Wrong route - isn't driver supposed to notice?

[Clive Page]

Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.

I was under the impression that the train driver is supposed to know the
route, and therefore to notice a wrong one, and stop before going the
wrong way. Or is it that the tracks out of Paddington are so confusing
and so badly signalled that drivers are still regularly confused? I
thought that was supposed to have been fixed after the crash.

The incident yesterday delayed our journey by about 25 minutes (not
quite enough, of course, to get us any compensation).

I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very
limited number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no
freepost address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone
number.

[Guy Gorton]

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.

Doubtless the driver noticed when he did not get the diverging signal
at the junction but there is nothing he can do about it except inform
control and continue until told to stop.
What interests me is that the train was not re-routed on the Greenford
branch - probably route knowledge of a Chiltern driver does not cover
that branch.

Post by Clive Page
I was under the impression that the train driver is supposed to know the
route, and therefore to notice a wrong one, and stop before going the
wrong way. Or is it that the tracks out of Paddington are so confusing
and so badly signalled that drivers are still regularly confused? I
thought that was supposed to have been fixed after the crash.
The incident yesterday delayed our journey by about 25 minutes (not
quite enough, of course, to get us any compensation).

I despair of the pervasiveness of the compensation culture.

Post by Clive Page
I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very
limited number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no
freepost address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone
number.

I doubt if there is any other TOC that is so customer-friendly -
certainly not customer-hostile - or in deference to a recent thread
"passenger-hostile".

Guy Gorton

[Graham Murray]

Post by Guy Gorton
Doubtless the driver noticed when he did not get the diverging signal
at the junction but there is nothing he can do about it except inform
control and continue until told to stop.

I thought that the correct procedure was to stop at the signal
'offering' the incorrect route, or as close past it as possible if not
possible to stop at it, and contact the signaller.

[Barry Salter]

Post by Guy Gorton
What interests me is that the train was not re-routed on the Greenford
branch - probably route knowledge of a Chiltern driver does not cover
that branch.

I *think* the drivers that sign Paddington SHOULD sign both the New
North Main Line AND the Greenford Branch, though keeping their route
knowledge current requires the co-operation of the signallers to send
them via Greenford.

Cheers,

Barry

[tim.....]

Post by Guy Gorton

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.

Doubtless the driver noticed when he did not get the diverging signal
at the junction but there is nothing he can do about it except inform
control and continue until told to stop.
What interests me is that the train was not re-routed on the Greenford
branch - probably route knowledge of a Chiltern driver does not cover
that branch.

I may be out of date, but AIUI this particular route (from the Greenford S
to W, assuming that's what you are referring to) sees little normal traffic
and is locked out of use when not actually needed.

BICBW

tim

[Guy Gorton]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:07:17 +0100, "tim....."

Post by tim.....

Post by Guy Gorton

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.

Doubtless the driver noticed when he did not get the diverging signal
at the junction but there is nothing he can do about it except inform
control and continue until told to stop.
What interests me is that the train was not re-routed on the Greenford
branch - probably route knowledge of a Chiltern driver does not cover
that branch.

I may be out of date, but AIUI this particular route (from the Greenford S
to W, assuming that's what you are referring to) sees little normal traffic
and is locked out of use when not actually needed.
BICBW
tim

AIUI it is used daily by a binliner and has certainly been used
recently by Virgin's BlockadeBusters (or whatever they are called.)

Guy Gorton

[C. U. Jimmy]

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.
I was under the impression that the train driver is supposed to know the
route, and therefore to notice a wrong one, and stop before going the
wrong way. Or is it that the tracks out of Paddington are so confusing
and so badly signalled that drivers are still regularly confused? I
thought that was supposed to have been fixed after the crash.
The incident yesterday delayed our journey by about 25 minutes (not quite
enough, of course, to get us any compensation).
I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very limited
number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no freepost
address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone number.
--

Im no expert but I would have thought that the driver knows the route.
Perhaps at the point when he contacted the signal box he was directed to a
"safe" section of track out of the way of other trains to cause minimal
disruption to them?

McKev

[turbo]

Post by Clive Page
I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very limited
number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no freepost
address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone number.

Try this link http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/79-railcomp2.pdf
and scroll down to page 11 where 01296 332114 is quoted.

[Barry Salter]

Post by turbo

Post by Clive Page
I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very limited
number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no freepost
address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone number.

Try this link http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/79-railcomp2.pdf
and scroll down to page 11 where 01296 332114 is quoted.

Chiltern have recently undergone a spot of "office juggling", and I
believe Customer Relations have moved from Western House in Aylesbury to
the ICC in Banbury.

Alternatively, pick up a Comments form at a Chiltern station and drop it
in to a Ticket Office, and they'll forward it on to Customer Relations
for you.

