Discussion:
are theing so bad here?
(too old to reply)
Tweed
2019-10-18 18:51:48 UTC
Permalink
A letter in Rail:
“Not so nice in Nice

For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.

We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.

The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.

And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.

We took a 45-mile trip into the mountains near Nice on a scenic line with
just three trains a day. Coming back, the middle one was cancelled (which
apparently happens quite frequently) and passengers were left to their own
salvation.

The station was unmanned, with just a departure screen and no instruction
anywhere on what to do next or who to contact. The nearby tourist office
had no official information and could only offer advice. We took the last
bus of the day, which left about an hour later, to the coast and caught a
train from there.

As for a refund, no chance. I was told that SNCF is impenetrable and I
wouldn’t get anywhere.

Our privatised system leaves a lot to be desired. But if the improvements
over the last 25 years would have happened here anyway, why haven’t they in
France?”
Jeremy Double
2019-10-18 21:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
We took a 45-mile trip into the mountains near Nice on a scenic line with
just three trains a day. Coming back, the middle one was cancelled (which
apparently happens quite frequently) and passengers were left to their own
salvation.
The station was unmanned, with just a departure screen and no instruction
anywhere on what to do next or who to contact. The nearby tourist office
had no official information and could only offer advice. We took the last
bus of the day, which left about an hour later, to the coast and caught a
train from there.
As for a refund, no chance. I was told that SNCF is impenetrable and I
wouldn’t get anywhere.
Our privatised system leaves a lot to be desired. But if the improvements
over the last 25 years would have happened here anyway, why haven’t they in
France?”
This seems like cherry picking and jumping to conclusions. The
nationalised railways in Germany and Switzerland are fine in my experience.
--
Jeremy Double
Recliner
2019-10-18 21:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
We took a 45-mile trip into the mountains near Nice on a scenic line with
just three trains a day. Coming back, the middle one was cancelled (which
apparently happens quite frequently) and passengers were left to their own
salvation.
The station was unmanned, with just a departure screen and no instruction
anywhere on what to do next or who to contact. The nearby tourist office
had no official information and could only offer advice. We took the last
bus of the day, which left about an hour later, to the coast and caught a
train from there.
As for a refund, no chance. I was told that SNCF is impenetrable and I
wouldn’t get anywhere.
Our privatised system leaves a lot to be desired. But if the improvements
over the last 25 years would have happened here anyway, why haven’t they in
France?”
This seems like cherry picking and jumping to conclusions. The
nationalised railways in Germany and Switzerland are fine in my experience.
My experiences of DB are consistently negative: late trains, last minute
changes, unsafe working practices. In my experience, the most reliable DB
trains run out of Marylebone.

As for Switzerland, the railways are very good, but many are private: do
you regard them all as nationalised? Do you only include SBB? What about
the BLS?
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-18 22:02:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
We took a 45-mile trip into the mountains near Nice on a scenic line with
just three trains a day. Coming back, the middle one was cancelled (which
apparently happens quite frequently) and passengers were left to their own
salvation.
The station was unmanned, with just a departure screen and no instruction
anywhere on what to do next or who to contact. The nearby tourist office
had no official information and could only offer advice. We took the last
bus of the day, which left about an hour later, to the coast and caught a
train from there.
As for a refund, no chance. I was told that SNCF is impenetrable and I
wouldn’t get anywhere.
Our privatised system leaves a lot to be desired. But if the improvements
over the last 25 years would have happened here anyway, why haven’t they in
France?”
This seems like cherry picking and jumping to conclusions. The
nationalised railways in Germany and Switzerland are fine in my experience.
My experiences of DB are consistently negative: late trains, last minute
changes, unsafe working practices. In my experience, the most reliable DB
trains run out of Marylebone.
As for Switzerland, the railways are very good, but many are private: do
you regard them all as nationalised? Do you only include SBB? What about
the BLS?
The railways the Swiss call 'private' are AIUI mostly funded by local
government, rather than being 'private' as we'd understand it.

