Carlisle - Dumfries - Stranraer: Has there ever been a direkt line?

[Lüko Willms]

When I travelled to Ireland in the mid-1980ies, starting in
Birmingham, I remember that on a Friday evening I took a train from
New Street going north, had to change somewhere (probably Crewe, might
also have been Stafford) to a sleeper (where I ended unfortunately in
the non-sleeper section, with no chance to get into the other part of
the train), and finally took a ferry from Stranraer to Larne, taking a
train again to get to Belfast.

Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

Can anybody help my memory out, please?


Cheers,
L.W.

[Mario Lanza]

Post by Lüko Willms
When I travelled to Ireland in the mid-1980ies, starting in
Birmingham, I remember that on a Friday evening I took a train from
New Street going north, had to change somewhere (probably Crewe, might
also have been Stafford) to a sleeper (where I ended unfortunately in
the non-sleeper section, with no chance to get into the other part of
the train), and finally took a ferry from Stranraer to Larne, taking a
train again to get to Belfast.
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...
Can anybody help my memory out, please?
Cheers,
L.W.

Me and my mate did a 7 day Scotrail rover back in the late eighties,
rather than find a B&B every night we opted for the night train to
Stranraer on some nights, we would catch it from Carlisle some time
after midnight (great kebab stall just outside the old Motor rail
terminal) and it got to Stranraer around 5:30 am where you could tuck
into breakfast at the ferry terminal. Can't remeber where it came
from (it may even have started at Carlisle).

It was a 47 and mk1 coaches (no sleeper cars), it didn't go to
Glasgow, I think it went via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, it certainly
went direct with no reversals.

[Peter Masson]

"Mario Lanza" <***@accessplus.co.uk> wrote

Me and my mate did a 7 day Scotrail rover back in the late eighties,
rather than find a B&B every night we opted for the night train to
Stranraer on some nights, we would catch it from Carlisle some time
after midnight (great kebab stall just outside the old Motor rail
terminal) and it got to Stranraer around 5:30 am where you could tuck
into breakfast at the ferry terminal. Can't remeber where it came
from (it may even have started at Carlisle).

It was a 47 and mk1 coaches (no sleeper cars), it didn't go to
Glasgow, I think it went via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, it certainly
went direct with no reversals.

1987 was the last Summer when it ran via Kilmarnock - it came from Euston
and did convey sleeping cars as well as seated coaches. In 1988 and 1989 it
was a portion of the Stranraer/Perth/Fort William seats and sleepers, and
ran via Glasgow Central where the portions separated.

Peter

[Mario Lanza]

Post by Mario Lanza
Me and my mate did a 7 day Scotrail rover back in the late eighties,
rather than find a B&B every night we opted for the night train to
Stranraer on some nights, we would catch it from Carlisle some time
after midnight (great kebab stall just outside the old Motor rail
terminal) and it got to Stranraer around 5:30 am where you could tuck
into breakfast at the ferry terminal. Can't remeber where it came
from (it may even have started at Carlisle).
It was a 47 and mk1 coaches (no sleeper cars), it didn't go to
Glasgow, I think it went via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, it certainly
went direct with no reversals.
1987 was the last Summer when it ran via Kilmarnock - it came from Euston
and did convey sleeping cars as well as seated coaches. In 1988 and 1989 it
was a portion of the Stranraer/Perth/Fort William seats and sleepers, and
ran via Glasgow Central where the portions separated.
Peter

I remember buying Clutching at straws by Marillion from HMV in Glasgow
the same week and playing it to death on my personal stereo, that was
released in June 1987 so that would fit in. I must be mistaken with
the sleeping cars, I'm thinking maybe I'm confusing it with the first
train of the day from Stranraer going to Glasgow Central that was the
47 and mk 1's!

God I was only 17 what were our parents thinking allowing us to slum
it round Scotland for a week unsupervised :-)

[Walter Mann]

Post by Mario Lanza

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

It was a 47 and mk1 coaches (no sleeper cars), it didn't go to
Glasgow, I think it went via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, it certainly
went direct with no reversals.

There certainly was a direct line, the Portpatrick and Wigtownshire Joint,
via Castle Douglas, Gatehouse of Fleet, and Newton Stewart; and if those
place names wouldn't make it memorable in themselves, it also featured
somewhat in Dorothy L Sayers fine book "Five Red Herrings" written in the
30s.

But it succumbed long ago, in the 50s I think, and since then trains have,
indeed, had to detour via Kilmarnock.

Walter Mann

[GMac]

Post by Walter Mann

Post by Mario Lanza

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

It was a 47 and mk1 coaches (no sleeper cars), it didn't go to
Glasgow, I think it went via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, it certainly
went direct with no reversals.

There certainly was a direct line, the Portpatrick and Wigtownshire Joint,
via Castle Douglas, Gatehouse of Fleet, and Newton Stewart; and if those
place names wouldn't make it memorable in themselves, it also featured
somewhat in Dorothy L Sayers fine book "Five Red Herrings" written in the
30s.
But it succumbed long ago, in the 50s I think, and since then trains have,
indeed, had to detour via Kilmarnock.
Walter Mann

The old 'Port Road' lost it's passenger service on & from June 14 1965
(along with the Kirkcudbright branch from Castle Douglas) and was
closed completely west of the oil depot at Maxwelltown not long
after. Trains henceforth ran via Mauchline, Annbank & Newton-on-Ayr
(avoiding Kilmarnock) until May 1975 when they were re-routed again
via Barassie & Kilmarnock (which is route followed today by the
surviving pair of Sprinters to & from Newcastle).
There was also a daytime through train from Euston to Stranraer for
quite a few years in addition to the sleeper - I often used to catch
it at Preston or Carlisle (depending whether I was at university or at
home) when going to visit my old man back when he lived in Pinwherry
(a few miles south of Girvan) in the mid to late 1980s. Lovely scenery
up there and his house was situated right next to the line, so I used
get a perfect view of the various loco-hauled passenger & goods
services that ran that way (usually four trains a day to/from Glasgow,
the two boat trains from Euston and up to half a dozen freights).

GM

[Bryan Flint]

Post by GMac

Post by Walter Mann

Post by Mario Lanza

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

It was a 47 and mk1 coaches (no sleeper cars), it didn't go to
Glasgow, I think it went via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, it certainly
went direct with no reversals.

There certainly was a direct line, the Portpatrick and Wigtownshire Joint,
via Castle Douglas, Gatehouse of Fleet, and Newton Stewart; and if those
place names wouldn't make it memorable in themselves, it also featured
somewhat in Dorothy L Sayers fine book "Five Red Herrings" written in the
30s.
But it succumbed long ago, in the 50s I think, and since then trains have,
indeed, had to detour via Kilmarnock.
Walter Mann

The old 'Port Road' lost it's passenger service on & from June 14 1965
(along with the Kirkcudbright branch from Castle Douglas) and was
closed completely west of the oil depot at Maxwelltown not long
after. Trains henceforth ran via Mauchline, Annbank & Newton-on-Ayr
(avoiding Kilmarnock) until May 1975 when they were re-routed again
via Barassie & Kilmarnock (which is route followed today by the
surviving pair of Sprinters to & from Newcastle).
There was also a daytime through train from Euston to Stranraer for
quite a few years in addition to the sleeper - I often used to catch
it at Preston or Carlisle (depending whether I was at university or at
home) when going to visit my old man back when he lived in Pinwherry
(a few miles south of Girvan) in the mid to late 1980s. Lovely scenery
up there and his house was situated right next to the line, so I used
get a perfect view of the various loco-hauled passenger & goods
services that ran that way (usually four trains a day to/from Glasgow,
the two boat trains from Euston and up to half a dozen freights).

