A metal detector on the Tyne-Wear Metro

[Michael Bell]

This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.

Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Michael Bell

--

[Peter Masson]

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Here's something on the BTP site
http://www.btp.police.uk/passengers/issues/knife_crime.aspx
AIUI they can invite you to go through the arch, but you can refuse.
However, if you refuse they've presumably got grounds for a stop-and-search.
The intelligence doesn't look very good, if location of the arches and
identification of people to go through them results in 4 weapons found for
every 1000 people they invite to go through.

Peter

[Jonathan Follows]

"Currently police have no legal power to search people unless they have
a reasonable suspicion that they are breaking the law. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jan/22/british-transport-police-crime

In practice of course you're right.

[MB]

"Currently police have no legal power to search people unless they have a
reasonable suspicion that they are breaking the law. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jan/22/british-transport-police-crime
In practice of course you're right.

Isn't it just another example of the police effectively bring in new "laws"
by stealth. Bars in many areas have been compelled to have CCTV or they do
not get their licence renewed, there is no law to say this of course but
they go out of business if they do not comply.

In many circumstances you do not have to give a police officer your name
but if you don't you are arrested as being suspicious.

There is little doubt that they will try to do the same with ID cards if
they are given the chance. There is no requirement to have one but at some
point the police will start doing spot checks on ID cards and if you do not
have one you will be arrested - not for not carrying one of course but just
so they can confirm your identity.












Papiere, zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere - schnell!!!

[Charles Ellson]

Post by MB

"Currently police have no legal power to search people unless they have a
reasonable suspicion that they are breaking the law. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jan/22/british-transport-police-crime
In practice of course you're right.

Isn't it just another example of the police effectively bring in new "laws"
by stealth. Bars in many areas have been compelled to have CCTV or they do
not get their licence renewed, there is no law to say this of course but
they go out of business if they do not comply.

That is not necessarily the police but the local authority's licensing
committee who themselves have "policing" duties under the Licensing
Act 2003 (in England and Wales):-

"The Licensing Act 2003 ("the Act") requires each licensing authority
to carry out its duties with a view to promoting four licensing
objectives.

These are:

* the prevention of crime and disorder
* public safety
* the prevention of public nuisance
* the protection of children from harm "
[http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/alcohol_and_entertainment/4053.aspx]

Unlike the police, councillors can be voted out of a job if they allow
local residents to be annoyed by disorder in licensed premises.
While the laws might not be "specific" in all respects it is in
practice necessary to do certain things not just for compliance
purposes but often to protect the businesses.

Post by MB
In many circumstances you do not have to give a police officer your name
but if you don't you are arrested as being suspicious.
There is little doubt that they will try to do the same with ID cards if
they are given the chance. There is no requirement to have one but at some
point the police will start doing spot checks on ID cards and if you do not
have one you will be arrested - not for not carrying one of course but just
so they can confirm your identity.
Papiere, zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere - schnell!!!

[Mizter T]

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2

Post by Michael Bell
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Here's something on the BTP site
http://www.btp.police.uk/passengers/issues/knife_crime.aspx
AIUI they can invite you to go through the arch, but you can refuse.
However, if you refuse they've presumably got grounds for a stop-and-search.
The intelligence doesn't look very good, if location of the arches and
identification of people to go through them results in 4 weapons found for
every 1000 people they invite to go through.

FWIW, it would almost certainly have been Northumbria Police plod, as
opposed to the BTP, as Northumbria rather than the BTP are responsible
for policing the T&W Metro (not sure how things work for the shared
section of line between Heworth and Sunderland). Of course your rights
are the same regardless of which police force is doing it.

[Jonathan Stott]

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

They had one at Bournemouth a few weeks ago. Lots of plods around doing
random searches of people's bags as they were leaving the station. Only
real effect was that it made people miss their train and it took a month
of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over a dog that was
trying to sniff me.

Jonathan

[naked_draughtsman]

Post by Jonathan Stott
Only
real effect was that it made people miss their train and it took a month
of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over a dog that was
trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.

They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)

peter

[Paul Weaver]

Post by naked_draughtsman

Post by Jonathan Stott
Only
real effect was that it made people miss their train and it took a month
of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over a dog that was
trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the

You missed the world "pointlessly" before "scan". My last Eurostar
trip had me carry a variety of large screwdrivers and knives in my non-
checked luggage, not to mention steel toecaps. If I can happilly take
those, why bother scanning people at all? (Aside from to enforce the
view that you should expect to be pelted with radiation every time you
travel)

Post by naked_draughtsman
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay.  (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)

Adding at least 30 unneccersary minutes to your journey, and pushing
the ball back into the airplane court.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by naked_draughtsman
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)

It's a real inconvenience though, having to take my belt and
watch off, search my pockets for coins, etc. I really don't know
why they need to do it.

The whole boarding procedure of Eurostar is a pain - having to
arrive ages early, and then hang about in a 'lounge' which does
not have enough seats for everyone, then at Paris go through two
passport inspections a few metres apart, with the British one so
slow that the queue backs up past the French one, etc. etc.

Charlie

[Ianigsy]

Post by Charlie Hulme
The whole boarding procedure of Eurostar is a pain - having to
arrive ages early, and then hang about in a 'lounge' which does
not have enough seats for everyone, then at Paris go through two
passport inspections a few metres apart, with the British one so
slow that the queue backs up past the French one, etc. etc.

The delay presumably being caused by the need to scan passports (or
should I say the insistence on scanning passports to justify the
additional expense to the holder of making them scannable?). What
interests me is that this presumably needs some sort of link to the
Border Agency in the UK to be workable- would they just rely on a
visual check if this ever went down (as it's bound to do some day)?
It's also slightly galling to be held up inbound at a UK airport to
have your passport scanned when EU nationals (in the most recent case
Czech and Slovak) seem to breeze through just by showing their
national identity card.

The only time I've seen one in use was at Leeds a few months ago at
about 6pm on a Saturday evening, and they were particularly picking
out young men to go through- I wasn't invited to join the queue as I
had two bags of shopping with me at the time and probably a dozen
things which could have given a false positive reading. As has been
pointed out, though, there are numerous outdoor pursuits where people
have a legitimate need to carry some sort of blade.

[Roland Perry]

In message

Post by Ianigsy

Post by Charlie Hulme
The whole boarding procedure of Eurostar is a pain - having to
arrive ages early, and then hang about in a 'lounge' which does
not have enough seats for everyone, then at Paris go through two
passport inspections a few metres apart, with the British one so
slow that the queue backs up past the French one, etc. etc.

The delay presumably being caused by the need to scan passports (or
should I say the insistence on scanning passports to justify the
additional expense to the holder of making them scannable?). What
interests me is that this presumably needs some sort of link to the
Border Agency in the UK to be workable- would they just rely on a
visual check if this ever went down (as it's bound to do some day)?

I expect they'd continue to scan and collect the details locally, then
find a way to check them with the UK before that train got to St
Pancras, and if there were any "hits" to set up a second passport check
there.

[Neil Williams]

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:19:27 +0100, Charlie Hulme

Post by Charlie Hulme
The whole boarding procedure of Eurostar is a pain - having to
arrive ages early, and then hang about in a 'lounge' which does
not have enough seats for everyone, then at Paris go through two
passport inspections a few metres apart, with the British one so
slow that the queue backs up past the French one, etc. etc.

Do they do outbound passport control at St Pancras? Odd - they don't
at any UK airport. Or do you just mean the E* staff doing their own
checks?

Neil

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Neil Williams
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:19:27 +0100, Charlie Hulme

Post by Charlie Hulme
The whole boarding procedure of Eurostar is a pain - having to
arrive ages early, and then hang about in a 'lounge' which does
not have enough seats for everyone, then at Paris go through two
passport inspections a few metres apart, with the British one so
slow that the queue backs up past the French one, etc. etc.

Do they do outbound passport control at St Pancras? Odd - they don't
at any UK airport. Or do you just mean the E* staff doing their own
checks?

