question about getting off before ticket destination on midland mainline, etc.

[David Horne]

OK- I'm trying to figure out the cheapest way of getting from Manchester
to Luton Airport (getting there by around 10am) in early May, without
having to overnight in London.

It looks as though I can get an apex ticket (£30) on the first train out
of Manchester on the dates I want. Although this train stops at Luton,
if I punch in Luton as the destination, I get quoted £180. Lovely. My
question is, what would happen if I just alighted at Luton? I will buy a
ticket from there to Airport Parkway. (What I'm thinking is that I might
buy a single ticket from Luton to Luton Airport Parkway _now_ and have
it sent to me- thereby avoiding exiting the station to buy another
ticket- should that be necessary. I don't know the layout at Luton-
mostly just having passed through it in the past.)

Worse case scenario- the train would get me into London with plenty of
time to take Thameslink back up to Luton Airport- but I'd rather avoid
doing that if possible. Any advice on this appreciated.

David

[David Horne]

Post by David Horne
OK- I'm trying to figure out the cheapest way of getting from Manchester
to Luton Airport (getting there by around 10am) in early May, without
having to overnight in London.

[]

Sorry for the follow-up to my own post, but I also notice I can get a
£19 apex on the same trains from Manchester to Kettering and back. So,
what's stopping me carrying that ticket, and then a return from
Kettering to Luton Airport Parkway (£16.20) (changing at Luton)?

David

[Peter Beale]

Post by David Horne
Sorry for the follow-up to my own post, but I also notice I can get a
£19 apex on the same trains from Manchester to Kettering and back. So,
what's stopping me carrying that ticket, and then a return from
Kettering to Luton Airport Parkway (£16.20) (changing at Luton)?

None, I should have thought, whereas getting an Apex to London and not
going to London is against the rules. How does the price (and time taken)
compare with going to London and coming back to LA on Thameslink?

[Ian Johnston]

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:32:00 UTC, ***@cix.co.uk (Peter Beale)
wrote:

: None, I should have thought, whereas getting an Apex to London and not
: going to London is against the rules.

From the National Conditions of Carriage;

*****

15. Breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You have the right to break and resume a journey covered by your
ticket (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any
intermediate station, as long as your ticket is valid for the trains
you want to use. You may also end your journey before the destination
shown on your ticket at any such intermediate station. However, these
rights may not apply to certain tickets. If so, the relevant Train
Companies will state this in their notices and other publications.

*****

and a quick check at Midland Mainline (assuming this is the TOC in
question) gives

*****

Full Terms and Conditions for Apex

Seat reservations are compulsory and you must travel on your booked
trains. A 50% refund is available before the outward travel date.This
may be subject to an administration charge.

*****

So, since MML do not explicitly say that ending the journey before the
destination is forbidden, it would appear to be allowed by the NCoC

Ian
--

[David Horne]

Post by Ian Johnston
: None, I should have thought, whereas getting an Apex to London and not
: going to London is against the rules.

[]

Post by Ian Johnston
*****
So, since MML do not explicitly say that ending the journey before the
destination is forbidden, it would appear to be allowed by the NCoC

Thanks to both of you for the advice.

My instinct then, is to get the apex to Kettering, then the return from
there to Luton Airport Parkway. Even if I had to disembark at Kettering,
I would still get to LTN sooner by taking the next train(s) than if I
went all the way to London (and isn't it a little bit of hassle to get
to KX Thameslink?) and back. The price differential isn't huge- apex to
Kettering (£19), then return to LAP is about £35 total, apex to London
is £30, then whatever the return (open presumably, as I come back a
couple of days later.)

I don't see any harm in just asking the conductor when I leave
Manchester- showing him both tickets (MAN-KET, KET to LTN). I'm sure
this has come up before. Can I be ejected from a train at the first
departure point when I have two valid tickets for a journey longer than
that? (I would, of course, have to change at LUT to get to LTN)

David

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by David Horne
My instinct then, is to get the apex to Kettering, then the return from
there to Luton Airport Parkway. Even if I had to disembark at Kettering,

you don't

Post by David Horne
The price differential isn't huge- apex to
Kettering (£19), then return to LAP is about £35 total,

yup, saver return is 16.20 says Qjump

Post by David Horne
apex to London is £30, then whatever the return (open presumably, as
I come back a couple of days later.)

£20.80 says Qjump. there don't appear to be other walk-up fares (why
no network awaybreak? Oh, the trip is too short for that, I guess).

Post by David Horne
I don't see any harm in just asking the conductor when I leave
Manchester- showing him both tickets (MAN-KET, KET to LTN).

I don't see any point. What you're doing is perfectly legal if the
train has a timetabled stop at Ket. Don't tempt fate: just show the
ticket that's valid for the leg of the journey that you're currently
on. You might land up with an as-yet-unstarted ticket accidentally
stamped (it happened to me once) and then have to explain it to a
sceptical conductor later.

Post by David Horne
I'm sure this has come up before.

So are all the other readers (hint: Google groups).

Post by David Horne
Can I be ejected from a train at the first departure point when I
have two valid tickets for a journey longer than that?

Certainly not.

Post by David Horne
(I would, of course, have to change at LUT to get to LTN)

Your second ticket entitles you to do that, after all.

Aside: I don't suppose one can use split tickets if the split is at a
station where the train stops for set-down only, or for pick-up only,
since "logically" you are doing both. But there is absolutely no
question of being required to disembark, turn around three times, bow
down in the general direction of Derby, or anything like that. You
are entirely free to stay in your seat, as has been repeated often
enough here. If/when you're asked for your ticket after Ket, show the
other one. IMHO.

[David Horne]

Post by Alan J. Flavell
You
are entirely free to stay in your seat, as has been repeated often
enough here. If/when you're asked for your ticket after Ket, show the
other one. IMHO.

OK- thanks. I'm convinced then.

David

[David Horne]

Post by David Horne

Post by Alan J. Flavell
You
are entirely free to stay in your seat, as has been repeated often
enough here. If/when you're asked for your ticket after Ket, show the
other one. IMHO.

OK- thanks. I'm convinced then.

I also note that an open return from MAN to KET is £39, and an open
return from KET to LTN is £16.20.

I just think it is nuts that, by juggling the tickets, I can get a fare
under a third what I was quoted by the trainline for a through ticket
from MAN to LTN. Nuts, but not surprising.

David

[Alan J. Flavell]

and an open return from KET to LTN is £16.20.

Looking at Qjump, Kettering to Luton Airport Parkway £16.20 is
actually the Saver Return fare, but I can't see any signs of the
anticipated restrictions on peak time trains in this instance.

There isn't an ordinary return fare shown, but the standard single
is 13.50. You don't want two of those if you can avoid it?

I just think it is nuts that, by juggling the tickets, I can get a fare
under a third what I was quoted by the trainline for a through ticket

Qjump shows a saver return Manchester Stations to Luton-A.P, route NOT
LONDON for 44.80, but seems to have a hard time finding journeys.
Those which it does find, involve 3 changes, but when I try to find
out more about them (like, where those changes are), it reports an
error. Ouch.

Oh, it also shows a saver return route LONDON for 58.60; here too it
seems to make a right meal of finding any journeys available at this
fare. Frankly I suspect this is yet another case of faster but
unavailable trains masking some feasible but slower journeys on which
the saver fare -would- be applicable.

