(too old to reply)
IEP order confirmed for East Coast
Paul Corfield
2013-07-18 06:47:30 UTC
Issued this morning by the DfT is this press release confirming an
order of 270 carriages of IEP Class 800 trains for East Coast
services.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-gives-green-light-for-more-state-of-the-art-intercity-trains
--
Paul C
Roland Perry
2013-07-18 07:29:30 UTC
Post by Paul Corfield
Issued this morning by the DfT is this press release confirming an
order of 270 carriages of IEP Class 800 trains for East Coast
services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-gives-green-light-for-more-state-of-the-art-intercity-trains
That would seem to be 30 sets (each of 9 carriages). East Coast
currently have 32 IC225 and 14 HST, so will these replace just the
IC225? (ie none of them bi-mode).
--
Roland Perry
Peter Masson
2013-07-18 07:46:47 UTC
Post by Paul Corfield
Issued this morning by the DfT is this press release confirming an
order of 270 carriages of IEP Class 800 trains for East Coast
services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-gives-green-light-for-more-state-of-the-art-intercity-trains
That would seem to be 30 sets (each of 9 carriages). East Coast currently
have 32 IC225 and 14 HST, so will these replace just the IC225? (ie none of
them bi-mode).
The bimodes to replace the HSTs were ordered in an earlier batch, along with
the IEPs for the Great Western.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/intercity-express-programme

Peter
Bevan Price
2013-07-18 08:17:13 UTC
Post by Paul Corfield
Issued this morning by the DfT is this press release confirming an
order of 270 carriages of IEP Class 800 trains for East Coast
services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-gives-green-light-for-more-state-of-the-art-intercity-trains
Typical Civil Service spin.
Class 91 are capable of 140 mph - it is the signalling that prevents
anything above 125 mph. Are they going to spend mega-millions to upgrade
ECML signalling ??

And I think 9 coaches will be inadequate for many ECML services. They
are just repeating the initial WCML error with "too short" Pendolinos.

It would be better starting with 11 coach IEP formations now, rather
than belatedly realise their mistake and find they need to enlarge them
in a few years.

Bevan
Peter Masson
2013-07-18 08:35:01 UTC
And I think 9 coaches will be inadequate for many ECML services. They are
just repeating the initial WCML error with "too short" Pendolinos.
It would be better starting with 11 coach IEP formations now, rather than
belatedly realise their mistake and find they need to enlarge them in a few
years.
AIUI the IEPs will be formed of 26 metre coaches, so 9-car gives a length of
234 m. The Mk4 sets (and the ECML HSTs) have 9 23-metre passenger coaches
totalling 207 metres, and, with locos, DVTs, power cars, a train length of
around 247 metres. There would be problems in fitting even a 10-car IEP (260
metres) into some of the platforms at Kings Cross.

Peter
Peter Masson
2013-07-18 08:35:28 UTC
Post by Paul Corfield
Issued this morning by the DfT is this press release confirming an
order of 270 carriages of IEP Class 800 trains for East Coast
services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-gives-green-light-for-more-state-of-the-art-intercity-trains
Typical Civil Service spin.
Class 91 are capable of 140 mph - it is the signalling that prevents
anything above 125 mph. Are they going to spend mega-millions to upgrade
ECML signalling ??

And I think 9 coaches will be inadequate for many ECML services. They
are just repeating the initial WCML error with "too short" Pendolinos.

It would be better starting with 11 coach IEP formations now, rather
than belatedly realise their mistake and find they need to enlarge them
in a few years.

Bevan
Roland Perry
2013-07-18 08:56:59 UTC
Post by Peter Masson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-gives-green-light-for-more-state-of-the-art-intercity-trains
That would seem to be 30 sets (each of 9 carriages). East Coast
currently have 32 IC225 and 14 HST, so will these replace just the
IC225? (ie none of them bi-mode).
The bimodes to replace the HSTs were ordered in an earlier batch, along
with the IEPs for the Great Western.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/intercity-express-programme
Thanks.

