Discussion:
Ticket machines at mainline stations (south east area)
(too old to reply)
Tim Watts
2015-06-26 12:55:30 UTC
Permalink
I asked today at the ticket office if they would ever upgrade the ticket
machine to allow alternative start stations.

"Then people would not buy the correct fare" was the reply.

Seemed like a typical railway "can't do-won't do" attitude. I know she
had no power to decide one way or the other, but assuming that view is
not isolated:

1) The machine could at least allow more expensive start stations (to
return back further than one started from - something I do once or twice
a week).

2) Fiddlers can always buy online if they plan ahead.
Mizter T
2015-06-26 13:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
I asked today at the ticket office if they would ever upgrade the ticket
machine to allow alternative start stations.
"Then people would not buy the correct fare" was the reply.
Seemed like a typical railway "can't do-won't do" attitude. I know she
had no power to decide one way or the other, but assuming that view is
1) The machine could at least allow more expensive start stations (to
return back further than one started from - something I do once or twice
a week).
2) Fiddlers can always buy online if they plan ahead.
Some TVMs in the 'south east area' already offer this facility -
Southeastern's sister company Southern was I think the first.

Perhaps the view at Southeastern is that on their routes fraud would be
more likely if it was offered.

Of course you can always buy online and collect at the station TVM,
assuming the station has a TVM and it's connected to the TOD service
(not all are) - perhaps there are fewer fraud concerns with this, as
it's perhaps something that could be more easily monitored and the
ticket purchaser traced.

The RedSpottedHanky smartphone app doesn't levy a booking fee and
tickets are available for collection pretty much immediately - you don't
need to login or even create an account to use it either.

Like most (if not all) the rail ticket booking apps, including
TheTrainline's app, the RSH app is actually made by a company called
Masabi - I don't know if there are different back office processing
routines for say the RSH app and TheTrainline app, as with the full
Trainline web interface (and TOC branded variants thereof) it can be up
to two hours before tickets are available for collection, unlike WebTIS
based sites (of which the full RSH website is one).

Perhaps Masabi actually does all the back office stuff for tickets
purchased via their smartphone apps, and RSH, TheTrainline and the
various TOC ticket apps are just branded variants, I dunno. What I do
know is that it's easier buying via an app than trying to book using a
mobile optimised website for train ticket booking, such as that of
Southern - I was using the latter to take advantage of their Money Back
Guarantee (nee Rainy Day Guarantee).
Neil Williams
2015-06-26 14:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mizter T
The RedSpottedHanky smartphone app doesn't levy a booking fee and
tickets are available for collection pretty much immediately - you
don't need to login or even create an account to use it either.
Interesting, as their website does, or did.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Mizter T
2015-06-26 14:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Mizter T
The RedSpottedHanky smartphone app doesn't levy a booking fee and
tickets are available for collection pretty much immediately - you
don't need to login or even create an account to use it either.
Interesting, as their website does, or did.
Yep, they still do - £1.00 booking fee via the RSH website.

Worth noting the app (and I think all the other apps) can't do more
advanced/complicated things - there's no 'via' option for example, so
forcing a route with cheaper fares isn't possible.
Tim Watts
2015-06-26 14:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mizter T
Post by Tim Watts
I asked today at the ticket office if they would ever upgrade the ticket
machine to allow alternative start stations.
"Then people would not buy the correct fare" was the reply.
Seemed like a typical railway "can't do-won't do" attitude. I know she
had no power to decide one way or the other, but assuming that view is
1) The machine could at least allow more expensive start stations (to
return back further than one started from - something I do once or twice
a week).
2) Fiddlers can always buy online if they plan ahead.
Some TVMs in the 'south east area' already offer this facility -
Southeastern's sister company Southern was I think the first.
Perhaps the view at Southeastern is that on their routes fraud would be
more likely if it was offered.
Of course you can always buy online and collect at the station TVM,
assuming the station has a TVM and it's connected to the TOD service
(not all are) - perhaps there are fewer fraud concerns with this, as
it's perhaps something that could be more easily monitored and the
ticket purchaser traced.
The problem there is that my departure time is variable - and on the
cusp of when the price goes from peak-saver-supersaver.
Post by Mizter T
The RedSpottedHanky smartphone app doesn't levy a booking fee and
tickets are available for collection pretty much immediately - you don't
need to login or even create an account to use it either.
But that could be otherwise useful for some of my other journeys - ta -
will look at this...

I am longing for the day when one can buy an e-ticket online and just
wave the smartphone/card over the barriers/at the gateman.
Post by Mizter T
Like most (if not all) the rail ticket booking apps, including
TheTrainline's app, the RSH app is actually made by a company called
Masabi - I don't know if there are different back office processing
routines for say the RSH app and TheTrainline app, as with the full
Trainline web interface (and TOC branded variants thereof) it can be up
to two hours before tickets are available for collection, unlike WebTIS
based sites (of which the full RSH website is one).
Perhaps Masabi actually does all the back office stuff for tickets
purchased via their smartphone apps, and RSH, TheTrainline and the
various TOC ticket apps are just branded variants, I dunno. What I do
know is that it's easier buying via an app than trying to book using a
mobile optimised website for train ticket booking, such as that of
Southern - I was using the latter to take advantage of their Money Back
Guarantee (nee Rainy Day Guarantee).
Roland Perry
2015-06-26 14:52:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
I am longing for the day when one can buy an e-ticket online and just
wave the smartphone/card over the barriers/at the gateman.
That's how the ITSO smart-ticketing scheme works. But it's not available
over very much of the network at the moment. We keep getting vague
promises that it'll be all over the NSE area in $foo years time, where
$foo is perhaps a year after the last pre-ITSO franchise has been
renewed.

