Post by percy
Or plenty of potential time after 1321 for a seventh service to and from
London, including a rush hour northwards departure about 1730 - 1800 .......
something very necessary in my opinion to make the service more

Even if HT could get a path GNER's Northbound Hull Executive departs The
Cross at 17:20. Would there really be any sense in HT sending another
service that way 10 minutes later?

Ok GNER's service may not be any good for people with HT only tickets
but an AP Business Saver (RTN portion of which is valid on the 17:20)
isn't all that more expensive than a HT only Saver. Certainly not a
price difference that would bother the average business user anyway.

Anyway, Hull now has 7 trains each way per day. Almost a 2 hourly
service in the day and a hourly service in the peaks. Up from only 1
each way 5 years ago. One of the best of the very few good things to
come out of privatisation.

Philip.

[John Turner]

Post by Philip Hardy
Even if HT could get a path GNER's Northbound Hull Executive departs The
Cross at 17:20. Would there really be any sense in HT sending another
service that way 10 minutes later?

Agreed, but there might be some justification for a significantly later
departure from the Cross, but unfortunately with the main line into Hull
closing around 11.00pm this couldn't be much later than 20.30.

How nice it would be if one could do a show in London and still get back
home, but that would involve a 10.30pm departure from the capital.

John.

[Baz L]

Post by John Turner
Agreed, but there might be some justification for a significantly later
departure from the Cross, but unfortunately with the main line into Hull
closing around 11.00pm this couldn't be much later than 20.30.
How nice it would be if one could do a show in London and still get back
home, but that would involve a 10.30pm departure from the capital.

Interesting you mention about the line into Hull closing around 11,
this seems to be a legacy from the end of the 80's when it was decided
there would no longer be late services into/out of Hull, yet Sunday is
(and was) the exception because of the later signal-box shift finishes.

Wonder if there would be any consideration given to later weekday
opening of the Hull line boxes and any chance of a later train out of
London to Hull.

[John Turner]

Post by Baz L
Wonder if there would be any consideration given to later weekday
opening of the Hull line boxes and any chance of a later train out of
London to Hull.

With the increase in rail-borne imported coal traffic using Hull Docks it
has recently been muted that the line from Hessle Road Jc to the docks
should have double track reinstated and that the main line into Hull should
resume 24 hour operation.

Wonder if either will ever happen?

John.

[Baz L]

Post by John Turner
With the increase in rail-borne imported coal traffic using Hull Docks it
has recently been muted that the line from Hessle Road Jc to the docks
should have double track reinstated and that the main line into Hull should
resume 24 hour operation.
Wonder if either will ever happen?
John.

We can but hope! Maybe the Leeds & Doncaster 'flyer' services (around
3am) will return should they do?? Actually I rather doubt that, we
don't have the newspaper trains anymore do we.

Would be good to get a later train or two into the City though,
especially from Doncaster for people coming back from London (even if
there isn't a path for HT right through).

[John Turner]

Post by Baz L
Would be good to get a later train or two into the City though,
especially from Doncaster for people coming back from London (even if
there isn't a path for HT right through).

What time is the last train out of Kings + that goes at least as far as
Doncaster?

John.

[Stevie D]

Post by John Turner
What time is the last train out of Kings + that goes at least as far as
Doncaster?

Currently 2200 and 2330. I believe that GNER will be "rationalising"
this - to whit, canceling the 2200 to Newcastle, and moving the 2330
to Leeds an hour earlier, making the last departure 2230.

[Baz L]

Post by Stevie D
Currently 2200 and 2330. I believe that GNER will be "rationalising"
this - to whit, canceling the 2200 to Newcastle, and moving the 2330
to Leeds an hour earlier, making the last departure 2230.

Have you any idea why they're doing this, is it pressure from Network
Rail? Are passenger numbers pretty low for both these trains? If the
2200 Newcastle train is withdrawn, will there be a connection at say
Leeds for Newcastle (maybe one of the TPE Airport services running
through to Newcastle instead of York)?

[Mark Morton]

Post by Baz L

Post by Stevie D
Currently 2200 and 2330. I believe that GNER will be "rationalising"
this - to whit, canceling the 2200 to Newcastle, and moving the 2330
to Leeds an hour earlier, making the last departure 2230.

Have you any idea why they're doing this, is it pressure from Network
Rail?

Yes, so they can get hands on the track earlier, according to a posting
here last week.

Post by Baz L
Are passenger numbers pretty low for both these trains?

Last time I travelled on the 2330 is was fairly busy until Peterborough
and then quieter after that, IIRC.