On reflection I should have put 'at Paris' within dashes or
parentheses. The passport problem occurs there. TBH I can't now
recall what happens outbound, except that there's a lot of
hanging about involved and I always manage set off the security
alarm by forgetting a 1p piece or an SD memory card in my pocket
(slight exaggeration perhaps)

Charlie

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:37:08 +0100 someone who may be Charlie Hulme

Post by Charlie Hulme
TBH I can't now
recall what happens outbound, except that there's a lot of
hanging about involved

You waste at least 30 minutes, which makes a mockery of the claims
that it takes two and a quarter hours to get to Paris. It actually
takes close to three hours.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Charlie Hulme
TBH I can't now
recall what happens outbound, except that there's a lot of
hanging about involved

You waste at least 30 minutes, which makes a mockery of the claims
that it takes two and a quarter hours to get to Paris. It actually
takes close to three hours.

It's still better than an airport. Half an hour is sufficient for
Eurostar, but it's rarely wise to allow less than an hour at an airport.
And getting out the other end is much quicker too.

If I had one thing to say about Eurostar's end-to-end times, I think
they should be forced to quote the average, not the time taken by the
fastest train of the day.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by David Hansen

Post by Charlie Hulme
TBH I can't now
recall what happens outbound, except that there's a lot of
hanging about involved

You waste at least 30 minutes, which makes a mockery of the claims
that it takes two and a quarter hours to get to Paris. It actually
takes close to three hours.

It's still better than an airport.

Big deal! It's not better than the Paris - Lausanne TGV, though,
is it?

Charlie

[Neil Williams]

Post by Charlie Hulme
Big deal! It's not better than the Paris - Lausanne TGV, though,
is it?

Or HS1 domestics... (they don't have airline style security, do they?)

Neil

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:00:43 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
It's still better than an airport. Half an hour is sufficient for
Eurostar, but it's rarely wise to allow less than an hour at an airport.

So what? Why does it take over half an hour to get on a train from
London to Paris or Brussels, when it takes a minute or two to get on
a train from London to Edinburgh, Brussels to Cologne and so on?

One may have to wait for a while to get on the train from London to
Edinburgh or Paris to Lyon, but one can wait where one wants to,
move around if one wishes and so on.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:00:43 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
It's still better than an airport. Half an hour is sufficient for
Eurostar, but it's rarely wise to allow less than an hour at an airport.

So what?

So it's still better than an airport.

Post by David Hansen
Why does it take over half an hour to get on a train from
London to Paris or Brussels, when it takes a minute or two to get on
a train from London to Edinburgh, Brussels to Cologne and so on?

Assigned seating, luggage, and the length of the train (especially a
Eurostar that's divided in the middle) means you'll probably never get
the boarding time below ten minutes. Add another few minutes if you have
ticket barriers to negotiate, resulting in the things I know you are
*really* complaining about (the x-ray and passport check) being not much
of an additional burden. They seem to have got the queuing sorted now.

Post by David Hansen
One may have to wait for a while to get on the train from London to
Edinburgh or Paris to Lyon, but one can wait where one wants to,
move around if one wishes and so on.

You can do that "airside" inside the stations too. In practice (a bit
like domestic trains at Kings Cross and St Pancras) they only announce
the platform 15 minutes in advance, so it's a big scramble to get
everyone on board in time.

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:45:17 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by David Hansen
Why does it take over half an hour to get on a train from
London to Paris or Brussels, when it takes a minute or two to get on
a train from London to Edinburgh, Brussels to Cologne and so on?

Assigned seating, luggage, and the length of the train (especially a
Eurostar that's divided in the middle) means you'll probably never get
the boarding time below ten minutes.

They manage all this elsewhere. They even manage it in Paris and
Brussels. Getting from one TGV to another when two are coupled
together is not something I would attempt, other than via a
platform. Good information and signs are the key.

Post by Roland Perry
Add another few minutes if you have
ticket barriers to negotiate,

They manage without these for trains going to other destinations
than London.

Post by Roland Perry
resulting in the things I know you are *really* complaining about

You know do you?

Post by Roland Perry
(the x-ray and passport check) being not much of an additional burden.

I am complaining about the whole thing. Salami slicing it into bits
does not change the complaint.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry

Post by David Hansen
Why does it take over half an hour to get on a train from
London to Paris or Brussels, when it takes a minute or two to get on
a train from London to Edinburgh, Brussels to Cologne and so on?

Assigned seating, luggage, and the length of the train (especially a
Eurostar that's divided in the middle) means you'll probably never get
the boarding time below ten minutes.

They manage all this elsewhere.

Nah, they don't always manage sub-10 minute boarding. And part of the
Eurostar problem with long trains is the way the lounges are always at
the buffers end of the train, so it's a long walk to the other end.

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
Add another few minutes if you have ticket barriers to negotiate,

They manage without these for trains going to other destinations
than London.

With on-train ticket inspection. Which makes more sense for a
multiple-stop train. But like passport checking is a bit of a waste if
you spend 30 minutes of a 2 hour trip doing tickets and an hour an a
half getting very bored.

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
resulting in the things I know you are *really* complaining about

You know do you?

Post by Roland Perry
(the x-ray and passport check) being not much of an additional burden.

I am complaining about the whole thing. Salami slicing it into bits
does not change the complaint.

Of the following, which one would you *most* like to dispense with at
the terminus:

Baggage X-ray
Passport control
Ticket barrier

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:17:47 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
Of the following, which one would you *most* like to dispense with at
Baggage X-ray
Passport control
Ticket barrier

You pose a false question. My answer is that I would like to get rid
of them all.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
Of the following, which one would you *most* like to dispense with at
Baggage X-ray
Passport control
Ticket barrier

You pose a false question. My answer is that I would like to get rid
of them all.

(I won my bet).

But which would you MOST want to get rid of?

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:43:41 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
But which would you MOST want to get rid of?

You pose a false question.

The question you pose is no different to that posed by party
politicians, officials and other disreputable people, which I will
illustrate with reference to road builders.

Their false question is, would you like a) road route a between A
and B, or b) road route b between A and B, or c) road route c
between A and B.

The background to such a false question is as follows

1) those inside the tent have decided that there is a problem

2) those inside the tent have decided what the problem is

3) those inside the tent have decided the problem needs to be solved

4) those inside the tent have decided what the solution is to be, a
road between A and B

5) those inside the tent have prepared minor variations on their
chosen solution, a), b) and c)

6) plebs are given the "choice" of a), b) or c)

7) if plebs point out that this is a false choice those inside the
tent repeat step 6) in the hope of wearing out the plebs

8) the intention is to avoid discussing steps 1) to 5).

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
But which would you MOST want to get rid of?

You pose a false question.

Not at all. You must have one of the three at the top of your agenda.

[Mark Goodge]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:36:57 +0100, David Hansen put finger to

Post by David Hansen
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:17:47 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
Of the following, which one would you *most* like to dispense with at
Baggage X-ray
Passport control
Ticket barrier

You pose a false question. My answer is that I would like to get rid
of them all.

That doesn't mean there isn't one that would be first in line. If I
ask you which of tomorrow's meals you want to eat first, you wouldn't
reply "I want to eat all of them", you would (presumably) reply
"breakfast".

If you were offered the choice between getting rid of one of the three
items that Roland mentioned, or keeping all three, what would you
choose? (And you can make a choice that isn't on offer, as it's not in
your power to add options to the list).

Mark

[Neil Williams]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:36:04 +0100, Mark Goodge

Post by Mark Goodge
If you were offered the choice between getting rid of one of the three
items that Roland mentioned, or keeping all three, what would you
choose? (And you can make a choice that isn't on offer, as it's not in
your power to add options to the list).

Personally, I'd lose the "security" nonsense first...

Neil

[Roland Perry]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Mark Goodge
If you were offered the choice between getting rid of one of the three
items that Roland mentioned, or keeping all three, what would you
choose? (And you can make a choice that isn't on offer, as it's not in
your power to add options to the list).