Swiss railway punctuality isn’t necessary all that the reputation says it
is; though I’ve rarely had problems, there have been two notable occasions
where a 6 minute delay has caused me and hour late arrival.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-10-19 07:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
We took a 45-mile trip into the mountains near Nice on a scenic line with
just three trains a day. Coming back, the middle one was cancelled (which
apparently happens quite frequently) and passengers were left to their own
salvation.
The station was unmanned, with just a departure screen and no instruction
anywhere on what to do next or who to contact. The nearby tourist office
had no official information and could only offer advice. We took the last
bus of the day, which left about an hour later, to the coast and caught a
train from there.
As for a refund, no chance. I was told that SNCF is impenetrable and I
wouldn’t get anywhere.
Our privatised system leaves a lot to be desired. But if the improvements
over the last 25 years would have happened here anyway, why haven’t they in
France?”
This seems like cherry picking and jumping to conclusions. The
nationalised railways in Germany and Switzerland are fine in my experience.
My experiences of DB are consistently negative: late trains, last minute
changes, unsafe working practices. In my experience, the most reliable DB
trains run out of Marylebone.
As for Switzerland, the railways are very good, but many are private: do
you regard them all as nationalised? Do you only include SBB? What about
the BLS?
DB got me to Hamburg 30 minutes late on 4th October and Copenhagen 40
minutes late two days later. I also got caught up in a political strike
in Norway and arrived 40 minutes late in Oslo.
Jeremy Double
2019-10-19 17:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
We took a 45-mile trip into the mountains near Nice on a scenic line with
just three trains a day. Coming back, the middle one was cancelled (which
apparently happens quite frequently) and passengers were left to their own
salvation.
The station was unmanned, with just a departure screen and no instruction
anywhere on what to do next or who to contact. The nearby tourist office
had no official information and could only offer advice. We took the last
bus of the day, which left about an hour later, to the coast and caught a
train from there.
As for a refund, no chance. I was told that SNCF is impenetrable and I
wouldn’t get anywhere.
Our privatised system leaves a lot to be desired. But if the improvements
over the last 25 years would have happened here anyway, why haven’t they in
France?”
This seems like cherry picking and jumping to conclusions. The
nationalised railways in Germany and Switzerland are fine in my experience.
My experiences of DB are consistently negative: late trains, last minute
changes, unsafe working practices. In my experience, the most reliable DB
trains run out of Marylebone.
They tend to have a better record than the privatised British railways
network, IMX. But my experience is most often with Northern, TransPennine,
Cross Country and whoever is currently running the East Coast franchise. I
suspect that in both cases, the passengers’ experiences depend on what part
of the country you are travelling in.
Post by Recliner
As for Switzerland, the railways are very good, but many are private: do
you regard them all as nationalised? Do you only include SBB? What about
the BLS?
Most of the “private” railways in Switzerland that are public transport
rather than tourist rides (e.g. the BLS and the RhB) have majority
ownership from the federal government and/or the cantons, so I regard them
as being tantamount to being
nationalised.
--
Jeremy Double
Recliner
2019-10-19 20:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Recliner
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
We took a 45-mile trip into the mountains near Nice on a scenic line with
just three trains a day. Coming back, the middle one was cancelled (which
apparently happens quite frequently) and passengers were left to their own
salvation.
The station was unmanned, with just a departure screen and no instruction
anywhere on what to do next or who to contact. The nearby tourist office
had no official information and could only offer advice. We took the last
bus of the day, which left about an hour later, to the coast and caught a
train from there.
As for a refund, no chance. I was told that SNCF is impenetrable and I
wouldn’t get anywhere.
Our privatised system leaves a lot to be desired. But if the improvements
over the last 25 years would have happened here anyway, why haven’t they in
France?”
This seems like cherry picking and jumping to conclusions. The
nationalised railways in Germany and Switzerland are fine in my experience.
My experiences of DB are consistently negative: late trains, last minute
changes, unsafe working practices. In my experience, the most reliable DB
trains run out of Marylebone.
They tend to have a better record than the privatised British railways
network, IMX. But my experience is most often with Northern, TransPennine,
Cross Country and whoever is currently running the East Coast franchise. I
suspect that in both cases, the passengers’ experiences depend on what part
of the country you are travelling in.
Of those four, two are DB, and one is HMG, so hardly examples of the
privatised British railways.
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Recliner
As for Switzerland, the railways are very good, but many are private: do
you regard them all as nationalised? Do you only include SBB? What about
the BLS?
Most of the “private” railways in Switzerland that are public transport
rather than tourist rides (e.g. the BLS and the RhB) have majority
ownership from the federal government and/or the cantons, so I regard them
as being tantamount to being nationalised.
Yes, agreed, but still run more like private companies.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-20 04:09:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Recliner
As for Switzerland, the railways are very good, but many are private: do
you regard them all as nationalised? Do you only include SBB? What about
the BLS?
Most of the “private” railways in Switzerland that are public transport
rather than tourist rides (e.g. the BLS and the RhB) have majority
ownership from the federal government and/or the cantons, so I regard them
as being tantamount to being nationalised.
Yes, agreed, but still run more like private companies.
I disagree; in terms of things like infrastructure refurbishment and stock
replacement, they’re very much subject to the whims of local government
budgetary constraints (unlike the few actual private railways).


Anna Noyd-Dryver
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-10-19 23:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Recliner
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
We took a 45-mile trip into the mountains near Nice on a scenic line with
just three trains a day. Coming back, the middle one was cancelled (which
apparently happens quite frequently) and passengers were left to their own
salvation.
The station was unmanned, with just a departure screen and no instruction
anywhere on what to do next or who to contact. The nearby tourist office
had no official information and could only offer advice. We took the last
bus of the day, which left about an hour later, to the coast and caught a
train from there.
As for a refund, no chance. I was told that SNCF is impenetrable and I
wouldn’t get anywhere.
Our privatised system leaves a lot to be desired. But if the improvements
over the last 25 years would have happened here anyway, why haven’t they in
France?”
This seems like cherry picking and jumping to conclusions. The
nationalised railways in Germany and Switzerland are fine in my experience.
My experiences of DB are consistently negative: late trains, last minute
changes, unsafe working practices. In my experience, the most reliable DB
trains run out of Marylebone.
They tend to have a better record than the privatised British railways
network, IMX. But my experience is most often with Northern, TransPennine,
Cross Country and whoever is currently running the East Coast franchise. I
suspect that in both cases, the passengers’ experiences depend on what part
of the country you are travelling in.
I use two Cross Country routes every so often.

Firstly. Cardiff to Chepstow, Cheltenham, or Birmingham. This service
usually runs well and the trolley services has never let me down.
Conversely they are overcrowded if short formed.