Cheers,

Barry

[Walter Mann]

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.
I was under the impression that the train driver is supposed to know the
route, and therefore to notice a wrong one, and stop before going the
wrong way.

I'm not sure what point you're making..

If your estimate of three miles is accurate, that suggests you stopped very
close to the junction to the High Wycombe line.. The driver wouldn't have
had any clue before that protecting signal, and its associated route
indicator, that there was going to be any error in setting the route.. so
the fact that you did stop there indicates that the driver was, indeed, in
full possession of his or her faculties and can be faulted only for
possessing no crystal ball. [Only if your driver had carried on regardless
to Reading would you have grounds for suspicion..]'

The only thing that surprises me is that you returned "all the way" to
Paddington before starting off again. I can't offer any obvious explanation
for that; my normal experience would be that if the train had passed the
signal you'd reverse back behind it, if it hadn't you'd simply wait for the
route to be reset.. Doubtless there was a reason for the long reversal,
given that it would have been so much more complicated an operation.

[John Salmon]

Post by Walter Mann

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.
I was under the impression that the train driver is supposed to know the
route, and therefore to notice a wrong one, and stop before going the
wrong way.

I'm not sure what point you're making..
If your estimate of three miles is accurate, that suggests you stopped very
close to the junction to the High Wycombe line.. The driver wouldn't have
had any clue before that protecting signal, and its associated route
indicator, that there was going to be any error in setting the route.. so
the fact that you did stop there indicates that the driver was, indeed, in
full possession of his or her faculties and can be faulted only for
possessing no crystal ball. [Only if your driver had carried on regardless
to Reading would you have grounds for suspicion..]'
The only thing that surprises me is that you returned "all the way" to
Paddington before starting off again. I can't offer any obvious explanation
for that; my normal experience would be that if the train had passed the
signal you'd reverse back behind it, if it hadn't you'd simply wait for the
route to be reset.. Doubtless there was a reason for the long reversal,
given that it would have been so much more complicated an operation.

It was reported on Gensheet that the train was sent out on line 3 whereas it
should have been on line 4.

[Walter Mann]

Post by John Salmon

Post by Walter Mann

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route.

If your estimate of three miles is accurate, that suggests you stopped very
close to the junction to the High Wycombe line.. The driver wouldn't have
had any clue before that protecting signal, and its associated route
indicator, that there was going to be any error in setting the route..

It was reported on Gensheet that the train was sent out on line 3 whereas
it should have been on line 4.

Can you expand on that? On the face of it that surely wouldn't make any
difference.. By Ladbroke Grove the train would have been on the Down Relief,
and thereafter routed either to High Wycombe or Reading at the relevant
junction.. Are you implying that Line 4 somehow inevitably implies the one
route, and Line 3 inevetably the other - because I don't see how that could
possibly work?

[John Salmon]

Post by Walter Mann

Post by John Salmon

Post by Walter Mann

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route.

If your estimate of three miles is accurate, that suggests you stopped very
close to the junction to the High Wycombe line.. The driver wouldn't have
had any clue before that protecting signal, and its associated route
indicator, that there was going to be any error in setting the route..

It was reported on Gensheet that the train was sent out on line 3 whereas
it should have been on line 4.

Can you expand on that? On the face of it that surely wouldn't make any
difference.. By Ladbroke Grove the train would have been on the Down
Relief, and thereafter routed either to High Wycombe or Reading at the
relevant junction.. Are you implying that Line 4 somehow inevitably
implies the one route, and Line 3 inevetably the other - because I don't
see how that could possibly work?

The message wasn't entirely clear, and I'm also not clear whether the
right-hand crossover at Ladbroke Grove which might enable a move from line 3
to the Down Relief is still out of use, as shown in Quail. If it is still
out of use, any down train on line 3 after the crossovers near Royal Oak
can't get across to the Down Relief until after Southall. Indeed, Quail
shows most of line 3 as being the *only* one of the six numbered lines which
is not available to down trains, implying that a down train shouldn't be on
line 3 at all after Royal Oak. Does that help? I'm still a bit confused
myself...

[Railsigns.co.uk]

Post by John Salmon
The message wasn't entirely clear, and I'm also not clear whether the
right-hand crossover at Ladbroke Grove which might enable a move
from line 3 to the Down Relief is still out of use, as shown in Quail.   If
it is still out of use, any down train on line 3 after the crossovers near
Royal Oak can't get across to the Down Relief until after Southall.
Indeed, Quail shows most of line 3 as being the *only* one of the six
numbered lines which is not available to down trains, implying that a
down train shouldn't be on line 3 at all after Royal Oak.