Personally, I'd lose the "security" nonsense first...

It seems the obvious one, as long as you are sure no-one will ever want
to bomb the tunnel, or the train. That's two separate risks, of course.
The latter includes bombing any of the stations (although the ones they
stop at would be easiest).

Some will say that it's easier to bomb the tunnel using a car, and while
they may think that, if you stop screening train passengers there's no
point in scanning cars (because the bombers will always use the train).
But if you stop scanning [some of] the cars, they will use a car bomb
because that's now easier. It's a paradox you can only break by scanning
both.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by David Hansen
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:00:43 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
It's still better than an airport. Half an hour is sufficient for
Eurostar, but it's rarely wise to allow less than an hour at an airport.

So what? Why does it take over half an hour to get on a train from
London to Paris or Brussels, when it takes a minute or two to get on
a train from London to Edinburgh, Brussels to Cologne and so on?

Pretty obvious, surely. UK isn't in Schengen, and even if you removed
the IMO unnecessary security procedures, you'd still have passport
control, which as people who fly will attest, takes an increasing amount
of time. With a trainload of people, that's only exacerbated.

It's all silly, but there you go. Governments see an advantage in
frightening people.

But, it's not all so easy in some parts of Europe. I've queued for up to
30 minutes to get on Spanish long distance trains due to security, for
example. (And yet, it was local trains that were targeted in the Madrid
bombings.)

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Pretty obvious, surely. UK isn't in Schengen

I don't really understand about Schengen ... but why not do it on
the train? That's what used to happen years ago at most borders.
I suppose it's the sheer number of passengers per train on
Eurostar. Shame they can't have shorter trains running more often.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
and even if you removed
the IMO unnecessary security procedures, you'd still have passport
control, which as people who fly will attest, takes an increasing amount
of time. With a trainload of people, that's only exacerbated.

I thought we had established there is no Passport control at St
Pancras?

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
It's all silly, but there you go. Governments see an advantage in
frightening people.

Seems so, yet you would think the opposite would apply.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
But, it's not all so easy in some parts of Europe. I've queued for up to
30 minutes to get on Spanish long distance trains due to security, for
example. (And yet, it was local trains that were targeted in the Madrid
bombings.)

Thanks. I didn't know that, I've never been to Spain.

Charlie

[Neil Williams]

Post by Charlie Hulme
I don't really understand about Schengen ... but why not do it on
the train? That's what used to happen years ago at most borders.
I suppose it's the sheer number of passengers per train on
Eurostar. Shame they can't have shorter trains running more often.

They used to, until I believe there was a demand for a whole coach to
hold anyone caught for deportation.

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
But, it's not all so easy in some parts of Europe. I've queued for up to
30 minutes to get on Spanish long distance trains due to security, for
example. (And yet, it was local trains that were targeted in the Madrid
bombings.)

Thanks. I didn't know that, I've never been to Spain.

The Delhi Metro has airport-style security! Yes, it does cause
delays, and is a nice proof of how it could never work on London
Underground.

Neil

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Pretty obvious, surely. UK isn't in Schengen

I don't really understand about Schengen ...

It's the group of nearly all EU and EEA countries which don't require
passport controls going from one country to another.

Post by Charlie Hulme
but why not do it on
the train? That's what used to happen years ago at most borders.

Most likely as the passports tend to be scanned nowadays, which has
affected other border crossings For example, if you took crossed the
border between Latvia and Estonia until recently (i.e. before they
joined the Schengen countries), they would take the passports off of you
on the bus, scan them, then return them. Similar thing happened when
crossing from Austria into Slovakia on the train, again pre-schengen,
but when Slovakia was already in the EU.

Post by Charlie Hulme
I suppose it's the sheer number of passengers per train on
Eurostar. Shame they can't have shorter trains running more often.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
and even if you removed
the IMO unnecessary security procedures, you'd still have passport
control, which as people who fly will attest, takes an increasing amount
of time. With a trainload of people, that's only exacerbated.

I thought we had established there is no Passport control at St
Pancras?

Ah, indeed, I was forgetting that and just including it in the total
travel time.

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:22:07 +0100 someone who may be

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Charlie Hulme
but why not do it on
the train? That's what used to happen years ago at most borders.

Most likely as the passports tend to be scanned nowadays,

Even if scanning passports was necessary, this can be done on a
train, though it may take most of the journey if the figures I
guessed at in an earlier thread are realistic.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen
Even if scanning passports was necessary, this can be done on a
train,

Not until they sort out how to deal with the people they need to send
back to France as a result.

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:28:06 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by David Hansen
Even if scanning passports was necessary, this can be done on a
train,

Not until they sort out how to deal with the people they need to send
back to France as a result.

Already sorted out. A compartment proved adequate in the olden days
of borders on the mainland.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry

Post by David Hansen
Even if scanning passports was necessary, this can be done on a
train,

Not until they sort out how to deal with the people they need to send
back to France as a result.

Already sorted out. A compartment proved adequate in the olden days
of borders on the mainland.

But isn't there a problem with the protocol of returning them, not just
the method of incarceration?

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:44:25 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
But isn't there a problem with the protocol of returning them, not just
the method of incarceration?

As you should recall from a previous discussion, I don't see one.
For all their faults France and Belgium are not places where I think
many people could have a well founded fear of persecution that they
would also not have in the UK.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
But isn't there a problem with the protocol of returning them, not just
the method of incarceration?

As you should recall from a previous discussion, I don't see one.
For all their faults France and Belgium are not places where I think
many people could have a well founded fear of persecution that they
would also not have in the UK.

You and I might not, but what's the official view.

(Obviously, there's nothing bad that could happen to the vast majority
of people camped out at Sangatte under a French regime, that they could
escape by travelling further to the UK. But that camp clearly invoked
some sort of diplomatic "problem" by its very existence.)

[Roland Perry]

Post by Charlie Hulme
I thought we had established there is no Passport control at St
Pancras?

There is no outbound UK passport control (but maybe it will be
introduced once the e-borders thing gets into gear).

But there is a French passport control.

[Mizter T]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Charlie Hulme
I thought we had established there is no Passport control at St
Pancras?

There is no outbound UK passport control (but maybe it will be
introduced once the e-borders thing gets into gear).
But there is a French passport control.

If the relevant transport operator (Eurostar, airline, ferry company)
has to collate and pass on passport/ ID card details then I suppose
routine checking as such might not be necessary with the e-borders
'check-in and check-out' system. But I don't know what the details
are, nor have I really thought about all the edge (and perhaps not so
edge) cases.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Roland Perry
There is no outbound UK passport control (but maybe it will be
introduced once the e-borders thing gets into gear).

I thought the point of the e-borders thing was that it won't in a
physical sense - just electronically.

Neil

[Tim Fenton]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
But, it's not all so easy in some parts of Europe. I've queued for up to
30 minutes to get on Spanish long distance trains due to security, for
example. (And yet, it was local trains that were targeted in the Madrid
bombings.)

Indeed, but the security scan was in place before the Madrid bombings. I've
never had to wait more than a couple of minutes, but this procedure seems to
have spread to any IC type service.

It can, of course, become farcical at through stations: Murcia is one that
comes to mind.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)]

Post by Tim Fenton

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
But, it's not all so easy in some parts of Europe. I've queued for up to
30 minutes to get on Spanish long distance trains due to security, for
example. (And yet, it was local trains that were targeted in the Madrid
bombings.)

Indeed, but the security scan was in place before the Madrid bombings.

True.

Post by Tim Fenton
I've
never had to wait more than a couple of minutes, but this procedure seems to
have spread to any IC type service.

I think (as you suggest) it depends on the service, station, and how
busy it is. Recently at Barcelona, it was fairly quick, but at Valencia,
took a long time, with a line of passengers stretching well out of the
concourse to beyond. Then again, at Barcelona, the ticket machines
weren't working, and there was an hour-long wait just to get a ticket.
_That_ was a farce.