Secondly. The Cheltenham to West Country service voyagers can be
overcrowded at any stage of the journey, even in Cornwall. Late running
usually results in a turn back short of destination. Voyagers have to
run to a tide table at Dawlish during inclement weather.

I have used XC twice beyond Birmingham over the past two years but had
the same problem on both journeys. Birmingham to March and Winchester
to York. Both journeys started with seat reservations suspended. The
former due to tight turnaround when there wasn't time to place the
reservation cards. However the guard tried to enforce seat reservations
even without the reservation cards in place. My complaint about this
got me a £5 voucher. The latter journey had no reservations on
departure from Winchester and the displays were blank. Problems started
at Reading when the reservations magically appeared. There wasn't any
real problem until after Birmingham when the new guard announced he
would enforce reservations. I got kicked out of the seat I was using so
decided to claim my seat but the occupant refused to move. I therefore
had to get the (most unhelpful) guard to get my seat vacated. I got two
£5 vouchers this time.

Looking at my letters of complaint I had complained particularly
bitterly about reservations being reinstated during the journey and
remember that this point was not covered in my reply. Presumably they
don't have a stock answer for this!
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Recliner
As for Switzerland, the railways are very good, but many are private: do
you regard them all as nationalised? Do you only include SBB? What about
the BLS?
Most of the “private” railways in Switzerland that are public transport
rather than tourist rides (e.g. the BLS and the RhB) have majority
ownership from the federal government and/or the cantons, so I regard them
as being tantamount to being
nationalised.
John Levine
2019-10-19 02:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Richard
2019-10-22 20:03:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.

Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.

To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.

Richard.
Recliner
2019-10-22 22:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Marland
2019-10-22 23:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Has Glasgow backtracked? their new trains were going to be unmanned though
driverless initially.


GH
Recliner
2019-10-22 23:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Has Glasgow backtracked? their new trains were going to be unmanned though
driverless initially.
Will they not have any other staff member on board? I've lost track.
Marland
2019-10-23 00:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Has Glasgow backtracked? their new trains were going to be unmanned though
driverless initially.
Will they not have any other staff member on board? I've lost track.
So have I which is why I asked

When the new stock was announced there were reports like this that were
mentioned.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/21/britains-first-unmanned-trains-spark-safety-row-worries-raised/

2021 isn’t that far away, some political debates have been longer.
Mind you by then they may well be on the way to being Scotlands first
unmanned trains not the UK’s


GH
U***@web.de
2019-10-23 14:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
The French also have unmanned underground trains
One of them missed a couple of stops in Paris.
Basil Jet
2019-10-23 18:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
The Coctails - 1996 - The Coctails
Graeme Wall
2019-10-23 18:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France.  I wonder how
much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid!  Still
bitter.  I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times.  Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses.  All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way.  Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Correct, also the one at Stansted.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2019-10-23 20:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France.  I wonder how
much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid!  Still
bitter.  I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times.  Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses.  All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way.  Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Correct, also the one at Stansted.
Yes, and I expect the new Luton one will be as well.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-24 05:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France.  I wonder how
much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid!  Still
bitter.  I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times.  Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses.  All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way.  Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Correct, also the one at Stansted.
Yes, and I expect the new Luton one will be as well.
The Birmingham International one is also driverless.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2019-10-24 07:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Correct, also the one at Stansted.
Yes, and I expect the new Luton one will be as well.
The Birmingham International one is also driverless.
Not just driverless, it's also unmanned.
--
Roland Perry
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-24 12:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Correct, also the one at Stansted.
Yes, and I expect the new Luton one will be as well.
The Birmingham International one is also driverless.
Not just driverless, it's also unmanned.
Yes, that's what I meant, I realised after posting that I hadn't been
specific enough!


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2019-10-23 19:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Yes, airport shuttles around the world usually are, but I was thinking of
longer distance trains.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-24 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Yes, airport shuttles around the world usually are, but I was thinking of
longer distance trains.
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is? And
do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so far)


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2019-10-24 07:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is? And
do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so far)
The transits around DFW are quite long (there's six separate terminals
to negotiate).

The Lausanne M2 is automated so no driver (but I don't know if its also
unmanned).
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-10-24 07:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is? And
do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so far)
The transits around DFW are quite long (there's six separate terminals
to negotiate).
The Lausanne M2 is automated so no driver (but I don't know if its also
unmanned).
Some of the VAL systems are quite long in metro terms.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-24 17:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is? And
do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so far)
The transits around DFW are quite long (there's six separate terminals
to negotiate).
The Lausanne M2 is automated so no driver (but I don't know if its also
unmanned).
Yes it is. It’s apparently (though I don’t have a cite for this, only a
recollection of either reading it or being told it) also one step further
than most other systems in that rather than the service being regulated (in
terms of holding cars at stations for a few moments longer in order to
prevent bunching, or turning cars short during disruption) from a central
control unit, the cars make their own decisions on this - they all know
where the other cars are and behave in a manner to make the service run
smoothly.