TSGN, one of the new franchises, is supposed to be doing it by September
this year, but I don't see much evidence of it happening. Especially as
I think the latest news was that it's only as far as Cambridge, but
their franchise goes all the way to Kings Lynn.
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
2015-06-26 14:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
I asked today at the ticket office if they would ever upgrade the
ticket machine to allow alternative start stations.
"Then people would not buy the correct fare" was the reply.
Seemed like a typical railway "can't do-won't do" attitude. I know she
had no power to decide one way or the other, but assuming that view is
1) The machine could at least allow more expensive start stations (to
return back further than one started from - something I do once or
twice a week).
2) Fiddlers can always buy online if they plan ahead.
3. Southern already have this feature throughout their network.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
unknown
2015-06-26 14:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
I asked today at the ticket office if they would ever upgrade the ticket
machine to allow alternative start stations.
"Then people would not buy the correct fare" was the reply.
Seemed like a typical railway "can't do-won't do" attitude. I know she
had no power to decide one way or the other, but assuming that view is
1) The machine could at least allow more expensive start stations (to
return back further than one started from - something I do once or twice
a week).
2) Fiddlers can always buy online if they plan ahead.
Which part of the South East? Southern machines allow alternative start
stations
--
Mark
Tim Watts
2015-06-26 14:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Tim Watts
I asked today at the ticket office if they would ever upgrade the ticket
machine to allow alternative start stations.
"Then people would not buy the correct fare" was the reply.
Seemed like a typical railway "can't do-won't do" attitude. I know she
had no power to decide one way or the other, but assuming that view is
1) The machine could at least allow more expensive start stations (to
return back further than one started from - something I do once or twice
a week).
2) Fiddlers can always buy online if they plan ahead.
Which part of the South East? Southern machines allow alternative start
stations
Southeastern - Tunbridge Wells to be exact.

It's mostly annoying if there's a massive queue at the ticket office or
if the office on Plat 2 is closed.

I have bought tickets at the machine, then got the guard or Charing X to
refund them in exchange for the longer ticket - but that's a big faff
for the staff.

It's only doing this is quite a bit cheaper than excessing the fare on
the return part.
SteveL
2015-06-26 17:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Just stand in front of the machine, book your tickets using a WebTIS-based app or website, then collect your tickets straight away.
Charlie Hulme
2015-06-29 09:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
I asked today at the ticket office if they would ever upgrade
the ticket machine to allow alternative start stations.
"Then people would not buy the correct fare" was the reply.
The converse of the sort of muddled thinking as the silly rule
that you have to present a railcard at the counter, but not at
the ticket machine.

The other evening we found ourselves at the German branch-line
terminus of Bad St Peter Ording, and while waiting for the train
to arrive I planned our journey for the following day, which
involved a different starting station (Husum), two TOCs (NOB and
NEG) and a ferry, and printed out my itinerary. I could have
bought the combined ticket as well had I been sure what we intended.

If you want an idea what the suggested 'Scenic DMU' for the UK
might be like, incidentally, try the DB Class 648 unit. the
windows are *huge*.

See

http://www.eisenbahnforen.de/archive/index.php?thread-249.html

for example.

Charlie
Sam Wilson
2015-06-29 16:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Hulme
If you want an idea what the suggested 'Scenic DMU' for the UK
might be like, incidentally, try the DB Class 648 unit. the
windows are *huge*.
See
http://www.eisenbahnforen.de/archive/index.php?thread-249.html
for example.
The new trains running on the Chemins de Fer de Provence are rather nice
as well. The first three(?) rows of seats behind the driver are gently
stepped to improve the view ahead.

<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:AMP_800>

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Neil Williams
2015-06-29 20:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
The new trains running on the Chemins de Fer de Provence are rather nice
as well. The first three(?) rows of seats behind the driver are gently
stepped to improve the view ahead.
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:AMP_800>
Any idea what's under those panels where the headlights should go?

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Sam Wilson
2015-06-30 09:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Sam Wilson
The new trains running on the Chemins de Fer de Provence are rather nice
as well. The first three(?) rows of seats behind the driver are gently
stepped to improve the view ahead.
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:AMP_800>
Any idea what's under those panels where the headlights should go?
Some of the photos show them with the panels removed, e.g. [1], but it
doesn't help much. The ones I saw when we were there all had the panels
in place.

Sam

[1]
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:AMP_800#/media/File:Chemin_d
e_fer_de_Provence_DMU_AMP_800_at_station_Annot_28-05-2010.jpg>
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
ian batten
2015-07-02 22:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Hulme
Post by Tim Watts
I asked today at the ticket office if they would ever upgrade
the ticket machine to allow alternative start stations.
"Then people would not buy the correct fare" was the reply.
The converse of the sort of muddled thinking as the silly rule
that you have to present a railcard at the counter, but not at
the ticket machine.
One of my pet peeves is security mechanisms which involve
choosing the opponent you're defending about in order to
justify the controls you impose. This thinking is a clear example
of that: the assumption that fraudsters use TVMs but not web
browsers.

However, I suspect it's an example of what comic fans call
"ret con" - retrospective continuity, where you re-interpret some
past plot element in order to solve a later problem. I suspect
the reason TVMs don't (in general) do arbitrary station to arbitrary
station is that it would be used by a small number of punters but
consume quite a lot of testing and development time, so falls on
the "not worth the effort" pile. I often want to travel A-B-C where
C involves passing back through A and continuing for a couple of
stations (concretely, a couple of days ago, BRV-UNI-NFD). I
get the guy on the desk at BRV to sell me an NFD-UNI CDR, usually.
But this is a niche, niche, niche use-case, and I can do it with
a phone anyway.

ian
Mark Goodge
2015-07-03 06:54:59 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:09:10 -0700 (PDT), ian batten put finger to keyboard
Post by ian batten
I suspect
the reason TVMs don't (in general) do arbitrary station to arbitrary
station is that it would be used by a small number of punters but
consume quite a lot of testing and development time, so falls on
the "not worth the effort" pile.
Speaking as a computer programmer responsible for customer-facing systems
(online retail, in my case, but the principle is the same), I'd say that's
spot on.

If you are doing something which has potential financial implications for
customers, then you have to have a very good level of reliability in doing
it. Otherwise, you will generate complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases,
may actually be breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers
are likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then the
pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you save can be
better spent on making the core process work more effectively.