Nuts, but not surprising.

Yes, it sure looks that way. A pity that although I have fun with
these puzzles, and see others saving large sums, most of the journeys
I've been on myself recently didn't seem to rate to make savings by
such trickery, despite trying quite a number of what-if variations.

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Qjump shows a saver return Manchester Stations to Luton-A.P, route NOT
LONDON for 44.80, but seems to have a hard time finding journeys.

I've been worrying about that answer, ever since I posted it. Any
chance that Clive is listening, or one of the contributors "in the
trade" who seem to understand this adventure cave?

How on Earth is a normal mortal supposed to work this out, when even
the combined computer resources of Qjump and notionalrail (whatever
they're calling themselves this week) seem to fail? (Clive's CORE
query web page is reporting "failed to connect to server",
unfortunately).

What -are- the rules for a saver return ROUTE NOT LONDON? I had
assumed that the fare would be applicable to any 'permissible' route
which 1. did not pass through London Stations and 2. did not use
trains which were excluded for the use of saver fares (i.e designated
peak trains). Is it the case that a passenger can compose their own
routes, subject to those restrictions - despite Qjump's apparent
inability to find them? Routing points for Manchester stations are,
of course, Manchester Group; for Luton A.Parkway is Bedford. Mapped
routes between the two are LM, LM+CN+MM, LM+PS+MM and MM+PS
(presumably that really means PS+MM, i.e
Manchester-Stockport-Sheffield-Chesterfield- Derby etc, changing from
map PS to MM at some appropriate point).

Oddly enough, the saver return from Manchester Stations to Bedford
itself (the RP) "NOT LONDON" is quite a bit more than to Luton
A.Parkway. Is this in any way relevant to the problem?

The whole thing seems a terrible mess. The sole journey that Qjump
seemed to want to find in the outbound direction was to set off from
Mcr at 2am and arrive some 5 hours later. Although, in the return
direction it seemed to find quite a number of feasible journeys during
daytime.

It's evidently easier to book split tickets and stop worrying about
this, but I can't help treating it as some kind of puzzle
nevertheless. Mornington Crescent!

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Qjump shows a saver return Manchester Stations to Luton-A.P, route NOT
LONDON for 44.80, but seems to have a hard time finding journeys.

I can see that my followup last night made one of the classic
blunders: I failed to check the fares to the routeing points!

In fact, the routeing points for Luton Airport Pkwy are Bedford,
Watford Junc and West Hampstead. I had stupidly picked the obvious
one - Bedford - instead of following the instructions!! Sorry.

The quoted SVR NOT LONDON fare to L/A/P is 44.80, but the
corresponding fares to the routeing points are all higher. The
instructions in the routeing guide say that if this happens:

In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct
comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin
station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected
than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open)
fares should be used for comparison purposes.

OK, so I compare the standard ordinary fares instead, but *again*
the fare to the destination is less than to any of its routeing
points.

Does that mean, then, that there are no mapped routes available?
Leaving only the direct trains option (there aren't any) or the
shortest route? (So what -is- the shortest route? Clive's engine
still seems to be down).

OK, there's a SVR "route Chesterfield" as far as Bedford, for 41.40,
but then it would be an extra 13.80 return to L/A/P.

So the original suggestion of a ticket split at Kettering indeed
seems to be a winner: looking specifically at SVR fares, that would
make it 32.20 SVR to Kettering, plus 16.20 SVR, makes 48.40.

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Qjump shows a saver return Manchester Stations to Luton-A.P, route NOT
LONDON for 44.80, but seems to have a hard time finding journeys.

Well, this is turning into quite a little puzzle, if any fans of the
routeing guide are willing to bear with me. Sure, the original
posting on which this problem was based is long since expired, and
I've no practical interest in travelling the route myself, but somehow
the puzzle lodged in my mind for its own sake, and, now that Clive's
CORE is back online, I'm even more baffled than before.

Here's the puzzle. If we look for fares from Manchester (let's say
Piccadilly for the sake of definiteness) to Luton Airport, there's a
saver fare "NOT LONDON" at £44.80. The question is, what routes are
valid for this fare? - (and why?)

Direct trains - none

Shortest route - CORE says it's via Stoke on Trent and Derby and
Lufbra and Leicester... 166miles62ch.

Qjump finds no journeys by this route. HAFAS, given a bit of help by
setting a couple of via points, seems as though it might have found
some, but there seems to be inadequate detail to be sure that it
really complies with the shortest route according to CORE - I suppose
some local knowledge is called for.

As for the mapped routes, the routeing points for Luton Airport Pkwy
are Bedford, Watford Junc and West Hampstead.

The quoted SVR NOT LONDON fare to Luton Airport is 44.80, but the
corresponding fares to the routeing points are ALL higher. The
instructions in the routeing guide say that if this happens:

In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct
comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin
station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected
than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open)
fares should be used for comparison purposes.

OK, so I compare the standard single fares instead, as instructed.

To Luton Airport NOT LONDON: £89
To Bedford NOT LONDON: 92
Note - to Bedford ROUTE CHESTERFIELD: £35 (!)
To Watford Junction NOT LONDON: £91

To West Hampstead: the only fare is ANY PERMITTED (£92).

So, again, the fare to the destination (£89) is less than ANY of
the comparable fares to the three RPs.

Does that mean, then, that there are no mapped routes available?

Or are we supposed to take the ROUTE CHESTERFIELD fare into account
in some way? There are no instructions about that, are there?

Or, perhaps there's an Easement?
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing%20Guide/easements.htm
I don't see anything relevant there.

So much for the routeing guide theory. Now for the Qjump practice.

[In general here's what I'm doing. From the main query page I set up
a return-journey query, from Manchester Picc. to Luton Airport, and
UN-check the fastest trains option. VIA point either not set, or set
as noted below.

Then I proceed with the query, and in general it comes up with a
selection of journeys for which no fares are available. Then I
take the "more fares available on this day" and I find amongst them,
the SVR "not london" fare cited above. Then I ask what journeys are
available at that fare.]

If I give it no assistance with a Via point, then it comes up with
only *one* outward journey, leaving at 02:18 for Sheffield, with a 2hr
wait there before continuing with MML via Wellingborough.

For the return journey, however, it finds three journey opportunities.

- One involves changing at Bedford and Sheffield

- One connects at Luton into a train directly to Manchester (via
Leicester and Stockport, apparently)

- One is routed St.Albans (walk) Abbey, Watford Junction, Manchester.

If I try to help Qjump out by giving Sheffield as a via point, it
finds nothing additional.

However, if I try to help it out by giving Watford Junction as a via
point, it comes up with several journey opportunities, in -both-
directions, which follow that route via W.J and St.Albans, and vice
versa, which it hadn't offered before. Recap: it claims that these
are available for the cited £44.80 NOT LONDON fare.

So now I have a list of 6-7 journey opportunities each way, by three
different routes, which Qjump say are available for this £44.80 SVR
"not london" fare, but for which there appears to be no basis under
any of the headings in the routeing guide ?!?

And NONE of them follow the route which CORE reports as the shortest.
(Yes, I know that CORE makes no claim to be authoritative, fair do's.)

