Elmers End to Selsdon/Sanderstead

[Stu]

Just wondered in anybody knows - before the East Grinstead line was
electrified, the line from Elmers End to Sanderstead was already
electrified. I believe that this line joined the East Grinstead line as
Selsdon (which is presumably where the remains of platforms can still be
seen - was this station served by both lines?) but where did the third rail
actually end (I think that Sanderstead was the destination of trains from
Elmers End)? Was the line in fact electrified from the junction at Selsdon
to Sanderstead? There doesn't appear to have been a bay platform at
Sanderstead so presumably the two existing platform lines were electrified
(and therefore both tracks from the junction too, or was only one line
electrified and therefore a dual direction line)?

Can anybody shed any light on this?

Stu

[Peter Masson]

Post by Stu
Just wondered in anybody knows - before the East Grinstead line was
electrified, the line from Elmers End to Sanderstead was already
electrified. I believe that this line joined the East Grinstead line as
Selsdon (which is presumably where the remains of platforms can still be
seen - was this station served by both lines?) but where did the third rail
actually end (I think that Sanderstead was the destination of trains from
Elmers End)? Was the line in fact electrified from the junction at Selsdon
to Sanderstead? There doesn't appear to have been a bay platform at
Sanderstead so presumably the two existing platform lines were electrified
(and therefore both tracks from the junction too, or was only one line
electrified and therefore a dual direction line)?
Can anybody shed any light on this?

There were originally platforms on the South Croydon - Oxted line at
Selsdon, but these were disused by the 1960s, when Selsdon was only served
from Elmers End. Until the East Grinstead electrification the line between
South Croydon and Selsdon was not electrified (it was in fact electrified a
year before the rest of the East Grinstead line), and in that period some
suburban trains via East Croydon terminated at Sanderstead.

At Sanderstead, trains from Elmers End (and the East Croydon suburbans
mentioned above) terminated in the down platform, then shunted ahead and
back over a crossover to restart from the up platform. As there were times
when a path could not be provided for this manoeuvre, Selsdon (on the Elmers
End branch) was signalled so that trains could be turned back there (IIRC in
the down platform).

The Woodside - Selsdon joint line was opened in 1885, but traffic didn't
develop, so it was closed in the First World War. It was reopened and
electrified in 1935. Now sections of it have been incorporated into Croydon
Tramlink (at least one house which had been built on the trackbed had to be
demolished), and carry far more passengers than they did as heavy rail.

Peter

[Peter Masson]

Post by Peter Masson
Until the East Grinstead electrification the line between
South Croydon and Selsdon was not electrified (it was in fact electrified a
year before the rest of the East Grinstead line), and in that period some
suburban trains via East Croydon terminated at Sanderstead.

To clarify my previous post, Woodside - Selsdon was closed in about 1983.
South Croydon - Selsdon was electrified from May 1986, when local services
via East Croydon began to run to Sanderstead. The rest of the East Grinstead
line was electrified in time for the October 1987 timetable. The locals to
Sanderstead continued for a short while longer, but were later discontinued
in favour of more frequent trains to Caterham and Smitham.

Peter

[Nick Lawford]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Peter Masson
South Croydon and Selsdon was not electrified (it was in fact electrified

a

Post by Peter Masson
year before the rest of the East Grinstead line), and in that period some
suburban trains via East Croydon terminated at Sanderstead.

South Croydon - Selsdon was electrified from May 1986, when local services
via East Croydon began to run to Sanderstead. The rest of the East Grinstead
line was electrified in time for the October 1987 timetable. The locals

After your first post, I was about to say it was more than 1 year before
Grinmod, but your 2nd post 5/86 to 10/87 seems about right from my
notes.

Digressing, I seem to recall in early 1970s ? late 1970s ? there was a
London Bridge (?) - Oxted line peak hours DEMU that avoided East Croydon
by going via Elmers End. Am I right, or have I imagined it or confused
it with a period of planned engineering diversions ?