There may, of course, be cases where implementing a complex minor-use
feature is justified, especially if it has PR benefits (eg, in the case of
a TOC, enabling the slogan "Every fare from every machine"[1]) or where the
niche group of users also tend to be among the bigger overall spenders
(which may also be the case on the railways). But additional feautures like
this do need to be justified by the potential benefits; it isn't something
you do just because someone has a good idea or because a few customers ask
for it.

[1] I like that slogan. If any TOC wishes to use it, I would like
royalties, please.

Mark
--
Please take a short survey on security and privacy on the Internet: http://meyu.eu/ao
My blog: http://www.markgoodge.uk
Charlie Hulme
2015-07-03 08:44:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it
already, so why is it so tricky?

Charlie
roger
2015-07-03 10:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it already, so
why is it so tricky?
Correction. Try booking Cogan to Fratton in August. The least out
of the way route has disappeared off the system again. I had to get
walk to Penarth to book via the ticket office.
roger
2015-07-03 10:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by roger
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it already, so
why is it so tricky?
Correction. Try booking Cogan to Fratton in August. The least out
of the way route has disappeared off the system again. I had to get
walk to Penarth to book via the ticket office.
I'm sorry. I told a lie. They've reappeared again! More than I paid
though.
Andy
2015-07-03 10:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by roger
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it already, so
why is it so tricky?
Correction. Try booking Cogan to Fratton in August. The least out
of the way route has disappeared off the system again. I had to get
walk to Penarth to book via the ticket office.
I'm guessing that this has something to do with engineering works and
the fact that the booking system picks the quickest route by default
rather than the cheapest or most direct.

I want to go from Cardiff to Portsmouth in August and the quickest way
appears to be via Reading rather than the more direct route (which in
August will involve multiple changes and a bus). I can, however, book
that online if I put via Warminster (for example).

What is annoying is that if I go via Reading it will cost more - but it
will save me over an hour in travelling.
roger
2015-07-03 12:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy
Post by roger
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it already, so
why is it so tricky?
Correction. Try booking Cogan to Fratton in August. The least out
of the way route has disappeared off the system again. I had to get
walk to Penarth to book via the ticket office.
I'm guessing that this has something to do with engineering works and
the fact that the booking system picks the quickest route by default
rather than the cheapest or most direct.
I want to go from Cardiff to Portsmouth in August and the quickest way
appears to be via Reading rather than the more direct route (which in
August will involve multiple changes and a bus). I can, however, book
that online if I put via Warminster (for example).
There is an hourly service between Swindon and Portsmouth Harbour during
the blockade, the Swansea HSTs do call at Swindon, and there are advance
fares available for that route. You just need to book them at a booking
office or call centre. Just be aware that the Cardiff HSTs appear to
be cancelled for the duration of the blockade.

I couldn't force FGW's web search engine to offer me that route at all
as it seemed to ignore a second via point. Via Swindon and
Bradford-On-Avon (or anything else further along the route) only gave a
route direct from Swindon to Reading. Most frustrating but at least the
person at ATW's Penarth Ticket Office was very patient and eventually
found the correct tickets and services for me.
Andy
2015-07-03 14:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by roger
Post by Andy
Post by roger
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it already, so
why is it so tricky?
Correction. Try booking Cogan to Fratton in August. The least out
of the way route has disappeared off the system again. I had to get
walk to Penarth to book via the ticket office.
I'm guessing that this has something to do with engineering works and
the fact that the booking system picks the quickest route by default
rather than the cheapest or most direct.
I want to go from Cardiff to Portsmouth in August and the quickest way
appears to be via Reading rather than the more direct route (which in
August will involve multiple changes and a bus). I can, however, book
that online if I put via Warminster (for example).
There is an hourly service between Swindon and Portsmouth Harbour during
the blockade, the Swansea HSTs do call at Swindon, and there are advance
fares available for that route. You just need to book them at a booking
office or call centre. Just be aware that the Cardiff HSTs appear to
be cancelled for the duration of the blockade.
I couldn't force FGW's web search engine to offer me that route at all
as it seemed to ignore a second via point. Via Swindon and
Bradford-On-Avon (or anything else further along the route) only gave a
route direct from Swindon to Reading. Most frustrating but at least the
person at ATW's Penarth Ticket Office was very patient and eventually
found the correct tickets and services for me.
Thanks for pointing me in that direction roger, that will probably be of
use to me.
c***@yahoo.co.uk
2015-07-06 10:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by roger
There is an hourly service between Swindon and Portsmouth Harbour during
the blockade, the Swansea HSTs do call at Swindon, and there are advance
fares available for that route. You just need to book them at a booking
office or call centre. Just be aware that the Cardiff HSTs appear to
be cancelled for the duration of the blockade.
Are you sure about this? FGW website shows the xx:55 Cardiff to Paddington running as normal during the Bath blockade.

John
roger
2015-07-06 13:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by roger
There is an hourly service between Swindon and Portsmouth Harbour during
the blockade, the Swansea HSTs do call at Swindon, and there are advance
fares available for that route. You just need to book them at a booking
office or call centre. Just be aware that the Cardiff HSTs appear to
be cancelled for the duration of the blockade.
Are you sure about this? FGW website shows the xx:55 Cardiff to Paddington running as normal during the Bath blockade.
The timetable that I saw was hourly but I'm pleased to admit that my
information was wrong.
G***@live.co.uk
2015-07-12 13:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy
Post by roger
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it already, so
why is it so tricky?
Correction. Try booking Cogan to Fratton in August. The least out
of the way route has disappeared off the system again. I had to get
walk to Penarth to book via the ticket office.
I'm guessing that this has something to do with engineering works and
the fact that the booking system picks the quickest route by default
rather than the cheapest or most direct.
I want to go from Cardiff to Portsmouth in August and the quickest way
appears to be via Reading rather than the more direct route (which in
August will involve multiple changes and a bus). I can, however, book
that online if I put via Warminster (for example).
What is annoying is that if I go via Reading it will cost more - but it
will save me over an hour in travelling.
Another example is Bristol to Bromsgrove - a friend of mine had to do this regularly at one time and could not understand why the system kept routing her via Birmingham and doubling back - at a vastly higher fare - than going via FGW to Worcester Foregate Street and then changing there to London Midland.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2015-07-12 14:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by G***@live.co.uk
Another example is Bristol to Bromsgrove - a friend of mine had to do
this regularly at one time and could not understand why the system kept
routing her via Birmingham and doubling back - at a vastly higher fare -
than going via FGW to Worcester Foregate Street and then changing there to London Midland.
The service to Worcester unfortunately is rather patchy. A search for
tomorrow afternoon gives regular 2h09 journeys via Brum or random 1h42-over
3 hours via Worcester (including one via Newport and Hereford!), some with
1h10 wait in Worcester.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
roger
2015-07-13 00:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy
I want to go from Cardiff to Portsmouth in August and the quickest way
appears to be via Reading rather than the more direct route (which in
August will involve multiple changes and a bus). I can, however, book
that online if I put via Warminster (for example).
Try Cardiff to Swindon, then Swindon to Portsmouth. You can find these
services on the London Midland search engine if you fiddle with the
ticket options (atm).