The city centre end of the line has a fascinating history - built as two
separate parallel funiculars of different lengths but linked by sidings and
capable of moving freight cars, replaced by two separate parallel rack
railways of different lengths (basically one all the way from lake shore to
city centre via the station, and another covering just the station to city
centre) and now a rubber-tyred metro on the same gradient, with a
significant extension beyond the previous city-centre terminus.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
r***@gmail.com
2019-10-24 08:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Yes, airport shuttles around the world usually are, but I was thinking of
longer distance trains.
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is?
And do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so
far)
One candidate has to be Vancouver Skytrain. 3 lines, 53 stations, 50 route miles. Wikipedia suggests, "With the opening of the Evergreen Extension on December 2, 2016, SkyTrain became the longest rapid transit system in Canada and the longest fully automated driverless system in the world. The total lengths of the Singapore MRT's automated lines have since surpassed those of SkyTrain."

Robin
Recliner
2019-10-24 08:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Yes, airport shuttles around the world usually are, but I was thinking of
longer distance trains.
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is?
And do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so
far)
One candidate has to be Vancouver Skytrain. 3 lines, 53 stations, 50
route miles. Wikipedia suggests, "With the opening of the Evergreen
Extension on December 2, 2016, SkyTrain became the longest rapid transit
system in Canada and the longest fully automated driverless system in the
world. The total lengths of the Singapore MRT's automated lines have
since surpassed those of SkyTrain."
Are they both unmanned, as well as driverless? Don't the MRT trains need
chewing gun monitors?
r***@gmail.com
2019-10-24 08:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@gmail.com
One candidate has to be Vancouver Skytrain. 3 lines, 53 stations, 50
route miles. Wikipedia suggests, "With the opening of the Evergreen
Extension on December 2, 2016, SkyTrain became the longest rapid transit
system in Canada and the longest fully automated driverless system in the
world. The total lengths of the Singapore MRT's automated lines have
since surpassed those of SkyTrain."
Are they both unmanned, as well as driverless? Don't the MRT trains need
chewing gun monitors?
I can't speak for Singapore, but Skytrain is unmanned, and has been since the system opened in 1986.

Robin
puffernutter
2019-10-24 09:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@gmail.com
One candidate has to be Vancouver Skytrain. 3 lines, 53 stations, 50
route miles. Wikipedia suggests, "With the opening of the Evergreen
Extension on December 2, 2016, SkyTrain became the longest rapid transit
system in Canada and the longest fully automated driverless system in the
world. The total lengths of the Singapore MRT's automated lines have
since surpassed those of SkyTrain."
Are they both unmanned, as well as driverless? Don't the MRT trains need
chewing gun monitors?
I can't speak for Singapore, but Skytrain is unmanned, and has been since the system opened in 1986.
Robin
Need to consider the GOA rather than Unmanned or Driverless!

GoA 0 is on-sight train operation, similar to a tram running in street traffic. (Croydon, Manchester, Birmingham Trams)

GoA 1 is manual train operation where a train driver controls starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies or sudden diversions. (Conventional Railway)

GoA 2 is semi-automatic train operation (STO) where starting and stopping is automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the train if needed and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2. (e.g. Victoria Line, Jubilee Line)

GoA 3 is driverless train operation (DTO) where starting and stopping are automated but a train attendant operates the doors and drives the train in case of emergencies. (e.g. DLR)

GoA 4 is unattended train operation (UTO) where starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies are fully automated without any on-train staff. (e.g.Airport People Movers)

Puffernutter
r***@gmail.com
2019-10-24 09:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by puffernutter
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@gmail.com
One candidate has to be Vancouver Skytrain. 3 lines, 53 stations, 50
route miles. Wikipedia suggests, "With the opening of the Evergreen
Extension on December 2, 2016, SkyTrain became the longest rapid transit
system in Canada and the longest fully automated driverless system in the
world. The total lengths of the Singapore MRT's automated lines have
since surpassed those of SkyTrain."
Are they both unmanned, as well as driverless? Don't the MRT trains need
chewing gun monitors?
I can't speak for Singapore, but Skytrain is unmanned, and has been since the system opened in 1986.
Robin
Need to consider the GOA rather than Unmanned or Driverless!
GoA 0 is on-sight train operation, similar to a tram running in street traffic. (Croydon, Manchester, Birmingham Trams)
GoA 1 is manual train operation where a train driver controls starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies or sudden diversions. (Conventional Railway)
GoA 2 is semi-automatic train operation (STO) where starting and stopping is automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the train if needed and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2. (e.g. Victoria Line, Jubilee Line)
GoA 3 is driverless train operation (DTO) where starting and stopping are automated but a train attendant operates the doors and drives the train in case of emergencies. (e.g. DLR)
GoA 4 is unattended train operation (UTO) where starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies are fully automated without any on-train staff. (e.g.Airport People Movers)
Only one of those is unmanned, ie no member of staff on board the train. That's how Skytrain has operated since 1986.

