Discussion:
OT Airfreight
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Marland
2021-02-22 14:02:03 UTC
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The missus though a now long away from working as a shipping agent still
keeps an eye on the trade press(online) , one snippet she mentioned is the
large shipping group CMA-CGM has established an air cargo division
operating by another party four A330-200 freighters formerly operated by
Quatar Airways.
Some of the commentary on the deal suggests they may not be the best choice
of aircraft for what they want to do being more suited for operators like
DHL who move numerous smaller packages
quickly than rather than heavier items, but heavy freight machines like
747 freighters are hard to obtain at the moment.

Notably no one has suggested using A380’s converted or otherwise. Is Roland
ex directory perhaps?

Another thing I did not realise was happening is that though passenger
aviation is well down worldwide air freight like sea freight has soared
(NPI) to the extent that some freight hubs have been overwhelmed like the
container ports.
Another reason why peoples purchases of cheap tat on ebay from China may be
taking longer to arrive than it did.

GH
Recliner
2021-02-22 14:16:51 UTC
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Post by Marland
The missus though a now long away from working as a shipping agent still
keeps an eye on the trade press(online) , one snippet she mentioned is the
large shipping group CMA-CGM has established an air cargo division
operating by another party four A330-200 freighters formerly operated by
Quatar Airways.
A330Fs are pretty good, versatile regional freighters, but larger frames (such as 777Fs) are more economical and have a
longer range.
Post by Marland
Some of the commentary on the deal suggests they may not be the best choice
of aircraft for what they want to do being more suited for operators like
DHL who move numerous smaller packages
quickly than rather than heavier items, but heavy freight machines like
747 freighters are hard to obtain at the moment.
Yes, after all, the original 747 was based on a rejected design for a military cargo aircraft. Back then, it was assumed
that the 747 would have a short life as a passenger airliner, and its long-term future would be as a freighter. Little
did they know!

<https://www.lloydsloadinglist.com/freight-directory/news/Atlas-Air-orders-%E2%80%98last-four%E2%80%99-new-B747-8-freighters/78247.htm>
Post by Marland
Notably no one has suggested using A380’s converted or otherwise. Is Roland
ex directory perhaps?
As discussed at length here, it's well known to be highly unsuitable for the role. There had been a plan for an A380F,
but it never happened, and converted passenger frames would be white elephants.
Post by Marland
Another thing I did not realise was happening is that though passenger
aviation is well down worldwide air freight like sea freight has soared
(NPI) to the extent that some freight hubs have been overwhelmed like the
container ports.
Another reason why peoples purchases of cheap tat on ebay from China may be
taking longer to arrive than it did.
Has total airfreight soared, or just airfreight sent on cargo planes? If the latter, it may be simply because a lot
less freight is being carried in airliner belly holds. Normally, all those passenger 777s are carrying lots of freight
as well.
Roland Perry
2021-02-22 14:36:43 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Notably no one has suggested using A380’s converted or otherwise. Is Roland
ex directory perhaps?
As discussed at length here, it's well known to be highly unsuitable for the role. There had been a plan for an A380F,
but it never happened, and converted passenger frames would be white elephants.
Oh dear. Recliner "I don't comprehend timelines" is still digging when
it comes to the suitability for aircraft to be converted to
freight-on-seats for the immediate emergency in Q2/2020.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2021-02-22 14:55:32 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Notably no one has suggested using A380’s converted or otherwise. Is Roland
ex directory perhaps?
As discussed at length here, it's well known to be highly unsuitable for the role. There had been a plan for an A380F,
but it never happened, and converted passenger frames would be white elephants.
Oh dear. Recliner "I don't comprehend timelines" is still digging when
it comes to the suitability for aircraft to be converted to
freight-on-seats for the immediate emergency in Q2/2020.
Bingo: I claim my fiver for a 'digging' in a Roland post!