[Tim Fenton]

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)

Post by Tim Fenton
I've
never had to wait more than a couple of minutes, but this procedure seems to
have spread to any IC type service.

I think (as you suggest) it depends on the service, station, and how
busy it is. Recently at Barcelona, it was fairly quick, but at Valencia,
took a long time, with a line of passengers stretching well out of the
concourse to beyond.

Interesting. I didn't do too badly at Valencia Nord: both times I was
catching the 18 something Talgo for Alacant Terminal, and I don't recall
there being many takers. But I *do* recall the quaint practice of backing
the train out all the way to Fuente San Luis.

Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Then again, at Barcelona, the ticket machines
weren't working, and there was an hour-long wait just to get a ticket.
_That_ was a farce.

Hmmm. Fortunately the most complex ticket I've had to buy at Sants is a
single to the Airport.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by David Hansen
One may have to wait for a while to get on the train from London to
Edinburgh or Paris to Lyon, but one can wait where one wants to,
move around if one wishes and so on.

And of course, in the case of almost any other train anywhere,
you can arrive at the station 10 minutes before departure, having
reserved a seat, and simply get on the train and go.

Yes, Eurostar has facilities 'railside' but they get very
crowded. St Pancras is probably the best in this respect.

Arriving at St Pancras quite tired and with our luggage, we made
for the lift, only to be told by a rather burly staff member that
we had to use the escalator as the lift is only for wheelchairs
and baby carriages. Nice welcome.

Charlie

[Roland Perry]

Arriving at St Pancras quite tired and with our luggage, we made for
the lift, only to be told by a rather burly staff member that we had to
use the escalator as the lift is only for wheelchairs and baby
carriages. Nice welcome.

Which lift is that? I've used all the landside ones as a foot passenger.
Is it the one for arriving passengers off Eurostar?

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Neil Williams
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:19:27 +0100, Charlie Hulme

Post by Charlie Hulme
The whole boarding procedure of Eurostar is a pain - having to
arrive ages early, and then hang about in a 'lounge' which does
not have enough seats for everyone, then at Paris go through two
passport inspections a few metres apart, with the British one so
slow that the queue backs up past the French one, etc. etc.

Do they do outbound passport control at St Pancras? Odd - they don't
at any UK airport.

It is but not by "the authorities". The job is transferred to the
airline by fining them if a passenger arrives at the other end without
a valid passport.

Post by Neil Williams
Or do you just mean the E* staff doing their own
checks?
Neil

[Graham Murray]

Post by Neil Williams
Do they do outbound passport control at St Pancras? Odd - they don't
at any UK airport. Or do you just mean the E* staff doing their own
checks?

No, there is (normally) no outbound passport control at St
Pancras. There is French passport control for entry into Schengen.

[Michael Bell]

Post by naked_draughtsman

Post by Jonathan Stott
Only
real effect was that it made people miss their train and it took a month
of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over a dog that was
trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)
peter

Strangely, this metal detector wasn't placed where I think they were
most likely to catch somebody with a knife. I think they were just
trying to "establish a principle"

Michael Bell


--

[Paul Scott]

Post by Michael Bell
Strangely, this metal detector wasn't placed where I think they were
most likely to catch somebody with a knife. I think they were just
trying to "establish a principle"

I think the principle of what they are doing has been established months if
not years ago. It's just taken them this long to reach Tyneside, and you've
missed all the previous discussions when they've wheeled out the metal
detectors at for example Paddington, back in late 2005. They've appeared
'randomly' around the country ever since AFAICT...

Paul

[rail]

Post by Michael Bell

Post by naked_draughtsman

Post by Jonathan Stott
Only
real effect was that it made people miss their train and it took a month
of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over a dog that was
trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)
peter

Strangely, this metal detector wasn't placed where I think they were
most likely to catch somebody with a knife.

Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do you
know?

[Michael Bell]

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by naked_draughtsman

Post by Jonathan Stott
Only
real effect was that it made people miss their train and it took a month
of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over a dog that was
trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)
peter

Strangely, this metal detector wasn't placed where I think they were
most likely to catch somebody with a knife.

Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do you
know?

The heavy traffic stations on a Friday night are Central, Monument,
and rather less, Haymarket. And placing it on the HOMEWARDS path
doesn't look like trying to catch somebody "going propared" to commit
a crime.

Michael Bell


--

[rail]

Post by Michael Bell

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by naked_draughtsman

Only real effect was that it made people miss their train and it
took a month of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over
a dog that was trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)
peter

Strangely, this metal detector wasn't placed where I think they were
most likely to catch somebody with a knife.

Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do
you know?

The heavy traffic stations on a Friday night are Central, Monument,
and rather less, Haymarket. And placing it on the HOMEWARDS path
doesn't look like trying to catch somebody "going propared" to commit
a crime.

In your opinion, and as they are portable how do you know it wasn't
redeployed later in the evening?

[Michael Bell]

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by naked_draughtsman

Only real effect was that it made people miss their train and it
took a month of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over
a dog that was trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)
peter

Strangely, this metal detector wasn't placed where I think they were
most likely to catch somebody with a knife.

Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do
you know?

The heavy traffic stations on a Friday night are Central, Monument,
and rather less, Haymarket. And placing it on the HOMEWARDS path
doesn't look like trying to catch somebody "going prepared" to commit
a crime.

In your opinion, and as they are portable how do you know it wasn't
redeployed later in the evening?

This was 10 00 pm. Not much time to re-deploy for the peak time.

Michael Bell



--

[rail]

Post by Michael Bell

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by naked_draughtsman

Only real effect was that it made people miss their train and it
took a month of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over
a dog that was trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)
peter

Strangely, this metal detector wasn't placed where I think they were
most likely to catch somebody with a knife.

Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do
you know?

The heavy traffic stations on a Friday night are Central, Monument,
and rather less, Haymarket. And placing it on the HOMEWARDS path
doesn't look like trying to catch somebody "going prepared" to commit
a crime.

In your opinion, and as they are portable how do you know it wasn't
redeployed later in the evening?

This was 10 00 pm. Not much time to re-deploy for the peak time.

So perhaps it had just been redeployed from earlier. 10pm sounds like a good
time to be deployed on the homeward path.

[Michael Bell]

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell

Post by naked_draughtsman

Only real effect was that it made people miss their train and it
took a month of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over
a dog that was trying to sniff me.

Part of the problem is that most stations are not designed for this sort
of activity, and there probably aren't enough BTP to make it a swift
process without causing queues or congestion.
They scan you (I think) and your bags when you get on Eurostar, but the
stations have been designed for this, there's lots of staff and lots of
scanners/detectors so it's not much of a delay. (Plus you're expecting
it and arrive in plenty of time!)
peter

Strangely, this metal detector wasn't placed where I think they were
most likely to catch somebody with a knife.

Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do
you know?

The heavy traffic stations on a Friday night are Central, Monument,
and rather less, Haymarket. And placing it on the HOMEWARDS path
doesn't look like trying to catch somebody "going prepared" to commit
a crime.

In your opinion, and as they are portable how do you know it wasn't
redeployed later in the evening?

This was 10 00 pm. Not much time to re-deploy for the peak time.

So perhaps it had just been redeployed from earlier. 10pm sounds like a good
time to be deployed on the homeward path.

Yes indeed. There were Metro staff around, looking bored stiff.

Michael Bell



--

[rail]

In message <***@michael.beaverbell.co.uk>
Michael Bell <***@beaverbell.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

Post by Michael Bell
There were Metro staff around, looking bored stiff.

In my limited experience, that's normal.

[Stephen Furley]

Post by rail
Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do you
know?

Why on earth shouldn't somebody be carrying a knife? There are plenty of
perfectly legitimate things that you can use a knife for. You can also use
it as a weapon, but the same could be said for many other things that you
might be carrying, a piece of wood, a length of pipe, a can of baked beans
etc.