--
Nick

[Peter Masson]

Post by Nick Lawford
Digressing, I seem to recall in early 1970s ? late 1970s ? there was a
London Bridge (?) - Oxted line peak hours DEMU that avoided East Croydon
by going via Elmers End. Am I right, or have I imagined it or confused
it with a period of planned engineering diversions ?

A quick trawl of random 1970s timetables doesn't throw up anything - all
Oxted line services were booked to call at East Croydon. In any case,
although Windmill Bridge Junction - South Croydon is pretty congested, New
Cross - St Johns has always been even less able to accept an extra peak
service, and feeding between stopping trains down the Mid Kent Line would
mean that London Bridge - Sanderstead would be significantly slower than via
East Croydon.

An engineering or emergency diversion possibly, but this would only have
made sense for a blockade at South Croydon or between there and Selsdon, or,
if there was a blockade between Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells, I suppose a
Hastings diesel could have reversed at Tun Wells and gone via Edenbridge
Town, then via Elmers End to get to London Bridge High Level without
interfering with services through East Croydon.

I recall travelling on a Hastings diesel in the years prior to
electrification when there was planned work in Sevenoaks Tunnel, and it ran
from Tonbridge via Redhill and crossed outside London Bridge to get to
Charing Cross.

Peter

[Nick Lawford]

Post by Peter Masson
A quick trawl of random 1970s timetables doesn't throw up anything -
An engineering or emergency diversion possibly, but this would only

You've got me thinking too, if my memory is right and it were a London
Bridge peak DEMU, it would have been a pretty unusual move for it to
have come off the CD side at LB to gain the right route on the SED side
- not the sort of thing you would expect to find them doing at the
height of the peak. I know there were 4 LH diagrams on Oxted line
commuter peaks back then, but I'm pretty sure the working I'm thinking
of was a DEMU.

I wonder if it was during Three Bridges box commisioning ?

--
Nick

[Peter Masson]

Post by Nick Lawford
You've got me thinking too, if my memory is right and it were a London
Bridge peak DEMU, it would have been a pretty unusual move for it to
have come off the CD side at LB to gain the right route on the SED side
- not the sort of thing you would expect to find them doing at the
height of the peak.

The only occasion when I can recall booked working of peak trains between
the SED lines and the CD platforms was during the Summer when half of
Hungerford Bridge was closed. One or two SED trains were booked into the Low
Level platforms. Most of the trains which couldn't access Charing Cross
terminated at Waterloo East, where there were temporary track and signal
alterations (and a temporary footbridge at the country end of the
platforms), with a few others being diverted via Metropolitan Junction to
Blackfriars.

Peter

[Alan Osborn]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Peter Masson
Until the East Grinstead electrification the line between
South Croydon and Selsdon was not electrified (it was in fact electrified

a

Post by Peter Masson
year before the rest of the East Grinstead line), and in that period some
suburban trains via East Croydon terminated at Sanderstead.

To clarify my previous post, Woodside - Selsdon was closed in about 1983.
South Croydon - Selsdon was electrified from May 1986, when local services
via East Croydon began to run to Sanderstead. The rest of the East Grinstead
line was electrified in time for the October 1987 timetable. The locals to
Sanderstead continued for a short while longer, but were later discontinued
in favour of more frequent trains to Caterham and Smitham.
Peter

In its final years it was just a peak shuttle from Elmers End to
Sanderstead - although I recall one train terminated at Selsdon.
The last day of services was 13th May 1983 (Selsdon to Woodside)
The section from Woodside to Elmers End also being used by the
Addiscombe branch trains until they to succumbed on 31st May 1997.

Part of the route is now utilised by Tramlink

It was a period of rationalisation in the area as a few months later
30th September 1983 saw the last trains to serve Coulsdon North.