Oh, btw, the one semi-converted A380 P2F went for scrap as it found no custom.
Roland Perry
2021-02-22 15:12:40 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Notably no one has suggested using A380’s converted or otherwise. Is Roland
ex directory perhaps?
As discussed at length here, it's well known to be highly unsuitable
for the role. There had been a plan for an A380F,
but it never happened, and converted passenger frames would be white elephants.
Oh dear. Recliner "I don't comprehend timelines" is still digging when
it comes to the suitability for aircraft to be converted to
freight-on-seats for the immediate emergency in Q2/2020.
Bingo: I claim my fiver for a 'digging' in a Roland post!
That's your timeline blind spot again.
Post by Recliner
Oh, btw, the one semi-converted A380 P2F went for scrap as it found no custom.
Which is disjoint from putting PPE on seats for a month or two back in
early 2020.
--
Roland Perry
Marland
2021-02-22 14:55:40 UTC
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n it did.
Post by Recliner
Has total airfreight soared, or just airfreight sent on cargo planes? If
the latter, it may be simply because a lot
less freight is being carried in airliner belly holds. Normally, all
those passenger 777s are carrying lots of freight
as well.
I’ll have to have a closer look later, while some may be because of the
need to redirect from passenger flight holds I certainly saw comments that
some traffic was new to air totally .
Though expensive especially as rates for operators are quite remunerative
at the moment some shippers feel the cost had to be borne to get shipments
around the log jams that have affected goods sent by ship.

GH
Recliner
2021-02-22 15:24:35 UTC
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Post by Marland
n it did.
Post by Recliner
Has total airfreight soared, or just airfreight sent on cargo planes? If
the latter, it may be simply because a lot
less freight is being carried in airliner belly holds. Normally, all
those passenger 777s are carrying lots of freight
as well.
I’ll have to have a closer look later, while some may be because of the
need to redirect from passenger flight holds I certainly saw comments that
some traffic was new to air totally .
Though expensive especially as rates for operators are quite remunerative
at the moment some shippers feel the cost had to be borne to get shipments
around the log jams that have affected goods sent by ship.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the problems with sea cargo, including large numbers containers being stacked in
the wrong places? It means sea cargo costs have gone up, and delivery is less reliable, so air freight might be
relatively more competitive currently.
Marland
2021-02-22 17:04:28 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
n it did.
Post by Recliner
Has total airfreight soared, or just airfreight sent on cargo planes? If
the latter, it may be simply because a lot
less freight is being carried in airliner belly holds. Normally, all
those passenger 777s are carrying lots of freight
as well.
I’ll have to have a closer look later, while some may be because of the
need to redirect from passenger flight holds I certainly saw comments that
some traffic was new to air totally .
Though expensive especially as rates for operators are quite remunerative
at the moment some shippers feel the cost had to be borne to get shipments
around the log jams that have affected goods sent by ship.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the problems with sea cargo,
including large numbers containers being stacked in
the wrong places? It means sea cargo costs have gone up, and delivery is
less reliable, so air freight might be
relatively more competitive currently.
Yes , that is what I meant by log jams, but it does mean that air freight
rates have risen as well .
The shipping firm must feel this is market they want to be in though the
acquiring of the aircraft mentioned are not their first step in that
direction, they were originally going to acquire 30%
in another air consortium Groupe Dubreuil which had access to the holds of
two French airlines
which announced that last September . That deal hit problems and this
months announcement of the A200 purchase means that proposal has been
abandoned.

I wonder if historically there have been many shipping companies that have
moved into the air business both passenger and freight , you would some
would have seen it as a future market .
One example would be Canadian Pacific though really that was the Canadian
Railway Company who
had long had a shipping line* and was moving with the times. Cunard
invested in Airline and went onto a joint operation with BOAC for a while
with the Cunard name appearing on aircraft.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/BOAC-Cunard/Vickers-Super-VC10-Srs1151/750429/L

Perhaps there were more but the old shipping name was seen as too old
fashioned for the new age.


*
You can hardly see them now but this wall by the rail entrance to
Southampton Eastern Docks
has two versions of “ Canadian Pacific Spans the world “ painted on it.

https://goo.gl/maps/h3SXCGkvYqk3D9DL8


20+ years ago they were fairly legible.


