Discussion:
Welded track
(too old to reply)
Jumper
2017-04-10 20:43:29 UTC
Permalink
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.

Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
R. Mark Clayton
2017-04-11 09:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
The UK has been fitting 400m lengths of rolled steel rail for decades, welded either electrically or by the thermite process.

AIUI LUL does weld shorter lengths in situ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_(rail_transport)#Continuous_welded_rail
PhilD
2017-04-11 12:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The UK has been fitting 400m lengths of rolled steel rail for decades,
Which is, of course, about a quarter of a mile.
Stephen Furley
2017-04-11 09:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Rail used to be rolled in 60 foot lengths; I think it is somewhat longer these days. These rails are normally welded together in a depot by the flash butt process. I'm not sure what the maximum length is, it's increased over the years, but a quarter of a mile sounds rather too long, at least in this country, maybe they can handle longer lengths over there, or maybe this is the length after the long rails have been welded together on site. These long welded rails are taken to site by special trains; in these lengths rail is quite flexible, so the trains can pass around curves.

Once in place these long rails are then welded into continuous lengths. In America, and various other countries, vehicle mounted flash butt welding machines are sometimes used for this, but a different process is more often used, Thermit welding, where the rails are set up with a gap between them, a mould is assembled around the rail ends, and molten steel run into the gap by igniting a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide, with various additions, in a crucible positioned above the weld.

Flash butt welding produces very high quality welds quickly, while Thermit welding takes much longer, but the equipment is more portable; it will all fit on a P-Way trolley. There is another process, gas pressure welding, where the rail ends are heated by gas flames and then forced together by hydraulic pressure. I think this is mainly used in Japan.

Track is sometimes laid in pre-assembled panels, but after a few days, when the track has settled down, the short rails are taken out and replaced by long welded ones.

Street tram rails are normally welded on site from short lengths due to the difficulty in transporting long rails through the streets.
R. Mark Clayton
2017-04-11 13:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Furley
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Rail used to be rolled in 60 foot lengths; I think it is somewhat longer these days. These rails are normally welded together in a depot by the flash butt process. I'm not sure what the maximum length is, it's increased over the years, but a quarter of a mile sounds rather too long, at least in this country, maybe they can handle longer lengths over there, or maybe this is the length after the long rails have been welded together on site. These long welded rails are taken to site by special trains; in these lengths rail is quite flexible, so the trains can pass around curves.
Here is a picture http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=291932
Post by Stephen Furley
Once in place these long rails are then welded into continuous lengths. In America, and various other countries, vehicle mounted flash butt welding machines are sometimes used for this, but a different process is more often used, Thermit welding, where the rails are set up with a gap between them, a mould is assembled around the rail ends, and molten steel run into the gap by igniting a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide, with various additions, in a crucible positioned above the weld.
Flash butt welding produces very high quality welds quickly, while Thermit welding takes much longer, but the equipment is more portable; it will all fit on a P-Way trolley. There is another process, gas pressure welding, where the rail ends are heated by gas flames and then forced together by hydraulic pressure. I think this is mainly used in Japan.
Track is sometimes laid in pre-assembled panels, but after a few days, when the track has settled down, the short rails are taken out and replaced by long welded ones.
Street tram rails are normally welded on site from short lengths due to the difficulty in transporting long rails through the streets.
Graham Harrison
2017-04-11 14:01:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 06:16:18 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Stephen Furley
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Rail used to be rolled in 60 foot lengths; I think it is somewhat longer these days. These rails are normally welded together in a depot by the flash butt process. I'm not sure what the maximum length is, it's increased over the years, but a quarter of a mile sounds rather too long, at least in this country, maybe they can handle longer lengths over there, or maybe this is the length after the long rails have been welded together on site. These long welded rails are taken to site by special trains; in these lengths rail is quite flexible, so the trains can pass around curves.
Here is a picture http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=291932
Post by Stephen Furley
Once in place these long rails are then welded into continuous lengths. In America, and various other countries, vehicle mounted flash butt welding machines are sometimes used for this, but a different process is more often used, Thermit welding, where the rails are set up with a gap between them, a mould is assembled around the rail ends, and molten steel run into the gap by igniting a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide, with various additions, in a crucible positioned above the weld.
Flash butt welding produces very high quality welds quickly, while Thermit welding takes much longer, but the equipment is more portable; it will all fit on a P-Way trolley. There is another process, gas pressure welding, where the rail ends are heated by gas flames and then forced together by hydraulic pressure. I think this is mainly used in Japan.
Track is sometimes laid in pre-assembled panels, but after a few days, when the track has settled down, the short rails are taken out and replaced by long welded ones.
Street tram rails are normally welded on site from short lengths due to the difficulty in transporting long rails through the streets.
When I see a picture like that I always do something of a double take.
This is rail strong enough to withstand a train passing over it yet it
bends. Well, it has to bend when it is laid on a corner of course
but I still have to think it through!
Roland Perry
2017-04-11 15:36:13 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@4ax.com>, at 15:01:42 on
Tue, 11 Apr 2017, Graham Harrison
Post by Graham Harrison
When I see a picture like that I always do something of a double take.
This is rail strong enough to withstand a train passing over it yet it
bends. Well, it has to bend when it is laid on a corner of course
but I still have to think it through!
Take a normal plastic or wood foot-rule. Try bending it. You'll find one
direction 100x easier than the other.