Funny farm time?

[Barry Salter]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:42:05 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Qjump shows a saver return Manchester Stations to Luton-A.P, route NOT
LONDON for 44.80, but seems to have a hard time finding journeys.

Well, this is turning into quite a little puzzle, if any fans of the
routeing guide are willing to bear with me. Sure, the original
posting on which this problem was based is long since expired, and
I've no practical interest in travelling the route myself, but somehow
the puzzle lodged in my mind for its own sake, and, now that Clive's
CORE is back online, I'm even more baffled than before.
Here's the puzzle. If we look for fares from Manchester (let's say
Piccadilly for the sake of definiteness) to Luton Airport, there's a
saver fare "NOT LONDON" at £44.80. The question is, what routes are
valid for this fare? - (and why?)

Right...Manchester Stations to Luton Airport Parkway is something of a
"special case", as there's NO Any Permitted fares.

SVR rte Not London: £ 44.80
SVR rte London: £ 58.60
SOS rte Not London: £ 89.00
SOS rte London: £103.50

Working through the PDFs of the Routeing Guide (as ATOC.org still seems
to be down):

Step 1: Manchester Piccadilly is a member of Manchester Group

Step 2: Luton Airport Parkway has routeing points of Bedford, Watford
Junction and West Hampstead Group

Step 3: There are no common routeing points

Step 4: Compare fares FROM the destination routeing points TO the origin

Bedford Stations to Manchester Stations:

SVR rte Chesterfield: £ 41.40
SVR rte Not London: £ 52.20
SVR rte London: £ 67.10
SOS rte Chesterfield: £ 35.00
SOS rte Not London: £ 92.00
SOS rte London: £111.00

Watford Junction to Manchester Stations:

SVR rte Not London: £ 50.80
SVR rte London: £ 56.50
SOS rte Not London: £ 91.00
SOS rte London: £101.00

West Hampstead Stations to Manchester Stations:

SVR rte Any Permitted: £52.10
SOS rte Any Permitted: £92.00

My interpretation of this would be that you could quite legitimately use
your "Not London" ticket to travel via Chesterfield and Bedford, but
that's it, and that would also be the most logical route, specifically
Manchester - Leicester - (Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

Though once "Rio" ends, it'd be Manchester - Sheffield - Leicester -
(Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

HTH,

Barry

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Barry Salter
Step 4: Compare fares FROM the destination routeing points TO the origin

Ah, that was one mistake I made - I compared the fares in the wrong
direction. But, in the event, it doesn't change the result.

[...]

Post by Barry Salter
My interpretation of this would be that you could quite legitimately use
your "Not London" ticket to travel via Chesterfield and Bedford, but
that's it,

Uh-uh, you're saying that because "route chesterfield" to (or rather
*from*) Bedford is the only saver fare that's lower, that determines
the only available route to Bedford. I think I can grasp that...

However, if I try to persuade Qjump to go via Chesterfield, although
it comes up with quite a number of journeys, it says there are no
valid fares for any of them. And if I then ask it for other fares,
and what journeys are available for this £44.80 NOT LONDON fare, it
consistently reports a server error. Oops.

Post by Barry Salter
and that would also be the most logical route, specifically
Manchester - Leicester - (Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

So you're in effect saying that the other routes which Qjump
came up with (as reported in my previous posting) for this fare were
erroneous, I take it?

Post by Barry Salter
Though once "Rio" ends, it'd be Manchester - Sheffield - Leicester -
(Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

Can we draw that conclusion based on what's gone before, or are you
saying that based on other knowledge, please?

And what's with that shortest route per Clive's CORE engine - is that
also a mistake?

cheers.

[Barry Salter]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:29:43 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Barry Salter
Step 4: Compare fares FROM the destination routeing points TO the origin

Ah, that was one mistake I made - I compared the fares in the wrong
direction. But, in the event, it doesn't change the result.

Not in this case anyway, though it *can* change it.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
[...]

Post by Barry Salter
My interpretation of this would be that you could quite legitimately use
your "Not London" ticket to travel via Chesterfield and Bedford, but
that's it,

Uh-uh, you're saying that because "route chesterfield" to (or rather
*from*) Bedford is the only saver fare that's lower, that determines
the only available route to Bedford. I think I can grasp that...

Yup...For fares comparisons, the Routeing Guide only compares ticket
types, not routes, so you have to take into account all the quoted
routes. In this case, the "Not London" fares are set by Virgin, and the
"Chesterfield" ones by MML.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
However, if I try to persuade Qjump to go via Chesterfield, although
it comes up with quite a number of journeys, it says there are no
valid fares for any of them. And if I then ask it for other fares,
and what journeys are available for this £44.80 NOT LONDON fare, it
consistently reports a server error. Oops.

Yup...As the "Rio" service doesn't actually stop at Chesterfield. It
runs non-stop from Leicester to Stockport via Toton Centre. If you just
specify "Manchester to Luton Airport Parkway" and leave the "Show
Fastest Trains" ticked, then it only quotes the services changing at
Luton.

As you point out, however, it then claims there are no fares. Checking
on TrainLine, on the other hand, not only quotes the same journeys, but
quotes the "Not London" fares as well, and shows them as valid.

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Barry Salter
and that would also be the most logical route, specifically
Manchester - Leicester - (Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

So you're in effect saying that the other routes which Qjump
came up with (as reported in my previous posting) for this fare were
erroneous, I take it?

I would say the Bedford and Sheffield changes and the Luton change (onto
the Rio service) were fine, but the St Alban's one is crazy, given St
Alban's City to St Alban's Abbey is a substantial distance, mostly
uphill, and the service between the Abbey and Watford is irregular at
best.

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Barry Salter
Though once "Rio" ends, it'd be Manchester - Sheffield - Leicester -
(Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

Can we draw that conclusion based on what's gone before, or are you
saying that based on other knowledge, please?

Based on personal experience, and the fact that it's the fastest and
most reasonable route most of the time.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
And what's with that shortest route per Clive's CORE engine - is that
also a mistake?

Nope...It's fine, but sub-optimal in terms of time, taking over 4 hours
and changing at Stoke, Derby and Luton, against 3 hours on the "Rio"
service, with just one change at Luton, and 3 hours 20 via Sheffield,
changing at Sheffield and Luton.

Key thing to remember about the Routeing Guide, of course, is that very
few people use it most of the time, unless someone's trying to do
something which isn't reasonable in the slightest.

HTH,

Barry

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Barry Salter

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Uh-uh, you're saying that because "route chesterfield" to (or rather
*from*) Bedford is the only saver fare that's lower, that determines
the only available route to Bedford. I think I can grasp that...

Yup...For fares comparisons, the Routeing Guide only compares ticket
types, not routes, so you have to take into account all the quoted
routes.

Got it. (Isn't this the answer to one of the questions which Clive
posed but never got an official answer?)

Post by Barry Salter

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Barry Salter
and that would also be the most logical route, specifically
Manchester - Leicester - (Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

So you're in effect saying that the other routes which Qjump
came up with (as reported in my previous posting) for this fare were
erroneous, I take it?

I would say the Bedford and Sheffield changes and the Luton change (onto
the Rio service) were fine,

I get it now, because the route between Bedford and Sheffield
satisfies the "route chesterfield" requirement.