Robin
Roland Perry
2019-10-24 10:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by puffernutter
GoA 2 is semi-automatic train operation (STO) where starting and stopping is automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the train if
needed and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2. (e.g. Victoria Line, Jubilee Line)
GoA 3 is driverless train operation (DTO) where starting and stopping are automated but a train attendant operates the doors and drives the
train in case of emergencies. (e.g. DLR)
GoA 4 is unattended train operation (UTO) where starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies are fully automated
without any on-train staff. (e.g.Airport People Movers)
Where does a GoA 4, but with grippers, fit. GoA 3.5?
--
Roland Perry
Rolf Mantel
2019-10-24 10:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by puffernutter
GoA 2 is semi-automatic train operation (STO) where starting and
stopping is automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the
train if
needed and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2. (e.g.
Victoria Line, Jubilee Line)
GoA 3 is driverless train operation (DTO) where starting and stopping
are automated but a train attendant operates the doors and drives the
train in case of emergencies. (e.g. DLR)
GoA 4 is unattended train operation (UTO) where starting and stopping,
operation of doors and handling of emergencies are fully automated
without any on-train staff. (e.g.Airport People Movers)
Where does a GoA 4, but with grippers, fit. GoA 3.5?
If the gripper comes through once a day, it's GoA 3.99, if he checks
regularly it's 3.1 ;-)
Graeme Wall
2019-10-24 12:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by puffernutter
GoA 2 is semi-automatic train operation (STO) where starting and
stopping is automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the
train if
needed and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2. (e.g.
Victoria Line, Jubilee Line)
GoA 3 is driverless train operation (DTO) where starting and stopping
are automated but a train attendant operates the doors and drives the
train in case of emergencies. (e.g. DLR)
GoA 4 is unattended train operation (UTO) where starting and stopping,
operation of doors and handling of emergencies are fully automated
without any on-train staff. (e.g.Airport People Movers)
Where does a GoA 4, but with grippers, fit. GoA 3.5?
Never seen a gripper at Stansted ;-)
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-10-24 13:47:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by puffernutter
GoA 2 is semi-automatic train operation (STO) where starting and
stopping is automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the
train if
needed and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2. (e.g.
Victoria Line, Jubilee Line)
GoA 3 is driverless train operation (DTO) where starting and
stopping are automated but a train attendant operates the doors and
drives the
train in case of emergencies. (e.g. DLR)
GoA 4 is unattended train operation (UTO) where starting and
stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies are fully
automated
without any on-train staff. (e.g.Airport People Movers)
Where does a GoA 4, but with grippers, fit. GoA 3.5?
Never seen a gripper at Stansted ;-)
But you might perhaps expect one at Lausanne.
--
Roland Perry
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-24 19:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by puffernutter
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@gmail.com
One candidate has to be Vancouver Skytrain. 3 lines, 53 stations, 50
route miles. Wikipedia suggests, "With the opening of the Evergreen
Extension on December 2, 2016, SkyTrain became the longest rapid transit
system in Canada and the longest fully automated driverless system in the
world. The total lengths of the Singapore MRT's automated lines have
since surpassed those of SkyTrain."
Are they both unmanned, as well as driverless? Don't the MRT trains need
chewing gun monitors?
I can't speak for Singapore, but Skytrain is unmanned, and has been
since the system opened in 1986.
Robin
Need to consider the GOA rather than Unmanned or Driverless!
GoA 0 is on-sight train operation, similar to a tram running in street
traffic. (Croydon, Manchester, Birmingham Trams)
GoA 1 is manual train operation where a train driver controls starting
and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies or sudden
diversions. (Conventional Railway)
GoA 2 is semi-automatic train operation (STO) where starting and stopping
is automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the train if needed
and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2. (e.g. Victoria Line, Jubilee Line)
GoA 3 is driverless train operation (DTO) where starting and stopping are
automated but a train attendant operates the doors and drives the train
in case of emergencies. (e.g. DLR)
GoA 4 is unattended train operation (UTO) where starting and stopping,
operation of doors and handling of emergencies are fully automated
without any on-train staff. (e.g.Airport People Movers)
"Unmanned" is clearly GoA4.

Though your GoA table doesn’t seem to account for the subset of funiculars
which don't have any staff on the car, but the control is manual rather
than automated (ie there's a person in the control room directly
controlling the movement of the vehicles).


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2019-10-24 09:43:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@gmail.com
One candidate has to be Vancouver Skytrain. 3 lines, 53 stations, 50
route miles. Wikipedia suggests, "With the opening of the Evergreen
Extension on December 2, 2016, SkyTrain became the longest rapid transit
system in Canada and the longest fully automated driverless system in the
world. The total lengths of the Singapore MRT's automated lines have
since surpassed those of SkyTrain."
Are they both unmanned, as well as driverless? Don't the MRT trains need
chewing gun monitors?
I can't speak for Singapore, but Skytrain is unmanned, and has been since
the system opened in 1986.
I've travelled on it, and know it's driverless, but wasn't sure if they had
anyone on board to check tickets, close the doors, etc.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-24 17:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Yes, airport shuttles around the world usually are, but I was thinking of
longer distance trains.
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is?
And do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so
far)
One candidate has to be Vancouver Skytrain. 3 lines, 53 stations, 50
route miles. Wikipedia suggests, "With the opening of the Evergreen
Extension on December 2, 2016, SkyTrain became the longest rapid transit
system in Canada and the longest fully automated driverless system in the
world. The total lengths of the Singapore MRT's automated lines have
since surpassed those of SkyTrain."
Are they both unmanned, as well as driverless? Don't the MRT trains need
chewing gun monitors?
I didn’t see any staff on board. Neither did I see any 'chewing gum
monitors' anywhere in Singapore (or if there were I didn't notice them),
nor any signs about chewing gum (it might have been mentioned on the plane
entertainment system but I’m not sure). It’s certainly not sold in shops
there though (although things called 'chewy' or similar, from the usual
chewing gum brands, are sold - but they're all of the sort which dissolve
fully in your mouth).


