What’s going on with the sleeper locos?

[Recliner]

It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.

From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction

CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.

The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.

The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.

GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.

GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

[Tweed]

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

[Bevan Price]

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.

The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

[Recliner]

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

[Bevan Price]

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

[Recliner]

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

It occurs to me that the 99s would have another advantage: the sleeper is
often diverted from the WCML (and perhaps increasingly so during the Euston
rebuilding), and a 99 might be able to take routes with gaps in the
electrification. I wonder if it could manage the S&C with the full length
sleeper?

[Scott]

On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 20:34:34 +0000, Bevan Price

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

How does this work? How does driver number 2 match the speed of loco 1
so that loco 1 is not dragging loco 2 or loco 2 is not pushing loco 1?
I have seen a steam engine at the front and a diesel at the back and I
always wonder how they run them at the same speed.

[Recliner]

Post by Scott
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 20:34:34 +0000, Bevan Price

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

How does this work? How does driver number 2 match the speed of loco 1
so that loco 1 is not dragging loco 2 or loco 2 is not pushing loco 1?
I have seen a steam engine at the front and a diesel at the back and I
always wonder how they run them at the same speed.

I thought the 66 provides the traction and the 73 the hotel power?

With steam trains, the rear diesel acts as a banker if the steam engine is
struggling. The drivers are in contact via radio. The diesel might also be
providing hotel power if needed (many charter trains have gennie cars).

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

I have some kind of vague feeling that the Class 73/9 rebuilds, at least
the ones for CS, had the AAR MU equipment installed. I’ve been unable to
confirm that but looking at them all the 73/9s have a big socket in the
middle of the cab front exactly like the 66s.

Sam

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

I have some kind of vague feeling that the Class 73/9 rebuilds, at least
the ones for CS, had the AAR MU equipment installed. I’ve been unable to
confirm that but looking at them all the 73/9s have a big socket in the
middle of the cab front exactly like the 66s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_working
says AAR system.

Regards, ULF

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

I have some kind of vague feeling that the Class 73/9 rebuilds, at least
the ones for CS, had the AAR MU equipment installed. I’ve been unable to
confirm that but looking at them all the 73/9s have a big socket in the
middle of the cab front exactly like the 66s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_working
says AAR system.

Thank you. That information doesn’t seem to be in the Wikpedia article on
the Class 73, but it does mean that a 66 and 73 ought to be able to be
driven with only one crew.

Sam

[Ulf_Kutzner]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

I have some kind of vague feeling that the Class 73/9 rebuilds, at least
the ones for CS, had the AAR MU equipment installed. I’ve been unable to
confirm that but looking at them all the 73/9s have a big socket in the
middle of the cab front exactly like the 66s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_working
says AAR system.

Thank you. That information doesn’t seem to be in the Wikpedia article on
the Class 73, but it does mean that a 66 and 73 ought to be able to be
driven with only one crew.

See specifications in frame:

MU working 73/9: AAR system
(59, 66, 67, 68 008-015, 69, 70, and 73/9)

Regards, ULF

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Ulf_Kutzner

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Recliner

Post by Bevan Price

Post by Tweed

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.
From
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/caledonian-sleeper-tender-new-traction
CSL will be seeking locomotives to operate with its fleet of 75 CAF Mk 5s
across its network as well as the provision of maintenance, spares and
facilities to support the locomotive fleet. The provision of drivers and
associated support as well as operational control and associated support
will also be sought in the tendering process. Potential financing will also
be considered as part of the contract award.
The notice says: ‘The principal aim of this exercise is to understand the
potential solutions available to CSL to ensure the continued safe and
reliable operation of those services and market interest from suitably
qualified providers in contracting with CSL to provide those solutions. CSL
is open to input and expertise from the market to help shape the successful
future of the operation.’ CSL intends to undertake further procurement
steps following the completion of the market engagement.
The notice added: ‘Prospective suppliers with the necessary capacity and
capability are invited to register their interest on the Public Contracts
Scotland site and send an NDA request via email by 20 March 2025. CSL will
then invite all interested parties to complete and submit our
non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Once the NDA process is complete, entities
will be asked to complete a Market Engagement Questionnaire. It is
anticipated that the Market Engagement Questionnaire deadline for
submission is 18 April with CSL reviewing submissions as they are received.
GB Railfreight supplies CS with traction and traincrew and has done since
Serco began operating the franchise on 31 March 2015 when it was split from
ScotRail. Since 25 June 2023, CS has been managed by Scottish Rail Holdings
(SRH). Rolling stock maintenance is carried out under contract by Alstom.
GBRf refurbished 10 Class 92s for use on the West Coast main line - Nos
92006/010/014/018/020/023/028/033/038/043 - while six Class 73s were
rebuilt using MTU engines. Nos 73966-971 operate the non-electrified routes
from Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William.
Performance issues with the ‘73s’ has seen GBRf use Class 66s on the
Aberdeen and Inverness portions paired with ‘73s’.

Is this something a class 93 could manage, both on overhead and diesel?

Doubt it - they only have 1200 hp diesel power.
The forthcoming Class 99 are more likely - they have 2400 hp diesel power.

Yes, they seem to be a better fit, assuming they can supply hotel power?
They’re also from GBRf, which is perhaps having trouble with the 92s. I
know DB has put most of its remaining 92s into store, citing maintenance
issues.