Roger
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2015-07-13 01:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by roger
Post by Andy
I want to go from Cardiff to Portsmouth in August and the quickest way
appears to be via Reading rather than the more direct route (which in
August will involve multiple changes and a bus). I can, however, book
that online if I put via Warminster (for example).
Try Cardiff to Swindon, then Swindon to Portsmouth. You can find these
services on the London Midland search engine if you fiddle with the ticket options (atm).
They show in the results for me when I search Cardiff-Portsmouth for the
affected dates. I haven't researched fares, but I would imagine there'd be
an easement for the duration of the disruption (Bath-Swindon and points
east, the peak/off peak times have been amended such that passengers who
have to leave earlier to arrive at the same time won't pay more). Maybe
someone should ask fGW?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
roger
2015-07-13 08:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
They show in the results for me when I search Cardiff-Portsmouth for the
affected dates. I haven't researched fares, but I would imagine there'd be
an easement for the duration of the disruption (Bath-Swindon and points
east, the peak/off peak times have been amended such that passengers who
have to leave earlier to arrive at the same time won't pay more). Maybe
someone should ask fGW?
The London Midland website is now offering advance tickets on the
Cardiff-Swindon-Salisbury-Portsmouth route. BRfares is not showing a
specific fare via Swindon so I assume there is an easement.


(London Midland is good for finding tickets for slower routes so I often
use it.)
Mark Goodge
2015-07-03 16:49:19 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 09:44:54 +0100, Charlie Hulme put finger to keyboard
Post by Charlie Hulme
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it
already, so why is it so tricky?
Embedded software in kiosk devices is more locked down than web software in
general. That's particularly the case if the terminal is standalone and
doesn't simply act as a dumb client to a central server.

You can afford to take more risks, and be closer to the bleedin' edge, if
any error can be rectified simply by calling the duty programmer out of
hours and telling him to fix the bug, pronto. On a web server, that's
usually possible (or easier) because it only needs the change to be made in
one place. By contrast, if a bugfix means rolling out a copy of the
software to hundreds of machines up and down the country, any bug is far
more disruptive and costly to fix. So there's a strong incentive to be far
more conservative on kiosk devices than on centralised systems.

Mark
--
Please take a short survey on security and privacy on the Internet: http://meyu.eu/ao
My blog: http://www.markgoodge.uk
roger
2015-07-03 18:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 09:44:54 +0100, Charlie Hulme put finger to keyboard
Post by Charlie Hulme
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it
already, so why is it so tricky?
Embedded software in kiosk devices is more locked down than web software in
general. That's particularly the case if the terminal is standalone and
doesn't simply act as a dumb client to a central server.
You can afford to take more risks, and be closer to the bleedin' edge, if
any error can be rectified simply by calling the duty programmer out of
hours and telling him to fix the bug, pronto. On a web server, that's
usually possible (or easier) because it only needs the change to be made in
one place. By contrast, if a bugfix means rolling out a copy of the
software to hundreds of machines up and down the country, any bug is far
more disruptive and costly to fix. So there's a strong incentive to be far
more conservative on kiosk devices than on centralised systems.
Does that mean the machines are rebooted from local memory with locally
stored ticket data?

I assumed that they would boot from a central server with new ticket
data on each boot?

They cannot be very locked down as they need to access servers to supply
tickets ordered elsewhere. I also know they can be remotely placed
off-line. Since someone cannot go around each machine on fare changeover
days the fare database but be remotely uploadable.
Mark Goodge
2015-07-03 21:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by roger
Post by Mark Goodge
On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 09:44:54 +0100, Charlie Hulme put finger to keyboard
Post by Charlie Hulme
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it
already, so why is it so tricky?
Embedded software in kiosk devices is more locked down than web software in
general. That's particularly the case if the terminal is standalone and
doesn't simply act as a dumb client to a central server.
You can afford to take more risks, and be closer to the bleedin' edge, if
any error can be rectified simply by calling the duty programmer out of
hours and telling him to fix the bug, pronto. On a web server, that's
usually possible (or easier) because it only needs the change to be made in
one place. By contrast, if a bugfix means rolling out a copy of the
software to hundreds of machines up and down the country, any bug is far
more disruptive and costly to fix. So there's a strong incentive to be far
more conservative on kiosk devices than on centralised systems.
Does that mean the machines are rebooted from local memory with locally
stored ticket data?
I don't know. I'd imagine that they're a combined system that can work
offline if necessary, but communicates to a central server to deal with
pre-paid tickets bought for collection and get data updates.
Post by roger
I assumed that they would boot from a central server with new ticket
data on each boot?
They cannot be very locked down as they need to access servers to supply
tickets ordered elsewhere. I also know they can be remotely placed
off-line. Since someone cannot go around each machine on fare changeover
days the fare database but be remotely uploadable.
Data updates and software updates are different things.