I believe the layout approaching Paddington was restored to full use
in February 2006, meaning Lines 2 and 3 can be used bi-directionally
again. The latest edition of Quail Book 3 was published in 2005, so is
now out of date.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Railway Signs and Signals of Great Britain:
<http://www.railsigns.co.uk/>

[Peter Masson]

Post by Walter Mann
If your estimate of three miles is accurate, that suggests you stopped very
close to the junction to the High Wycombe line.. The driver wouldn't have
had any clue before that protecting signal, and its associated route
indicator, that there was going to be any error in setting the route.. so
the fact that you did stop there indicates that the driver was, indeed, in
full possession of his or her faculties and can be faulted only for
possessing no crystal ball. [Only if your driver had carried on regardless
to Reading would you have grounds for suspicion..]'

Presumably the misrouting occurred at Old Oak Common West Junction. AIUI the
junction signal is approach controlled from red for the West Ruislip route.
If the driver received greens for the GWML he should have had good warning
of the misrouting. However, if the signal cleared from red without the
feather at about the time he was expecting the signal to clear with the
feather the time for him to respond to the misrouting would have been very
short and I'm not surprised that he didn't stop in time.

Where speeds for the two routes are the same or nearly so the first warning
of the misrouting can come far too late to stop at teh junction signal.

At Bickley Junction the permitted speed towards Chatham is 60 mph, and over
the down Tonbridge Loop was (in 1972) 50 mph. The last time I saw the Golden
Arrow (it may even have been on its last day of operation) it was misrouted
towards Chatham, but the first the driver would have known was when he saw
the junction signal at green without rather than with the feather. The train
stopped at a signal beyond the junction signal and the driver phoned the
signaller. After a bit of delay the train proceeded, presumably diverted via
Maidstone East or Bat & Ball. Fortunately the driver (and guard) knew the
route.

Peter

[Ganesh Sittampalam]

Post by Peter Masson
Presumably the misrouting occurred at Old Oak Common West Junction. AIUI the
junction signal is approach controlled from red for the West Ruislip route.
If the driver received greens for the GWML he should have had good warning
of the misrouting. However, if the signal cleared from red without the
feather at about the time he was expecting the signal to clear with the
feather the time for him to respond to the misrouting would have been very
short and I'm not surprised that he didn't stop in time.

I don't quite follow this; if the approach control was from red, then
surely the
driver would have been able to stop at the red signal (in case it
didn't
clear). I can understand him initially reacting to the green before
realising
that the feather was missing, but surely that would still leave at
least
some change of stopping before the signal?

Ganesh

[Peter Masson]

Post by Peter Masson
Presumably the misrouting occurred at Old Oak Common West Junction. AIUI the
junction signal is approach controlled from red for the West Ruislip route.
If the driver received greens for the GWML he should have had good warning
of the misrouting. However, if the signal cleared from red without the
feather at about the time he was expecting the signal to clear with the
feather the time for him to respond to the misrouting would have been very
short and I'm not surprised that he didn't stop in time.

I don't quite follow this; if the approach control was from red, then
surely the
driver would have been able to stop at the red signal (in case it
didn't
clear). I can understand him initially reacting to the green before
realising
that the feather was missing, but surely that would still leave at
least
some change of stopping before the signal?

He's braking to stop at a red. He's expecting it to clear to green and
feather. It clears, but to green without the feather. Driver releases brakes
and applies power, then realises feather is missing. But too late to stop at
the signal.

Peter

[WZR]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Walter Mann
If your estimate of three miles is accurate, that suggests you stopped

very

Post by Walter Mann
close to the junction to the High Wycombe line.. The driver wouldn't have
had any clue before that protecting signal, and its associated route
indicator, that there was going to be any error in setting the route.. so
the fact that you did stop there indicates that the driver was, indeed, in
full possession of his or her faculties and can be faulted only for
possessing no crystal ball. [Only if your driver had carried on regardless
to Reading would you have grounds for suspicion..]'

Presumably the misrouting occurred at Old Oak Common West Junction. AIUI the
junction signal is approach controlled from red for the West Ruislip route.
If the driver received greens for the GWML he should have had good warning
of the misrouting. However, if the signal cleared from red without the
feather at about the time he was expecting the signal to clear with the
feather the time for him to respond to the misrouting would have been very
short and I'm not surprised that he didn't stop in time.

Well I am!

If that scenario is correct that suggests that the train would not have been
able to stop at the signal if it had not cleared at all. If that is the
case it would appear that driver was anticipating the signal's clearance,
which is Rather Naughty[TM]. See Colwich collision for details.

Post by Peter Masson
Where speeds for the two routes are the same or nearly so the first warning
of the misrouting can come far too late to stop at teh junction signal.

Agreed, but then MAR (Approach control from Red) is inappropriate for these
cases as it is far too restrictive.

[Peter Masson]

Post by WZR
If that scenario is correct that suggests that the train would not have been
able to stop at the signal if it had not cleared at all. If that is the
case it would appear that driver was anticipating the signal's clearance,
which is Rather Naughty[TM]. See Colwich collision for details.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that the train is on the
correct braking curve (assuming professional driving standards) to stop at
the red. Driver observes that the signal clears to a proceed aspect, so he
releases the brakes and applies power. Only then does he realise that the
feather has not come on.