Post by Barry Salter
but the St Alban's one is crazy, given St Alban's City to St Alban's
Abbey is a substantial distance, mostly uphill, and the service
between the Abbey and Watford is irregular at best.

Hmmm, let's not get distracted by practical issues - this was meant to
be a question about the RG ;-) - as I read your reply, this is not
even a permitted route: it's not a direct train, it's not the shortest
route, and it fails the fares test for being an available mapped
route.

But if it really was available, Qjump produces journeys from 3h33 to
4h19, at various times of day, saying allow 20mins for the walk.

(And I'll bet Virgin would be livid, considering what they usually
charge ...)

Luton Airport Parkway St Albans 13:07 13:18 Train
This is the Thameslink service from Bedford to Brighton. Runs Monday
to Friday.

St Albans St Albans Abbey Walk
Please allow about 20 minutes for this part of your journey

St Albans Abbey Watford Junction 13:52 14:08 Train
This is the Silverlink service from St Albans Abbey to Watford
Junction. Runs Monday to Friday.

Watford Junction Manchester Piccadilly 14:16 16:40 Train
Virgin Trains

Post by Barry Salter

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Barry Salter
Though once "Rio" ends, it'd be Manchester - Sheffield - Leicester -
(Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

Can we draw that conclusion based on what's gone before, or are you
saying that based on other knowledge, please?

Based on personal experience, and the fact that it's the fastest and
most reasonable route most of the time.

"Reasonable route"? Hey, that's not allowed any more! SCNR.

But with your clarification about "route chesterfield" fares, the
other pieces do seem to fall into place.

Post by Barry Salter
Key thing to remember about the Routeing Guide, of course, is that very
few people use it most of the time,

Sure. As I said, I was treating this as a puzzle, not as a practical
need. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply, I appreciate it.

Post by Barry Salter
unless someone's trying to do
something which isn't reasonable in the slightest.

Like Bridge of Orchy to Tyndrum via Glasgow QS for £2.10, hmmm.

all the best

[James]

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Barry Salter

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Barry Salter
Though once "Rio" ends, it'd be Manchester - Sheffield - Leicester -
(Bedford/Luton) - Luton Airport Parkway

Can we draw that conclusion based on what's gone before, or are you
saying that based on other knowledge, please?

Based on personal experience, and the fact that it's the fastest and
most reasonable route most of the time.

"Reasonable route"? Hey, that's not allowed any more! SCNR.

Find a MML guard who'd object though.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

[context is SVR "not london" from Manchester Piccy to Luton Airport..]

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Barry Salter

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Uh-uh, you're saying that because "route chesterfield" to (or rather
*from*) Bedford is the only saver fare that's lower, that determines
the only available route to Bedford. I think I can grasp that...

Yup...For fares comparisons, the Routeing Guide only compares ticket
types, not routes, so you have to take into account all the quoted
routes.

Got it.

Hangonamo. After sleeping on that point, I think I'd got it wrong,
although the rest was OK. (oops, pun not intended...)

Post by Alan J. Flavell
(Isn't this the answer to one of the questions which Clive
posed but never got an official answer?)

Clive, are you tuned in to this?

What's true is that it's solely the existence of this "route
chesterfield" fare which allows Bedford to be chosen as the RP, since,
as we already reviewed, it's the only SVR fare which is not greater
than the SVR fare to Luton Airport itself.

However, once Bedford has been selected as the RP for Luton Airport,
surely the rules to apply to selecting mapped routes are those
applicable to their "not London" SVR ticket, even though it was only
the existence of the "route Chesterfield" fare which led to Bedford
being selected as RP? Is there anything in the rules to prevent them
using the other mapped routes between Bedford and Manchester, if they
so choose? On reflection, I think not.

(Recap: this is an in-principle question about the routeing guide, not
a question of practical advice!)

The map routes are LM, LM+CN+MM, LM+PS+MM, and MM+PS.

So if, by way of example, the passenger wanted to break their *return*
journey, at - let's say for the sake of argument - Stafford, then they
would be entitled to select one of the mapped routes that went that
way, would they not? I.e probably the option LM+CN+MM (reversed),
(since the pure LM option from Bedford is evidently silly).

It's all rather confusing...

[Chris Pemberton]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:50:01 +0100, in article

Post by Alan J. Flavell
"Reasonable route"? Hey, that's not allowed any more! SCNR.

Reasonable route calls are creeping back in, certainly at the
application level. They've had to, as the paper version of the routeing
guide that I have bears no relation to the electronic version online.

For example, the paper version that I have does not consider the fact
that the L&Y route from Huddersfield to Halifax is back in operation,
that's via Bradley Wood Jn and Brighouse. It's shown on the online maps,
Brighouse is down as being under Halifax or Huddersfield, all good and
proper, and things seem to have been properly considered.
Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.

[Barry Salter]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:48:23 +0100, Chris Pemberton

Post by Chris Pemberton
On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:50:01 +0100, in article

Post by Alan J. Flavell
"Reasonable route"? Hey, that's not allowed any more! SCNR.

Reasonable route calls are creeping back in, certainly at the
application level. They've had to, as the paper version of the routeing
guide that I have bears no relation to the electronic version online.

This being because ATOC stopped providing printed updates to the RG once
RJIS came "on stream". Having said that, you can download PDFs of the
current RG from the Online Routeing Guide section of the ATOC site.

HTH,

Barry

[Ross]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:03:22 +0100, Barry Salter wrote in

Post by Barry Salter
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:48:23 +0100, Chris Pemberton

Post by Chris Pemberton
Reasonable route calls are creeping back in, certainly at the
application level. They've had to, as the paper version of the routeing
guide that I have bears no relation to the electronic version online.

This being because ATOC stopped providing printed updates to the RG once
RJIS came "on stream".

Because it either didn't occur to them that on-train staff don't have
RJIS access, or they don't consider it important.

It strikes me that the people who run the railway still don't really
understand that the days when 99% of stations were fully staffed and
tickets would be checked at barriers before boarding never really
existed, never mind have long since gone.

[Chris Pemberton]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:03:22 +0100, in article

Post by Barry Salter
This being because ATOC stopped providing printed updates to the RG once
RJIS came "on stream". Having said that, you can download PDFs of the
current RG from the Online Routeing Guide section of the ATOC site.

I can download the PDF's, yes, if I want to use my connection, my
printer and my ink, but that would be a personal choice.

Strictly speaking, even if I did all that, it couldn't be described as
official, as I hadn't received the prints from my manager, and I hadn't
signed for it.

Rippers, guards, barrier staff don't have the luxury of RJIS - yet they
are the ones who have to make the hard calls.

And people wonder why this railway is so messed up.

Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.

[Ian Johnston]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:03:20 UTC, Barry Salter
<***@blackhole.southie.me.uk> wrote:

: Key thing to remember about the Routeing Guide, of course, is that very
: few people use it most of the time, unless someone's trying to do
: something which isn't reasonable in the slightest.

Just to jump in with both feet here, I'd have thought that if one
turned up on a reasonable train from A (Manchester?) to B (Luton
Airport Parkway) with a ticket between those places marked "Not
London", and if one was manifestly not going via London, no Guard /
Train Manager / Ticket Inspector / Revenue Protection Officer in the
world is going to start worrying about the bizarre complexities of
routeing. I am sure they have better things to do ...