Mark
--
Please take a short survey on security and privacy on the Internet: http://meyu.eu/ao
My blog: http://www.markgoodge.uk
Roland Perry
2015-07-04 06:54:39 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@news.markshouse.net>, at
17:49:19 on Fri, 3 Jul 2015, Mark Goodge
if a bugfix means rolling out a copy of the software to hundreds of
machines up and down the country, any bug is far more disruptive and
costly to fix.
It's thousands of machines, but raises another issue.

The machines are updated with new fares databases regularly, and it
would appear to be less error-prone and a great deal easier to organise
if every machine is sent the entire database.

All that's required to sell a ticket from "anywhere", rather than "only
here", is to use the existing user interface to pick the "from" station
as well as the "to" station, and then make a query on that database
using the "from"/"to" station names rather than the "here"/"to" names.

I think the reason it's not been implemented isn't because it's too
difficult or risky, but because passengers will be more likely to mess
up, and also take much longer to conduct each transaction. Both will
then cause issues with passengers having to use the manual windows
instead.

ps I was waiting in a queue to buy a Railcard last month and overheard
various conversations between passengers attempting to use the adjacent
ticket machine, or wondering if they *should* use it rather than stand
in the queue.

Most people in the queue were not using the machines due to
technophobia, and a couple of people who did try the machine were
presented with a fare that elicited a response of "HOW MUCH!! That can't
be right, we should go and check at the window".
--
Roland Perry
Tim Watts
2015-07-04 08:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Most people in the queue were not using the machines due to
technophobia, and a couple of people who did try the machine were
presented with a fare that elicited a response of "HOW MUCH!! That can't
be right, we should go and check at the window".
It has to be said the the machines have a pretty rubbish interface.

The resistive touch screen (assumption, it behaves like one) requires a
lot of poking to get it to register compared to a capacitative screen
like pads have. The calibration is also often a bit off so you have to
poke the button off to the side.

The interface itself is pig slow and the ticket printing is dire -
getting on for 10 seconds to print each ticket (OK I have not put a
stopwatch to this but it is slow), so that's 20-30 seconds to get a
return plus receipt.

It's not too bad if you are used to it and if you are buying a ticket on
a front screen quick button (eg return to London) - but even then the
man at the glass can still turn the same transaction around in less time.

I know these things need to be vandal proof but there is scope for a
much better design. There's also scope for a lighter built more friendly
design for use inside manned stations.

Not to mention in some places, the machine looks like it will give you a
disease just from standing near it because it's cleaned so infrequently.



My solution is to augment the machines with super fast internet ticket
printers linked to a phone app. You can prep your ticket in advance or
at least in peace. Walk up to the machine and hit "pay+print" on the app
and within 10 seconds you have your tickets.

This would deal with at least half the customers who are savvy and
reduce the load on the windows and full machines. Personal app means
having your favourite journeys stored too so it would be pretty quick to
drive even if you have a small set of common journeys. Pay+print on the
spot means not paying too much if you are late to the station and just
moved into an off peak time.
Fred Bear
2015-07-04 09:53:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Roland Perry
Most people in the queue were not using the machines due to
technophobia, and a couple of people who did try the machine were
presented with a fare that elicited a response of "HOW MUCH!! That can't
be right, we should go and check at the window".
It has to be said the the machines have a pretty rubbish interface.
The resistive touch screen (assumption, it behaves like one)
requires a
Post by Tim Watts
lot of poking to get it to register compared to a capacitative
screen
Post by Tim Watts
like pads have. The calibration is also often a bit off so you have to
poke the button off to the side.
The interface itself is pig slow and the ticket printing is dire -
getting on for 10 seconds to print each ticket (OK I have not put a
stopwatch to this but it is slow), so that's 20-30 seconds to get a
return plus receipt.
It's not too bad if you are used to it and if you are buying a
ticket on
Post by Tim Watts
a front screen quick button (eg return to London) - but even then the
man at the glass can still turn the same transaction around in less time.
I know these things need to be vandal proof but there is scope for a
much better design. There's also scope for a lighter built more friendly
design for use inside manned stations.
Not to mention in some places, the machine looks like it will give you a
disease just from standing near it because it's cleaned so
infrequently.
Post by Tim Watts
My solution is to augment the machines with super fast internet ticket
printers linked to a phone app. You can prep your ticket in advance or
at least in peace. Walk up to the machine and hit "pay+print" on the app
and within 10 seconds you have your tickets.
This would deal with at least half the customers who are savvy and
reduce the load on the windows and full machines. Personal app
means
Post by Tim Watts
having your favourite journeys stored too so it would be pretty quick to
drive even if you have a small set of common journeys. Pay+print on the
spot means not paying too much if you are late to the station and just
moved into an off peak time.
With the increasing number of smartphones equipped with NFC, a
suitable reader on the machine shouldn't be too difficult to make
vandal proof and, assuming the app isn't made by the same people who
do the machine interfaces, may well be a good solution to quickly
selling and printing tickets.
roger
2015-07-04 10:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
My solution is to augment the machines with super fast internet ticket
printers linked to a phone app. You can prep your ticket in advance or
at least in peace. Walk up to the machine and hit "pay+print" on the app
and within 10 seconds you have your tickets.
This would deal with at least half the customers who are savvy and
reduce the load on the windows and full machines. Personal app means
having your favourite journeys stored too so it would be pretty quick to
drive even if you have a small set of common journeys. Pay+print on the
spot means not paying too much if you are late to the station and just
moved into an off peak time.
Now that is an excellent idea.

It also has the advantage that tickets not available from the machines
at that particular station become available.

If there is any problem with the machine at the station you also have
evidence on your phone that you were unable to obtain a ticket prior to
travel.

It will also overcome the problem of faulty machines not being placed
off-line. I know it took at least 3 complaints before the machine at
Cogan Railway Station was placed off-line. (I know because I made 2 of
them and the operative at the information point was already aware that
tickets were not be printed.