In the 50's there was a Saturday only "Stranraer-Larne Boat Express"
originating from Newcastle passed through Carlisle around 2 pm where the
usual V-2 was swapped for a Black Five. It may have been a summer only
train. If there was a reverse working it must have run outside of daylight
hours. I think it was LNER stock and came complete with indicator boards.

Bryan Flint


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[guy]

Post by Bryan Flint

Post by GMac

Post by Walter Mann

Post by Mario Lanza

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

It was a 47 and mk1 coaches (no sleeper cars), it didn't go to
Glasgow, I think it went via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, it certainly
went direct with no reversals.

There certainly was a direct line, the Portpatrick and Wigtownshire Joint,
via Castle Douglas, Gatehouse of Fleet, and Newton Stewart; and if those
place names wouldn't make it memorable in themselves, it also featured
somewhat in Dorothy L Sayers fine book "Five Red Herrings" written in the
30s.
But it succumbed long ago, in the 50s I think, and since then trains have,
indeed, had to detour via Kilmarnock.
Walter Mann

The old 'Port Road' lost it's passenger service on & from June 14 1965
(along with the Kirkcudbright branch from Castle Douglas) and was
closed completely west of the oil depot at Maxwelltown not long
after. Trains henceforth ran via Mauchline, Annbank & Newton-on-Ayr
(avoiding Kilmarnock) until May 1975 when they were re-routed again
via Barassie & Kilmarnock (which is route followed today by the
surviving pair of Sprinters to & from Newcastle).
There was also a daytime through train from Euston to Stranraer for
quite a few years in addition to the sleeper - I often used to catch
it at Preston or Carlisle (depending whether I was at university or at
home) when going to visit my old man back when he lived in Pinwherry
(a few miles south of Girvan) in the mid to late 1980s. Lovely scenery
up there and his house was situated right next to the line, so I used
get a perfect view of the various loco-hauled passenger & goods
services that ran that way (usually four trains a day to/from Glasgow,
the two boat trains from Euston and up to half a dozen freights).

In the 50's there was a Saturday only "Stranraer-Larne Boat Express"
originating from Newcastle passed through Carlisle around 2 pm where the
usual V-2 was swapped for a Black Five. It may have been a summer only
train. If there was a reverse working it must have run outside of daylight
hours. I think it was LNER stock and came complete with indicator boards.
Bryan Flint
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IIRC this route was the primary reason for the 'Clans'

Also until recently (and maybe still - I will check tomorrow) there
were still indicators outside the platforms for stopping points for
sleepers running through Girvan, indicating at least 13 carriages.

Guy

[guy]

Post by Walter Mann

Post by Mario Lanza

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

It was a 47 and mk1 coaches (no sleeper cars), it didn't go to
Glasgow, I think it went via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, it certainly
went direct with no reversals.

There certainly was a direct line, the Portpatrick and Wigtownshire Joint,
via Castle Douglas, Gatehouse of Fleet, and Newton Stewart; and if those
place names wouldn't make it memorable in themselves, it also featured
somewhat in Dorothy L Sayers fine book "Five Red Herrings" written in the
30s.
But it succumbed long ago, in the 50s I think, and since then trains have,
indeed, had to detour via Kilmarnock.
Walter Mann

And the it was also the main area where Buchans '39 Steps' was set'

Guy

[The Good Doctor]

Post by guy
And the it was also the main area where Buchans '39 Steps' was set'

Although in the film, with Robert Donat as Richard Hannay, the train
from Kings Cross traversed the Forth Bridge. That's a long way away.

[Bryan Flint]

Post by The Good Doctor

Post by guy
And the it was also the main area where Buchans '39 Steps' was set'

Although in the film, with Robert Donat as Richard Hannay, the train
from Kings Cross traversed the Forth Bridge. That's a long way away.

there was a remake in 1978 that was filmed in the Dumfries area using a
standard class 4 or class 5. I thought at the time they were doing it on
the cheap not filming in the Highlands. I didn't realize until two days ago
that the correct setting was in the south. I'm sure I read the book during
my school years, I guess that part of the hard disc has deteriorated ;-)

Bryan Flint


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[The Good Doctor]

Post by Bryan Flint

Post by The Good Doctor

Post by guy
And the it was also the main area where Buchans '39 Steps' was set'

Although in the film, with Robert Donat as Richard Hannay, the train
from Kings Cross traversed the Forth Bridge. That's a long way away.

there was a remake in 1978 that was filmed in the Dumfries area using a
standard class 4 or class 5. I thought at the time they were doing it on
the cheap not filming in the Highlands. I didn't realize until two days ago
that the correct setting was in the south. I'm sure I read the book during
my school years, I guess that part of the hard disc has deteriorated ;-)

Blame the filmmakers who obviously included the Forth Bridge for
effect, while departing from the book. I haven't read the book for
many years, although I think I still have a copy from school days.

It was one of my favourite books at school, and still one of my
favourite films, but obviously the original Robert Donat version
directed by Alfred Hitchcock. I only vaguely recall the 1978 remake
with Robert Powell in the leading role. There was also a 1959 version
with Kenneth More, Andrew Cruikshank (Dr Cameron in the original TV
series "Dr Finlay's Casebook") and Sid James in a cameo role.

The Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com) also mentions a planned
remake due for release in 2009. The director is quoted (July 2007) as
saying it is "on the back burner". We'll see!

[Peter Masson]

Post by Lüko Willms
When I travelled to Ireland in the mid-1980ies, starting in
Birmingham, I remember that on a Friday evening I took a train from
New Street going north, had to change somewhere (probably Crewe, might
also have been Stafford) to a sleeper (where I ended unfortunately in
the non-sleeper section, with no chance to get into the other part of
the train), and finally took a ferry from Stranraer to Larne, taking a
train again to get to Belfast.
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...
Can anybody help my memory out, please?

The 1985-86 timetable shows that the Euston to Stranraer seats and sleepers
train, 2110 from Euston, called at Watford Junction, Rugby, Nuneaton, Crewe
(where you changed on to it), Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Carlisle (where it
will have changed engines), Dumfries, Kilmarnock, Ayr, Girvan, and
Stranraer. Even sitting up all night you could be forgiven for dozing off
when the train called at Kilmarnock at 0352.

The train originally ran on the 'Port Road' from Dumfries to Stranraer via
Newton Stewart, but this closed in the 1960s. Then followed a period when it
used the line from Mauchline, south of Kilmarnock, to Ayr, but when the
direct spur from this line into Ayr closed the train took to the route it
will have used when you travelled on it. For a year or two before the train
was taken off for good it ran as a portion of a Perth train, and ran via
Glasgow Central.

Peter

[Lüko Willms]

Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:49:27 UTC, schrieb "Peter Masson"

Post by Peter Masson
The 1985-86 timetable shows that the Euston to Stranraer seats and sleepers
train, 2110 from Euston, called at Watford Junction, Rugby, Nuneaton, Crewe
(where you changed on to it), Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Carlisle (where it
will have changed engines), Dumfries, Kilmarnock, Ayr, Girvan, and
Stranraer. Even sitting up all night you could be forgiven for dozing off
when the train called at Kilmarnock at 0352.

That must have been it.

Thanks a lot, and also to all others who took the pain to help out
my memory with an answer.

Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:00:45 UTC, schrieb "Peter Masson"

Post by Peter Masson
it got to Stranraer around 5:30 am where you could tuck
into breakfast at the ferry terminal.

Well I stumbled right onto the ferry, and into a passport control
before being allowed to board, with questions about the purpose of my
trip. I was astonished about passport controls for a journey which was
supposed not to cross international borders.


Cheers,
L.W.