[Peter Masson]

Post by Alan Osborn
In its final years it was just a peak shuttle from Elmers End to
Sanderstead - although I recall one train terminated at Selsdon.
The last day of services was 13th May 1983 (Selsdon to Woodside)
The section from Woodside to Elmers End also being used by the
Addiscombe branch trains until they to succumbed on 31st May 1997.
Part of the route is now utilised by Tramlink

Bingham Road used to get a few passengers, rather more than Addiscombe, as
it served an area which is a tidy step from East Croydon. This area is now
served by the Addiscombe tram stop. Coombe Road and Selsdon were little
used, as passengers to London would use the much better service from South
Croydon. I don't think, either, that there were ever more than a handful of
passengers who used the line as a link between the Oxted line and stations
north of Elmers End, although ISTR (vaguely) that at the time of closure
there was mention of a schoolboy or two who used the line to get to St
Dunstan's School at Catford.

R W Kidner's description evokes memories: 'A train terminating at Selsdon
was in fact connecting with nothing (after the Oxted line platforms closed
in 1959). Nor was it usually carrying any passengers. If you took a train
terminating there, you could be sure that when you alighted, absolutely
nothing would happen except that after a while, silently, wordlessly,
without a whistle or a hoot, the train would go back whence it came.'
Apparently he didn't notice the driver changing ends.

Use of the route for Tramlink, especially the section between Sandilands and
Lloyd Park, has at last given New Addington effective public transport. Even
the express buses used to get caught up in the traffic.

Peter

[John Law]

Post by Peter Masson
R W Kidner's description evokes memories: 'A train terminating at Selsdon
was in fact connecting with nothing (after the Oxted line platforms closed
in 1959). Nor was it usually carrying any passengers. If you took a train
terminating there, you could be sure that when you alighted, absolutely
nothing would happen except that after a while, silently, wordlessly,
without a whistle or a hoot, the train would go back whence it came.'
Apparently he didn't notice the driver changing ends.
Use of the route for Tramlink, especially the section between Sandilands and
Lloyd Park, has at last given New Addington effective public transport. Even
the express buses used to get caught up in the traffic.
Peter

I used to be a guard at Grove Park and one of our jobs was the 1712 CX to
Selsdon. Very busy to Elmers End & Woodside, but then almost empty. Maybe 6
passengers at Selsdon. The station was staffed though! And it was gaslit.
John

[Nick Lawford]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Alan Osborn
The section from Woodside to Elmers End also being used by the
Addiscombe branch trains until they to succumbed on 31st May 1997.

Bingham Road used to get a few passengers, rather more than Addiscombe, as
it served an area which is a tidy step from East Croydon. This area is now
served by the Addiscombe tram stop.

Addiscombe only survived as long as it did because there was an EMU car
shed there which in EPB days they could not do without.

It was much discussed at the time the Sanderstead / Elmers End line
closed that keeping that and closing Addiscombe would have been a better
option, being a through route. SED needed Addiscombe stabling capacity
at a time when they would not have got investment authority to replace
it. Of course, it turned out later Addiscombe shed was surplus, it never
took Networkers, being closed some time before the line.

I used to Addiscombe regularly about once a month in late 1980s / early
1990s. Often the only passenger on the train.

--
Nick

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:20:32 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be "Nick

Post by Nick Lawford
I used to Addiscombe regularly about once a month in late 1980s / early
1990s. Often the only passenger on the train.

I tried to use it once in the mid 1980s, but for some reason the
train was not running. I never bothered again.

[Peter Masson]

Post by Nick Lawford
Addiscombe only survived as long as it did because there was an EMU car
shed there which in EPB days they could not do without.

Woodside to Selsdon was probably only built because the local interests
which promoted it managed to play off the SER and the LB&SCR off against
each other. There were delays in building it, so that it didn't open until
1885, and by 1895 there was serious consideration of closing it, because it
didn'tr even cover its operating costs.

During the period when it was closed to passengers, 1917-35, occasional
goods trains ran. Perhaps the surprise is that it was reopened and
electrified in 1935. One suggestion was that an additional destination,
besides Hayes and Addiscombe was needed, but in fact the Selsdon/Sanderstead
service was run by diverting trains which formerly ran up the spur to
Beckenham Junction.