What do others feel about the use of heat sensitive paper for ticket
receipts? I audited a proportion of travel claims at work, mainly for
VAT purposes, and found that some receipts had become illegible due to
the rapid ageing of such paper. We recommended that photocopies as well
as the original receipts were provided but I left before I learned the
outcome.

My favourite disallowed claim for VAT purposes was for a station car
park claim with a Middlesex address. However VAT was incorrectly
charged with a VAT number from the foreign quoted which was also
incorrect.
Roland Perry
2015-07-04 13:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by roger
Post by Tim Watts
My solution is to augment the machines with super fast internet ticket
printers linked to a phone app. You can prep your ticket in advance or
at least in peace. Walk up to the machine and hit "pay+print" on the app
and within 10 seconds you have your tickets.
This would deal with at least half the customers who are savvy and
reduce the load on the windows and full machines. Personal app means
having your favourite journeys stored too so it would be pretty quick to
drive even if you have a small set of common journeys. Pay+print on the
spot means not paying too much if you are late to the station and just
moved into an off peak time.
Now that is an excellent idea.
It also has the advantage that tickets not available from the machines
at that particular station become available.
If there is any problem with the machine at the station you also have
evidence on your phone that you were unable to obtain a ticket prior to
travel.
The currently preferred solution is to order tickets online and have
them delivered at the gate to your ITSO card. Whether it's the best
scheme or not, and whether any ITSO card will do, and whether it really
will get rolled out when claimed (eg Franchise-wide on TSGN by September
2015) it's better than the Balkanisation we currently see in the
m-ticket area.
--
Roland Perry
Tim Watts
2015-07-04 14:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by roger
Post by Tim Watts
My solution is to augment the machines with super fast internet ticket
printers linked to a phone app. You can prep your ticket in advance or
at least in peace. Walk up to the machine and hit "pay+print" on the app
and within 10 seconds you have your tickets.
This would deal with at least half the customers who are savvy and
reduce the load on the windows and full machines. Personal app means
having your favourite journeys stored too so it would be pretty quick to
drive even if you have a small set of common journeys. Pay+print on the
spot means not paying too much if you are late to the station and just
moved into an off peak time.
Now that is an excellent idea.
It also has the advantage that tickets not available from the machines
at that particular station become available.
It would also mean the ticket printing machine would be simpler (no real
interface needed, just a couple of lights "ready" and "printing" and
maybe "broken".

Also the machine does not need to understand anything about fares -
that's done on the server the app talks to. The server merely sends the
ticket details to the machine to print once paid.
Post by roger
If there is any problem with the machine at the station you also have
evidence on your phone that you were unable to obtain a ticket prior to
travel.
Good point.
Post by roger
It will also overcome the problem of faulty machines not being placed
off-line. I know it took at least 3 complaints before the machine at
Cogan Railway Station was placed off-line. (I know because I made 2 of
them and the operative at the information point was already aware that
tickets were not be printed.
What do others feel about the use of heat sensitive paper for ticket
receipts? I audited a proportion of travel claims at work, mainly for
VAT purposes, and found that some receipts had become illegible due to
the rapid ageing of such paper. We recommended that photocopies as well
as the original receipts were provided but I left before I learned the
outcome.
I'd be fine if the tickets were thermal like the on-train ones. The
guard's machine prints rather quicker than the dodgy dot matrix in the
Southeastern ticket machines.
Post by roger
My favourite disallowed claim for VAT purposes was for a station car
park claim with a Middlesex address. However VAT was incorrectly
charged with a VAT number from the foreign quoted which was also incorrect.
ian batten
2015-07-04 19:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Roland Perry
Most people in the queue were not using the machines due to
technophobia, and a couple of people who did try the machine were
presented with a fare that elicited a response of "HOW MUCH!! That can't
be right, we should go and check at the window".
It has to be said the the machines have a pretty rubbish interface.
The resistive touch screen (assumption, it behaves like one) requires a
lot of poking to get it to register compared to a capacitative screen
like pads have. The calibration is also often a bit off so you have to
poke the button off to the side.
The interface itself is pig slow and the ticket printing is dire -
getting on for 10 seconds to print each ticket (OK I have not put a
stopwatch to this but it is slow), so that's 20-30 seconds to get a
return plus receipt.
The London Midland machines I use have recently had a new
drop of software, and are substantially faster. It's still better to
order the ticket from my desk and then walk to the machine
rather than use the full UI, but they do now print the ticket
faster than reading a chapter of Gibbon including footnotes, which
they didn't use to be.

ian
Neil Williams
2015-07-05 20:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
The resistive touch screen (assumption, it behaves like one)
All the ones I have used are either capacitive or the beam-breaking
type. None are resistive - those screens are easy to identify as there
is some "give" in the screen and I have not seen one used anywhere
other than printer control panels for ages.

As for phones, proper mobile ticketing is the way to go on those.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Roland Perry
2015-07-06 06:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Tim Watts
The resistive touch screen (assumption, it behaves like one)
All the ones I have used are either capacitive or the beam-breaking
type. None are resistive - those screens are easy to identify as there
is some "give" in the screen and I have not seen one used anywhere
other than printer control panels for ages.
Most likely type is projected capacitative[1] - Scheidt & Bachmann use
it for example.