[MB]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:49:27 UTC, schrieb "Peter Masson"

Post by Peter Masson
The 1985-86 timetable shows that the Euston to Stranraer seats and sleepers
train, 2110 from Euston, called at Watford Junction, Rugby, Nuneaton, Crewe
(where you changed on to it), Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Carlisle (where it
will have changed engines), Dumfries, Kilmarnock, Ayr, Girvan, and
Stranraer. Even sitting up all night you could be forgiven for dozing off
when the train called at Kilmarnock at 0352.

That must have been it.
Thanks a lot, and also to all others who took the pain to help out
my memory with an answer.
Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:00:45 UTC, schrieb "Peter Masson"

Post by Peter Masson
it got to Stranraer around 5:30 am where you could tuck
into breakfast at the ferry terminal.

Well I stumbled right onto the ferry, and into a passport control
before being allowed to board, with questions about the purpose of my
trip. I was astonished about passport controls for a journey which was
supposed not to cross international borders.
Cheers,
L.W.

It was reported a couple of days ago that travellers to Northern Ireland
will soon have to have some form of ID -one more move by the government to
push their mania for compulsory ID cards.

MB

[The Real Doctor]

Post by MB
It was reported a couple of days ago that travellers to Northern Ireland
will soon have to have some form of ID -one more move by the government to
push their mania for compulsory ID cards.

It's more likely to be because the Dublin government are keen to enter
Schengen, and the only remotely sensible way to do that is to
implement Schengen border controls at the relatively few entry points
to NI (three airports and two ports) rather than at every lane
crossing the border.

Ian

[Lüko Willms]

Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:33:58 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by MB
It was reported a couple of days ago that travellers to Northern Ireland
will soon have to have some form of ID -one more move by the government to
push their mania for compulsory ID cards.

It's more likely to be because the Dublin government are keen to enter
Schengen, and the only remotely sensible way to do that is to
implement Schengen border controls at the relatively few entry points
to NI (three airports and two ports) rather than at every lane
crossing the border.

You mean that they will include all of Ireland into the Schengen
space, thus having one part of the United Kingdom in and onother one
out of it?

Its OK with me. They should then also introduce the Euro in the six
counties.


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:33:58 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by MB
It was reported a couple of days ago that travellers to Northern Ireland
will soon have to have some form of ID -one more move by the government to
push their mania for compulsory ID cards.

It's more likely to be because the Dublin government are keen to enter
Schengen, and the only remotely sensible way to do that is to
implement Schengen border controls at the relatively few entry points
to NI (three airports and two ports) rather than at every lane
crossing the border.

You mean that they will include all of Ireland into the Schengen
space, thus having one part of the United Kingdom in and onother one
out of it?

No, that's not possible, and frankly (and practically) there is no way
Ireland can join Schengen unless Britain does. And Britain won't.

[Lüko Willms]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
You mean that they will include all of Ireland into the Schengen
space, thus having one part of the United Kingdom in and onother one
out of it?

No, that's not possible, and frankly (and practically) there is no way
Ireland can join Schengen unless Britain does. And Britain won't.

Well, the Irish might think one day that free travel within _all_
of Europe is more important for them than with just one out of the 27
member countries.

But Britain adopting the Euro would be very helpful -- it is a PITA
to have to store a different currency for a short visit to London,
while I do not have to give the slightest thought of that for a trip
to Paris, or Rome, or Madrid, or Dublin.

But this is now leading us too far away from the railroad topic.

Leave that as a pious wish of my part.


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
You mean that they will include all of Ireland into the Schengen
space, thus having one part of the United Kingdom in and onother one
out of it?

No, that's not possible, and frankly (and practically) there is no way
Ireland can join Schengen unless Britain does. And Britain won't.

Well, the Irish might think one day that free travel within _all_
of Europe is more important for them than with just one out of the 27
member countries.

Free travel to NI is more important for most in Eire. Travelling to
continental Europe (or even Britain) has another level of 'hassle' of
which a passport control is a relatively minor part.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
Well, the Irish might think one day that free travel within _all_
of Europe is more important for them than with just one out of the 27
member countries.

They have that already - once they've crossed a Schengen border.
Practically it makes much more sense to have easy crossings between
the north and south than between the south and continental europe.
Though I agree that getting rid of internal borders everywhere, by
having the UK and Eire join Schengen, would be far better.

Ian

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:33:58 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by MB
It was reported a couple of days ago that travellers to Northern Ireland
will soon have to have some form of ID -one more move by the government to
push their mania for compulsory ID cards.

It's more likely to be because the Dublin government are keen to enter
Schengen, and the only remotely sensible way to do that is to
implement Schengen border controls at the relatively few entry points
to NI (three airports and two ports) rather than at every lane
crossing the border.

You mean that they will include all of Ireland into the Schengen
space, thus having one part of the United Kingdom in and onother one
out of it?

Effectively, yes.

Post by Lüko Willms
Its OK with me. They should then also introduce the Euro in the six
counties.

Too many problems with, for example, taxation. We should just change
to the euro throughout the UK and get it over with.

Ian

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
Well I stumbled right onto the ferry, and into a passport control
before being allowed to board, with questions about the purpose of my
trip. I was astonished about passport controls for a journey which was
supposed not to cross international borders.

You'll recall that we had a little bit of bother with an avowedly
marxist terrorist organisation (and a couple of avowedly religious
ones, of course) for a while in that bit of the UK.

Ian

[Lüko Willms]

Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:20 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
Well I stumbled right onto the ferry, and into a passport control
before being allowed to board, with questions about the purpose of my
trip. I was astonished about passport controls for a journey which was
supposed not to cross international borders.

You'll recall that we had a little bit of bother with an avowedly
marxist terrorist organisation (and a couple of avowedly religious
ones, of course)

that tells a lot about the writer of those lines

Post by The Real Doctor
for a while in that bit of the UK.

So you think internal passport controls within the country are OK,
but ID cards not?

Dont you think that that is, er, schizophrenic?

Makes me also think about those ideas that French people should not
bother when they have to pass a British passport control on a trip
from one city in France to another.


Cheers,
L.W.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:20 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
Well I stumbled right onto the ferry, and into a passport control
before being allowed to board, with questions about the purpose of my
trip. I was astonished about passport controls for a journey which was
supposed not to cross international borders.

You'll recall that we had a little bit of bother with an avowedly
marxist terrorist organisation (and a couple of avowedly religious
ones, of course)

that tells a lot about the writer of those lines

Yeah. I don't like terrorists and I don't think much of marxists
either.

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by The Real Doctor
for a while in that bit of the UK.

So you think internal passport controls within the country are OK,
but ID cards not?

I think there was an arguable case for having increased security
around that part of the country where marxist terrorists were
operating, yes. I went to NI regularly throughout the troubles, from
Stranraer, and never needed a passport, so perhaps you were caught up
in a short term security alert.

Post by Lüko Willms
Dont you think that that is, er, schizophrenic?

Please don't insult people with a distressing mental health problem.
That aside, I don't see what you're getting at. Being opposed to
compulsory ID cards - which I am - doesn't mean disavowing any need
ever to check identity.

Post by Lüko Willms
Makes me also think about those ideas that French people should not
bother when they have to pass a British passport control on a trip
from one city in France to another.

What on earth is that supposed to mean?

Ian

Post by Lüko Willms
Cheers,
L.W.

[James Christie]

In message

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
Dont you think that that is, er, schizophrenic?

Please don't insult people with a distressing mental health problem.

Does that mean comparing yourself to the aforementioned insults them?
Sorry Ian, I had to laugh at that one.

[Bill Borland]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
Makes me also think about those ideas that French people should not
bother when they have to pass a British passport control on a trip
from one city in France to another.

What on earth is that supposed to mean?

I presume he was referring to a recent thread about the use of
Eurostar for internal journeys in France.

[simon]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:20 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
Well I stumbled right onto the ferry, and into a passport control
before being allowed to board, with questions about the purpose of my
trip. I was astonished about passport controls for a journey which was
supposed not to cross international borders.