I have been threatened with knives several times during my life, and been
attacked with one once; did the ban on attacking people with knives prevent
this? Of course it didn't. Of course, being threatened several times
doesn't make it a frequent event; on average it's happened less than once
per decade; far less than I have experienced harassment from police scum.

There are some things which can only really be used as weapons, batons,
tasers, guns etc., and most people aren't allowed to carry those. Who are
the main exception to this? The very last people who should ever be allowed
to carry any sort of weapon, the police scum.

[Mizter T]

Post by Stephen Furley

Post by rail
Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do you
know?

Why on earth shouldn't somebody be carrying a knife?

Because they want to carry it as a weapon.

[Alistair Gunn]

Post by Mizter T

Post by Stephen Furley

Post by rail
Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and
how do you know?

Why on earth shouldn't somebody be carrying a knife?

Because they want to carry it as a weapon.

I'm curious, how does the metal detector decide if they're carrying it to
as a weapon?

[Michael Bell]

Post by Alistair Gunn

Post by Mizter T

Post by Stephen Furley

Post by rail
Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and
how do you know?

Why on earth shouldn't somebody be carrying a knife?

Because they want to carry it as a weapon.

I'm curious, how does the metal detector decide if they're carrying it to
as a weapon?

I sometimes carry round a grafting knife - very sharp-, though never
on the Metro. But I don't think they would take it seriously as a
weapon, it's obviously NOT a weapon and I am too obviously not a
teenage yobbo.

Michael Bell


--

[Tim Woodall]

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:56:16 +0100,

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Alistair Gunn

Post by Mizter T

Post by Stephen Furley

Post by rail
Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and
how do you know?

Why on earth shouldn't somebody be carrying a knife?

Because they want to carry it as a weapon.

I'm curious, how does the metal detector decide if they're carrying it to
as a weapon?

I sometimes carry round a grafting knife - very sharp-, though never
on the Metro. But I don't think they would take it seriously as a
weapon, it's obviously NOT a weapon and I am too obviously not a
teenage yobbo.

With the exception of a folding pocket knife (penknife) with a blade of
less that three inches _ANY_ bladed or sharply pointed article is
illegal to carry without good reason. (There are religious or ceremonial
dress exceptions as well)

While it's unlikely that someone would actually be arrested for having
one of the plastic knifes that M&S give away for free at the bottom of
their bag, the law doesn't make any any exceptions. (IMO the law is
drafted so widely and badly that it's actually quite hard to be certain
you are not breaking it. I can see no reason why a sharp pencil wouldn't
fall under the "pointed article" clause and "because I might need it" is
not a defence.

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/news/Rambo-fined-80-plastic-knife/article-442508-detail/article.html

http://www.uk-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880033_en_14#pt11-pb3-l1g139
http://www.uk-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/ukpga_19960026_en_1#l1g3

Tim.

[Neil Williams]

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:17:26 +0000 (UTC), Alistair Gunn

Post by Alistair Gunn
I'm curious, how does the metal detector decide if they're carrying it to
as a weapon?

The circumstances of their journey, perhaps. Someone dressed for
going out for a night on the ale is very unlikely to have any
justification for carrying one (bar a small one that lives on a
keyring, perhaps). Someone who explains they're a chef, says where
they work, and perhaps the police contact them to confirm this,
clearly wouldn't have an issue if they were chef's knives - but if it
was a machete they'd be on dodgy ground. An obvious outdoor
enthusiast carrying a rucksack, tent etc may be justified in carrying
an outdoor-type knife but not a chef's knife.

It all requires a bit of common sense, really.

Neil

[Mizter T]

Post by Neil Williams
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:17:26 +0000 (UTC), Alistair Gunn

Post by Alistair Gunn
I'm curious, how does the metal detector decide if they're carrying it to
as a weapon?

The circumstances of their journey, perhaps.  Someone dressed for
going out for a night on the ale is very unlikely to have any
justification for carrying one (bar a small one that lives on a
keyring, perhaps).  Someone who explains they're a chef, says where
they work, and perhaps the police contact them to confirm this,
clearly wouldn't have an issue if they were chef's knives - but if it
was a machete they'd be on dodgy ground.  An obvious outdoor
enthusiast carrying a rucksack, tent etc may be justified in carrying
an outdoor-type knife but not a chef's knife.
It all requires a bit of common sense, really.

Thanks Neil. I just couldn't be bothered to argue this one.

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:22:52 GMT someone who may be

Post by Neil Williams
It all requires a bit of common sense, really.

Not something the police are noted for. They appear to think two
things:

1) an easy arrest will boost their figures

2) if it doesn't get any further that will not affect their figures

The second point ignores the effect on the victim of the first
point.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by David Hansen
On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:22:52 GMT someone who may be

Post by Neil Williams
It all requires a bit of common sense, really.

Not something the police are noted for.

People are prowling around city centres armed with knives. Do you
think the Police should ignore the matter?

Charlie

[Roland Perry]

People are prowling around city centres armed with knives. Do you think
the Police should ignore the matter?

What they should ignore are people who are "not-armed" but still with
knives. Like the "non-terrorists" taking photos, they get caught in the
crossfire.

[Stephen Furley]

On 11/7/09 17:56, in article

Post by Mizter T

Post by Stephen Furley

Post by rail
Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do you
know?

Why on earth shouldn't somebody be carrying a knife?

Because they want to carry it as a weapon.

How do you know why they want to carry it?

See my other post. A can of baked beans is quite heavy; it has quite a
sharp edge where the ends are seamed to the body. I'm pretty sure shat
several heavey blows to the head with this could cause serious, possibly
fatal, injury. Why aren't cans of baked beans banned because they *could*
be used as a weapon. If I want to buy a knife, how am I supposed to get it
from the shop to my kitchen? If it's a new knife it might be in sealed
packaging, but how do I take an old knife to be sharpened, or take it home
again afterwards?

Why am I not allowed to carry something which could possibly be used as a
weapon, but almost certainly isn't going to be, when the police scum are
allowed to carry, and use, things which cannot possibly be used as anything
other than weapons? Should the police scum be allowed to carry these
weapons? Why, or why not? The official reason seems to be that the police
scum need these weapons to defend themselves. In this case, should people
be allowed to carry weapons to defend themselves against the police scum?
Again, why, or why not?

[Neil Williams]

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:11:30 +0100, Stephen Furley

Post by Stephen Furley
See my other post. A can of baked beans is quite heavy; it has quite a
sharp edge where the ends are seamed to the body. I'm pretty sure shat
several heavey blows to the head with this could cause serious, possibly
fatal, injury. Why aren't cans of baked beans banned because they *could*
be used as a weapon. If I want to buy a knife, how am I supposed to get it
from the shop to my kitchen?

If you had, you'd presumably also have a receipt from its purchase
(you'd be well advised to keep it - and if it was a good quality knife
you'd most likely want it for the warranty) and a ticket to where you
live which could be verified if necessary. Thus, this would be
considered a decent reason to carry one.

If, OTOH, you were dressed for a night out and had it concealed in
your pocket, this might not.

Post by Stephen Furley
If it's a new knife it might be in sealed
packaging, but how do I take an old knife to be sharpened, or take it home
again afterwards?

Again, you'd most likely have some sort of way to confirm this -
either a receipt, or maybe the telephone number of the shop where you
had it sharpened, which could be verified if necessary.

Post by Stephen Furley
Why am I not allowed to carry something which could possibly be used as a
weapon

You are, if you have good reason to. Few people would want to unless
they did, and they'd generally rather others didn't either.

It's all based around the classic British concept of reasonableness,
really. Which is probably the best way to do it.

Neil

[Stephen Furley]

Post by rail
Where would they be most likely to catch someone with a knife and how do you
know?

I would like to add a bit more to what I wrote before.