[1] http://www.nemacom.co.uk/touchscreen-technologies-explained/
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
2015-07-05 20:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
I think the reason it's not been implemented isn't because it's too
difficult or risky, but because passengers will be more likely to mess
up, and also take much longer to conduct each transaction. Both will
then cause issues with passengers having to use the manual windows
instead.
Southern *have* implemented it. I think the reason why some other TOCs
are scared of it is that it might make fraud easier - for example a
passenger could buy two tickets to allow them to "dumbbell" (buy a
ticket for the barriers at each end) without staff picking up on it as
they would if they tried to do so at a window.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Arthur Figgis
2015-07-06 17:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
I think the reason it's not been implemented isn't because it's too
difficult or risky, but because passengers will be more likely to mess
up, and also take much longer to conduct each transaction. Both will
then cause issues with passengers having to use the manual windows
instead.
Southern *have* implemented it. I think the reason why some other TOCs
are scared of it is that it might make fraud easier - for example a
passenger could buy two tickets to allow them to "dumbbell" (buy a
ticket for the barriers at each end) without staff picking up on it as
they would if they tried to do so at a window.
Anyone know whether sales of tickets for travel from Preston Park and
Battersea Park have shot up?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Graham Murray
2015-07-06 18:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Williams
Southern *have* implemented it. I think the reason why some other
TOCs are scared of it is that it might make fraud easier - for example
a passenger could buy two tickets to allow them to "dumbbell" (buy a
ticket for the barriers at each end) without staff picking up on it as
they would if they tried to do so at a window.
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
That the ticket was issued at a distant station could raise suspicion.
Roland Perry
2015-07-06 19:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Murray
Post by Neil Williams
Southern *have* implemented it. I think the reason why some other
TOCs are scared of it is that it might make fraud easier - for example
a passenger could buy two tickets to allow them to "dumbbell" (buy a
ticket for the barriers at each end) without staff picking up on it as
they would if they tried to do so at a window.
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
Post by Graham Murray
That the ticket was issued at a distant station could raise suspicion.
A much better test.
--
Roland Perry
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2015-07-12 14:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graham Murray
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
I thought we'd decided in the past that the gate writes the time/date and
location onto the mag stripe?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2015-07-12 14:34:24 UTC
Permalink
In message
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graham Murray
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
I thought we'd decided in the past that the gate writes the time/date and
location onto the mag stripe?
Difficult to find a reference to that in Google's currently very broken
'groups search'. The best I can find is a suggestion from 2010 that
TfL's barriers might.
--
Roland Perry
Matthew Dickinson
2015-07-13 12:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
In message
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graham Murray
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
I thought we'd decided in the past that the gate writes the time/date and
location onto the mag stripe?
Difficult to find a reference to that in Google's currently very broken
'groups search'. The best I can find is a suggestion from 2010 that
TfL's barriers might.
--
Roland Perry
ATOC's RSPS3000 document "RSP Ticketing Specification Magnetic Stripe Encoding" states that the NLC, the time and the date are written to the ticket.
Roland Perry
2015-07-13 13:14:48 UTC
Permalink
In message <de815c59-be79-4f53-9be8-***@googlegroups.com>, at
05:59:15 on Mon, 13 Jul 2015, Matthew Dickinson
Post by Matthew Dickinson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graham Murray
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
I thought we'd decided in the past that the gate writes the time/date and
location onto the mag stripe?
Difficult to find a reference to that in Google's currently very broken
'groups search'. The best I can find is a suggestion from 2010 that
TfL's barriers might.
ATOC's RSPS3000 document "RSP Ticketing Specification Magnetic Stripe
Encoding" states that the NLC,
National Location Code
Post by Matthew Dickinson
the time and the date are written to the ticket.
Does it say whether there's room for multiple entries, for example when
doing OSIs en-route? (On National Rail as well as TfL).
--
Roland Perry
Matthew Dickinson
2015-07-13 13:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
05:59:15 on Mon, 13 Jul 2015, Matthew Dickinson
Post by Matthew Dickinson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graham Murray
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
I thought we'd decided in the past that the gate writes the time/date and
location onto the mag stripe?
Difficult to find a reference to that in Google's currently very broken
'groups search'. The best I can find is a suggestion from 2010 that
TfL's barriers might.
ATOC's RSPS3000 document "RSP Ticketing Specification Magnetic Stripe
Encoding" states that the NLC,
National Location Code
Post by Matthew Dickinson
the time and the date are written to the ticket.
Does it say whether there's room for multiple entries, for example when
doing OSIs en-route? (On National Rail as well as TfL).
--
Roland Perry
Only the last gateline passed. The capacity of the magnetic stripe is so limited that only the first two digits of the ticket type (e.g. SVR or OPR) are encoded, which can lead to problems interpreting off-peak validity.
D A Stocks
2015-07-12 19:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graham Murray
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
I thought we'd decided in the past that the gate writes the time/date and
location onto the mag stripe?
I think something is definitely written to the mag-stripe. An example in my
experience is at Charing X, where an attempt to put a ticket through the
barrier line twice results in it being rejected the second time with a 'Seek
Assistance' message. I assume they detected a lot of pass-back fraud there.

--
DAS
Eric
2015-07-12 19:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by D A Stocks
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graham Murray
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
I thought we'd decided in the past that the gate writes the time/date and
location onto the mag stripe?
I think something is definitely written to the mag-stripe. An example in my
experience is at Charing X, where an attempt to put a ticket through the
barrier line twice results in it being rejected the second time with a 'Seek
Assistance' message. I assume they detected a lot of pass-back fraud there.
But that only requires the gate system to remember card IDs for X
minutes, not that something is written to the card.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry
Jeremy Double
2015-07-13 05:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric
Post by D A Stocks
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graham Murray
Where both the origin and destination station are barriered, could the
barriers at the destination not be programmed to 'Seek Assistance' when
the ticket has not passed through the barrier at the origin station?
Assuming that is recorded on the ticket.
I thought we'd decided in the past that the gate writes the time/date and
location onto the mag stripe?
I think something is definitely written to the mag-stripe. An example in my
experience is at Charing X, where an attempt to put a ticket through the
barrier line twice results in it being rejected the second time with a 'Seek
Assistance' message. I assume they detected a lot of pass-back fraud there.
But that only requires the gate system to remember card IDs for X
minutes, not that something is written to the card.
And if Leeds is a good example, the system seems only to store the
information that a ticket has gone through the barrier, not the direction
in which the barrier was passed. IMX, if I go through the barrier to use
the shops or other station services outside the barrier and return to the
platforms after a few minutes, I get the passback error at the barriers.
If I break journey to have a meal in Leeds, I don't get the error.