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2019-10-24 08:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 02:09:30 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
Post by John Levine
Post by Tweed
And whereas we can claim compensation for trains running late, forget that
in France.
I've gotten compensation for late trains in France. I wonder how much of
the rest of the article is correct.
I was offered it, but had to give my ticket in to get it paid! Still
bitter. I find French industries quite good at customer relations.
Apart from that, certainly it's two networks stuck together; the TGV
network seems to run very well, TER sometimes not, with the Paris area
efficient, but grossly crowded at times. Frequencies are sparse on
many of the branch lines, so a cancellation is going to have a much
greater effect, and many lines and it seems individual trains are
semi-permanently replaced by buses. All the staff I've met want it to
work, though, it just needs (even) more money.
To me it's odd to mention driver-only operation of a train as negative
in this content (there are others!) given how many Swiss and German
trains are operated the same way. Germany even thinks it's OK to have
an underground station with no staff, and I don't think that would
ever happen in France, or most other countries.
The French also have unmanned underground trains, something that seems
unlikely any time soon here.
Surely the Gatwick shuttle to the north terminal is an unmanned train.
I've never been on the T5 satellite shuttle, but I think that is
unmanned and underground.
Yes, airport shuttles around the world usually are, but I was thinking of
longer distance trains.
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is? And
do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so far)
Yes, it would seem so, but I was thinking more of proper trains, not
rubber-tyred, short distance shuttles. Of course, talking of shuttles, many
funicular cars are unmanned, typically controlled from the upper station.
Arthur Figgis
2019-10-24 16:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I wonder what the longest and fastest unmanned railway in the world is? And
do we count rubber-tyre systems in this (we appear to be doing, so far)
Yes, it would seem so, but I was thinking more of proper trains, not
rubber-tyred, short distance shuttles. Of course, talking of shuttles, many
funicular cars are unmanned, typically controlled from the upper station.
I *think* there are some lines in China which are described as metros
but more like suburban railways, and which are (at least) driverless and
quite fast. I don't know if they person them, or how accurate reports of
speed and automation are.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Clank
2019-10-19 07:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
[...]
Nice station is an absolute dump and its environs reminiscent of a
demilitarised zone, so I find it quite believable.

Meanwhile, echoing what Recliner said up there, I've been on plenty of
delayed DB trains - and plenty of delayed trains on the saintly Swiss
network as well.

NS's legendary holding of trains for connections is great if you have to
make a connection, but a right ballache of you actually don't, and the
speed of Dutch trains makes Romania's network feel high speed... And the
only time I've nearly missed a flight because of public transport was
because of a Belgian airport express that broke down, sat motionless for 45
minutes with zero public information given, and then eventually limped back
to its origin...


We can all pick and choose the good and the bad, but it's certainly true to
say "be careful what you wish for."


(Here in RO, I'd give my eye teeth for the UK timetable frequency, but it
would mean sacrificing reliability - and I wouldn't swap any of our
mainline coaching stock for your IC trains. But UK's suburban fleet (e.g.
Electrostars) is, in general, outstanding... Mind, I certainly wouldn't
want to pay what you pay.)
U***@web.de
2019-10-19 10:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour
They used to run Paris Transilien trains in the South
during high summer season.

Found for Avignon - Cerbère: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_5600#Services_anciennement_assurés

Others during high winter season: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_20500#Services_anciennement_assurés
Trolleybus
2019-10-19 16:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by U***@web.de
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour
They used to run Paris Transilien trains in the South
during high summer season.
I used to go to Cannes every year in Jan/Feb for the GSM conference.
I'd be staying in Nice so used the train daily. Most trains were local
but one evening the destination was Calais. A very long way to travel
on a conventional service, and I was nmore careful than usual to stay
awake.
Post by U***@web.de
Found for Avignon - Cerbère: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_5600#Services_anciennement_assurés
Others during high winter season: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_20500#Services_anciennement_assurés
tim...
2019-10-19 16:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
“Not so nice in Nice
For those clamouring to have our railways renationalised, I would suggest
that they take a trip to France to see what they would end up with.
We spent a week in Nice in June/July, using the busy line along the French
Riviera where ten-car double-deck commuter trains run every half-hour, but
with NO guards or train staff. In fact, there was no staff presence on any
platform (except Monaco) - not even at the ticket barriers at Nice.
The trains ran mainly to time but were crowded and scruffy, often with
standing room only. Longdistance trains are a shadow of what used to run a
few years ago, and freight seems to be nonexistent. Elsewhere in France,
rural lines are being closed or run down.
rural lines in France always (in my adulthood) have been run down and
sparsely used

tim
Basil Jet
2019-10-20 10:17:37 UTC
Permalink
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching, and if not, why not?
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Tiny Ruins - 2019 - Olympic Girls
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-20 12:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching, and if not, why not?
In terms of duplicate main lines, I think most other countries managed to
avoid creating them in the first place.

