Culture; Dvorak the Train Spotter

[Nigel Cliffe]

The Saturday evening Radio 3 concert interval talk was about Dvorak, and his
interest in train spotting.

Should be on the Radio 3 site for about a week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio3/aod.shtml?radio3/twentyminutes_sat

From the program blurb:
"I'd give all my symphonies if I could have invented the locomotive!" -
Czech composer Antonín Dvorák, one of the most famous railway enthusiasts of
all time.

David Beveridge, a leading Prague-based Dvorák scholar, looks at evidence of
Dvorák's obsession with trains and its influence on some of his most
well-known music.







- Nigel

[Eddie Bellass]

I haven't yet heard that programme, but I remember reading
how Dvorak was too busy one day to make his usual visit
to Prague station, so dispatched his manservant there to write
down the numbers of the engines in the platforms.

To Dvorak's dismay, the servant came back with half a dozen
identical numbers. It seems that the poor chap had dutifully
recorded the water capacities displayed on the tenders!

By a remarkable coincidence, I'm listening to Dvorak's 9th
symphony - 'From the New World' - as I read tonight's uk.railway!
Some claim that you can hear a steam loco rhythm in this work,
but it is documented that the sight of a trainload of wounded
soldiers, passing by his study window, actually inspired the
opening theme of his 7th symphony - another favourite of mine.
--
Regards,

DigitisED (Eddie Bellass)

Eddie & Margaret Bellass,
Merseyside, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

[Phil]

Post by Eddie Bellass
I haven't yet heard that programme, but I remember reading
how Dvorak was too busy one day to make his usual visit
to Prague station, so dispatched his manservant there to write
down the numbers of the engines in the platforms.

That's cheating!! Is there no honour amongst trainspotters?

[R.C. Payne]

Post by Phil

Post by Eddie Bellass
I haven't yet heard that programme, but I remember reading
how Dvorak was too busy one day to make his usual visit
to Prague station, so dispatched his manservant there to write
down the numbers of the engines in the platforms.

That's cheating!! Is there no honour amongst trainspotters?

Perhaps his manservant deliberately wrote the wrong numbers for that reason.

Robin

[PhilD]

Post by R.C. Payne

Post by Phil

Post by Eddie Bellass
I haven't yet heard that programme, but I remember reading
how Dvorak was too busy one day to make his usual visit
to Prague station, so dispatched his manservant there to write
down the numbers of the engines in the platforms.

That's cheating!! Is there no honour amongst trainspotters?

Perhaps his manservant deliberately wrote the wrong numbers for that reason.

I suppose it depends on whether you claim to have seen X, Y and Z, or
merely record that X, Y and Z passed by this way.

PhilD

--
<><

[t***@aol.com]

Post by PhilD

Post by R.C. Payne

Post by Phil

Post by Eddie Bellass
I haven't yet heard that programme, but I remember reading
how Dvorak was too busy one day to make his usual visit
to Prague station, so dispatched his manservant there to write
down the numbers of the engines in the platforms.

That's cheating!! Is there no honour amongst trainspotters?

Perhaps his manservant deliberately wrote the wrong numbers for that reason.

I suppose it depends on whether you claim to have seen X, Y and Z, or
merely record that X, Y and Z passed by this way.

Probably not a lot of precedents for the use of manservants as agents
of trainspotters?
--
gordon

[tony sayer]

Post by t***@aol.com

Post by PhilD

Post by R.C. Payne

Post by Phil

Post by Eddie Bellass
I haven't yet heard that programme, but I remember reading
how Dvorak was too busy one day to make his usual visit
to Prague station, so dispatched his manservant there to write
down the numbers of the engines in the platforms.

That's cheating!! Is there no honour amongst trainspotters?

Perhaps his manservant deliberately wrote the wrong numbers for that reason.

I suppose it depends on whether you claim to have seen X, Y and Z, or
merely record that X, Y and Z passed by this way.

Probably not a lot of precedents for the use of manservants as agents
of trainspotters?
--
gordon

Years ago there used to be a piece of backing music to the Testcard on
the TV ITV that was, in the morning before 24 hour telly.

Sounded like a train starting en route then slowing down again.. anyone
any ideas?.

Yep and the 9th is a fine bit of work that I would have gone to see at
the proms last week, but HM and her hubby nicked my box;!.....

[Eddie Bellass]

Tony Sayer wrote:

(1) > Years ago there used to be a piece of backing music to the

Testcard on the TV ITV that was, in the morning before 24 hour
telly. Sounded like a train starting en route then slowing down
again... anyone any ideas?.

---------------------------

Tony...

Possibly Arthur Honneger's 'Pacific 231' or, if in a much lighter
vein, 'Coronation Scot' by the English musical composer Vivian Ellis.
There's also 'The Little train of the Caipiera' from the suite
'Bachianas Brasileiras' by the Spanish composer Heitor Villa-Lobos.


(2) > Yep and the 9th is a fine bit of work that I would have gone to

see at the proms last week, but HM and her hubby nicked my
box;!.....