You'll recall that we had a little bit of bother with an avowedly
marxist terrorist organisation (and a couple of avowedly religious
ones, of course)

that tells a lot about the writer of those lines

Yeah. I don't like terrorists and I don't think much of marxists
either.

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by The Real Doctor
for a while in that bit of the UK.

So you think internal passport controls within the country are OK,
but ID cards not?

I think there was an arguable case for having increased security
around that part of the country where marxist terrorists were
operating, yes. I went to NI regularly throughout the troubles, from
Stranraer, and never needed a passport, so perhaps you were caught up
in a short term security alert.

Ian

Post by Lüko Willms
Cheers,
L.W.

Did the same journey a few times myself at that time, student union card was
best id card I had, but after had left the only id I'd got was a diving club
membership book. Remember security did look at it as though it was a serious
document.

Doing the return journey from Larne one sunday, got off the ferry in
afternoon and sat for hours travelling very slowly all over Scotland. Can
remember we arrived at Crewe around 03:30 and were due to wait for about 2
hours before continuing to Euston.

Cheers,
Simon

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:20 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
Well I stumbled right onto the ferry, and into a passport control
before being allowed to board, with questions about the purpose of my
trip. I was astonished about passport controls for a journey which was
supposed not to cross international borders.

You'll recall that we had a little bit of bother with an avowedly
marxist terrorist organisation (and a couple of avowedly religious
ones, of course)

that tells a lot about the writer of those lines

Post by The Real Doctor
for a while in that bit of the UK.

So you think internal passport controls within the country are OK,
but ID cards not?
Dont you think that that is, er, schizophrenic?

If you're going to play that kind of game, at least get things right. It
wasn't a passport control. There's not even any passport control between
Ireland and the UK- it's a common travel area. Whatever someone may have
thought of it at the time, it was more like a police road block than
anything else.

When I fly domestically in the UK, I have to show my passport, because
it's the only acceptable form of ID I have. That's not passport control
either.

[Lüko Willms]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
So you think internal passport controls within the country are OK,
but ID cards not?

If you're going to play that kind of game, at least get things right. It
wasn't a passport control.

Well, I don't recall all details, but I had to show some kind of
identification document in order to pass the point of control.
Otherwise I would not have been allowed on the ferry.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
There's not even any passport control between Ireland and the UK-
it's a common travel area. Whatever someone may have
thought of it at the time, it was more like a police road block than
anything else.

Sure, so what? What difference does that make? Internal to the
country, as its government understands it.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
When I fly domestically in the UK, I have to show my passport,

really? It is a very long time since I have used a plane within
Germany, but I can't remember that I had to show a passport. Unless,
probably, when flying to Westberlin during the years of division.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
because it's the only acceptable form of ID I have. That's not passport control
either.

What else? Don't try to be silly by word artistics. A passport
control is a passport control even if I can get along it by showing an
ID card.


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
So you think internal passport controls within the country are OK,
but ID cards not?

If you're going to play that kind of game, at least get things right. It
wasn't a passport control.

Well, I don't recall all details, but I had to show some kind of
identification document in order to pass the point of control.
Otherwise I would not have been allowed on the ferry.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
There's not even any passport control between Ireland and the UK-
it's a common travel area. Whatever someone may have
thought of it at the time, it was more like a police road block than
anything else.

Sure, so what? What difference does that make?

It makes it not a passport control.

Post by Lüko Willms
Internal to the
country, as its government understands it.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
When I fly domestically in the UK, I have to show my passport,

really? It is a very long time since I have used a plane within
Germany, but I can't remember that I had to show a passport.

I'd be surprised if you didn't have to show ID.

Post by Lüko Willms
Unless,
probably, when flying to Westberlin during the years of division.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
because it's the only acceptable form of ID I have. That's not passport
control either.

What else? Don't try to be silly by word artistics. A passport
control is a passport control even if I can get along it by showing an
ID card.

Er, no. This isn't a question of semantics. What you would have
undergone on that ferry was a security check, and likely a temporary
one. A passport control is for purposes of immigration. They are two
completely different things.

[Lüko Willms]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
really? It is a very long time since I have used a plane within
Germany, but I can't remember that I had to show a passport.

I'd be surprised if you didn't have to show ID.

What for? I need a ticket, but an ID card? For what purpose? I
don't have to show a passport or ID card for a train ride either. And
there is no passport control to access the gates for internal flights.


But, please bear with me, it is a long time ago, and my memory may
cheat me. And the situation might have changed in light of all those
terrorism scares, "defending Germany at the Hindukush mountains" and
other war adventures.


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
really? It is a very long time since I have used a plane within
Germany, but I can't remember that I had to show a passport.

I'd be surprised if you didn't have to show ID.

What for? I need a ticket, but an ID card? For what purpose?

The reasons you mentioned. It's something a lot of countries (or various
airlines) have done.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
What for? I need a ticket, but an ID card? For what purpose?

Well exactly. Why do you Germans have to carry ID cards with you at
all times?

http://www.justice.org.uk/images/pdfs/idcardcc.pdf

Ian

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
What for? I need a ticket, but an ID card? For what purpose?

Well exactly. Why do you Germans have to carry ID cards with you at
all times?

When I'm abroad, I rarely travel during the day with my passport,
despite this being the law in various countries. (ID, if not passport.)
I've been asked to produce ID once, pretty randomly, in Italy. It was
disconcerting.

[Mike Roebuck]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 04:34:36 -0800 (PST), The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
What for? I need a ticket, but an ID card? For what purpose?

Well exactly. Why do you Germans have to carry ID cards with you at
all times?

In another thread, Lüko claims the don't have to. My understanding for
the last 30 years, including 6 living in Germany, is that they do.

Post by The Real Doctor
http://www.justice.org.uk/images/pdfs/idcardcc.pdf

Thank you for posting that link. It answers another question which
Lüko posted in that other thread.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Mike Roebuck
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 04:34:36 -0800 (PST), The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
What for? I need a ticket, but an ID card? For what purpose?

Well exactly. Why do you Germans have to carry ID cards with you at
all times?

In another thread, Lüko claims the don't have to. My understanding for
the last 30 years, including 6 living in Germany, is that they do.

I think it's compulsory to have one, but not to carry one. In NL, I
think you have to carry one- Italy too. You can be fined if you can't
present a valid ID.

[Neil Williams]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
I think it's compulsory to have one, but not to carry one. In NL, I
think you have to carry one- Italy too. You can be fined if you can't
present a valid ID.

In NL one is required to carry ID, but not necessarily an ID card.
There are several things that are acceptable.

Neil

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:34:36 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
What for? I need a ticket, but an ID card? For what purpose?

Well exactly. Why do you Germans have to carry ID cards with you at
all times?

Some do. I do for convenience, because I might need it at a postal
office to pick up a registered letter or for similar purposes; the
convenience being that I do not have to search it somewhere in my
cupboard to find it and to think that I do need it. I also carry a
number of other documents and cards with me, which I do not use every
day. I even carry some passport photos with me, in case I might need
one for some ID card -- e.g. a few months ago I needed a photo for a
card to the the employee price in the canteen in the place I worked
at. The process was speeded up by me having a photo in my wallet. I
learned that on my first trip to Angola, and for the transit visa for
the USSR which had required three pass photos. My angolan friend then
told me, I should carry some photos with me as he always does when
travelling.

I do not know in how for other people carry their ID card with them,
or the card for the health insurance, or others. They might take them
only when needed, e.g. for a trip to London...

But it is not compulsory to carry the ID card, in that sense this
PDF document "Information Resource on Identity Cards" is not correct.
I am just required to be able to identify myself, and that is
facilitated by showing the ID card, but it could also be done by being
brought to a police local and checking the registry, which takes more
time and is more humiliating.