Peter

[Nick Lawford]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Nick Lawford
Addiscombe only survived as long as it did because there was an EMU car
shed there which in EPB days they could not do without.

Perhaps the surprise is that it was reopened and
electrified in 1935.

Yes; what I was meaning was Addiscombe only survived in modern times as
long as it did into the 1990s because of the car shed. It was always a
puzzle to me why that particular location would be used for stabling
unless there was some grander scheme of things at work.

--
Nick

[M.Whitson]

The original purpose of the line to Addiscombe was as part of a throughoute
on to the Brighton mainline the idea was to avoid the Forest Hill bank which
was deemed to be expensive to work. It is possible that there is some
published research on this question but I don't have anything relevant to
hand.
Those interested may be inttrigued to know that at one time the SER ran an
"express" service from Tonbridge via the old ML joining the Oxted line at
Crowhurst then up that line via Sanderstead to either CX or CSt
Re why was there a car shed at Addicombe? Most probably because there was
surplus land available which had no restrictions on it.
MJW

[martin]

Post by Nick Lawford

Post by Peter Masson

Post by Alan Osborn
The section from Woodside to Elmers End also being used by the
Addiscombe branch trains until they to succumbed on 31st May 1997.

Bingham Road used to get a few passengers, rather more than Addiscombe, as
it served an area which is a tidy step from East Croydon. This area is now
served by the Addiscombe tram stop.

Addiscombe only survived as long as it did because there was an EMU car
shed there which in EPB days they could not do without.
It was much discussed at the time the Sanderstead / Elmers End line
closed that keeping that and closing Addiscombe would have been a better
option, being a through route. SED needed Addiscombe stabling capacity
at a time when they would not have got investment authority to replace
it. Of course, it turned out later Addiscombe shed was surplus, it never
took Networkers, being closed some time before the line.

The turnback points at Sanderstead were shiny today.Does it still have
a regular service terminating here?

[Peter Masson]

Post by martin
The turnback points at Sanderstead were shiny today.Does it still have
a regular service terminating here?

0638 Sanderstead - Victoria presumably arrives ecs and uses the trailing
crossover to access the up line.

Peter

[martin]

Post by Peter Masson

Post by martin
The turnback points at Sanderstead were shiny today.Does it still have
a regular service terminating here?

0638 Sanderstead - Victoria presumably arrives ecs and uses the trailing
crossover to access the up line.
Peter

Thanks, did not know about that one. We have also lost the EG flyer,
early morning train that was IIRC E croydon-Oxted-E grinstead only
(never used it, not that keen). The best non stop service I ever had
was EG-Oxted, change to demu for E croydon-Vic (3stops, skipped all
others on EG line)

[martin]

Post by martin

Post by Peter Masson

Post by martin
The turnback points at Sanderstead were shiny today.Does it still have
a regular service terminating here?

0638 Sanderstead - Victoria presumably arrives ecs and uses the trailing
crossover to access the up line.
Peter

Thanks, did not know about that one. We have also lost the EG flyer,
early morning train that was IIRC E croydon-Oxted-E grinstead only
(never used it, not that keen).

correction it still runs Sat only 0525 Vic

[jeffreybounds]

Post by Stu
Just wondered in anybody knows - before the East Grinstead line was
electrified, the line from Elmers End to Sanderstead was already
electrified. I believe that this line joined the East Grinstead line as
Selsdon (which is presumably where the remains of platforms can still be
seen - was this station served by both lines?) but where did the third rail
actually end (I think that Sanderstead was the destination of trains from
Elmers End)? Was the line in fact electrified from the junction at Selsdon
to Sanderstead? There doesn't appear to have been a bay platform at
Sanderstead so presumably the two existing platform lines were electrified
(and therefore both tracks from the junction too, or was only one line
electrified and therefore a dual direction line)?
Can anybody shed any light on this?
Stu

When I visited London in 1976 some of the afternoon peak hour trains
used to terminate at Selsdon.
The line was then only operating at peak hours.
Jeff