However, it now seems from other posts that the misrouting was further back,
at Royal Oak. This suggests a less-than-perfect knowledge of the layout, if
there's no access from No. 3 line west of Royal Oak to the Park Royal line,
or even to the Greenford Loop. It also makes sense of the report that, from
wherever it did stop, that it had to reverse back to Paddington.

Peter

[t***@googlemail.com]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by WZR
If that scenario is correct that suggests that the train would not have

been

Post by WZR
able to stop at the signal if it had not cleared at all.  If that is the
case it would appear that driver was anticipating the signal's clearance,
which is Rather Naughty[TM].  See Colwich collision for details.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that the train is on the
correct braking curve (assuming professional driving standards) to stop at
the red. Driver observes that the signal clears to a proceed aspect, so he
releases the brakes and applies power. Only then does he realise that the
feather has not come on.
However, it now seems from other posts that the misrouting was further back,
at Royal Oak. This suggests a less-than-perfect knowledge of the layout, if
there's no access from No. 3 line west of Royal Oak to the Park Royal line,
or even to the Greenford Loop. It also makes sense of the report that, from
wherever it did stop, that it had to reverse back to Paddington.
Peter

Just to add to this - but probably doesn't apply in this actual case.
There are some sections of route (Manchester Piccadilly - Slade Lane
etc.) where track spacing means a driver cannot leave the cab to make
a telephone call. (there was a fatality when I driver was hit by
another train because there wasn't sufficient room for him to be on
the telephone.) I assume the phoes are there for a serious emergency
only, and that will become redundant when GSM-R is rolled out. So (any
drivers from Manchester want to confirm this?) if a train leaving
manchester was signalled onto the Styal line when it should be
Stockport, or vice-versa, the train would have to continue to a safe
place to make the call. I guess this may apply elsewhere too?

Any drivers aware of other places where they wouldn't stop immediately
to make a call about a wrong route being set? (In a tunnel perhaps?)

Tony

[e***@aol.com]

Post by t***@googlemail.com
Just to add to this - but probably doesn't apply in this actual case.
There are some sections of route (Manchester Piccadilly - Slade Lane
etc.) where track spacing means a driver cannot leave the cab to make
a telephone call. (there was a fatality when I driver was hit by
another train because there wasn't sufficient room for him to be on
the telephone.) I assume the phoes are there for a serious emergency
only, and that will become redundant when GSM-R is rolled out. So (any
drivers from Manchester want to confirm this?) if a train leaving
manchester was signalled onto the Styal line when it should be
Stockport, or vice-versa, the train would have to continue to a safe
place to make the call. I guess this may apply elsewhere too?
Any drivers aware of other places where they wouldn't stop immediately
to make a call about a wrong route being set? (In a tunnel perhaps?)
Tony-

Come to a stand at the routing signal and use the NRN radio or use
their moblie phone to contact the box depending on TOC/FOC moblie
phone policy.

[Mario Lanza]

Post by Clive Page
I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very
limited number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no
freepost address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone
number.
--
Clive Page

0845 numbers are charged at local rate.

[heavyhorses]

Post by Mario Lanza

Post by Clive Page
I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very
limited number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no
freepost address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone
number.
--
Clive Page

0845 numbers are charged at local rate.

Yes but the point is they ARE charged and do not come out of bundled minutes
or free land line call deals whith most Telco's.
So to a lot of people 01296 332114 would be a free call and 0845 would not.

[Chris Tolley]

Post by heavyhorses

Post by Mario Lanza
0845 numbers are charged at local rate.

Yes but the point is they ARE charged and do not come out of bundled minutes
or free land line call deals whith most Telco's.
So to a lot of people 01296 332114 would be a free call and 0845 would not.

Or more accurately one that they have paid for in advance rather than
one they pay for at the time.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Chris Tolley
Or more accurately one that they have paid for in advance rather than
one they pay for at the time.

True, but for those of us on contracts this is usually effectively at
a flat rate - because I took the cheapest contract at the time on
which I could get unlimited free Internet access, I have more minutes
and texts per month than I am ever likely to use. Thus, an 0845
number presents a cost over and above that that would not otherwise be
incurred.

Neil

[Guy Gorton]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:46:54 +0100, "heavyhorses"

Post by heavyhorses

Post by Mario Lanza

Post by Clive Page
I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very
limited number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no
freepost address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone
number.
--
Clive Page

0845 numbers are charged at local rate.

Yes but the point is they ARE charged and do not come out of bundled minutes
or free land line call deals whith most Telco's.
So to a lot of people 01296 332114 would be a free call and 0845 would not.