There only two and a half possible breaches of the regulations,
which can draw a fine: not having a valid one (which can be at home)
and not presenting it if asked for by a competent instance, and
refusing to identify oneself (or giving a false name etc) if a
competent official asks for it. I don't know of anyone who has ever
had to pay a fine for not carrying an ID card with him or her.


Cheers,
L.W.

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:44:06 UTC, schrieb "Lüko Willms"

Post by Lüko Willms
it is not compulsory to carry the ID card,

trying to find out more about this, I found the Brandenburg law on
identity cards ("Personalausweisgesetz für das Land Brandenburg")
which states explicitly in article 1, section (6), that it is not
compulsory to carry an ID card.

BTW, to own an ID card is not required for people who have a
passport. The only inconvenience with the passport is that the address
is not recorded in that document, and that can be a problem for e.g.
registering a car or similar acts where the actual address has to be
verified, or that the person in question actually lives in the
municipality where he asks for some rights.


Cheers,
L.W.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
BTW, to own an ID card is not required for people who have a
passport. The only inconvenience with the passport is that the address
is not recorded in that document, and that can be a problem for e.g.
registering a car or similar acts where the actual address has to be
verified, or that the person in question actually lives in the
municipality where he asks for some rights.

My sister studied in Germany (DAAD). To get into her student room she
had to pay the rent. To pay the rent she had to have a bank account.
To open a bank account she had to have a residence permit. To get the
residence permit she had to have ... the signed rental agreement for
her student room. If we didn't have relative nearby, with a convenient
address to break the cycle, she'd probably still be going round
Freiburg in circles.

Ian

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:51:16 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor
My sister studied in Germany (DAAD). To get into her student room she
had to pay the rent. To pay the rent she had to have a bank account.
To open a bank account she had to have a residence permit. To get the
residence permit she had to have ... the signed rental agreement for
her student room. If we didn't have relative nearby, with a convenient
address to break the cycle, she'd probably still be going round
Freiburg in circles.

The burocracy can be quite awful.

But still the carrying of an ID is still not compulsory.


Cheers,
L.W.

[Neil Williams]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:51:16 -0800 (PST), The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor
To pay the rent she had to have a bank account

That one sounds wrong unless things have changed recently. When I was
in those parts in '99-2000, one could pay any "bank transfer"
(Ueberweisung) bill by taking it and cash to any bank, though there
would be a small charge for doing this. This is exactly how I paid my
first rent.

Neil

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:07:59 UTC, schrieb

Post by Neil Williams

Post by The Real Doctor
To pay the rent she had to have a bank account

That one sounds wrong unless things have changed recently. When I was
in those parts in '99-2000, one could pay any "bank transfer"

Maybe the landlord insisted on a direct debit ("Lastschrift").

Anyway, the vicious circle of work permit - apartment - residence
permit exists, and that was Ian Group's point.


Cheers,
L.W.

[Neil Williams]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:04:13 +0100, "L=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=ko Willms"

Post by Lüko Willms
Maybe the landlord insisted on a direct debit ("Lastschrift").

Could be. Is this a more recent thing (as direct-debit-for-everything
is in the UK)? Every bill I ever had to pay while living in Germany
was payable either by individual Ueberweisung or by standing order (I
forget the term for that).

Neil

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:10:18 UTC, schrieb

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Lüko Willms
Maybe the landlord insisted on a direct debit ("Lastschrift").

Could be. Is this a more recent thing (as direct-debit-for-everything
is in the UK)?

No, on the contrary. It is a very old thing, especially for regular
bills with varying amounts, like a telephone bill, which makes it
impossible to set up a "Dauerauftrag" ("standing order transfer",
perhaps?).

On the other hand, paying by check has never been really popular in
Germany. Well, that refers to instead of a transfer, check instead of
cash was quite widespread in the time when the banks would guarantee a
"Eurocheck" up tp 300 or 400 DEM. That guarantee has vanished, and now
paying with the bank card is quite widespread, either by real time
direct debit with PIN code, or by "Lastschrift", i.e. direct debit in
a day's batch.

Cheers,
L.W.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Neil Williams
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:04:13 +0100, "L=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=ko Willms"

Post by Lüko Willms
Maybe the landlord insisted on a direct debit ("Lastschrift").

Could be. Is this a more recent thing (as direct-debit-for-everything
is in the UK)? Every bill I ever had to pay while living in Germany
was payable either by individual Ueberweisung or by standing order (I
forget the term for that).

It was student accommodation, and I think they needed arrangements in
hand to cover payments for the whole year. Oh yes, and I forgot part
of it. She had a DAAD grant to cover living expenses, and a cheque was
waiting for her to pick up. At the university. As soon as she had the
residence permit. For which ... well, you get the picture.

Ian

[Paul Scott]

Post by Neil Williams
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:04:13 +0100, "L=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=ko Willms"

Post by Lüko Willms
Maybe the landlord insisted on a direct debit ("Lastschrift").

Could be. Is this a more recent thing (as direct-debit-for-everything
is in the UK)? Every bill I ever had to pay while living in Germany
was payable either by individual Ueberweisung or by standing order (I
forget the term for that).

That's a first...

Paul

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:10:18 UTC, schrieb

Post by Neil Williams
Every bill I ever had to pay while living in Germany
was payable either by individual Ueberweisung

transfer

Post by Neil Williams
or by standing order (I forget the term for that).

Dauerauftrag.


Cheers,
L.W.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
There only two and a half possible breaches of the regulations,
which can draw a fine: not having a valid one (which can be at home)
and not presenting it if asked for by a competent instance, and
refusing to identify oneself (or giving a false name etc) if a
competent official asks for it. I don't know of anyone who has ever
had to pay a fine for not carrying an ID card with him or her.

It sounds a bit like our motoring laws: we are required to carry
driving licence, insurance and MOT, but we won't be prosecuted if we
produced them at a police station within 7 days and even if we are
prosecuted we won't be convicted if we produce them within a
"reasonable time".

Having read about them, I like the German data protection laws about
ID cards. Quite a contrast with here, where the plan is to give just
about any government functionary, no matter how minor, powers to
access anything they want.

Ian

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:48:12 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor
It sounds a bit like our motoring laws: we are required to carry
driving licence, insurance and MOT, but we won't be prosecuted if we
produced them at a police station within 7 days and even if we are
prosecuted we won't be convicted if we produce them within a
"reasonable time".

Similar for a driving licence here in Germany, but I think that the
police might order a driver not to drive his car, since it is not sure
and proven that he has a drivers licence.

Post by The Real Doctor
Having read about them, I like the German data protection laws about
ID cards. Quite a contrast with here, where the plan is to give just
about any government functionary, no matter how minor, powers to
access anything they want.

Well, the federal minister of the interior in Berlin has a lot of
plans, one of the is the programming of a computer trojan to spy out
the PCs of the usual suspects and send the results via the Internet to
the police.


Cheers,
L.W.

[James Christie]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
really? It is a very long time since I have used a plane within
Germany, but I can't remember that I had to show a passport.

I'd be surprised if you didn't have to show ID.

I think that's specific to the country. For example I think it was in
2004 when the UK Govt insisted that to fly domestically you required ID.
In many other countries of the world this is still not the case.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by James Christie

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
really? It is a very long time since I have used a plane within
Germany, but I can't remember that I had to show a passport.

I'd be surprised if you didn't have to show ID.

I think that's specific to the country.

Yes, but I'd still be surprised. The EU (actually EEA I think)
harmonised their security requirements at airports- I'd be surprised if
they were checking for any liquids over 100ml, but didn't require ID
from passengers.

[James Christie]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by James Christie

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
really? It is a very long time since I have used a plane within
Germany, but I can't remember that I had to show a passport.

I'd be surprised if you didn't have to show ID.