Also, when in vertical compression the rail has a support at every
sleeper.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-04-11 16:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Tue, 11 Apr 2017, Graham Harrison
Post by Graham Harrison
When I see a picture like that I always do something of a double take.
This is rail strong enough to withstand a train passing over it yet it
bends. Well, it has to bend when it is laid on a corner of course
but I still have to think it through!
Take a normal plastic or wood foot-rule. Try bending it. You'll find one
direction 100x easier than the other.
Also, when in vertical compression the rail has a support at every
sleeper.
It's also prevented from transverse bending by the clips anchoring it to
the sleepers.
R. Mark Clayton
2017-04-11 16:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Harrison
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 06:16:18 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Stephen Furley
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Rail used to be rolled in 60 foot lengths; I think it is somewhat longer these days. These rails are normally welded together in a depot by the flash butt process. I'm not sure what the maximum length is, it's increased over the years, but a quarter of a mile sounds rather too long, at least in this country, maybe they can handle longer lengths over there, or maybe this is the length after the long rails have been welded together on site. These long welded rails are taken to site by special trains; in these lengths rail is quite flexible, so the trains can pass around curves.
Here is a picture http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=291932
Post by Stephen Furley
Once in place these long rails are then welded into continuous lengths. In America, and various other countries, vehicle mounted flash butt welding machines are sometimes used for this, but a different process is more often used, Thermit welding, where the rails are set up with a gap between them, a mould is assembled around the rail ends, and molten steel run into the gap by igniting a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide, with various additions, in a crucible positioned above the weld.
Flash butt welding produces very high quality welds quickly, while Thermit welding takes much longer, but the equipment is more portable; it will all fit on a P-Way trolley. There is another process, gas pressure welding, where the rail ends are heated by gas flames and then forced together by hydraulic pressure. I think this is mainly used in Japan.
Track is sometimes laid in pre-assembled panels, but after a few days, when the track has settled down, the short rails are taken out and replaced by long welded ones.
Street tram rails are normally welded on site from short lengths due to the difficulty in transporting long rails through the streets.
When I see a picture like that I always do something of a double take.
This is rail strong enough to withstand a train passing over it yet it
bends. Well, it has to bend when it is laid on a corner of course
but I still have to think it through!
Have a look at how they fit these rails: -