Where's the extra 28% capacity into KX in the morning coming from, if
each train has 18% more seats? Are they expecting more standing room, or
will there be 10% more trains.
--
Roland Perry
Optimist
2013-07-18 09:05:01 UTC
Post by Peter Masson
And I think 9 coaches will be inadequate for many ECML services. They are
just repeating the initial WCML error with "too short" Pendolinos.
It would be better starting with 11 coach IEP formations now, rather than
belatedly realise their mistake and find they need to enlarge them in a few
years.
AIUI the IEPs will be formed of 26 metre coaches, so 9-car gives a length of
234 m. The Mk4 sets (and the ECML HSTs) have 9 23-metre passenger coaches
totalling 207 metres, and, with locos, DVTs, power cars, a train length of
around 247 metres. There would be problems in fitting even a 10-car IEP (260
metres) into some of the platforms at Kings Cross.
Why should that be a problem, surely people can just walk through via the adjoining vehicle?
Roland Perry
2013-07-18 09:01:05 UTC
Post by Bevan Price
And I think 9 coaches will be inadequate for many ECML services. They
are just repeating the initial WCML error with "too short" Pendolinos.
It would be better starting with 11 coach IEP formations now, rather
than belatedly realise their mistake and find they need to enlarge them
in a few years.
How many of the KX platforms would accept an 11-car IEP (genuine
question) mindful also that some platforms have been shortened to make a
wider concourse.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2013-07-18 09:15:30 UTC
Post by Optimist
Post by Peter Masson
AIUI the IEPs will be formed of 26 metre coaches, so 9-car gives a length of
234 m. The Mk4 sets (and the ECML HSTs) have 9 23-metre passenger coaches
totalling 207 metres, and, with locos, DVTs, power cars, a train length of
around 247 metres. There would be problems in fitting even a 10-car IEP (260
metres) into some of the platforms at Kings Cross.
Why should that be a problem, surely people can just walk through via the adjoining vehicle?
The vehicle at the front of the train would then probably be blocking
the points in the throat of the station.

When GNER was running their "White Rose" service with domestic
Eurostars, there were only three platforms they could use because of
this (and now, as well as some platforms being shorter due to the
concourse works, platform zero probably means there's an extra set of
points to take into account at the country and of platform 1.

Also, experience with the White Rose service, where two carriages-worth
of passengers had to use just one carriage-end door, wasn't very user
friendly.

Finally, there seem to be indications that it's no longer regarded as OK
to have the entrance to the driver's cab off the end of a platform.
--
Roland Perry
gordonT
2013-07-18 09:18:21 UTC
Post by Optimist
Why should that be a problem, surely people can just walk through via the adjoining vehicle?
Is the problem not more to do with clearance constraints between the end of some platforms and the "throat" of the station i.e. the presence of an overly long train would effectively lock up access to/from adjacent platforms for other trains?

--
gordon
Bevan Price
2013-07-18 09:21:06 UTC
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Bevan Price
And I think 9 coaches will be inadequate for many ECML services. They
are just repeating the initial WCML error with "too short" Pendolinos.
It would be better starting with 11 coach IEP formations now, rather
than belatedly realise their mistake and find they need to enlarge
them in a few years.
How many of the KX platforms would accept an 11-car IEP (genuine
question) mindful also that some platforms have been shortened to make a
wider concourse.
Not sure. But perhaps the shortening of platforms was unwise. There must
have been other ways of improving the concourse - less space for
"commerce" for example ?

Bevan
Hobdenius
2013-07-18 10:20:06 UTC
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Paul Corfield
Issued this morning by the DfT is this press release confirming an
order of 270 carriages of IEP Class 800 trains for East Coast
services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-gives-green-light-for-more-state-of-the-art-intercity-trains
Typical Civil Service spin.
Class 91 are capable of 140 mph - it is the signalling that prevents
anything above 125 mph. Are they going to spend mega-millions to upgrade
ECML signalling ??
Bevan
Taken from the Press Release

The new trains will be capable of running at 140 miles per hour, which would lead to further journey time reductions, although operation at this speed will require signalling and infrastructure upgrades.