I think that's specific to the country.

Yes, but I'd still be surprised. The EU (actually EEA I think)
harmonised their security requirements at airports- I'd be surprised if
they were checking for any liquids over 100ml, but didn't require ID
from passengers.

The other slant on it is just how many do check when they're supposed
to?
A couple of months ago I flew from Helsinki to Edinburgh (via London)
and nobody asked to see my passport until I arrived at immigration in
London.
I've also experienced this in the UK, the last time was Southampton to
Edinburgh a few months back, and again, I wasn't asked for ID at all.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
Well, I don't recall all details, but I had to show some kind of
identification document in order to pass the point of control.
Otherwise I would not have been allowed on the ferry.

" ... some kind of identification document ..."

So, not a passport control then.

Post by Lüko Willms
really? It is a very long time since I have used a plane within
Germany, but I can't remember that I had to show a passport. Unless,
probably, when flying to Westberlin during the years of division.

The two main budget airlines (EasyJet and Ryanair) insist on photo ID.
It's nothing to do with security, it's because they don't want people
buying cheap tickets in advance and selling them on when the price has
risen. As far as I know, neither British Airways nor British Midland
are bothered, though that may have changed.

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
because it's the only acceptable form of ID I have. That's not passport control
either.

What else? Don't try to be silly by word artistics. A passport
control is a passport control even if I can get along it by showing an
ID card.

No, if you can get away with another form of ID it's an identity
check. You need to prove your ID before sitting a UK driving test: a
passport will do for that, but so will lots of other things, so it's
not a passport control.

Ian

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:28:44 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
What else? Don't try to be silly by word artistics. A passport
control is a passport control even if I can get along it by showing an
ID card.

No, if you can get away with another form of ID it's an identity
check. You need to prove your ID before sitting a UK driving test: a
passport will do for that, but so will lots of other things, so it's
not a passport control.

This is simply nitpicking by a play with words. A passport control
is also an ID check.

But, please, let us leave that at this point. It wont get better by
repeating the argument.


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:28:44 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
What else? Don't try to be silly by word artistics. A passport
control is a passport control even if I can get along it by showing an
ID card.

No, if you can get away with another form of ID it's an identity
check. You need to prove your ID before sitting a UK driving test: a
passport will do for that, but so will lots of other things, so it's
not a passport control.

This is simply nitpicking by a play with words.

It is not- it's pointing out that there is a big difference between the
two terms- I don't know why you're being so obtuse on this.

[Lüko Willms]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
This is simply nitpicking by a play with words.

about passport control as an ID check.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
It is not- it's pointing out that there is a big difference between the
two terms- I don't know why you're being so obtuse on this.

I don't get any difference. At an airport there is a "passport
control" point, or "Paßkontrolle" in German, and it doesn't matter if
I show an ID card or a passport, except for countries which still do
require a passport. But even showing a passport, it is just an ID
check. A different thing is a visa check, for countries where a visa
is required. That can't be stamped into an ID card, it needs a
passport. BTW, my first IC "card" was not a card, but a little booklet
with a number of pages.


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
This is simply nitpicking by a play with words.

about passport control as an ID check.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
It is not- it's pointing out that there is a big difference between the
two terms- I don't know why you're being so obtuse on this.

I don't get any difference.

That's because you're not 'listening'. A passport check is for
immigration, an ID check is for just that- checking ID- that could be
for anything. Getting into a building, through a police roadblock, on a
flight (without immigration control implications) and so on.

Post by Lüko Willms
At an airport there is a "passport
control" point, or "Paßkontrolle" in German, and it doesn't matter if
I show an ID card or a passport, except for countries which still do
require a passport. But even showing a passport, it is just an ID
check.

<sigh> It's checking that you can enter the country. Immigration. Is
that clear?

[Lüko Willms]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
It's checking that you can enter the country. Immigration. Is
that clear?

When you mean immigration check, why don't you use the word? Pass
control is not identical with immigration check.


Cheers,
L.W.

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:44:03 UTC, schrieb "Lüko Willms"

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
It's checking that you can enter the country. Immigration. Is
that clear?

When you mean immigration check, why don't you use the word? Pass
control is not identical with immigration check.

and a passport is not always required at an immigration check, in
many cases an ID card is enough.


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
It's checking that you can enter the country. Immigration. Is
that clear?

When you mean immigration check, why don't you use the word?

Because passport control _is_ an immigration check. That's the whole
point. It's not a question of semantics. You called something a passport
control when it wasn't one. But, this has been said already. You're
denial of that point is bizzare. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration. It was
as close to a passport control as showing ID to get into specific
buildings is.

[Lüko Willms]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

Besides, as I said before, an immigration check does not necessarily
require a passort. ID card is sufficient in many cases (BTW 2: Poland
and Czech Republic join the Schengen area one month from now).


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There's no border in the immigration sense, anymore than there is when
you go to Gretna from England. Why on earth are you being so obtuse?

Post by Lüko Willms
Besides, as I said before, an immigration check does not necessarily
require a passort. ID card is sufficient in many cases (BTW 2: Poland
and Czech Republic join the Schengen area one month from now).

That's irrelevant and you know it. I'm explaining to you the usage of
"passport control." I'm obviously wasting my time, because I think you
get the point but just want to play dumb anyway. Fine.

[Paul Scott]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There's no border in the immigration sense, anymore than there is when
you go to Gretna from England. Why on earth are you being so obtuse?

Post by Lüko Willms
Besides, as I said before, an immigration check does not necessarily
require a passort. ID card is sufficient in many cases (BTW 2: Poland
and Czech Republic join the Schengen area one month from now).

That's irrelevant and you know it. I'm explaining to you the usage of
"passport control." I'm obviously wasting my time, because I think you
get the point but just want to play dumb anyway. Fine.

Is any form of ID legally required at all to travel from UK to the Republic,
notwithstanding temporary security checks, given the open border between NI
and the Republic? In other words, if someone from north or south of the
island hasn't a passport, are they legal in the other part?

Paul

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Paul Scott

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There's no border in the immigration sense, anymore than there is when
you go to Gretna from England. Why on earth are you being so obtuse?

Post by Lüko Willms
Besides, as I said before, an immigration check does not necessarily
require a passort. ID card is sufficient in many cases (BTW 2: Poland
and Czech Republic join the Schengen area one month from now).

That's irrelevant and you know it. I'm explaining to you the usage of
"passport control." I'm obviously wasting my time, because I think you
get the point but just want to play dumb anyway. Fine.

Is any form of ID legally required at all to travel from UK to the Republic,
notwithstanding temporary security checks, given the open border between NI
and the Republic? In other words, if someone from north or south of the
island hasn't a passport, are they legal in the other part?

I'm not sure- one to look up! I'd imagine that, de facto, no, you don't
need to have one...

[James Christie]

Post by Paul Scott
Is any form of ID legally required at all to travel from UK to the Republic,
notwithstanding temporary security checks, given the open border between NI
and the Republic? In other words, if someone from north or south of the
island hasn't a passport, are they legal in the other part?
Paul

Yes, they're also "legal" to travel to and live in the UK.

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:51:52 -0000, "Paul Scott"

Post by Paul Scott

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There's no border in the immigration sense, anymore than there is when
you go to Gretna from England. Why on earth are you being so obtuse?

Post by Lüko Willms
Besides, as I said before, an immigration check does not necessarily
require a passort. ID card is sufficient in many cases (BTW 2: Poland
and Czech Republic join the Schengen area one month from now).

That's irrelevant and you know it. I'm explaining to you the usage of
"passport control." I'm obviously wasting my time, because I think you
get the point but just want to play dumb anyway. Fine.

Is any form of ID legally required at all to travel from UK to the Republic,
notwithstanding temporary security checks, given the open border between NI
and the Republic? In other words, if someone from north or south of the
island hasn't a passport, are they legal in the other part?