Ian

--

[Clive Page]

Post by Ian Johnston
Just to jump in with both feet here, I'd have thought that if one
turned up on a reasonable train from A (Manchester?) to B (Luton
Airport Parkway) with a ticket between those places marked "Not
London", and if one was manifestly not going via London, no Guard /
Train Manager / Ticket Inspector / Revenue Protection Officer in the
world is going to start worrying about the bizarre complexities of
routeing. I am sure they have better things to do ...

I'm sure that's right. Not long ago I travelled from Leicester to
Goostrey (Cheshire) and back on the Rio service changing at Stockport.
It's an eminently reasonable route and fastest, but I was unable to get
Qjump to quote me any fare. I went on the route, and had my ticket
inspected several times each way, including when changing trains at
Stockport, without anyone questioning it at all.

A bit of experimenting suggested that for Leicester to Manchester (and
Stockport) the on-line services were happy to suggest using the Rio
services, but not for Leicester to a lot of other stations in the
Manchester area, maybe _any_ other station in the area.

Afterwards I pointed out to MML that Qjump was misleading potential
customers by forcing them to travel on such journeys via Nuneaton and
Birmingham, no doubt making the loadings on their Rio services even
lower. MML replied that my failure to find a fare was because my route
had been invalid. Fortunately Leicester ticket office sold me a ticket
for the service even though I told them I intended to travel via
Stockport, so I think I was justified in using it.

I guess the fares and the routing engines were designed before the Rio
service existed, and it's not been worth the trouble of updating them
for a temporary service.

Of course Alan and Barry have been dealing with what happens in theory,
whereas I've just been reporting what can happen in practice; the two
have really nothing to do with each other, as so often on the railways.

[Jeremy Barker]

Post by Clive Page

Post by Ian Johnston
Just to jump in with both feet here, I'd have thought that if one
turned up on a reasonable train from A (Manchester?) to B (Luton
Airport Parkway) with a ticket between those places marked "Not
London", and if one was manifestly not going via London, no Guard /
Train Manager / Ticket Inspector / Revenue Protection Officer in the
world is going to start worrying about the bizarre complexities of
routeing. I am sure they have better things to do ...

I'm sure that's right. Not long ago I travelled from Leicester to
Goostrey (Cheshire) and back on the Rio service changing at Stockport.
It's an eminently reasonable route and fastest, but I was unable to get
Qjump to quote me any fare. I went on the route, and had my ticket
inspected several times each way, including when changing trains at
Stockport, without anyone questioning it at all.

That doesn't mean that you were using a permitted route - just that
whoever examined your ticket didn't realise that you were not doing
so.

Post by Clive Page
A bit of experimenting suggested that for Leicester to Manchester (and
Stockport) the on-line services were happy to suggest using the Rio
services, but not for Leicester to a lot of other stations in the
Manchester area, maybe _any_ other station in the area.
Afterwards I pointed out to MML that Qjump was misleading potential
customers by forcing them to travel on such journeys via Nuneaton and
Birmingham, no doubt making the loadings on their Rio services even
lower. MML replied that my failure to find a fare was because my route
had been invalid. Fortunately Leicester ticket office sold me a ticket
for the service even though I told them I intended to travel via
Stockport, so I think I was justified in using it.

MML were correct. According to the Routeing Guide the routeing points
for Goostrey are Crewe, Manchester group, Stockport and Stoke on
Trent. For a journey from Leicester, Manchester and Stockport are
invalid routeing points because of the fares rule (the fare to the
routing point most not be more than that for the overall journey)
which leaves travelling via Stoke on Trent or Crewe as the only valid
routes.

Post by Clive Page
I guess the fares and the routing engines were designed before the Rio
service existed, and it's not been worth the trouble of updating them
for a temporary service.

Apart from some messing about to make fares to London interavailable
on MML and VWC there's no reason why any fares should have been
fiddled around with. The MML service from Leicester to Manchester is
not sufficiently dissimilar to travelling via Sheffield to make it
sensible to fiddle with the fares there as well. The routeing rules
are OK - they permit travel from Leicester to Stockport via Sheffield.
The problem is you were not travelling to Stockport but to a place
much nearer Crewe.

Post by Clive Page
Of course Alan and Barry have been dealing with what happens in theory,
whereas I've just been reporting what can happen in practice; the two
have really nothing to do with each other, as so often on the railways.

You could have bought a ticket for the Leicester to Stockport part of
the journey and an additional ticket for the Stockport to Goostrey
journey. That's the legitimate way to travel via Stockport.

jb

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Jeremy Barker
You could have bought a ticket for the Leicester to Stockport part of
the journey and an additional ticket for the Stockport to Goostrey
journey. That's the legitimate way to travel via Stockport.

However, combining two return tickets in that kind of fashion does
condemn you not only to pass through but also use service(s) which
stop at the same changeover point, in both directions.

Speaking in general without reference to the specifics of this
particular Goostrey trip - Where there are several routes, an
end-to-end ticket could offer more flexibility of the return routing.

ttfn

[Clive Page]

Post by Jeremy Barker
That doesn't mean that you were using a permitted route - just that
whoever examined your ticket didn't realise that you were not doing
so.

I realise that. But it seems useful to people like the original poster
to know that in practice you can use such routes, as practically nobody
in the rail system now understands the Routing Rules.

Post by Jeremy Barker
MML were correct.

Yes, of course. I didn't no suggest otherwise. But the practical
effect is that their Rio services are faster and shorter for journeys
from the midlands to many places around Manchester, but because of the
stupid rules they are technically invalid for through tickets.

Post by Jeremy Barker
You could have bought a ticket for the Leicester to Stockport part of
the journey and an additional ticket for the Stockport to Goostrey
journey. That's the legitimate way to travel via Stockport.

Yes, but doing that would have taken at least half-an-hour at a ticket
office.
I told the ticket clerk at Leicester what route I wanted, and he sold me
a through ticket. That's good enough for me (and, apparently, for every
ticket inspector that I encountered).

[Neil Williams]

Post by Clive Page
A bit of experimenting suggested that for Leicester to Manchester (and
Stockport) the on-line services were happy to suggest using the Rio
services, but not for Leicester to a lot of other stations in the
Manchester area, maybe _any_ other station in the area.

[snip]

Post by Clive Page
I guess the fares and the routing engines were designed before the Rio
service existed, and it's not been worth the trouble of updating them
for a temporary service.

The problem is that (as mentioned in my other post) Dore South Curve is
not on the maps, and therefore no mapped permitted routes exist involving
the use of Rio.

Neil

[Jeremy Barker]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Clive Page
A bit of experimenting suggested that for Leicester to Manchester (and
Stockport) the on-line services were happy to suggest using the Rio
services, but not for Leicester to a lot of other stations in the
Manchester area, maybe _any_ other station in the area.

[snip]

Post by Clive Page
I guess the fares and the routing engines were designed before the Rio
service existed, and it's not been worth the trouble of updating them
for a temporary service.

The problem is that (as mentioned in my other post) Dore South Curve is
not on the maps, and therefore no mapped permitted routes exist involving
the use of Rio.