I do not carry a weapon, and do not intend to do so. I actually knew one
person who was killed in a knife attack; the headmaster Phillip Lawrence.
Before he moved to the school where he was killed he had been head of
another school where I once worked. I suspect that I am unusual; the vast
majority of people probably have never met anybody who has been killed in
this way; most have probably never met anybody who has been attacked with a
knife, and many have probably never met anybody who has even been threatened
with one.

I have over the years frequently been in a several 'dangerous' areas, often
late at night, and as I said, I have only even been threatened less than
once per decade. The chances of being attacked with a knife are tiny. A
year or two ago there were several sad cases of teenagers being killed in
knife attacks. Clearly, this is something which we want to prevent, and
I'll come back to that in a moment, but how many teenagers are there in
Britain? How many were killed in road traffic accidents, or in other ways,
during the same period? Though a terrible event for the families of those
involved, this is extremely unlikely to happen to any particular individual.
Did the fact that there were laws against killing people with knives, and
police scum on the streets prevent these events from happening? No. Will
they prevent them from happening again in the future? No. The best chance
that we have of stopping, or at least reducing these events in future is to
stop people living in fear. Knife attacks are a tiny problem; police scum
are a massive one.

While few people are victims of knife attacks many, many people are victims
of attacks, harassment, threats, physical and mental torture by the police
scum. This can be anything from good old-fashioned beatings to much more
modern things. I was recently on a bus in broad daylight and saw three
police scum on the pavement below. Two were standing on the arms and legs of
a men on the ground while the third was kicking his head. How about threats
to confiscate computers, and 'plant' child pornography on them? Or put
false information into CRB disclosures, and if you don't know what can be
included in an 'enhanced' disclosure, which is required for many jobs these
days, find out. The details seem to have been removed from the CRB site
where they used to be, but don't think you have to be convicted, or even
charged with anything to have problems here. Then of course you can be shot
by the police scum if you're wearing a heavy coat (or not), or if you leap
or push through the ticket gates at a tube station (or you didn't, but
somebody near you who turns out to be a police scum) did. Carrying a chair
(or it may have been a table, I can't remember the details now) leg also
allows the police scum to kill you.

I know of very few people who don't hate the British police scum, though few
hate them as fanatically as I do. This applies to people of every race,
sex, age, class, occupation, religion, sexual orientation etc. Even people
who actually supported the police scum in the past have come to hate them
now.

As I said before, fear is the problem; don't live in fear of the police
scum, hate them, and fight back.

If this hasn't happened to you personally then consider yourself lucky, but
don't assume that it won't happen to you in the future.

Please people, get out there, open your eyes, talk to people, and find out
what is going on in this country.

[Charlie Hulme]

Post by Stephen Furley
I know of very few people who don't hate the British police scum

Come on now!

Post by Stephen Furley
though few
hate them as fanatically as I do.

I can certainly believe that.

Charlie

[Stephen Furley]

Post by Charlie Hulme

Post by Stephen Furley
I know of very few people who don't hate the British police scum

Come on now!

Charlie, I am being serious. A few years ago you would probably have been
right; most people probably thought little about the police scum, and had no
strong feelings about them either way. That is changing; all types of
people are coming to hate the scum. There are exceptions of course, my
landlord for example. He's not unintelligent, he works as a teacher. He
says he believes that there are a lot of bad people in the police scum, and
he claims that a friend of his was once in the police scum, but left because
of what they were like, but he still supports them. I really cannot
understand his attitude. With other people who do not yet hate the police
scum I live in hope that I may be able to persuade them to see for
themselves what is happening, and that they may come to hate them, but he
will not.

[Jon Combe]

Post by Jonathan Stott
They had one at Bournemouth a few weeks ago. Lots of plods around doing
random searches of people's bags as they were leaving the station. Only
real effect was that it made people miss their train and it took a month
of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over a dog that was
trying to sniff me.

It would be interesting to know how a TOC would handle this if the
resulting delays entering the station meant you missed a train you were
booked on using an advance purchase ticket only valid on that train.
Would the TOC allow you to use a later train? If not I wonder if you
could recover the costs from the police?

[Stephen Furley]

Post by Jon Combe

Post by Jonathan Stott
They had one at Bournemouth a few weeks ago. Lots of plods around doing
random searches of people's bags as they were leaving the station. Only
real effect was that it made people miss their train and it took a month
of Sundays to get out of the station. And I fell over a dog that was
trying to sniff me.

It would be interesting to know how a TOC would handle this if the
resulting delays entering the station meant you missed a train you were
booked on using an advance purchase ticket only valid on that train.
Would the TOC allow you to use a later train? If not I wonder if you
could recover the costs from the police?

I am pretty sure the answer would be no in both cases.

[Mizter T]

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Knives and guns, at least that would be the primary justification if
there's a metal detector. Doesn't sound as though there were any dogs
- presence of dogs would indicate that checking for drugs was also on
the agenda.

I've seen this a number of times in London at rail and Tube stations,
and also once at a bus station (Hammersmith). From what I've seen,
there are two types of metal detector arch used - the easily portable,
collapsible version you saw, and also a larger heftier and more
professional looking metal detector arch machine which looks much like
one you'd see at an airport (it's obviously portable too - FSVO
"portable").

I've only ever seen the latter larger machine being used by the BTP -
notably it's got a prominent BTP logo on the side of it. Meanwhile,
I've seen the collapsible arches being used by the Met Police (I may
or may not have seen one being used by the BTP as well, I'm not sure).
I've certainly come across some suggestions that the smaller,
collapsible scanner is perhaps more for show ('security theatre' as
it's sometimes called) as opposed to being something that's really
effective. I remember carefully looking at the one I saw in
Hammersmith (positioned at the bottom of a set of escalators that
leads into the shopping centre, which the bus station sits on top of),
and it didn't look like a particularly hi-tech bit of kit.

The police you saw at Gateshead would have been from Northumbria
Police, because they are responsible for policing the T&W Metro
system, not the BTP (though I'm not sure about the arrangements for
the shared stretch of the line between Heworth and Sunderland).

However I'm not always sure that the BTP / local police force divide
with regards to railway/non-railway policing is totally inflexible. A
while back I saw the police doing one of these operations at Lewisham
station - specifically the DLR bit - they had two of the collapsible
scanners (to cover the two exits - they'd taped the third off) and
dogs, and they were definitely Met Police, with no BTP in sight
anywhere (I did look, and also checked the vehicles parked up nearby).

I also remember seeing a big operation not being done on the
overbridge at Clapham Junction station not so long ago, which also
involved Immigration officers (who'd be part of the UK Border Agency
now) along with lots of police - I think some may have been from the
Met along with others from the BTP, I'm not sure.

With regards to the legal basis of it, and the rights an individual
has, the Association of Police Authorities has produced a leaflet that
covers the basics - it's available here:
http://www.apa.police.uk/APA/Features/Police+Stops/Stop+and+Search/

Also, there's information from Liberty on stop and search powers here:
http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/the-rights-of-suspects/stop-and-search/

[Michael Bell]

In message <f2f4c710-7357-4c31-a46d-***@g31g2000yqc.googlegro
ups.com>

Post by Mizter T

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Knives and guns, at least that would be the primary justification if
there's a metal detector. Doesn't sound as though there were any dogs
- presence of dogs would indicate that checking for drugs was also on
the agenda.
I've seen this a number of times in London at rail and Tube stations,
and also once at a bus station (Hammersmith). From what I've seen,
there are two types of metal detector arch used - the easily portable,
collapsible version you saw, and also a larger heftier and more
professional looking metal detector arch machine which looks much like
one you'd see at an airport (it's obviously portable too - FSVO
"portable").

[snip]

Four things made me wonder about its seriousness:-

* Leaving Gateshead station on a Friday night is not the most obvious
place to look for weapons, especially if you hope to catch the weapons
before they are used. Mostly they will pick up people getting onto
buses to go home.
* It was set on a tiled floor, and there were no cables between the
two feet. To create a proper magnetic field, don't there have to be?
* There was no shelf for passing round legitimate metal objects,
money, belts, that sort of thing.
* There were only 2 policemen there. Is that really enough to cope
with actually finding a knife on somebody who is willing to use it?