Have you tried http://www.saynoto0870.com/numbersearch.php ?
It equates 0845 6005 165 with 01296 332147.
But to grumble about the trivial cost of a local call seems to be
meanness on an epic scale.

Guy Gorton

[Clive Page]

Post by Guy Gorton
Have you tried http://www.saynoto0870.com/numbersearch.php ?
It equates 0845 6005 165 with 01296 332147.

I do know about this excellent site, but did not try it for Chiltern
Railways. I sent them a complaint by their awful webmail system.

Post by Guy Gorton
But to grumble about the trivial cost of a local call seems to be
meanness on an epic scale.

I disagree. Companies which provide an 0800 number always answer
promptly, in my experience, because they are paying for the call, and if
many thousands of us use it, the cost mounts up. Those using premium
rate calls (there is no such thing as a local call any more) have an
incentive to get you into a call centre maze with music on hold for
hours. There are no flat-rate ways of calling 0845 numbers, as far as I
know: you always pay by the minute. Companies who value their customers
simply don't use them.

[CD]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 04:08:39 -0700 (PDT), Mario Lanza

Post by Mario Lanza

Post by Clive Page
I notice that Chiltern Railways has all the hallmarks of a
customer-hostile company: no email address for complaints anywhere on
their website (just an annoying web-form which only allows a very
limited number of characters to be entered in the comment field), no
freepost address for complaints, and only an expensive (0845) telephone
number.
--
Clive Page

0845 numbers are charged at local rate.

There has been no distinction between local & national calls since
2000 & as the other poster said 0845 is not included in any inclusive
call plans, BT free evening & weekend calls for instance.
To add insult to injury not only would you be paying to complain, but
they will get a cut of the revenue, so you'd be paying them to
complain.
The cost of calling 0845 is not massive (0.5p min evenings, 2p
daytime), but with most firms using them the cost soon adds up
especially if you're stuck on hold.
On principle & cost reasons I refuse to dial these numbers & always
use the geographical alternatives.
Some firms are especially sneaky (Alliance & Leicester for one) by
playing a message telling you to redial the 08** number if they detect
a UK caller ID, 141 fixes this.
The new 03** range of no geographic numbers are included on calling
plans, it will be interesting to see how many firms use them.

Just my 2p worth.

CD

[m***@nildram.co.uk]

Post by CD
The cost of calling 0845 is not massive (0.5p min evenings, 2p
daytime)

It is if you call from a mobile, it can be up to 40p / min.

[Roland Perry]

Post by CD
To add insult to injury not only would you be paying to complain, but
they will get a cut of the revenue, so you'd be paying them to
complain.

The 0.5p a minute (daytime, much less off-peak) possible revenue share
is irrelevant next to the bundled/unbundled issue for these numbers.

[Clive Page]

In message

Post by Mario Lanza
0845 numbers are charged at local rate.

I am afraid that you've been taken in by the propaganda of the telephone
companies. None of then (to my knowledge) makes any distinction any
more between local and national calls, so the term "local rate" is now
meaningless. All four of the telephone companies that I use, which
includes BT, charge more for an 0845 number than for "national rate"
regular number starting with 01, 02, or 03. The 03 number range has
been specially introduced so that companies can use it to divert their
calls where they like without profiteering - responsible bodies such as
the BBC are starting to use them. Chiltern Railways are able to make
money out of customers who might want to send them a complaint by
forcing them to use a premium rate telephone number. I do not know
whether this is because they are merely incompetent, or because they are
passenger-hostile.

[Roland Perry]

Chiltern Railways are able to make money out of customers who might
want to send them a complaint by forcing them to use a premium rate
telephone number. I do not know whether this is because they are
merely incompetent, or because they are passenger-hostile.

They are most likely "behind the times" and originally thought they were
doing the customer a favour (by not using an 0870 number). If they
wanted to make money from callers they'd have switched to 0844 - like so
many people have. 0845 is not a way to get rich, the most they'll be
receiving is 0.5p/minute, which is 30p/hour.

[Barry Salter]

Post by Clive Page
In message

Post by Mario Lanza
0845 numbers are charged at local rate.

I am afraid that you've been taken in by the propaganda of the
telephone companies. None of then (to my knowledge) makes any
distinction any more between local and national calls, so the term
"local rate" is now meaningless. All four of the telephone companies
that I use, which includes BT, charge more for an 0845 number than
for "national rate" regular number starting with 01, 02, or 03.

In the BT Price List, the standard charge for Local NTS numbers is
exactly the same as for Local numbers, ditto for National NTS and
National numbers.

I will, however, admit that hardly anyone actually *pays* the standard
rate any more.

Under the "Unlimited Weekend Calls Plan" (formerly BT Together Option 1):

Geographic calls are 4p a minute from 6am to 6pm Monday to Friday, 1.5p
a minute before 6am and after 6pm and 4p a minute after the first hour
at weekends.