That was the performance I referred to in my post of last night. I was
'retro-listening' to it courtesy of the BBC web site, which now
archives hundreds of programmes for 7 days after their original
transmission date.
--
Regards,

DigitisED (Eddie Bellass)

Eddie & Margaret Bellass,
Merseyside, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

[Tim Illingworth]

Post by tony sayer
Years ago there used to be a piece of backing music to the Testcard on
the TV ITV that was, in the morning before 24 hour telly.
Sounded like a train starting en route then slowing down again.. anyone
any ideas?.

Pacific 231 by Arthur Honegger??

Tim

[Clive D. W. Feather]

Post by tony sayer
Years ago there used to be a piece of backing music to the Testcard on
the TV ITV that was, in the morning before 24 hour telly.
Sounded like a train starting en route then slowing down again.. anyone
any ideas?.

I don't know if it's the same piece, but Kabalevsky's Etude in A minor
(op.27 no.8) always makes me think of a train journey rather like the
one you describe.

[Neil Sunderland]

Post by tony sayer
Years ago there used to be a piece of backing music to the Testcard on
the TV ITV that was, in the morning before 24 hour telly.
Sounded like a train starting en route then slowing down again.. anyone
any ideas?.

Are you sure you're not thinking of the 'Art of Landscape' sequences
that were shown on Channel 4 in the mornings.

If so, then it's probably the Steam Train in Wales sequence, which was
set to Holberg Suite (Prelude) by Greig.


Neil Sunderland

[Neil Sunderland]

Post by Neil Sunderland
Are you sure you're not thinking of the 'Art of Landscape' sequences
that were shown on Channel 4 in the mornings.

And for those that *do* remember the Art of Landscape, the Emperor
Penguins in Antarctica video is online here:
<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9062344605766332643>


Neil Sunderland

[Chris Lonsbrough]

Post by tony sayer
Years ago there used to be a piece of backing music to the Testcard on
the TV ITV that was, in the morning before 24 hour telly.
Sounded like a train starting en route then slowing down again.. anyone
any ideas?.
Tony Sayer

Anyone mentioned the "Copenhagen Steam Railway Galop" by Hans Christian
Lumbye ?

Google for more info <G>

Typical quote:

"Copenhagen Steam Railway Galop - composed in 1847 to mark the opening of
the
Copenhagen-Roskilde railway line - faithfully recreates the sounds of a
train chugging
out of a station and grinding to a halt at the next stop."

Hth

Chris

[Stephen Allcroft]

Nice one Chris, yes I've heard the Lumbye one morning on radio 3.
Another one for the list -but with more of a modern traction slant is
Michael Nyman's «Musique à
Grand Vitesse» which was comissioned by SNCF. I heard this a few
years ago when "Morning on 3" decided to do a transport themed week,
the Villa-Lobos and The Lumbye were featured as was Coronation Scot,
the Nyman piece and of course Michael Flanders and Donald Swann's "The
Slow Train"[1], there may have been others.

[1] Was Chester-Le-Street originally on the closure list, or did
Micheal Flanders choose it because it closed a couplet?

Post by Chris Lonsbrough
Anyone mentioned the "Copenhagen Steam Railway Galop" by Hans Christian
Lumbye ?
Google for more info <G>
"Copenhagen Steam Railway Galop - composed in 1847 to mark the opening of
the
Copenhagen-Roskilde railway line - faithfully recreates the sounds of a
train chugging
out of a station and grinding to a halt at the next stop."
Hth
Chris

[Kesterj]

Stephen Allcroft wrote:
.....

Post by Stephen Allcroft
[1] Was Chester-Le-Street originally on the closure list, or did
Micheal Flanders choose it because it closed a couplet?

ITYWF it closed and was re-opened, hmmmm 1980s?

Expect they want to close it again now, as it's "in the way" of some
fast shiny trains.

Kester

[Peter Masson]

"Stephen Allcroft" <***@lycos.co.uk> wrote
and of course Michael Flanders and Donald Swann's "The
Slow Train"[1].

[1] Was Chester-Le-Street originally on the closure list, or did
Micheal Flanders choose it because it closed a couplet?

Ambergate, and St Erth to St Ives also remain open, but these, and
Chester-le-Street, were listed in the Beeching report as proposed for
closure. Googling turned up this:
In January 2003 Will Dallimore had an email message from Leon Berger who is
the archivist of the estate of Donald Swann. He remarked on our supposition
as to why Littleton and Badsey Station had had its 'and' missing in the
song. He said that Michael Flanders had taken the names of the stations from
an article in the Guardian, and it was here that it had referred to the
station as Littleton Badsey. We assumed that the 'and' had been omitted for
musical reasons, when all along Michael Flanders had never put it in the
song because he didn't know it existed.

Peter

[Grebbsy McLaren]

It was a dark and stormy night when Peter Masson
<***@privacy.net> wrote in article <***@bt.
com>...