Michael Bell

--

[Mizter T]

Post by Michael Bell
ups.com>

Post by Mizter T

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Knives and guns, at least that would be the primary justification if
there's a metal detector. Doesn't sound as though there were any dogs
- presence of dogs would indicate that checking for drugs was also on
the agenda.
I've seen this a number of times in London at rail and Tube stations,
and also once at a bus station (Hammersmith). From what I've seen,
there are two types of metal detector arch used - the easily portable,
collapsible version you saw, and also a larger heftier and more
professional looking metal detector arch machine which looks much like
one you'd see at an airport (it's obviously portable too - FSVO
"portable").

[snip]
Four things made me wonder about its seriousness:-
* Leaving Gateshead station on a Friday night is not the most obvious
place to look for weapons, especially if you hope to catch the weapons
before they are used. Mostly they will pick up people getting onto
buses to go home.
* It was set on a tiled floor, and there were no cables between the
two feet. To create a proper magnetic field, don't there have to be?
* There was no shelf for passing round legitimate metal objects,
money, belts, that sort of thing.
* There were only 2 policemen there. Is that really enough to cope
with actually finding a knife on somebody who is willing to use it?

I'm not necessarily sure I'd go along with your comments about the odd-
timing of it happening on Friday night, not least because it's the
start of the weekend and that's when 'things happen'.

But disregarding that, it does sound as though this was more an
exercise in showmanship deterrence, rather than a comprehensive and
involved operation. Doesn't stop it possibly putting the wind up some
ne'er do wellers. It might conceivably have even been in response to
'intelligence' of some sort - which might be nothing more than a gang
carrying knives who'd been seen or had been noted operating in the
area.

[Gukumatz]

Post by Michael Bell
ups.com>

Post by Mizter T

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Knives and guns, at least that would be the primary justification if
there's a metal detector. Doesn't sound as though there were any dogs
- presence of dogs would indicate that checking for drugs was also on
the agenda.
I've seen this a number of times in London at rail and Tube stations,
and also once at a bus station (Hammersmith). From what I've seen,
there are two types of metal detector arch used - the easily portable,
collapsible version you saw, and also a larger heftier and more
professional looking metal detector arch machine which looks much like
one you'd see at an airport (it's obviously portable too - FSVO
"portable").

[snip]
Four things made me wonder about its seriousness:-
* Leaving Gateshead station on a Friday night is not the most obvious
place to look for weapons, especially if you hope to catch the weapons
before they are used. Mostly they will pick up people getting onto
buses to go home.
* It was set on a tiled floor, and there were no cables between the
two feet. To create a proper magnetic field, don't there have to be?
* There was no shelf for passing round legitimate metal objects,
money, belts, that sort of thing.
* There were only 2 policemen there. Is that really enough to cope
with actually finding a knife on somebody who is willing to use it?
Michael Bell
--

What time did you pass through the metro? I was going home from work
at about 9:30pm and there were 4 police by the exit, one of whom was
dealing with a fare dodger.
I was asked by one of the police for my ticket which I found odd as
there were no Metro Inspectors present.

Ivan C

[Michael Bell]

In message <7150802f-d047-4588-9272-***@c2g2000yqi.googlegrou
ps.com>

Post by Gukumatz

Post by Michael Bell
ups.com>

Post by Mizter T

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Knives and guns, at least that would be the primary justification if
there's a metal detector. Doesn't sound as though there were any dogs
- presence of dogs would indicate that checking for drugs was also on
the agenda.
I've seen this a number of times in London at rail and Tube stations,
and also once at a bus station (Hammersmith). From what I've seen,
there are two types of metal detector arch used - the easily portable,
collapsible version you saw, and also a larger heftier and more
professional looking metal detector arch machine which looks much like
one you'd see at an airport (it's obviously portable too - FSVO
"portable").

[snip]
Four things made me wonder about its seriousness:-
* Leaving Gateshead station on a Friday night is not the most obvious
place to look for weapons, especially if you hope to catch the weapons
before they are used. Mostly they will pick up people getting onto
buses to go home.
* It was set on a tiled floor, and there were no cables between the
two feet. To create a proper magnetic field, don't there have to be?
* There was no shelf for passing round legitimate metal objects,
money, belts, that sort of thing.
* There were only 2 policemen there. Is that really enough to cope
with actually finding a knife on somebody who is willing to use it?
Michael Bell
--

What time did you pass through the metro? I was going home from work
at about 9:30pm and there were 4 police by the exit, one of whom was
dealing with a fare dodger.

As stated in another post, it was about 10;00 pm last night.

Post by Gukumatz
I was asked by one of the police for my ticket which I found odd as
there were no Metro Inspectors present.

Yes, curious.

Michael Bell

--

[Gukumatz]

Post by Michael Bell
ps.com>

Post by Gukumatz

Post by Michael Bell
ups.com>

Post by Mizter T

Post by Michael Bell
This evening I came through Gateshead station and there were 2
policemen and portable metal detector. It looked like a metal detector
albeit a dismantlable one and the police confirmed that it was a metal
detector. It was placed as if to check people coming off the metro
into Gateshead town centre, though anybody could be put through it.
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

Knives and guns, at least that would be the primary justification if
there's a metal detector. Doesn't sound as though there were any dogs
- presence of dogs would indicate that checking for drugs was also on
the agenda.
I've seen this a number of times in London at rail and Tube stations,
and also once at a bus station (Hammersmith). From what I've seen,
there are two types of metal detector arch used - the easily portable,
collapsible version you saw, and also a larger heftier and more
professional looking metal detector arch machine which looks much like
one you'd see at an airport (it's obviously portable too - FSVO
"portable").

[snip]
Four things made me wonder about its seriousness:-
* Leaving Gateshead station on a Friday night is not the most obvious
place to look for weapons, especially if you hope to catch the weapons
before they are used. Mostly they will pick up people getting onto
buses to go home.
* It was set on a tiled floor, and there were no cables between the
two feet. To create a proper magnetic field, don't there have to be?
* There was no shelf for passing round legitimate metal objects,
money, belts, that sort of thing.
* There were only 2 policemen there. Is that really enough to cope
with actually finding a knife on somebody who is willing to use it?
Michael Bell
--

What time did you pass through the metro? I was going home from work
at about 9:30pm and there were 4 police by the exit, one of whom was
dealing with a fare dodger.

As stated in another post, it was about 10;00 pm last night.

Post by Gukumatz
I was asked by one of the police for my ticket which I found odd as
there were no Metro Inspectors present.

Yes, curious.
Michael Bell
--

Apologies for my dumb question, I admit I didn't read all the posts
before replying.

I wondered, when the police asked my for my ticket, if they are
actually allowed to do so without Metro inspectors being present?
Anyone know about the law with regard to this?

[Mizter T]

Post by Michael Bell
[snip]
I wondered, when the police asked my for my ticket, if they are
actually allowed to do so without Metro inspectors being present?
Anyone know about the law with regard to this?

I think it's perhaps more a case of them having a justified reason to
stop you and investigate further if you weren't to produce a ticket.
They certainly wouldn't be able to issue a Penalty Fare. I suppose
they could nick you, if they really thought it worthwhile (i.e. if
they thought you were 'dodgy' in some other way), or otherwise tell
you off with the expectation that you'd scuttle off suitably chastened
and would be a good ticket-buying citizen in the future.

I'm a bit hazy on potential range of other procedures that might be
possible - official warning, or some sort of verbal caution?

[Paul Scott]

Post by Gukumatz
Apologies for my dumb question, I admit I didn't read all the posts
before replying.
I wondered, when the police asked my for my ticket, if they are
actually allowed to do so without Metro inspectors being present?
Anyone know about the law with regard to this?

TW Metro (except the Sunderland extension which is BTP) is policed by the
Northumbria force, who IIRC have a dedicated Metro unit paid for by Nexus.