That is simply being obstinate. For route purposes the curve at Dore
is no different to going via Sheffield. The Routeing Guide maps have
other simplifications of that sort (for example, at Gloucester and
Westbury) and that does not cause problems.

jb

[Neil Williams]

Post by Jeremy Barker
That is simply being obstinate. For route purposes the curve at Dore
is no different to going via Sheffield. The Routeing Guide maps have
other simplifications of that sort (for example, at Gloucester and
Westbury) and that does not cause problems.

This is all very well when a member of staff is applying it (should they
be bothered to do so rather than just declaring a route reasonable). If,
like with RJIS, QJump and Trainline, it's a computer, it must be
explicitly coded - and my suspicion (based on trial and error) is that
this particular one has not been handled.

Neil

[Bongoboy]

Post by Ian Johnston
On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:03:20 UTC, Barry Salter
: Key thing to remember about the Routeing Guide, of course, is that very
: few people use it most of the time, unless someone's trying to do
: something which isn't reasonable in the slightest.
Just to jump in with both feet here, I'd have thought that if one
turned up on a reasonable train from A (Manchester?) to B (Luton
Airport Parkway) with a ticket between those places marked "Not
London", and if one was manifestly not going via London, no Guard /
Train Manager / Ticket Inspector / Revenue Protection Officer in the
world is going to start worrying about the bizarre complexities of
routeing. I am sure they have better things to do ...
Ian

As was expained in the pre-amble to the first editionrouting guide (is
it still there?) The routing guide exists more or less to back up
staff who find someone who has, for example, a stratford(london) to
croydon stations ticket trying to travel via ipswich, peterborough,
brum, bristol, salisbury, and brighton because they have a note from
their psychiatrist saying they have a phobia of the river Thames
Hertfordshire and the entirety of LT. A quite reasonable route in
those circumstances....

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Bongoboy
As was expained in the pre-amble to the first editionrouting guide (is
it still there?) The routing guide exists more or less to back up
staff who find someone who has, for example, a stratford(london) to
croydon stations ticket trying to travel via ipswich, peterborough,
brum, bristol, salisbury, and brighton because they have a note from
their psychiatrist saying they have a phobia of the river Thames
Hertfordshire and the entirety of LT.

However, there are two sides to a contract, and if, in the process,
they have created a set of rules which permit a passenger to do
something weird, then they'd better not try to renege on the deal when
some weird passenger jolly well goes and does it.

(Not that the journeys we've been discussing on -this- thread were
meant to be in any way unreasonable, I hasten to add. Bridge of
Orchy to Tyndrum via Glasgow Q.S for £2.10 would be quite something
else.)

cheers

[Barry Salter]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:41:35 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"

Post by Alan J. Flavell
(Not that the journeys we've been discussing on -this- thread were
meant to be in any way unreasonable, I hasten to add. Bridge of
Orchy to Tyndrum via Glasgow Q.S for £2.10 would be quite something
else.)

And also in breach of the routeing guide, as both share Glasgow Group as
a routeing point, making the only permitted route the shortest, which is
via Crianlarich (and there are no easements permitting travel via
Glasgow). The fact that there are only three connections a day which
enable you to do so is neither here nor there...

Cya,

Barry

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Barry Salter
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:41:35 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"

Post by Alan J. Flavell
(Not that the journeys we've been discussing on -this- thread were
meant to be in any way unreasonable, I hasten to add. Bridge of
Orchy to Tyndrum via Glasgow Q.S for £2.10 would be quite something
else.)

And also in breach of the routeing guide,

I disagree (as does Clive, as you can read in the other thread). I'm
going to have to go into barrack-room-lawyer mode for this,
unfortunately. It's nothing personal, and I appreciate your advice on
all of this. But see page F7 on
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing%20Guide/pdf_docs/sectionf.pdf

The routeing guide clearly states (as Clive had already picked up):

Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the
common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

(and then it goes on to show an example of this happening in
practice, and showing why a change made short of the routeing point
would -not- be allowed).

That text is part of the Routeing guide itself, which forms part of
the contract with the customer.

The instructions for the use of the guide contain text which purports
to negate this option, but those instructions are not part of the
contract, and the NCoC forbid the minimum terms of the customer
contract to be negated.

Post by Barry Salter
as both share Glasgow Group as a routeing point, making the only
permitted route the shortest,

See above, sorry.

Post by Barry Salter
which is via Crianlarich

Indeed that is the shortest route, unless you include walking between
Tyndrum stations. However, the R.G still says what it says, on page
F7:

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the
shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles.
Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the
common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

Certainly, going via Glasgow QS would be unreasonable! But
technically it appears to be allowed by the terms of the contract.

Sorry about all that. IANAL etc.

[Barry Salter]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:33:21 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Indeed that is the shortest route, unless you include walking between
Tyndrum stations. However, the R.G still says what it says, on page
If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the
shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles.
Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the
common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

However, Section A is just as clear under Step 3 - Common Routeing
Points:

If the origin and destination have a common routeing point the permitted
route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the
destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service
operates. No doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a
single journey) is allowed which may require customers to change trains
short of the routeing point, unless an easement is shown in the
easements section, which allows a longer alternative route.

Example (a) - Fort William to Wemyss Bay - common routeing point Glasgow
Group, but in adjacent zones with no doubling back involved.

And then ATOC wonder why the RG isn't used in practice...

Cya,

Barry

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004, Barry Salter wrote:

(quoting me quoting the R.G)

Post by Barry Salter

Post by Alan J. Flavell
If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the
shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles.
Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the
common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

However, Section A is just as clear under Step 3 - Common Routeing
If the origin and destination have a common routeing point the permitted
route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the
destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service
operates. No doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a
single journey) is allowed which may require customers to change trains
short of the routeing point, unless an easement is shown in the
easements section, which allows a longer alternative route.

Well, it's not 100% clear: as others have also commented, it has some
strange punctuation. More to the point, it's clearly incompatible
with what it says at F7, and if you look at the list of easements to
see if there's anything covering the Stratford (-on-Avon) example
that's shown, well, I find no such easement, nor does the example
itself say that it's relying on an easement: it presents the
alternative of going by "direct" trains to, and then from, the RP, as
of right.

It's pretty clear what they're _trying_ to say. Presumably there's
some reason why the shortest route is impractical, or has too few
journey opportunities, and it would not be unreasonable to use the
other route via Birmingham (but reasonableness is not in itself an
excuse!).

Whereas in the case of the Bridge of Orchy example, it would be
entirely reasonable to change at Crianlarich, and quite silly (as a
means of getting from A to B) to want to go via Glasgow. There are no
additional journey opportunities by going into Glasgow and out again
(they're the same trains, after all).

Back to the example on F7: the fact that changing at Tyseley is ruled
out by not being a shortest route is kind-of irrelevant, given that
they say that in one direction the trains don't stop there!! But
let's assume for the sake of argument that trains -did- stop there:
then the statement in section A says they would -have- to change
there, to avoid doubling-back; but the statement in section F says
they aren't -allowed- to change there, because of the distance rule,
they -have- to stay on until they get to the routeing point in order
to qualify for using this route option - which is exactly the point
that Clive was making, some way back on that thread.