Having to use Class 66 + 73/9 combinations within Scotland is probably
inefficient as well, especially if they cannot run in multiple and each
loco requires a driver.

I have some kind of vague feeling that the Class 73/9 rebuilds, at least
the ones for CS, had the AAR MU equipment installed. I’ve been unable to
confirm that but looking at them all the 73/9s have a big socket in the
middle of the cab front exactly like the 66s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_working
says AAR system.

Thank you. That information doesn’t seem to be in the Wikpedia article on
the Class 73, but it does mean that a 66 and 73 ought to be able to be
driven with only one crew.

MU working 73/9: AAR system
(59, 66, 67, 68 008-015, 69, 70, and 73/9)

Yes, thank you, I read that. I was responding to Bevan’s concern that they
might need two drivers, but unless there’s some other reason, they don’t.

Sam

[Theo]

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.

Could it be something like a 10 year break clause in the contract? CS are
ringing around to see if anyone will offer a better renewal.

(possibly slightly delayed for one reason or another)

Theo

[Recliner]

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.

Could it be something like a 10 year break clause in the contract? CS are
ringing around to see if anyone will offer a better renewal.
(possibly slightly delayed for one reason or another)

That was my first thought, but the very short notice suggests some other reason. It's not as if there are a multitude
of companies likely to have the right combination of powerful electric locos for mainline use and reasonably lightweight
diesel locos suitable for use on the West Highland Line, both able to supply hotel power.

[Theo]

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.

Could it be something like a 10 year break clause in the contract? CS are
ringing around to see if anyone will offer a better renewal.
(possibly slightly delayed for one reason or another)

That was my first thought, but the very short notice suggests some other
reason. It's not as if there are a multitude of companies likely to have
the right combination of powerful electric locos for mainline use and
reasonably lightweight diesel locos suitable for use on the West Highland
Line, both able to supply hotel power.

If the last contract started 31 March 2015, that's very rapidly approaching
the 10 year mark. Maybe they need to exercise a break clause in the
contract which has certain time limits, eg if they don't then they're locked
in for another contract period. Perhaps they've served notice and then
asked GBRf to tender for a new (cheaper) contract, but they legally need to
open it to others as well.

Advertising the opportunity for the legal minimum length of time can be
because there's a preferred bidder behind the scenes, on the basis that
they're obliged to advertise but don't need to make it easy for competitors.
Perhaps because you know such competitors don't exist.

Theo

[Recliner]

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.

Could it be something like a 10 year break clause in the contract? CS are
ringing around to see if anyone will offer a better renewal.
(possibly slightly delayed for one reason or another)

That was my first thought, but the very short notice suggests some other
reason. It's not as if there are a multitude of companies likely to have
the right combination of powerful electric locos for mainline use and
reasonably lightweight diesel locos suitable for use on the West Highland
Line, both able to supply hotel power.

If the last contract started 31 March 2015, that's very rapidly approaching
the 10 year mark. Maybe they need to exercise a break clause in the
contract which has certain time limits, eg if they don't then they're locked
in for another contract period. Perhaps they've served notice and then
asked GBRf to tender for a new (cheaper) contract, but they legally need to
open it to others as well.

No, the contract was confirmed in 2023 as continuing for another seven years, as originally agreed with Serco:
https://www.railway-technology.com/news/caledonian-sleeper-confirms-gb-railfreight-contract/

Post by Theo
Advertising the opportunity for the legal minimum length of time can be
because there's a preferred bidder behind the scenes, on the basis that
they're obliged to advertise but don't need to make it easy for competitors.
Perhaps because you know such competitors don't exist.

Yes, that was my thought.

Another thought was that CS wants to alter its services, which will impact the loco provider.

[Recliner]

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner
It appears that Caledonian Sleeper is investigating getting a new loco
supplier. I wonder if it’s just trying to get a better deal from GBRf, or
is unhappy enough that it wants to switch to another supplier? It seems to
be in a hurry, or has already made a decision and the tender is just to
legitimise it.

Could it be something like a 10 year break clause in the contract? CS are
ringing around to see if anyone will offer a better renewal.
(possibly slightly delayed for one reason or another)

That was my first thought, but the very short notice suggests some other
reason. It's not as if there are a multitude of companies likely to have
the right combination of powerful electric locos for mainline use and
reasonably lightweight diesel locos suitable for use on the West Highland
Line, both able to supply hotel power.

If the last contract started 31 March 2015, that's very rapidly approaching
the 10 year mark. Maybe they need to exercise a break clause in the
contract which has certain time limits, eg if they don't then they're locked
in for another contract period. Perhaps they've served notice and then
asked GBRf to tender for a new (cheaper) contract, but they legally need to
open it to others as well.
Advertising the opportunity for the legal minimum length of time can be
because there's a preferred bidder behind the scenes, on the basis that
they're obliged to advertise but don't need to make it easy for competitors.
Perhaps because you know such competitors don't exist.

Another theory: CS and GBRf have been discussing switching to 99s, and
provisionally decided to go ahead, before CS (as a public sector
organisation) suddenly realised that this was a big enough contract change
that it was required to go out to tender. It’s unlikely anyone else could
qualify, but they have to be given the opportunity to bid.