It would be odd if they couldn't then enforce Metro bye-laws such as having
to have a ticket in the paid areas of the Metro?

Paul

[Envo]

Post by Paul Scott

Post by Gukumatz
Apologies for my dumb question, I admit I didn't read all the posts
before replying.
I wondered, when the police asked my for my ticket, if they are
actually allowed to do so without Metro inspectors being present?
Anyone know about the law with regard to this?

TW Metro (except the Sunderland extension which is BTP) is policed by the
Northumbria force, who IIRC have a dedicated Metro unit paid for by Nexus.
It would be odd if they couldn't then enforce Metro bye-laws such as
having to have a ticket in the paid areas of the Metro?

From
http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/connect/Nexus/Metro/Other+information/Metro+-+other+information+-+penalty+fares
:-

"Penalty fare

You must have a valid ticket for your journey before you board a Metro
train.

If you don't have a valid ticket when asked to produce it by either Metro
staff or the police, you may be issued with a £20 Penalty Fare. "

I vaguely recall a local arrangement between Northumbria Police and Nexus
allowing Police to act in this way.

http://www.northumbria.police.uk/about_us/policies_plans_and_strategy/policies/General_Policing_Issues/details.asp?id=4307

http://www.northumbria.police.uk/about_us/policies_plans_and_strategy/policies/General_Policing_Issues/details.asp?id=4256

are also interestingly relevant.

Envo

[Charles Ellson]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 15:36:03 +0100, "Paul Scott"

Post by Paul Scott

Post by Gukumatz
Apologies for my dumb question, I admit I didn't read all the posts
before replying.
I wondered, when the police asked my for my ticket, if they are
actually allowed to do so without Metro inspectors being present?
Anyone know about the law with regard to this?

TW Metro (except the Sunderland extension which is BTP) is policed by the
Northumbria force, who IIRC have a dedicated Metro unit paid for by Nexus.

Thus presumably making them a "servant of the railway company"
(possibly in strict interpretation an agent of the police force which
is the servant of the railway company) entitled to request production
of a railway ticket under s.5 Regulation of Railways Act 1889 ?

Post by Paul Scott
It would be odd if they couldn't then enforce Metro bye-laws such as having
to have a ticket in the paid areas of the Metro?
Paul

[Mizter T]

[snip Micheal Bell's comments]
What time did you pass through the metro? I was going home from work
at about 9:30pm and there were 4 police by the exit, one of whom was
dealing with a fare dodger.
I was asked by one of the police for my ticket which I found odd as
there were no Metro Inspectors present.

I've had this happen once before in London (it was a while back - it'd
be less effective now that Oyster smartcards have widely taken hold).
I guess that failure to show a ticket is a good enough reason for the
police to warrant investigating the individual further.

[Ian]

Post by Michael Bell
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

It's to demonstrate why HS2, if it does pass through Middlesbrough,
should do so at speed. And preferably with an armed escort.

Ian

[Michael Bell]

In message <53382492-fca2-4de1-be24-***@x3g2000yqa.googlegrou
ps.com>

Post by Ian

Post by Michael Bell
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

It's to demonstrate why HS2, if it does pass through Middlesbrough,
should do so at speed. And preferably with an armed escort.
Ian

You don't seem to know where Newcastle and Middlesbrough are.

Michael Bell


--

[rail]

Post by Michael Bell
ps.com>

Post by Ian

Post by Michael Bell
Is this practice widespread? What is the legal basis for it? I suppose
they were looking for knives - or anything. A fishing expedition!

It's to demonstrate why HS2, if it does pass through Middlesbrough,
should do so at speed. And preferably with an armed escort.
Ian

You don't seem to know where Newcastle and Middlesbrough are.

North of Watford?

[Ian]

Post by rail

Post by Michael Bell
You don't seem to know where Newcastle and Middlesbrough are.

North of Watford?

South of the Border?

Incidentally, I see that Stockton on Tees, which is, I believe, part
of Michael's Middlesbrough conurbation, has been named as the place in
Britain with the highest obesity rates. This suggests even more
strongly that a high speed station there would be a bad idea - the
additional power requirements on starting would be enormous. Perhaps
an upgrade to the current rail line and some reinforced cattle trucks
would be more appropriate?

Ian

[David Jackson]

The message

Post by Ian
Perhaps
an upgrade to the current rail line and some reinforced cattle trucks
would be more appropriate?

Do you intend the "improvements" to speed up the supply of steak pies to
the area?

[rail]

Post by David Jackson
The message

Post by Ian
Perhaps
an upgrade to the current rail line and some reinforced cattle trucks
would be more appropriate?

Do you intend the "improvements" to speed up the supply of steak pies to
the area?

Cow pies, shirley?

[David Jackson]

Post by rail

Post by David Jackson
Do you intend the "improvements" to speed up the supply of steak pies to
the area?

Cow pies, shirley?

By all accounts all Desperate Dan's pies wouldn't be big enough, even
with the horns sticking through the crust. Aunt Aggie wouldn't have an
oven big enough!

[Tim Fenton]

Post by Ian
Incidentally, I see that Stockton on Tees, which is, I believe, part
of Michael's Middlesbrough conurbation, has been named as the place in
Britain with the highest obesity rates.

I thought that was Hull? Or was that just "Shagger" Prescott?

[Michael Bell]

Post by Tim Fenton

Post by Ian
Incidentally, I see that Stockton on Tees, which is, I believe, part
of Michael's Middlesbrough conurbation, has been named as the place in
Britain with the highest obesity rates.

I thought that was Hull? Or was that just "Shagger" Prescott?

Funny how in some circles to show knowledge of foreign countries but
ignorance of your own is deemed good.

Michael Bell

--

[Charles Ellson]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:49:55 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Tim Fenton

Post by Ian
Incidentally, I see that Stockton on Tees, which is, I believe, part
of Michael's Middlesbrough conurbation, has been named as the place in
Britain with the highest obesity rates.

I thought that was Hull? Or was that just "Shagger" Prescott?

Funny how in some circles to show knowledge of foreign countries but
ignorance of your own is deemed good.

"Shagger" Norris and "Two Jags" Prescott, isn't it ?

[Michael Bell]

Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:49:55 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Tim Fenton

Post by Ian
Incidentally, I see that Stockton on Tees, which is, I believe, part
of Michael's Middlesbrough conurbation, has been named as the place in
Britain with the highest obesity rates.

I thought that was Hull? Or was that just "Shagger" Prescott?

Funny how in some circles to show knowledge of foreign countries but
ignorance of your own is deemed good.

"Shagger" Norris and "Two Jags" Prescott, isn't it ?

Norris was once a candidate for Mayor of London. Is he in the frame?

Michael Bell


--

[Tim Fenton]

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Tim Fenton

Post by Ian
Incidentally, I see that Stockton on Tees, which is, I believe, part
of Michael's Middlesbrough conurbation, has been named as the place in
Britain with the highest obesity rates.

I thought that was Hull? Or was that just "Shagger" Prescott?

Funny how in some circles to show knowledge of foreign countries but
ignorance of your own is deemed good.

"Shagger" Norris and "Two Jags" Prescott, isn't it ?

Prescott enjoys the luxury of a number of potential nicknames, as does
"Shagger" Major, who was recently called "Johnny Underpants" by Guardian
cartoonist Steve Bell. Oh yes.

[Graham Murray]

Post by Ian
Incidentally, I see that Stockton on Tees, which is, I believe, part
of Michael's Middlesbrough conurbation, has been named as the place in
Britain with the highest obesity rates.

According to a recent series of reports on ITV news, that distinction
goes to Doncaster.

[Ian]

Post by Graham Murray

Post by Ian
Incidentally, I see that Stockton on Tees, which is, I believe, part
of Michael's Middlesbrough conurbation, has been named as the place in
Britain with the highest obesity rates.

According to a recent series of reports on ITV news, that distinction
goes to Doncaster.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6684730.ece

Ian