Loading Image...
and
Loading Image...
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-04-12 00:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Stephen Furley
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Rail used to be rolled in 60 foot lengths; I think it is somewhat longer these days. These rails are normally welded together in a depot by the flash butt process. I'm not sure what the maximum length is, it's increased over the years, but a quarter of a mile sounds rather too long, at least in this country, maybe they can handle longer lengths over there, or maybe this is the length after the long rails have been welded together on site. These long welded rails are taken to site by special trains; in these lengths rail is quite flexible, so the trains can pass around curves.
Here is a picture http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=291932
Post by Stephen Furley
Once in place these long rails are then welded into continuous lengths. In America, and various other countries, vehicle mounted flash butt welding machines are sometimes used for this, but a different process is more often used, Thermit welding, where the rails are set up with a gap between them, a mould is assembled around the rail ends, and molten steel run into the gap by igniting a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide, with various additions, in a crucible positioned above the weld.
Flash butt welding produces very high quality welds quickly, while Thermit welding takes much longer, but the equipment is more portable; it will all fit on a P-Way trolley. There is another process, gas pressure welding, where the rail ends are heated by gas flames and then forced together by hydraulic pressure. I think this is mainly used in Japan.
Track is sometimes laid in pre-assembled panels, but after a few days, when the track has settled down, the short rails are taken out and replaced by long welded ones.
Street tram rails are normally welded on site from short lengths due to the difficulty in transporting long rails through the streets.
I think that some Russian mills produce welded rails in lengths
exceeding 400 metres.
R. Mark Clayton
2017-04-12 09:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Stephen Furley
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Rail used to be rolled in 60 foot lengths; I think it is somewhat longer these days. These rails are normally welded together in a depot by the flash butt process. I'm not sure what the maximum length is, it's increased over the years, but a quarter of a mile sounds rather too long, at least in this country, maybe they can handle longer lengths over there, or maybe this is the length after the long rails have been welded together on site. These long welded rails are taken to site by special trains; in these lengths rail is quite flexible, so the trains can pass around curves.
Here is a picture http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=291932
Post by Stephen Furley
Once in place these long rails are then welded into continuous lengths. In America, and various other countries, vehicle mounted flash butt welding machines are sometimes used for this, but a different process is more often used, Thermit welding, where the rails are set up with a gap between them, a mould is assembled around the rail ends, and molten steel run into the gap by igniting a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide, with various additions, in a crucible positioned above the weld.
Flash butt welding produces very high quality welds quickly, while Thermit welding takes much longer, but the equipment is more portable; it will all fit on a P-Way trolley. There is another process, gas pressure welding, where the rail ends are heated by gas flames and then forced together by hydraulic pressure. I think this is mainly used in Japan.
Track is sometimes laid in pre-assembled panels, but after a few days, when the track has settled down, the short rails are taken out and replaced by long welded ones.
Street tram rails are normally welded on site from short lengths due to the difficulty in transporting long rails through the streets.
I think that some Russian mills produce welded rails in lengths
exceeding 400 metres.
And the US, however the limit in the UK is the maximum length of a train (400m IIRC) that will fit in signalling section blocks.
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-04-12 11:10:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:30:18 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
And the US, however the limit in the UK is the maximum length of a train (400m IIRC) that will fit in signalling section blocks.
A train can't span two signalling blocks?
--
jhk
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2017-04-12 11:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:30:18 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
And the US, however the limit in the UK is the maximum length of a train
(400m IIRC) that will fit in signalling section blocks.
A train can't span two signalling blocks?
It can, but it can cause much awkwardness whilst doing so - rear of train
obstructing a junction for example, following trains being an extra signal
section further behind, etc. Also freight trains too long for loops can
cause great pathing problems.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
R. Mark Clayton
2017-04-13 14:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:30:18 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
And the US, however the limit in the UK is the maximum length of a train (400m IIRC) that will fit in signalling section blocks.
A train can't span two signalling blocks?
Of course it can, but what it should not do is span three!
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
--
jhk
furnessvale
2017-04-17 21:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
And the US, however the limit in the UK is the maximum length of a train (400m IIRC) that will fit in signalling section blocks.
The maximum length of a freight train in the UK is currently 775m.

George
Matthew Geier
2017-04-13 01:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
I think that some Russian mills produce welded rails in lengths
exceeding 400 metres.
Making the long length isn't the problem (well it is, the factory has to be long enough!)- transporting it to where it's needed is the real problem.