Local NTS calls are charged at 2p a minute from 6am to 6pm, and 0.5p a
minute before 6am and after 6pm.

National NTS calls are charged at 6p a minute from 6am to 6pm, and 1.5p
a minute before 6am and after 6pm.

Post by Clive Page
Chiltern Railways are able to make money out of customers who might
want to send them a complaint by forcing them to use a premium rate
telephone number. I do not know whether this is because they are
merely incompetent, or because they are passenger-hostile.

Having just looked through nationalrail.co.uk, the *ONLY* TOCs that give
Geographic Numbers for Customer Services are Eurostar, Island Line and
Merseyrail.

Of the remainder, most use 0845 numbers, except CrossCountry and First
Scotrail, who use 0870 numbers, and London Midland, who use an 0844
number (charged at g6 rate, 5p a minute at all times, by BT).

Incidentally, the "Station Support" numbers for Trainline (and NXEC, if
memory serves) are 0845 numbers as well, and it's not unusual to be on
hold for 15 minutes or more!

Alternatively, go to a Chiltern station and pick up a Passenger Comments
form (or download it as a PDF from the Chiltern website and print it
out), fill it in, then hand it in at a Chiltern Ticket Office and
they'll forward it to Customer Services for you.

Alternatively, you can send comments by fax to [phone], or
attend one of the "Meet the Manager" sessions (the next of which is at
Warwick Parkway on the 12th of November, between 6:30 and 9am).

Cheers,

Barry

[Roland Perry]

Post by Barry Salter
Of the remainder, most use 0845 numbers,

I think there was a big fuss in Cambridge when FCC introduced 0845, when
WAGN had a local number, and they were in every sense a local company.

Post by Barry Salter
except CrossCountry and First Scotrail, who use 0870 numbers,

Given the demise of 0870 revenue share it's time those numbers were
changed.

Post by Barry Salter
and London Midland, who use an 0844 number (charged at g6 rate, 5p a
minute at all times, by BT).

A new franchise that's apparently keeping up with telco developments.

[Tim Woodall]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:33:41 +0100,

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.

I was on a London Midland train not so long ago that was delayed at
Watford Junction because of being signalled to the wrong platform at
Bushey.

I can't remember the exact message from the driver but it was something
along the lines of "The signalman has given me a signal to the wrong
platform at Bushey which is only long enough for ten carriage trains.
Because health and safety won't allow a twelve carriage train to stop
there I'm now waiting for him to give me the correct signal."

I was quite impressed. TBH, I wasn't even aware that the drivers could
tell where they were going to go. I'd assumed that they'd only be able
to tell once they'd crossed the points (or possibly from very short
range by the way the points were set). Can drivers also tell if the
points are set incorrectly going the other way (In ancient days that
would derail my toy hornby set - will it derail a real train?) or are
signals coupled to the points so an incorrect points setting will
guarantee a red signal futher up the line?

Tim.

[Peter Masson]

Post by Tim Woodall
are
signals coupled to the points so an incorrect points setting will
guarantee a red signal futher up the line?

Yes - unless something has gone wrong with the interlocking.

Peter

[C. U. Jimmy]

Post by Tim Woodall
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:33:41 +0100,

Post by Clive Page
Yesterday I was on the 11:09 Chiltern Railways train from Paddington: it
stopped about three miles out, and then reversed all the way back to
Paddington again, before starting out on the right route. The train
manager blamed a "signalling error" for putting the train on the wrong
route. It is unusual, and refreshing, to have the staff of one company
publicly blame the staff of another for a mistake.

I was on a London Midland train not so long ago that was delayed at
Watford Junction because of being signalled to the wrong platform at
Bushey.
I can't remember the exact message from the driver but it was something
along the lines of "The signalman has given me a signal to the wrong
platform at Bushey which is only long enough for ten carriage trains.
Because health and safety won't allow a twelve carriage train to stop
there I'm now waiting for him to give me the correct signal."
I was quite impressed. TBH, I wasn't even aware that the drivers could
tell where they were going to go. I'd assumed that they'd only be able
to tell once they'd crossed the points (or possibly from very short
range by the way the points were set). Can drivers also tell if the
points are set incorrectly going the other way (In ancient days that
would derail my toy hornby set - will it derail a real train?) or are
signals coupled to the points so an incorrect points setting will
guarantee a red signal futher up the line?

Im fairly sure that it would derail the train but im no expert. Ditto for my
Hornby railway set too and I know that it would definately derail any train
I was playing with in www.railsimulator.com.
(I've lost count of the carriages that I've skewed all over the place on
that game)
McK.

[c***@onetel.com]

I was on an Exeter train in the days when they were hauled by 50's and
west of Basingstoke, just before the lines diverge, the driver clapped
on all the brakes and we shuddered to a halt. I looked out of the
window and he got out of the engine and walked back to the signal,
phoned up the signalman, then returned to the train, remarking to me
on the way that the bloody signalman had put us on the wrong route -
to Winchester, presumably.