The answer would appear to be a qualified 'Yes'
Roland Perry
2013-07-18 10:38:32 UTC
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Roland Perry
How many of the KX platforms would accept an 11-car IEP (genuine
question) mindful also that some platforms have been shortened to make a
wider concourse.
Not sure. But perhaps the shortening of platforms was unwise. There
must have been other ways of improving the concourse - less space for
"commerce" for example ?
There's no commerce on that concourse, it's the area between the buffers
and the original station frontage (recently 'uncovered', at ground level
anyway).

I was interested to note the other day that there were no barriers at
all set for exit direct into the new [departure] concourse, you had to
exit into the somewhat-building-site area adjacent to the frontage, then
make your way along a rather congested walkway towards the new
concourse.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2013-07-18 10:41:01 UTC
Post by Hobdenius
Post by Bevan Price
Class 91 are capable of 140 mph - it is the signalling that prevents
anything above 125 mph. Are they going to spend mega-millions to upgrade
ECML signalling ??
Taken from the Press Release
The new trains will be capable of running at 140 miles per hour, which would lead to further journey time reductions, although operation at
this speed will require signalling and infrastructure upgrades.
The answer would appear to be a qualified 'Yes'
Hmm, "will... would... will..."

I think the final "will" is more of a "would, but we won't", at least
within the lifespan of these trains.
--
Roland Perry
David Haggas
2013-07-18 12:07:27 UTC
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Hobdenius
Post by Bevan Price
Class 91 are capable of 140 mph - it is the signalling that prevents
anything above 125 mph. Are they going to spend mega-millions to upgrade
ECML signalling ??
Taken from the Press Release
The new trains will be capable of running at 140 miles per hour, which would lead to further journey time
reductions, although operation at
this speed will require signalling and infrastructure upgrades.
The answer would appear to be a qualified 'Yes'
Hmm, "will... would... will..."
I think the final "will" is more of a "would, but we won't", at least within the lifespan of these trains.
--
Roland Perry
----------------

ERTMS KX-Doncaster operational 2018-20. Also a common fleet with (much) faster acceleration than IC225/125
would yield reduced journey times.
ian
2013-07-18 12:12:18 UTC
Bargain of the century according to BBC2 radio news they have ordered 270
TRAINS!
Roland Perry
2013-07-18 13:11:47 UTC
Post by David Haggas
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Hobdenius
Taken from the Press Release
The new trains will be capable of running at 140 miles per hour,
which would lead to further journey time reductions, although
operation at
this speed will require signalling and infrastructure upgrades.
The answer would appear to be a qualified 'Yes'
Hmm, "will... would... will..."
I think the final "will" is more of a "would, but we won't", at least within the lifespan of these trains.
-- Roland Perry
----------------
ERTMS KX-Doncaster operational 2018-20.
Is that delivering 140mph signalling? What about the other
infrastructure upgrades?
--
Roland Perry
Arthur Figgis
2013-07-18 17:39:47 UTC
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Haggas
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Hobdenius
Taken from the Press Release
The new trains will be capable of running at 140 miles per hour,
which would lead to further journey time reductions, although
operation at
this speed will require signalling and infrastructure upgrades.
The answer would appear to be a qualified 'Yes'
Hmm, "will... would... will..."
I think the final "will" is more of a "would, but we won't", at least
within the lifespan of these trains.
-- Roland Perry
----------------
ERTMS KX-Doncaster operational 2018-20.
Is that delivering 140mph signalling? What about the other
infrastructure upgrades?
Isn't cab signalling said to be the main sticking point - hence directly
observing flashing greens by eyeball isn't considered enough for 140
mph? ERTMS includes ETCS, which is cab signalling, so the problem might
solve itself.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
The Other Mike
2013-07-18 17:50:06 UTC
Post by David Haggas
would yield reduced journey times.
in the late 1980's the fastest KGX - DON was 1 hour 28 minutes, with an HST

Now with 1.2 billion investment and 30 years of 'progress' they are claiming 92
minutes, so 4 minutes slower.


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