GH
ColinR
2021-02-22 22:29:04 UTC
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Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
n it did.
Post by Recliner
Has total airfreight soared, or just airfreight sent on cargo planes? If
the latter, it may be simply because a lot
less freight is being carried in airliner belly holds. Normally, all
those passenger 777s are carrying lots of freight
as well.
I’ll have to have a closer look later, while some may be because of the
need to redirect from passenger flight holds I certainly saw comments that
some traffic was new to air totally .
Though expensive especially as rates for operators are quite remunerative
at the moment some shippers feel the cost had to be borne to get shipments
around the log jams that have affected goods sent by ship.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the problems with sea cargo,
including large numbers containers being stacked in
the wrong places? It means sea cargo costs have gone up, and delivery is
less reliable, so air freight might be
relatively more competitive currently.
Yes , that is what I meant by log jams, but it does mean that air freight
rates have risen as well .
The shipping firm must feel this is market they want to be in though the
acquiring of the aircraft mentioned are not their first step in that
direction, they were originally going to acquire 30%
in another air consortium Groupe Dubreuil which had access to the holds of
two French airlines
which announced that last September . That deal hit problems and this
months announcement of the A200 purchase means that proposal has been
abandoned.
I wonder if historically there have been many shipping companies that have
moved into the air business both passenger and freight , you would some
would have seen it as a future market .
One obvious example is Taiwan's Evergreen Marine which founded and controls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_Marine
controls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVA_Air
Post by Marland
One example would be Canadian Pacific though really that was the Canadian
Railway Company who
had long had a shipping line* and was moving with the times. Cunard
invested in Airline and went onto a joint operation with BOAC for a while
with the Cunard name appearing on aircraft.
https://www.airliners.net/photo/BOAC-Cunard/Vickers-Super-VC10-Srs1151/750429/L
I wonder if that dates from the period when Cunard and BOAC offered joint
trips (Cunard liner one way across the Atlantic, BOAC/BA return)? I don't
know if it still continues (in non-Covid times).
Post by Marland
Perhaps there were more but the old shipping name was seen as too old
fashioned for the new age.
*
You can hardly see them now but this wall by the rail entrance to
Southampton Eastern Docks
has two versions of “ Canadian Pacific Spans the world “ painted on it.
https://goo.gl/maps/h3SXCGkvYqk3D9DL8
20+ years ago they were fairly legible.
GH
There have been several, but probably the biggest air / sea company is
the Swire Group which owns Cathay Pacific (air) and China Navigation
(sea) amongst others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swire
--
Colin
Recliner
2021-02-23 15:58:53 UTC
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Post by ColinR
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
n it did.
Post by Recliner
Has total airfreight soared, or just airfreight sent on cargo planes? If
the latter, it may be simply because a lot
less freight is being carried in airliner belly holds. Normally, all
those passenger 777s are carrying lots of freight
as well.
I?ll have to have a closer look later, while some may be because of the
need to redirect from passenger flight holds I certainly saw comments that
some traffic was new to air totally .
Though expensive especially as rates for operators are quite remunerative
at the moment some shippers feel the cost had to be borne to get shipments
around the log jams that have affected goods sent by ship.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the problems with sea cargo,
including large numbers containers being stacked in
the wrong places? It means sea cargo costs have gone up, and delivery is
less reliable, so air freight might be
relatively more competitive currently.
Yes , that is what I meant by log jams, but it does mean that air freight
rates have risen as well .
The shipping firm must feel this is market they want to be in though the
acquiring of the aircraft mentioned are not their first step in that
direction, they were originally going to acquire 30%
in another air consortium Groupe Dubreuil which had access to the holds of
two French airlines
which announced that last September . That deal hit problems and this
months announcement of the A200 purchase means that proposal has been
abandoned.
I wonder if historically there have been many shipping companies that have
moved into the air business both passenger and freight , you would some
would have seen it as a future market .
One obvious example is Taiwan's Evergreen Marine which founded and controls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_Marine
controls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVA_Air
Post by Marland
One example would be Canadian Pacific though really that was the Canadian
Railway Company who
had long had a shipping line* and was moving with the times. Cunard
invested in Airline and went onto a joint operation with BOAC for a while
with the Cunard name appearing on aircraft.
https://www.airliners.net/photo/BOAC-Cunard/Vickers-Super-VC10-Srs1151/750429/L
I wonder if that dates from the period when Cunard and BOAC offered joint
trips (Cunard liner one way across the Atlantic, BOAC/BA return)? I don't
know if it still continues (in non-Covid times).
Post by Marland
Perhaps there were more but the old shipping name was seen as too old
fashioned for the new age.
*
You can hardly see them now but this wall by the rail entrance to
Southampton Eastern Docks
has two versions of “ Canadian Pacific Spans the world “ painted on it.
https://goo.gl/maps/h3SXCGkvYqk3D9DL8
20+ years ago they were fairly legible.
GH
There have been several, but probably the biggest air / sea company is
the Swire Group which owns Cathay Pacific (air) and China Navigation
(sea) amongst others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swire
I wasn't previously aware that the Swire Group also had a shipping line.
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