In terms of branch lines, I suspect many closed in many countries over the
same time period, though whether there was a co-ordinated scheme of
closures as in the UK I couldn’t say. The Schweers&Wall atlas (which gives
opening and closure dates) for Switzerland, for example, shows the closure
of many branches and tramways during the 1950s-1970s.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2019-10-20 12:40:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Basil Jet
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching, and if not, why not?
In terms of duplicate main lines, I think most other countries managed to
avoid creating them in the first place.
In terms of branch lines, I suspect many closed in many countries over the
same time period, though whether there was a co-ordinated scheme of
closures as in the UK I couldn’t say. The Schweers&Wall atlas (which gives
opening and closure dates) for Switzerland, for example, shows the closure
of many branches and tramways during the 1950s-1970s.
I get the impression, at least in some countries, that low-usage lines
weren't formally closed, but simply disused and then mothballed.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-20 14:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Basil Jet
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching, and if not, why not?
In terms of duplicate main lines, I think most other countries managed to
avoid creating them in the first place.
In terms of branch lines, I suspect many closed in many countries over the
same time period, though whether there was a co-ordinated scheme of
closures as in the UK I couldn’t say. The Schweers&Wall atlas (which gives
opening and closure dates) for Switzerland, for example, shows the closure
of many branches and tramways during the 1950s-1970s.
I get the impression, at least in some countries, that low-usage lines
weren't formally closed, but simply disused and then mothballed.
I’ve encountered several lines in France which meet that description.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Marland
2019-10-20 14:48:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Basil Jet
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching, and if not, why not?
In terms of duplicate main lines, I think most other countries managed to
avoid creating them in the first place.
In terms of branch lines, I suspect many closed in many countries over the
same time period, though whether there was a co-ordinated scheme of
closures as in the UK I couldn’t say. The Schweers&Wall atlas (which gives
opening and closure dates) for Switzerland, for example, shows the closure
of many branches and tramways during the 1950s-1970s.
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
I believe that when the vincinal network was in place Belgium had the
highest density of railed transport routes of any other country in Europe.
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
I get the impression, at least in some countries, that low-usage lines
weren't formally closed, but simply disused and then mothballed.
I’ve encountered several lines in France which meet that description.
Sometime on this group over the years I may have mentioned that one of my
childhood railway books was called the Railway Lovers Companion published
sometime in the early 1960’s, this was a compendium of stories some factual
others fictional from previously published other publications.
One of the factual ones was a short description of a rail journey across
France circa 1953 and the author made a point of describing that he
observed many rusty weed covered lines peeling away from the main lines.
I cannot recall the exact wording now but the way the a writer presented
his report was that France by allowing these lines to fall into disuse and
closure was demeaning itself as a nation and that Great Britain would be
unlikely to to do the same, I wonder what his thoughts were a little over a
decade later when there recommendations of the Beeching Report were
undertaken.

GH
Arthur Figgis
2019-10-21 17:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
Ireland, sort of?
Post by Marland
I believe that when the vincinal network was in place Belgium had the
highest density of railed transport routes of any other country in Europe.
Having seen it in a photo, I looked up details of a quite extensive 60
cm gauge network on the coast of Normandy. A train ran on the evening of
5 June 1944, but the first train the next morning was somewhat overtaken
by world events, and what was left of the railway afterwards never
reopened.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Marland
2019-10-21 18:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Marland
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
Ireland, sort of?
In the geographical north I suppose it was.

Could also be regarded as an indication that if a large broad gauge was
chosen in a country for its main network then a secondary narrow gauge
invitable followed with Ireland,Spain, Portugal India and some South
American states all doing so. Although perhaps the difficulty of building
less elaborately engineered Railways
in Great Britain was responsible and the relaxation of requirements by the
Light Railway Act in 1896 came too late for one to develop ,almost every
line built under that legislation struggled to justify their construction
with road motor transport becoming viable within a couple of decades.

GH
Andrew Clarke
2019-10-21 21:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Marland
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
Ireland, sort of?
In the geographical north I suppose it was.
Could also be regarded as an indication that if a large broad gauge was
chosen in a country for its main network then a secondary narrow gauge
invitable followed with Ireland,Spain, Portugal India and some South
American states all doing so. Although perhaps the difficulty of building
less elaborately engineered Railways
in Great Britain was responsible and the relaxation of requirements by the
Light Railway Act in 1896 came too late for one to develop ,almost every
line built under that legislation struggled to justify their construction
with road motor transport becoming viable within a couple of decades.
GH
In Australia, the poorer and less populated states chose Cape gauge from the beginning. Irish gauge South Australia used Cape gauge lines in its more desolate areas in a failed attempt to promote further settlement. Perhaps the closest we got to Light Railways Act lines was in Victoria, where four 2' 6" gauge rural lines were built around the turn of the twentieth century.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
U***@web.de
2019-10-22 10:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Marland
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
Ireland, sort of?
In the geographical north I suppose it was.
Could also be regarded as an indication that if a large broad gauge was
chosen in a country for its main network then a secondary narrow gauge
invitable followed with Ireland,Spain, Portugal India and some South
American states all doing so. Although perhaps the difficulty of building
less elaborately engineered Railways
in Great Britain was responsible and the relaxation of requirements by the
Light Railway Act in 1896 came too late for one to develop ,almost every
line built under that legislation struggled to justify their construction
with road motor transport becoming viable within a couple of decades.
There was a Small Railway Act in Prussia for 1435 mm branch lines.
r***@gmail.com
2019-10-22 11:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by U***@web.de
Post by Marland
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Marland
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
Ireland, sort of?
In the geographical north I suppose it was.
Could also be regarded as an indication that if a large broad gauge was
chosen in a country for its main network then a secondary narrow gauge
invitable followed with Ireland,Spain, Portugal India and some South
American states all doing so. Although perhaps the difficulty of building
less elaborately engineered Railways
in Great Britain was responsible and the relaxation of requirements by the
Light Railway Act in 1896 came too late for one to develop ,almost every
line built under that legislation struggled to justify their construction
with road motor transport becoming viable within a couple of decades.
There was a Small Railway Act in Prussia for 1435 mm branch lines.
Was Oberst Stefans in building them?