The UK and Ireland (as well as Man and the Channel Islands) are in the
"Common Travel Area" with no passport required to pass from one to the
other. One of the consequences of identity requirements associated
with air travel is that it can be easier to travel anonymously between
the UK and Ireland than it is to do so directly between Great Britain
and Northern Ireland.

[Lüko Willms]

Am Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:24:53 UTC, schrieb Charles Ellson

Post by Charles Ellson
The UK and Ireland (as well as Man and the Channel Islands) are in the
"Common Travel Area" with no passport required to pass from one to the
other. One of the consequences of identity requirements associated
with air travel is that it can be easier to travel anonymously between
the UK and Ireland than it is to do so directly between Great Britain
and Northern Ireland.

The latter names the problem I ran into at my trip to Ireland back
then.

End of discussion...


Cheers,
L.W.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Lüko Willms
I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There's no border in the immigration sense, anymore than there is when
you go to Gretna from England. Why on earth are you being so obtuse?

Because he wants to lecture us all on British Imperialism, and to do
that he has to claim that Northern Ireland is a separate country.

Ian

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

That's not an international border, it's more like crossing the border
between Lander (sp?)

Post by Lüko Willms
Besides, as I said before, an immigration check does not necessarily
require a passort.

It does in UK, you can't take European practice and apply it here.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

That's not an international border,

This is what I think may be going on. He thinks he's being funny here,
and that referring to the political status of Ireland bothers people in
this newsgroup. So far, no one has bitten (because no one cares that
much, and in many cases have a variety of views on it), so he keeps on
trying. It's getting tiresome.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

That's not an international border,

This is what I think may be going on. He thinks he's being funny here,
and that referring to the political status of Ireland bothers people in
this newsgroup. So far, no one has bitten (because no one cares that
much, and in many cases have a variety of views on it), so he keeps on
trying. It's getting tiresome.

You could well be right. He does show an almost American lack of
understanding of the realities of Irish politics.

[Lüko Willms]

Am Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:03:20 UTC, schrieb Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Lüko Willms
I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

That's not an international border, it's more like crossing the border
between Lander (sp?)

That's why I was astonished, since I presumed that the UK government
considers the six counties part of their country.


Cheers,
L.W.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:03:20 UTC, schrieb Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Lüko Willms
I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

That's not an international border, it's more like crossing the border
between Lander (sp?)

That's why I was astonished, since I presumed that the UK government
considers the six counties part of their country.

It does, which is why you didn't undergo passport control. Again, you're
being obtuse. This isn't impressing anyone. Everytime in the future you
attempt a serious debate, I'll remember your behavior here, and it will
certainly colour my views of what you say.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:03:20 UTC, schrieb Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Lüko Willms
I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

That's not an international border, it's more like crossing the border
between Lander (sp?)

That's why I was astonished, since I presumed that the UK government
considers the six counties part of their country.

It is, what's the problem.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There is no (national) border between Wigtownshire and County Down.

Ian

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:22:01 -0800 (PST), The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
. You underwent a security check in the
UK- you weren't crossing any border which required immigration.

I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There is no (national) border between Wigtownshire and County Down.

<pantomime>
Oh, yes there is! :-
Loading Image...

[Lüko Willms]

Am Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:22:01 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There is no (national) border between Wigtownshire and County Down.

I don't know if I ever crossed that border, because -- if I ever did
-- I was not stopped for a passport control. But I was on a trip from
Great Britain to Ireland.

So let us leave it at that.


Cheers,
L.W.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:22:01 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
I was crossing the border between Great Britain and Ireland
(Northern Ireland, in that case).

There is no (national) border betweenWigtownshireand County Down.

I don't know if I ever crossed that border, because -- if I ever did
-- I was not stopped for a passport control.

My mistake. You went from Wigtownshire to County Antrim, not County
Down.

Post by Lüko Willms
But I was on a trip from
Great Britain to Ireland.

If you are going to insist on "Ireland", can we have the courtesy of
"Scotland"?

Ian

[Lüko Willms]

Am Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:56:04 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
But I was on a trip from
Great Britain to Ireland.

If you are going to insist on "Ireland", can we have the courtesy of
"Scotland"?

As far as I know, the sovereign state where I started my trip, is
called "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland", er, no, that
is history, that has been shrunk to "United Kingdom of Great Britain
and _Northern_ Ireland", just the northern 6 counties remained with
the English crown. The constituent parts of that union being Great
Britain and Ireland.

There is no mention of neither Scotland, Wales, or England in that
state's name, just the two islands Great Britain and Ireland. Nor did
I run into a passport check between England and Scotland.

And the northern and southern part of Ireland, they are just parts
of a whole, aren't they?

One would have correctly said "I passed the border between Belgium
and Germany" or "between Poland and Germany", even if -- until 1990 --
this involved two different and separate states called the Federal
Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic.



Cheers,
L.W.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
I don't get any difference. At an airport there is a "passport
control" point, or "Paßkontrolle" in German, and it doesn't matter if
I show an ID card or a passport, except for countries which still do
require a passport.

So why on earth are you arguing that a simply ID check - which you
satisfied with your passport - on the way to Norn Iron was a "passport
control"?

Ian

[Lüko Willms]

Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:07:51 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor
So why on earth are you arguing that a simply ID check - which you
satisfied with your passport - on the way to Norn Iron was a "passport
control"?

Because I was asked for it.

As the other guy wrote -- it was an immigration check, for which he
uses the word "passport check".


Cheers,
L.W.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
Am Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:28:44 UTC, schrieb The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
What else? Don't try to be silly by word artistics. A passport
control is a passport control even if I can get along it by showing an
ID card.

No, if you can get away with another form of ID it's an identity
check. You need to prove your ID before sitting a UK driving test: a
passport will do for that, but so will lots of other things, so it's
not a passport control.

This is simply nitpicking by a play with words. A passport control
is also an ID check.

It is not /only/ an ID check, however.

To board an EasyJet flight I need to take either my passport or my
driving licence. Would you call that a passport control or a driving
licence check?

Ian

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

There still are two direct Carlisle to Stranraer (actually Newcastle -
Carlisle - Stranraer) trains each day. Although they do indeed go via
Kilmarnock, they are not very much slower than the direct line was.

Ian

[Ivor Sleeper]

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

There still are two direct Carlisle to Stranraer (actually Newcastle -
Carlisle - Stranraer) trains each day. Although they do indeed go via
Kilmarnock, they are not very much slower than the direct line was.

Ian

There was a southerly route from Dumfries to Stranraer via Dalbeattie,
Castle Douglas and Newton Stewart, which joined the present-day Glasgow to
Stranraer line at Challoch. However it was closed in 1965, apart from a few
miles which seems to have served the Drungans ICI works until 1994.

McIvor

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Ivor Sleeper

Post by The Real Doctor
There still are two direct Carlisle to Stranraer (actually Newcastle -
Carlisle - Stranraer) trains each day. Although they do indeed go via
Kilmarnock, they are not very much slower than the direct line was.

There was a southerly route from Dumfries to Stranraer via Dalbeattie,
Castle Douglas and Newton Stewart, which joined the present-day Glasgow to
Stranraer line at Challoch. However it was closed in 1965, apart from a few
miles which seems to have served the Drungans ICI works until 1994.

Myes. That's what I meant by "the direct line".

Ian, three miles from Castle Douglas station

[Peter Masson]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Ivor Sleeper
There was a southerly route from Dumfries to Stranraer via Dalbeattie,
Castle Douglas and Newton Stewart, which joined the present-day Glasgow to
Stranraer line at Challoch. However it was closed in 1965, apart from a few
miles which seems to have served the Drungans ICI works until 1994.

Myes. That's what I meant by "the direct line".