So you have manufactured a 600m long rail. How to you get it from the mill to the work site ?
Basil Jet
2017-04-13 02:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Geier
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
I think that some Russian mills produce welded rails in lengths
exceeding 400 metres.
Making the long length isn't the problem (well it is, the factory has to be long enough!)- transporting it to where it's needed is the real problem.
So you have manufactured a 600m long rail. How to you get it from the mill to the work site ?
Loosen all the pandrol clips between the mill and the work site, and
budge all the rails along?
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-04-13 16:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Geier
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
I think that some Russian mills produce welded rails in lengths
exceeding 400 metres.
Making the long length isn't the problem (well it is, the factory has to be long enough!)- transporting it to where it's needed is the real problem.
So you have manufactured a 600m long rail. How to you get it from the mill to the work site ?
Put it on specially adapted railcars.
Matthew Geier
2017-04-17 21:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
So you have manufactured a 600m long rail. How to you get it from the mill to the work site?
Put it on specially adapted railcars.
This assumes that the route between the factory and the worksite can take a 600m long train and that there are no tight curves or complicated junctions to cross.
Rail might be flexible, but a stack of it on flat waggons sliding back and forth as the train negotiates complex junctions could be an issue.
I've certainly seen a train near my home with 400m long lengths of rail - with a special set of co-ordinated cranes on each waggon that could lift a rail over the side where it was left for the re-railing machine to use. Later the waggons come back and lifted the old rails onto the same train that delivered the new lengths earlier.
(Other times the old rail is cut into short lengths and loaded onto road trucks).
furnessvale
2017-04-18 08:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Geier
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
So you have manufactured a 600m long rail. How to you get it from the mill to the work site?
Put it on specially adapted railcars.
This assumes that the route between the factory and the worksite can take a 600m long train and that there are no tight curves or complicated junctions to cross.
Rail might be flexible, but a stack of it on flat waggons sliding back and forth as the train negotiates complex junctions could be an issue.
I've certainly seen a train near my home with 400m long lengths of rail - with a special set of co-ordinated cranes on each waggon that could lift a rail over the side where it was left for the re-railing machine to use. Later the waggons come back and lifted the old rails onto the same train that delivered the new lengths earlier.
(Other times the old rail is cut into short lengths and loaded onto road trucks).
The long welded rail train clamps the rails at the centre, allowing the ends
to move as required when traversing curves. I have not seen curves too tight
for those trains to traverse.

At the work site, LWRs are normally discharged by chaining the end of the rail
to the existing track and pulling the train from underneath it, allowing the
rail(s) to gently fall to the ground.

George

Jumper
2017-04-11 20:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Furley
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Rail used to be rolled in 60 foot lengths; I think it is somewhat longer these days. These rails are normally welded together in a depot by the flash butt process. I'm not sure what the maximum length is, it's increased over the years, but a quarter of a mile sounds rather too long, at least in this country, maybe they can handle longer lengths over there, or maybe this is the length after the long rails have been welded together on site. These long welded rails are taken to site by special trains; in these lengths rail is quite flexible, so the trains can pass around curves.
Once in place these long rails are then welded into continuous lengths. In America, and various other countries, vehicle mounted flash butt welding machines are sometimes used for this, but a different process is more often used, Thermit welding, where the rails are set up with a gap between them, a mould is assembled around the rail ends, and molten steel run into the gap by igniting a mixture of aluminium and iron oxide, with various additions, in a crucible positioned above the weld.
Flash butt welding produces very high quality welds quickly, while Thermit welding takes much longer, but the equipment is more portable; it will all fit on a P-Way trolley. There is another process, gas pressure welding, where the rail ends are heated by gas flames and then forced together by hydraulic pressure. I think this is mainly used in Japan.
Track is sometimes laid in pre-assembled panels, but after a few days, when the track has settled down, the short rails are taken out and replaced by long welded ones.
Street tram rails are normally welded on site from short lengths due to the difficulty in transporting long rails through the streets.
Thks for the info.
furnessvale
2017-04-17 21:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jumper
I was watching Michael Portillo's Great American Railroad Journeys and
that at a special steel works, they made rail that was a quarter of a
mile long and then it was put onto special trains.
Does National rail, still weld pieces of standard length rail in situ
instead of transporting very long lengths of rail?
For many years in the UK, rails were rolled at the steel works to a length
considerably more than the standard 60ft.

Unfortunately, the layout of those works meant that the rails had to be cut to
60ft lengths to pass through the system and be loaded out for despatch. These
rails were immediately sent to locations such as Castleton and were welded back
into long lengths, typically 720ft at Castleton.

Nowadays, the steelworks layout has been modified and lengths longer than 60ft
can pass through the system uncut, certainly to 180ft at least.

George
Loading...