Robin
U***@web.de
2019-10-22 15:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by U***@web.de
Post by Marland
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Marland
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
Ireland, sort of?
In the geographical north I suppose it was.
Could also be regarded as an indication that if a large broad gauge was
chosen in a country for its main network then a secondary narrow gauge
invitable followed with Ireland,Spain, Portugal India and some South
American states all doing so. Although perhaps the difficulty of building
less elaborately engineered Railways
in Great Britain was responsible and the relaxation of requirements by the
Light Railway Act in 1896 came too late for one to develop ,almost every
line built under that legislation struggled to justify their construction
with road motor transport becoming viable within a couple of decades.
There was a Small Railway Act in Prussia for 1435 mm branch lines.
Was Oberst Stefans in building them?
Dunno. Read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinbahn
Marland
2019-10-22 16:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by U***@web.de
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by U***@web.de
Post by Marland
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Marland
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
Ireland, sort of?
In the geographical north I suppose it was.
Could also be regarded as an indication that if a large broad gauge was
chosen in a country for its main network then a secondary narrow gauge
invitable followed with Ireland,Spain, Portugal India and some South
American states all doing so. Although perhaps the difficulty of building
less elaborately engineered Railways
in Great Britain was responsible and the relaxation of requirements by the
Light Railway Act in 1896 came too late for one to develop ,almost every
line built under that legislation struggled to justify their construction
with road motor transport becoming viable within a couple of decades.
There was a Small Railway Act in Prussia for 1435 mm branch lines.
Was Oberst Stefans in building them?
Dunno. Read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinbahn
Rauschen.



GH
U***@web.de
2019-10-22 10:45:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Marland
Belgium also lost its vincinal network of tramway/light railways apart
from the coastal tramway,
the UK never had a similar network of secondary lines .
Ireland, sort of?
Post by Marland
I believe that when the vincinal network was in place Belgium had the
highest density of railed transport routes of any other country in Europe.
Having seen it in a photo, I looked up details of a quite extensive 60
cm gauge network on the coast of Normandy. A train ran on the evening of
5 June 1944, but the first train the next morning was somewhat overtaken
by world events, and what was left of the railway afterwards never
reopened.
Maybe such special railway for military purposes?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heeresfeldbahn
Andrew Clarke
2019-10-20 20:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Basil Jet
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching, and if not, why not?
In terms of duplicate main lines, I think most other countries managed to
avoid creating them in the first place.
In terms of branch lines, I suspect many closed in many countries over the
same time period, though whether there was a co-ordinated scheme of
closures as in the UK I couldn’t say. The Schweers&Wall atlas (which gives
opening and closure dates) for Switzerland, for example, shows the closure
of many branches and tramways during the 1950s-1970s.
I get the impression, at least in some countries, that low-usage lines
weren't formally closed, but simply disused and then mothballed.
Or turned into wheat lines ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
U***@web.de
2019-10-20 16:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
In terms of duplicate main lines, I think most other countries managed to
avoid creating them in the first place.
But not always: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osterath%E2%80%93Dortmund_S%C3%BCd_railway
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-25 17:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Basil Jet
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching, and if not, why not?
In terms of duplicate main lines, I think most other countries managed to
avoid creating them in the first place.
In terms of branch lines, I suspect many closed in many countries over the
same time period, though whether there was a co-ordinated scheme of
closures as in the UK I couldn’t say. The Schweers&Wall atlas (which gives
opening and closure dates) for Switzerland, for example, shows the closure
of many branches and tramways during the 1950s-1970s.
Further thought: did other countries, over the same timescale, carry out
the second parts of british railway cutbacks - closing intermediate
stations on lines which remained open, and singling long sections of rural
double track?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
U***@web.de
2019-10-26 07:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Basil Jet
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching, and if not, why not?
In terms of duplicate main lines, I think most other countries managed to
avoid creating them in the first place.
In terms of branch lines, I suspect many closed in many countries over the
same time period, though whether there was a co-ordinated scheme of
closures as in the UK I couldn’t say. The Schweers&Wall atlas (which gives
opening and closure dates) for Switzerland, for example, shows the closure
of many branches and tramways during the 1950s-1970s.
Further thought: did other countries, over the same timescale, carry out
the second parts of british railway cutbacks - closing intermediate
stations on lines which remained open,
Yes. See Schleswig-Holstein (Germany).
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
and singling long sections of rural
double track?
Yes, see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_ehemals_zweigleisigen_Eisenbahnstrecken
(Bundesbahn, after French took away 2nd track from other lines).

U***@web.de
2019-10-20 12:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
On 19/10/2019 17:17, tim... wrote:>> rural lines in France always (in my
adulthood) have been run down and > sparsely used
Did other countries have a Beeching
Massive closedown of RENFE lines in Spain in 1984,
without telling whose idea it was:
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Nacional_de_los_Ferrocarriles_Espa%C3%B1oles#1960-1989
Cuno Vroegop
2019-10-24 06:07:13 UTC
Permalink
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