Post by Stephen Allcroft
and of course Michael Flanders and Donald Swann's "The
Slow Train"[1].
[1] Was Chester-Le-Street originally on the closure list, or did
Micheal Flanders choose it because it closed a couplet?
Ambergate, and St Erth to St Ives also remain open, but these, and
Chester-le-Street, were listed in the Beeching report as proposed for
In January 2003 Will Dallimore had an email message from Leon Berger who is
the archivist of the estate of Donald Swann. He remarked on our supposition
as to why Littleton and Badsey Station had had its 'and' missing in the
song. He said that Michael Flanders had taken the names of the stations from
an article in the Guardian, and it was here that it had referred to the
station as Littleton Badsey. We assumed that the 'and' had been omitted for
musical reasons, when all along Michael Flanders had never put it in the
song because he didn't know it existed.

Could the same article have omitted a comma between 'Formby' and 'Four
Crosses'? Were there any other stations on the alphabetical hit-list
between those two?

Grebbsy

[Stephen Allcroft]

Post by Eddie Bellass
I haven't yet heard that programme, but I remember reading
how Dvorak was too busy one day to make his usual visit
to Prague station, so dispatched his manservant there to write
down the numbers of the engines in the platforms.

According to the programme, it wasn't a manservant but his pupil (and
at the time his daughters fiancé), Josef Suk. When he saw what had
been written down, he treatened to withdraw his consent for the
marriage!

[Eddie Bellass]

Post by Stephen Allcroft
According to the programme, it wasn't a manservant but his pupil
(and at the time his daughters fiancé), Josef Suk. When he saw
what had been written down, he threatened to withdraw his consent
for the marriage!

---------------------------------

Yes indeed, Stephen...

I've read that version too.

Josef Suk's own 'Serenade for Strings' is another of my favourites.
--
Regards,

DigitisED (Eddie Bellass)

Eddie & Margaret Bellass,
Merseyside, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

[Andy Kirkham]

Post by Eddie Bellass

Post by Stephen Allcroft
According to the programme, it wasn't a manservant but his pupil
(and at the time his daughters fiancé), Josef Suk. When he saw
what had been written down, he threatened to withdraw his consent
for the marriage!

---------------------------------
Yes indeed, Stephen...
I've read that version too.
Josef Suk's own 'Serenade for Strings' is another of my favourites.

You should try Suk's Symphony in E. It's very Dvorakian and utterly
gorgeous.

There was a programme on Radio 3 probably nearly 20 years ago that
examined the influence of railways on Bruckner's music. The opening
horns of the 4th symphony were said to be inspired by the sound of the
banker and train locomotive whistling to each other as they ascended
the Semmering incline on a misty morning; and Bruckner was said to have
been an admirer of Brunel's broad gauge, making a point of visiting
Paddington while on a concert tour in London.

Actually it was a hoax (originally intended for broadcast on April 1,
but re-scheduled!) but a very plausible one. Bruckner had rather a
trainspotter personality (he is said to have been rather childlike and
had a compulsion to count things), and his symphonies could perhaps
aptly be described as broad-gauge.

I only discovered it was a hoax when idly reading through the SLS
Journal one day in the library; a contributer had listened to the
programme and, smelling a rat, enquired to the BBC who admitted their
guilt.

The funny thing is that several years later I went to a performance of
the Fourth Symphony; the programme notes repeated the story about the
loco whistles as if it was an established fact.

Andy

[Eddie Bellass]

Andy...

I'm sure I have read somewhere that Bruckner befriended the
Austrian steam loco designer Dr. Golsdorf, and as a result, was
able to cadge footplate trips up the notorious Semmering incline
on the Trans Alpine route.

No wonder, then, that some of his symphonies have passages
that are all fury and thunder!
--
Regards,

DigitisED (Eddie Bellass)

Eddie & Margaret Bellass,
Merseyside, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

[Andy Kirkham]

Post by Eddie Bellass
Andy...
I'm sure I have read somewhere that Bruckner befriended the
Austrian steam loco designer Dr. Golsdorf, and as a result, was
able to cadge footplate trips up the notorious Semmering incline
on the Trans Alpine route.
No wonder, then, that some of his symphonies have passages
that are all fury and thunder!

I would love to think it was true, Eddie, but I rather think it all
stems from the above hoax broadcast. I don't think the BBC ever
publicly retracted it and it has become established as a kind of urban
legend.

Andy

[Tim Fenton]

Post by Andy Kirkham
There was a programme on Radio 3 probably nearly 20 years ago that
examined the influence of railways on Bruckner's music. The opening
horns of the 4th symphony were said to be inspired by the sound of the
banker and train locomotive whistling to each other as they ascended
the Semmering incline on a misty morning; and Bruckner was said to have
been an admirer of Brunel's broad gauge, making a point of visiting
Paddington while on a concert tour in London.
Actually it was a hoax (originally intended for broadcast on April 1,
but re-scheduled!) but a very plausible one. Bruckner had rather a
trainspotter personality (he is said to have been rather childlike and
had a compulsion to count things), and his symphonies could perhaps
aptly be described as broad-gauge.

Bruckner certainly had a trusting personality, which explains why he spent
so much time revising - usually by cutting - many of his symphonies, in an
effort to get them performed. He had been told that such action would bring
performance closer, but it didn't. Nowadays, with the ability to revisit
recorded versions of his work, it's easier to "get" it. See also under
Mahler.

Users of Stockport station can see a numbering system similar to that used
in the Bruckner canon: both start at number 0.