The bottom line is that they word F7 to make that Bridge of Orchy trip
permissible, basta. If their two sections appear to contradict each
other, then surely the procedure, when one party to a contract has set
those terms, is to take whichever terms are most beneficial to the
other party? Usual IANAL disclaimers apply.

Post by Barry Salter
And then ATOC wonder why the RG isn't used in practice...

Do they? Do ATOC even have an official "wondering" policy? SCNR.

all the best

[Peter Masson]

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Back to the example on F7: the fact that changing at Tyseley is ruled
out by not being a shortest route is kind-of irrelevant, given that
they say that in one direction the trains don't stop there!! But
then the statement in section A says they would -have- to change
there, to avoid doubling-back; but the statement in section F says
they aren't -allowed- to change there, because of the distance rule,
they -have- to stay on until they get to the routeing point in order
to qualify for using this route option - which is exactly the point
that Clive was making, some way back on that thread.

But they also rule out using direct trains to change at another routeing
point, Banbury, and give no help as to what is and is not permitted via
Hatton. Presumably Hatton is allowed as the shortest route (the NRTT does
not give a mileage for the Claverdon to Lapworth spur, which is used in one
direction only by 1 train per day), or at least within 3 miles. Trouble is,
the connections at Hatton are no better than those at Tyseley, although they
do usually work at Warwick Parkway, or, even more likely, Warwick - but this
involves doubling back through Hatton.
Peter

[Clive D. W. Feather]

Post by Barry Salter
However, Section A is just as clear under Step 3 - Common Routeing

What it now says is:

If the origin and destination have a common routeing point, the
permitted route is direct via the shortest distance over which a regular
scheduled passenger train service runs. This may or may not pass through
the common routeing point. Doubling back is forbidden (but see
exceptions above).

If another route exists no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest
route, that is also a permitted route.

If the journey can be made on direct trains from the origin to the
common routeing point and from the common routeing point to the
destination, that is also a permitted route.

[Peter Masson]

Post by Clive D. W. Feather
If the origin and destination have a common routeing point, the
permitted route is direct via the shortest distance over which a regular
scheduled passenger train service runs. This may or may not pass through
the common routeing point. Doubling back is forbidden (but see
exceptions above).
If another route exists no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest
route, that is also a permitted route.
If the journey can be made on direct trains from the origin to the
common routeing point and from the common routeing point to the
destination, that is also a permitted route.

The example given of Stratford-upon-Avon to Solihull, apparently valid via
Birmingham on direct trains (despite doubling back to Tyseley), but
apparently not valid via the alternative routeing point of Banbury on direct
trains(because of doubling back to Hatton) remains unconvincing. And if, in
fact, Banbury is a permitted route, why on earth should changing at Warwick
Parkway, Warwick, or Leamington Spa not be permitted. It doesn't help that
there's only one train a day, in one direction, via the Lapworth to
Claverdon spur, connections at Hatton usually don't work because the train
to Solihull doesn't stop there, connections at Warwick Parkway don't work
because the train from Stratford doesn't stop there, and sometimes
connections at Warwick don't work because the train from Stratford passes
the train to Solihull somewhere between Hatton and Warwick.
Peter

[Neil Williams]

Post by Barry Salter
Yup...For fares comparisons, the Routeing Guide only compares ticket
types, not routes, so you have to take into account all the quoted
routes. In this case, the "Not London" fares are set by Virgin, and the
"Chesterfield" ones by MML.

It also causes trouble for another reason - because it turns right at Dore
and doesn't serve Sheffield, it is not valid for *any* mapped routes.
Why? Well, Dore South Curve doesn't feature on any of the maps!

I found this to be an issue when I was trying to work out why Woburn Sands
to Manchester via Bedford wasn't permitted (it was the fares rule,
incidentally - because the Any P (Not London?) fare is higher assuming
travel via Bletchley, while the sensible fare to compare with (route
Chesterfield) isn't a valid comparison. What a mess...).

Neil

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Neil Williams
I found this to be an issue when I was trying to work out why Woburn Sands
to Manchester via Bedford wasn't permitted (it was the fares rule,
incidentally - because the Any P (Not London?) fare is higher assuming
travel via Bletchley, while the sensible fare to compare with (route
Chesterfield) isn't a valid comparison.

Check again what Barry said! (oh, sneaky, it looks like he censors
himself from Google):

| Yup...For fares comparisons, the Routeing Guide only compares ticket
| types, not routes, so you have to take into account all the quoted
| routes.

As I read that, it's saying that if you're comparing (for example) SVR
fares, then at the stage where you're selecting a routeing point, you
take -all- the SVR fares into account, no matter what their route
restrictions.

Woburn to Mcr Stns svr (any permitted) is 41.40

Check Bedford to Mcr Stns for all available saver fares:

-> there is a saver *rte chesterfield* for 41.40

This is the same or lower, -therefore- Bedford is a permissible RP, as
I read it. (IANAL and YMMV).

(Pay attention to which fares have to be compared "back to front" -
that was one of my mistakes before, but it's not a problem here, I
think!)

If you find a fare of the same ticket type which accords with the
rules, then you're entitled to choose that RP. Then you go to the
maps.

And you can use the maps in accordance with the limitations shown on
-your- ticket, i.e in your case, "any permitted". I.e not subject to
the limitations of the specific fare which allowed you to use Bedford
as RP at the earlier step of the procedure. That's the way that I read
it, after due pondering, anyhow. Nobody's stood up to confirm or deny
it, yet.

Post by Neil Williams
What a mess...).

Well, yes, you -could- say that.

[Clive D. W. Feather]

[This is an old thread that I'd completely overlooked before.]

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Here's the puzzle. If we look for fares from Manchester (let's say
Piccadilly for the sake of definiteness) to Luton Airport, there's a
saver fare "NOT LONDON" at £44.80. The question is, what routes are
valid for this fare? - (and why?)
Direct trains - none
Shortest route - CORE says it's via Stoke on Trent and Derby and
Lufbra and Leicester... 166miles62ch.

Fine.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
As for the mapped routes, the routeing points for Luton Airport Pkwy
are Bedford, Watford Junc and West Hampstead.
The quoted SVR NOT LONDON fare to Luton Airport is 44.80, but the
corresponding fares to the routeing points are ALL higher. The
In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct
comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin
station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected
than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open)
fares should be used for comparison purposes.

Let's look at the wording in the latest RG:

All fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type. If
the Standard Single is the requested fare then compare Standard
Singles. If the Saver is the requested fare, then compare Savers,
and so on.

Sometimes (because of different local fares policies) a direct
comparison may not be possible. In that case Standard Single fares
should be compared. If a fare of the type requested has a lower fare
than all its routeing points, compare Standard Single fares.

Fares comparisons are made using National Fares Manual No 64.

Fares comparisons should match fares with similar fares routeings.
If that is impossible because the two sets of fares routeings are
not the same, compare fares for the cheapest fares routes.

Let's attempt to organise that.

Fare types (First Open Single, Standard Saver Return, etc.):

* Always compare fares with identical ticket types.
* Use the requested ticket type if it exists both for the indicated
station and the routeing point. If not, use Standard Open/Day Singles.
[Implied: make this decision independently for each routeing point.]
* If the above process didn't use Standard Singles and doesn't give you
any usable routeing points, then repeat it using Standard Singles.
* [Implied: if that still doesn't give you any routeing points, then
THERE ARE NO MAPPED ROUTES.]