Some of the intermediate stations were not exactly well sited for the
communities they purported to serve, especially New Galloway and Gatehouse
of Fleet, which were each around 5 miles from the stations with those names.
In the last years of the line only one train a week (in one direction only)
bothered to call at Gatehouse of Fleet. Between those stations was another,
Loch Skerrow, which had no road access and didn't appear in the public
timetable.

Peter

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Peter Masson
Some of the intermediate stations were not exactly well sited for the
communities they purported to serve, especially New Galloway and Gatehouse
of Fleet, which were each around 5 miles from the stations with those names.
In the last years of the line only one train a week (in one direction only)
bothered to call at Gatehouse of Fleet. Between those stations was another,
Loch Skerrow, which had no road access and didn't appear in the public
timetable.

I was at Loch Skerrow Halt about a year ago. It has a very odd
watercourse running under it - it must come from a weir or the like
higher up the valley, but it runs along the side of the ridge that the
station is built on and is old enough to look natural except for its
position.

Sam

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Sam Wilson
I was at Loch Skerrow Halt about a year ago. It has a very odd
watercourse running under it - it must come from a weir or the like
higher up the valley, but it runs along the side of the ridge that the
station is built on and is old enough to look natural except for its
position.

It's the supply for the pumps for the watering point - which is why
the halt was there.

Ian

[Sam Wilson]

In article

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Sam Wilson
I was at Loch Skerrow Halt about a year ago. It has a very odd
watercourse running under it - it must come from a weir or the like
higher up the valley, but it runs along the side of the ridge that the
station is built on and is old enough to look natural except for its
position.

It's the supply for the pumps for the watering point - which is why
the halt was there.

Makes a kind of sense - that'll be why there are tanks (it's just struck
me) next to the stream. But why build a watering point there? There
are plenty of other water sources along that stretch of line.

Sam

[Envo]

Post by Sam Wilson
In article

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Sam Wilson
I was at Loch Skerrow Halt about a year ago. It has a very odd
watercourse running under it - it must come from a weir or the like
higher up the valley, but it runs along the side of the ridge that the
station is built on and is old enough to look natural except for its
position.

It's the supply for the pumps for the watering point - which is why
the halt was there.

Makes a kind of sense - that'll be why there are tanks (it's just struck
me) next to the stream. But why build a watering point there? There
are plenty of other water sources along that stretch of line.

Ponder on the contents of
http://www.visitsouthwestscotland.com/attractioninfo.asp?attractID=5 for
detailed information about the halt and its water.

Envo

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Envo

Post by Sam Wilson
In article

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Sam Wilson
I was at Loch Skerrow Halt about a year ago. It has a very odd
watercourse running under it - it must come from a weir or the like
higher up the valley, but it runs along the side of the ridge that the
station is built on and is old enough to look natural except for its
position.

It's the supply for the pumps for the watering point - which is why
the halt was there.

Makes a kind of sense - that'll be why there are tanks (it's just struck
me) next to the stream. But why build a watering point there? There
are plenty of other water sources along that stretch of line.

Ponder on the contents of
http://www.visitsouthwestscotland.com/attractioninfo.asp?attractID=5 for
detailed information about the halt and its water.

Thank you. I hadn't realised it was so well known. Before last year I
had visited it once before, as a scout in about 1971, walking through on
a camping trip. The sleepers, or the indentations of the sleepers, I
don't remember which, were still in the ballast which made walking a bit
of a trial.

Sam

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Sam Wilson
Thank you. I hadn't realised it was so well known. Before last year I
had visited it once before, as a scout in about 1971, walking through on
a camping trip. The sleepers, or the indentations of the sleepers, I
don't remember which, were still in the ballast which made walking a bit
of a trial.

I thought about buying Viaduct Cottage, which is by the Big Water of
Fleet viaduct, a few years back. I didn't, because ...

a) it was grossly overpriced

b) it is titchy

c) it's in the middle of nowhere and

d) because I discovered that it's important to know that the nearest
farm - about 2 miles away - is the one that keeps the local supply of
snakebite anti-serum.

That last point being one to ponder, next time you're walking or
camping along the line ...

Ian

[Andrew Robert Breen]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Sam Wilson
Thank you. I hadn't realised it was so well known. Before last year I
had visited it once before, as a scout in about 1971, walking through on
a camping trip. The sleepers, or the indentations of the sleepers, I
don't remember which, were still in the ballast which made walking a bit
of a trial.

I thought about buying Viaduct Cottage, which is by the Big Water of
Fleet viaduct, a few years back. I didn't, because ...
a) it was grossly overpriced
b) it is titchy
c) it's in the middle of nowhere and
d) because I discovered that it's important to know that the nearest
farm - about 2 miles away - is the one that keeps the local supply of
snakebite anti-serum.
That last point being one to ponder, next time you're walking or
camping along the line ...

But think of the addered value..

It's the red waterproof on the back of the door, thanks.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Andrew Robert Breen

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Sam Wilson
Thank you. I hadn't realised it was so well known. Before last year I
had visited it once before, as a scout in about 1971, walking through on
a camping trip. The sleepers, or the indentations of the sleepers, I
don't remember which, were still in the ballast which made walking a bit
of a trial.

I thought about buying Viaduct Cottage, which is by the Big Water of
Fleet viaduct, a few years back. I didn't, because ...
a) it was grossly overpriced
b) it is titchy
c) it's in the middle of nowhere and
d) because I discovered that it's important to know that the nearest
farm - about 2 miles away - is the one that keeps the local supply of
snakebite anti-serum.
That last point being one to ponder, next time you're walking or
camping along the line ...

But think of the addered value..

Fangs for that.

Ian

[Andrew Robert Breen]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Andrew Robert Breen

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Sam Wilson
Thank you. I hadn't realised it was so well known. Before last year I
had visited it once before, as a scout in about 1971, walking through on
a camping trip. The sleepers, or the indentations of the sleepers, I
don't remember which, were still in the ballast which made walking a bit
of a trial.

I thought about buying Viaduct Cottage, which is by the Big Water of
Fleet viaduct, a few years back. I didn't, because ...
a) it was grossly overpriced
b) it is titchy
c) it's in the middle of nowhere and
d) because I discovered that it's important to know that the nearest
farm - about 2 miles away - is the one that keeps the local supply of
snakebite anti-serum.
That last point being one to ponder, next time you're walking or
camping along the line ...

But think of the addered value..

Fangs for that.

Serpently.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Andrew Robert Breen

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Andrew Robert Breen
But think of the addered value..

Fangs for that.

Serpently.

Is that one of your cons? Tricked or not, I'm rattled.

Ian

[guy]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

There still are two direct Carlisle to Stranraer (actually Newcastle -
Carlisle - Stranraer) trains each day. Although they do indeed go via
Kilmarnock, they are not very much slower than the direct line was.
Ian

Well, it puts something like an extra 40 miles on an 80 mile trip...

also

London - Newcastle just over 2 hours

Newcastle - Stranraer 5 hours + (averaging about 30mph)

Guy

[Andrew Robert Breen]

Post by guy

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Lüko Willms
Where my memory fails is the latter part in Scotland leading to
Stranraer -- I can't remember having changed the train another time,
and I cannot imagine to have made such a big detour via Killarnock. I
have certainly not been in Glasgow, I would have remembered such an
important city. But its somewhat more than 20 years ago, and my memory
is faint...

There still are two direct Carlisle to Stranraer (actually Newcastle -
Carlisle - Stranraer) trains each day. Although they do indeed go via
Kilmarnock, they are not very much slower than the direct line was.

Well, it puts something like an extra 40 miles on an 80 mile trip...
also
London - Newcastle just over 2 hours
Newcastle - Stranraer 5 hours + (averaging about 30mph)

Like the man said, "not very much slower than the direct line was"..