Post by Baz L
If the
2200 Newcastle train is withdrawn, will there be a connection at say
Leeds for Newcastle (maybe one of the TPE Airport services running
through to Newcastle instead of York)?

Unless TPX change their timetables there won't be. A 2230 KX-Leeds
would get into Leeds around 0100, but which time the late night TPX to
Newcastle is near its destination.

I was pleased to see that GNER have amended the timings for the 2000
Glasgow-Doncaster in the new timetable. It's stopped sitting at
Newcastle for 25 minutes and now gets into York in plenty of time for
the 0026 TPX to Manchester Airport. Before, it was just doable as there
was plenty of recovery time between Darlington and York, but very tight
if there was a delay (as there was when I last did the journey).

[Ross]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:01:49 +0100, John Turner wrote in

Post by John Turner

Post by Baz L
Would be good to get a later train or two into the City though,
especially from Doncaster for people coming back from London (even if
there isn't a path for HT right through).

What time is the last train out of Kings + that goes at least as far as
Doncaster?

23:30 Leeds, Doncaster arr 01:38, assuming JourneyPlan is correct.

[Neil Sunderland]

Post by Ross
assuming JourneyPlan is correct.

If the 10.01 Barnstaple-Exeter Central (M-F) calls at Morchard Road at
10.37, then it's up-to-date.

If you don't have a 10.01, then it's about three Wessex draft
timetables old!

[Ross]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:52:58 +0100, Neil Sunderland wrote in

Post by Neil Sunderland

Post by Ross
assuming JourneyPlan is correct.

If the 10.01 Barnstaple-Exeter Central (M-F) calls at Morchard Road at
10.37, then it's up-to-date.

2B08.

Mind, being as I only downloaded the thing yesterday [1], there's no
reason for it not to be up-to-date.


[1] Having forgotten that I'd bought a 12-month package for my PDA
last winter.

[Philip Hardy]

Post by David Jackman
Presumably Plan B is to terminate the 12.10 from Kings Cross at Doncaster
and start the 12.01 from Hull from Doncaster. That's not the end of the
world (though obviously not ideal).

For a company called Hull Trains I would say that's totally
unsatisfactory. Especially given that over 90%(*) of thier start of
finish thier journeys at Selby, Howden, Brough and Hull.

Philip.

* I beleive the figure recently quoted in a magazine (can't remember
which) was 92%

[John Salmon]

Post by Philip Hardy
Especially given that over 90%(*) of thier start of
finish thier journeys at Selby, Howden, Brough and Hull.

From this week, most Hull Trains have started to call at Retford, which
would have been welcome if the 1œ to 2-hour gaps in the service had been
plugged. Unfortunately, in the middle of the day departures from King's
Cross to Retford are at 10.05, 10.36, 12.05, 12.10, 13.30, 13.34 and
15.05... a situation which would obviously not have arisen before
fragmentation of the railway. Still, perhaps the competition will bring
some benefits - or am I being overly optimistic?

[Cod Roe]

Post by John Salmon
Hull Trains' Class 170's - all 12 coaches in a single train - headed off to
Scotland on Sunday, leaving the new increased HT service in the hands of the
four Class 222 "Pioneer" sets. On weekdays between 12.10 and 12.45, all
four trains have to be in service simultaneously if the advertised timetable
is to be maintained. Surely they can't be expecting to maintain 100%
availability all week every week? What happens when one is out of service?

This thread on another discussion forumn provides some interesting
information:

http://www.chumster.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85&mforum=railwaymovement

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Cod Roe

Post by John Salmon
Surely they can't be expecting to maintain 100%
availability all week every week? What happens when one is out of service?

This thread on another discussion forumn provides some interesting
http://www.chumster.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85&mforum=railwaymovement

Intereesting that the contingency plan is to cancel the 12:01 from
Hull, starting it from Doncaster. Next through train 15:33.

You might think they would maintain the service at Hull
and curtail it further south since they are _Hull_ Trains ....

Charlie

[Peter Masson]

Post by Charlie Hulme
Intereesting that the contingency plan is to cancel the 12:01 from
Hull, starting it from Doncaster. Next through train 15:33.
You might think they would maintain the service at Hull
and curtail it further south since they are _Hull_ Trains ....

Passengers from Hull and Brough, if they haven't arrived at teh last minute
for the 1201, could be forwarded to Doncaster, to pick up the HT service
there, on the 1155 Northern service from Hull. Presumably HT would have to
lay on a bus (or taxis) from Howden and Selby.

Peter