Fares routes:

* When doing a comparison, if the routeing point has a ticket with the
desired fares route, use the desired fares route for both fares.
* If not, use the cheapest fare of the desired type at each station,
irrespective of its route.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
OK, so I compare the standard single fares instead, as instructed.

Before you get to that, you should compare saver fares. For those RPs
with a NOT LONDON fare, compare it with the £44.80 fare. For those
without one, compare the *cheapest* Luton Airport saver with the
cheapest RP saver.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
To Luton Airport NOT LONDON: £89
To Bedford NOT LONDON: 92
Note - to Bedford ROUTE CHESTERFIELD: £35 (!)
To Watford Junction NOT LONDON: £91

Those are the correct comparisons, since all are NOT LONDON.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
To West Hampstead: the only fare is ANY PERMITTED (£92).

You compare that with the *cheapest* Luton Airport standard single fare,
no matter what route code it has.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
So, again, the fare to the destination (£89) is less than ANY of
the comparable fares to the three RPs.
Does that mean, then, that there are no mapped routes available?

Yes.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Or are we supposed to take the ROUTE CHESTERFIELD fare into account
in some way? There are no instructions about that, are there?

See above.

Post by Alan J. Flavell
However, if I try to help it out by giving Watford Junction as a via
point, it comes up with several journey opportunities, in -both-
directions, which follow that route via W.J and St.Albans, and vice
versa, which it hadn't offered before. Recap: it claims that these
are available for the cited £44.80 NOT LONDON fare.

What's the WJ NOT LONDON fare?

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Funny farm time?

Probably.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Clive D. W. Feather wrote (quoting me from a

Post by Clive D. W. Feather

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Here's the puzzle. If we look for fares from Manchester (let's say
Piccadilly for the sake of definiteness) to Luton Airport, there's a
saver fare "NOT LONDON" at £44.80. The question is, what routes are
valid for this fare? - (and why?)

(the answer seems to be "none whatever", according to this
discussion?)

[...]

Post by Clive D. W. Feather

Post by Alan J. Flavell

Post by Alan J. Flavell
OK, so I compare the standard single fares instead, as instructed.

Before you get to that, you should compare saver fares.

Sure. I already -had- done that, and there were no solutions. Which
is why I was following the further instructions in the RG.

Post by Clive D. W. Feather

Post by Alan J. Flavell
However, if I try to help it out by giving Watford Junction as a via
point, it comes up with several journey opportunities, in -both-
directions, which follow that route via W.J and St.Albans, and vice
versa, which it hadn't offered before. Recap: it claims that these
are available for the cited £44.80 NOT LONDON fare.

What's the WJ NOT LONDON fare?

Right now it seems to be £50.80, compared with the £44.80 fare offered
from Luton Airport Pkwy (unchanged since the earlier thread).

I think if it had been any less than the end to end fare, I would have
spotted it at the time, and mentioned it in the discussion!

Post by Clive D. W. Feather

Post by Alan J. Flavell
Funny farm time?

Probably.

Btw, I've come to the conclusion that the answers given by Qjump are
unstable. If I ask for the available journeys on ticket type X, and
then ask for the available journeys on ticket type Y, and then go back
and ask about X again, I get a different set of answers from the first
time. So I don't really think it can be trusted.

The nationalrail planner, on the other hand, doesn't seem to offer
that sort of query. Ho hum ^2

[Clive Page]

Post by David Horne
I just think it is nuts that, by juggling the tickets, I can get a fare
under a third what I was quoted by the trainline for a through ticket
from MAN to LTN. Nuts, but not surprising.

The fares from Luton (and I think other stations between outer London
and Bedford) and Manchester seem very high, I think because they are all
priced on the assumption that you will take a peak-hour train into
London on one leg or another. The fact that there is, temporarily, a
direct service from Luton to Manchester has escaped notice of those who
set the fares (or more likely, they simply don't care). Apparently a
sizeable number of people, noticing the fare discrepancy, have been
trying to start their journey from Luton to Manchester having purchased
the cheaper London - Manchester ticket. I saw somewhere that initially
MML ticket inspectors tended to ignore this, but a directive came from
the top management saying that they had to charge excess fares in such
situations.

Since all the trains stop in Kettering (and indeed in Market Harborough)
the remedy is, as you noticed, to buy two separate tickets.

By the way, two of the MML London - Manchester services each way have
just been taken out of the time-table, ostensibly because the west-coast
mainline service is now so good: check the 'News' section of MML's
website for details (and with luck the on-line timetable nationalrail
will know about this).

[David Horne]

Post by Clive Page
By the way, two of the MML London - Manchester services each way have
just been taken out of the time-table, ostensibly because the west-coast
mainline service is now so good: check the 'News' section of MML's
website for details (and with luck the on-line timetable nationalrail
will know about this).

Thanks for the heads up on this. The 0536 service ex MAN is running (the
one I want to book), but the next one at 0648 is not- though the
trainline thinks it is, as does nationalrail.co.uk!

David

[Ian Johnston]

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:17:48 UTC, ***@yahoo.co.uk
(David Horne) wrote:

: I don't see any harm in just asking the conductor

That's just asking for trouble. Simply hand over your tickets when
asked with an air of calm assurance and you won't be challenged.

Ian
--

[David Horne]

Post by Ian Johnston
: I don't see any harm in just asking the conductor
That's just asking for trouble. Simply hand over your tickets when
asked with an air of calm assurance and you won't be challenged.

I agree with you, now that I've read other posts.

David

[Peter Beale]

Post by Ian Johnston
So, since MML do not explicitly say that ending the journey before the
destination is forbidden, it would appear to be allowed by the NCoC

Fair enough - hadn't realized that.

[unknown]

http://transfermoney.20m.com

[Keith J Chesworth]

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:18:47 +0100,

Post by David Horne
OK- I'm trying to figure out the cheapest way of getting from Manchester
to Luton Airport (getting there by around 10am) in early May, without
having to overnight in London.
It looks as though I can get an apex ticket (£30) on the first train out
of Manchester on the dates I want. Although this train stops at Luton,
if I punch in Luton as the destination, I get quoted £180. Lovely. My
question is, what would happen if I just alighted at Luton? I will buy a
ticket from there to Airport Parkway. (What I'm thinking is that I might
buy a single ticket from Luton to Luton Airport Parkway _now_ and have
it sent to me- thereby avoiding exiting the station to buy another
ticket- should that be necessary. I don't know the layout at Luton-
mostly just having passed through it in the past.)
Worse case scenario- the train would get me into London with plenty of
time to take Thameslink back up to Luton Airport- but I'd rather avoid
doing that if possible. Any advice on this appreciated.
David

From memory, there should be little problem in getting from Luton to
the airport..

Second you do not have to sojourn in London, there are two good hotels
in walking distance from the airport terminal and several others in
Luton.

Keith J Chesworth
www.unseenlondon.co.uk
www.blackpooltram.co.uk
www.happysnapper.com
www.boilerbill.com - main site
www.amerseyferry.co.uk