[Yokel]

<***@onetel.com> wrote in message news:05d58089-1f13-401a-8b4d-***@y29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
|I was on an Exeter train in the days when they were hauled by 50's and
| west of Basingstoke, just before the lines diverge, the driver clapped
| on all the brakes and we shuddered to a halt. I looked out of the
| window and he got out of the engine and walked back to the signal,
| phoned up the signalman, then returned to the train, remarking to me
| on the way that the bloody signalman had put us on the wrong route -
| to Winchester, presumably.
|

And the good news is that this particular hazard has been removed with the
Basingstoke resignalling. Whether you are on the Down Fast or Down Slow you
now get a "green" for the Winchester route and "flashing yellows" for
Andover. Because the new signalling is four aspect and so you get flashing
yellow and flashing double yellow on the previous two signals, it is now
possible to stand on Basingstoke platform and see what route is set at
Worting Junction. This is a vast improvement on the old system described
above where the driver only found out at the junction signal which route he
had set - by which time it was far too late to stop at the line speed of 90
mph.

We were once told that this could not be done at this junction because the
speed difference between the two routes was not enough, but hurrah! common
sense has reigned even in this day and age. Other similar locations please
copy.

[Peter Masson]

Post by Yokel
And the good news is that this particular hazard has been removed with the
Basingstoke resignalling. Whether you are on the Down Fast or Down Slow you
now get a "green" for the Winchester route and "flashing yellows" for
Andover. Because the new signalling is four aspect and so you get flashing
yellow and flashing double yellow on the previous two signals, it is now
possible to stand on Basingstoke platform and see what route is set at
Worting Junction. This is a vast improvement on the old system described
above where the driver only found out at the junction signal which route he
had set - by which time it was far too late to stop at the line speed of 90
mph.
We were once told that this could not be done at this junction because the
speed difference between the two routes was not enough, but hurrah! common
sense has reigned even in this day and age. Other similar locations please
copy.

Why has it been done this way rather than with Preliminary Routeing
Indicators, which, in one form or another have been fitted at Airport
Junction (Hayes), Fawkham Junction, and were used at Continental Junction
before the CTRL opened. At Worting Junction, IIRC, the permitted speed over
all routes is 90 mph, so flashing yellows are not needed to advise the
driver, when taking the diverging route, to reduce speed to the permitted
speed over the junction. However, flashing single yellow at the signal
before the junction signal, followed by steady single yellow and feather
indicates that the signal beyond the junction may be at danger. At what
point does this clear to green plus feather at Worting?

Peter

[Railsigns.co.uk]

Post by Peter Masson
Why has it been done this way rather than with Preliminary Routeing
Indicators, which, in one form or another have been fitted at Airport
Junction (Hayes), Fawkham Junction, and were used at Continental Junction
before the CTRL opened.

Neither Fawkham Junction nor Continental Junction ever had PRIs.
Places that do have them are:
Airport Junction,
Saltwood Junction,
Shortlands Junction,
Springhead Road Junction,
Coventry,
Birmingham International

==============================================
Railway Signs and Signals of Great Britain:
<http://www.railsigns.co.uk>

[Peter Masson]

Post by Railsigns.co.uk
Neither Fawkham Junction nor Continental Junction ever had PRIs.

I used the phrase 'in one form or another'. Fawkham Junction makes do with
splitting repeater banners which are far enough back to enable a misrouted
train to stop at the junction signal.

Peter

[Railsigns.co.uk]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Railsigns.co.uk
Neither Fawkham Junction nor Continental Junction ever had PRIs.

I used the phrase 'in one form or another'.

Erm, okay, but your use of the term "Preliminary Routeing Indicators"
did sound absolutely specific and unambiguous, particularly as it was
capitalised, so forgive me for thinking you were referring to
Preliminary Routeing Indicators, in one form or another. <g>

Post by Peter Masson
Fawkham Junction makes do with splitting repeater banners which
are far enough back to enable a misrouted train to stop at the
junction signal.

The banner repeaters at Fawkham Junction are only 320 metres in rear
of the junction signal - hardly enough distance in which to stop.

What form of preliminary routeing indicator do you suggest was
provided at Continental Junction?

[Paul Scott]

Post by Yokel

Post by Yokel
We were once told that this could not be done at this junction because the
speed difference between the two routes was not enough, but hurrah! common
sense has reigned even in this day and age. Other similar locations

please

Post by Yokel
copy.

Why has it been done this way rather than with Preliminary Routeing
Indicators, which, in one form or another have been fitted at Airport
Junction (Hayes), Fawkham Junction, and were used at Continental Junction
before the CTRL opened. At Worting Junction, IIRC, the permitted speed over
all routes is 90 mph, so flashing yellows are not needed to advise the
driver, when taking the diverging route, to reduce speed to the permitted
speed over the junction.

Not quite according to a sketch of the resignalling I have Peter. From the
Down Fast (90mph), the Down Southampton is 90mph, but the Down Exeter only
75mph at the diverge, its line speed beyond the flyover rises to 85. The
previous crossover from Down Slow (90mph) to Down Fast is 60mph for its
diverge, of course this move isn't such a common one for passenger trains.

Paul

[Yokel]

"Paul Scott" <***@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:***@bt.com...
|
| "Peter Masson" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message
| news:***@bt.com...
|
| >> We were once told that this could not be done at this junction because
| >> the
| >> speed difference between the two routes was not enough, but hurrah!
| >> common
| >> sense has reigned even in this day and age. Other similar locations
| > please
| >> copy.
| >
| > Why has it been done this way rather than with Preliminary Routeing
| > Indicators, which, in one form or another have been fitted at Airport
| > Junction (Hayes), Fawkham Junction, and were used at Continental
Junction
| > before the CTRL opened. At Worting Junction, IIRC, the permitted speed
| > over
| > all routes is 90 mph, so flashing yellows are not needed to advise the
| > driver, when taking the diverging route, to reduce speed to the
permitted
| > speed over the junction.
|
| Not quite according to a sketch of the resignalling I have Peter. From the
| Down Fast (90mph), the Down Southampton is 90mph, but the Down Exeter only
| 75mph at the diverge, its line speed beyond the flyover rises to 85. The
| previous crossover from Down Slow (90mph) to Down Fast is 60mph for its
| diverge, of course this move isn't such a common one for passenger trains.
|

That's news. So Worting Junction has been "downgraded", as the old
high-speed points allowed pretty much the same speed for either route.
Well, the new pointwork is probably easier and cheaper to maintain than the
old. As every West of England route train calls at Basingstoke anyway, this
arrangement costs very little in time penalty to the passenger service.
AFAIAA, the Down Slow to Down Fast move at Worting Junction is not required
by any passenger train in the Working Timetable and would normally only be
used for a freight train which had been "recessed". If this is the case,
60mph would be more than adequate.

The 4-aspect signalling only extends down the Winchester route after Worting
Junction, the Andover route being 3 or 2 aspect. It may be that with a bit
of low cunning the signals have been so placed that the driver can approach
the junction at 75 under the flashing yellows and still have braking
distance if he finds the junction signal showing yellow rather than green.

None of this excuses the situation that used to exist - and may still do at
other locations - of drivers being confronted with no advance warning of the
wrong route set at high speed junctions when the signalling practice to
overcome this ("splitting distants" or modern equivalents) has been
available for about 100 years.

[Clive Page]

Following up my own report about Chiltern Railways incompetence.

Since I could not find an email address for them, I complained using
their web-form on 13th October. I have since had no reply nor even an
acknowledgement. Since it is a web-form, of course I have no proof that
I ever sent it. All the same I am pursuing the complaint about their
violation of the Passenger Charter with Rail Focus.

I said before that Chiltern have all the hallmarks of a totally
customer-hostile company. I see no reason to alter that opinion. I
shall use them in future only if there is no possible alternative.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Tim Woodall
I was quite impressed. TBH, I wasn't even aware that the drivers could
tell where they were going to go. I'd assumed that they'd only be able
to tell once they'd crossed the points (or possibly from very short
range by the way the points were set).

The signal in many (but not all) cases has an attached
indicator telling drivers which platform or line they
are signalled into.

Post by Tim Woodall
Can drivers also tell if the
points are set incorrectly going the other way (In ancient days that
would derail my toy hornby set - will it derail a real train?) or are
signals coupled to the points so an incorrect points setting will
guarantee a red signal futher up the line?

Yes, signals are 'interlocked' with the points as you
suggest. Running through wrongly-set trailing points,
which means passing a red signal (unless something is
really out of kilter) will not usually derail a train,
but it will wreck the operating mechanism of the points.

The main exceptions to this are where points are
spring-loaded or under hydraulic pressure, as in some
passing loops on single lines such as the West
Highland. In this case the train will pass through and
the points will spring back, ready for the next train
in the other direction.

Points worked by a ground-mounted hand-lever in
shunting yards etc will also (as I understand it)
generally be undamaged if trailed through.

Charlie

[Tim Woodall]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:40:33 +0100,

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by Tim Woodall
I was quite impressed. TBH, I wasn't even aware that the drivers could
tell where they were going to go. I'd assumed that they'd only be able
to tell once they'd crossed the points (or possibly from very short
range by the way the points were set).

The signal in many (but not all) cases has an attached
indicator telling drivers which platform or line they
are signalled into.

<snip other good stuff>

Thanks. Interesting.

Tim.