For this reason, these days I use the staffed gate if I need to go outside
the barrier when changing trains at Leeds.
--
Jeremy Double
roger
2015-07-13 09:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
And if Leeds is a good example, the system seems only to store the
information that a ticket has gone through the barrier, not the direction
in which the barrier was passed. IMX, if I go through the barrier to use
the shops or other station services outside the barrier and return to the
platforms after a few minutes, I get the passback error at the barriers.
If I break journey to have a meal in Leeds, I don't get the error.
For this reason, these days I use the staffed gate if I need to go outside
the barrier when changing trains at Leeds.
I am getting through the barriers at Cardiff unscathed at the moment
with day returns but ours are valid for break of journey both outbound
and inbound.

Advance tickets mid journey do not operate the gates but the operatives
now allow exit and entrance to access the shops on the stations. I won
that battle with the assistance of BTP some time ago and not had
problems since.
ian batten
2015-07-04 19:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Hulme
Post by Mark Goodge
If you are doing something which has potential financial
implications for customers, then you have to have a very good
level of reliability in doing it. Otherwise, you will generate
complaints and bad PR, and, in some cases, may actually be
breaking the law. So if only a small number of customers are
likely to use a potentially tricky feature to implement, then
the pragmatic solution is usually not to bother. The time you
save can be better spent on making the core process work more
effectively.
I take your point, but in this case the website can do it
already, so why is it so tricky?
Ticket machine UIs are complex enough already. Web UIs are
much richer, and have the additional advantage that you can log on
in order to pre-set a lot of the options.

ian
Charlie Hulme
2015-07-04 20:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by ian batten
Ticket machine UIs are complex enough already.
All the same, DB offer tickets from any station on their machine
with the local station in the field by default, and it doesn't
really make it much more complicated.

I suppose a bigger problem, apart from the fraud angle, is the
complexity of our fares structure, and all the time restrictions
etc. Even now, the UK machines often don't sell the cheapest fare
(even forgetting about split ticketing) for the journey you are
making.

Charlie
Roland Perry
2015-07-05 06:07:19 UTC
Permalink
All the same, DB offer tickets from any station on their machine with
the local station in the field by default, and it doesn't really make
it much more complicated.
I suppose a bigger problem, apart from the fraud angle, is the
complexity of our fares structure, and all the time restrictions etc.
Even now, the UK machines often don't sell the cheapest fare (even
forgetting about split ticketing) for the journey you are making.
Yes, I've seen some cases of weekend-only Supersavers not appearing on
the menus, but the machines in general don't have to do any more than
show the range of tickets available for the flow. They don't, unlike
online booking sites, have to show a list of trains with different
prices according to the peak/off-peakness of the time of travel.
--
Roland Perry
Charlie Hulme
2015-07-05 19:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charlie Hulme
All the same, DB offer tickets from any station on their
machine with the local station in the field by default, and it
doesn't really make it much more complicated.
I suppose a bigger problem, apart from the fraud angle, is the
complexity of our fares structure, and all the time
restrictions etc. Even now, the UK machines often don't sell
the cheapest fare (even forgetting about split ticketing) for
the journey you are making.
Yes, I've seen some cases of weekend-only Supersavers not
appearing on the menus, but the machines in general don't have to
do any more than show the range of tickets available for the
flow. They don't, unlike online booking sites, have to show a
list of trains with different prices according to the
peak/off-peakness of the time of travel.
Does anyone know they handle areas with evening peak
restrictions? Especially on Northern where higher fares apply to
all journeys starting between 16:01 and 18:30, not just those out
of main centres.

Charlie
Roland Perry
2015-07-05 20:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charlie Hulme
All the same, DB offer tickets from any station on their
machine with the local station in the field by default, and it
doesn't really make it much more complicated.
I suppose a bigger problem, apart from the fraud angle, is the
complexity of our fares structure, and all the time
restrictions etc. Even now, the UK machines often don't sell
the cheapest fare (even forgetting about split ticketing) for
the journey you are making.
Yes, I've seen some cases of weekend-only Supersavers not
appearing on the menus, but the machines in general don't have to
do any more than show the range of tickets available for the
flow. They don't, unlike online booking sites, have to show a
list of trains with different prices according to the
peak/off-peakness of the time of travel.
Does anyone know they handle areas with evening peak restrictions?
Especially on Northern where higher fares apply to all journeys
starting between 16:01 and 18:30, not just those out of main centres.
They "handle" it by offering all the fares and expecting people to buy
the right one. Just as people have to abide by the timing when coming
back on the other half of a return.
--
Roland Perry
roger
2015-07-05 20:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charlie Hulme
All the same, DB offer tickets from any station on their
machine with the local station in the field by default, and it
doesn't really make it much more complicated.
I suppose a bigger problem, apart from the fraud angle, is the
complexity of our fares structure, and all the time
restrictions etc. Even now, the UK machines often don't sell
the cheapest fare (even forgetting about split ticketing) for
the journey you are making.
Yes, I've seen some cases of weekend-only Supersavers not
appearing on the menus, but the machines in general don't have to
do any more than show the range of tickets available for the
flow. They don't, unlike online booking sites, have to show a
list of trains with different prices according to the
peak/off-peakness of the time of travel.
Does anyone know they handle areas with evening peak restrictions?
Especially on Northern where higher fares apply to all journeys starting
between 16:01 and 18:30, not just those out of main centres.
Charlie
ATW handle it by disabling issue of the evening return until 1830 hours
so you definitely cannot catch the 1830 hours services across the bridge
and possibly the 1833 on the same platform at Cogan if you buy a ticket
from the machine Fortunately ATW don't have penalty fares yet.
Mizter T
2015-07-06 14:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charlie Hulme
[...]
I suppose a bigger problem, apart from the fraud angle, is the
complexity of our fares structure, and all the time restrictions etc.
Even now, the UK machines often don't sell the cheapest fare (even
forgetting about split ticketing) for the journey you are making.
Yes, I've seen some cases of weekend-only Supersavers not appearing on
the menus, but the machines in general don't have to do any more than
show the range of tickets available for the flow. They don't, unlike
online booking sites, have to show a list of trains with different
prices according to the peak/off-peakness of the time of travel.
Bit confusing to continue using the now redundant term Supersaver for a
ticket that has another name.
Roland Perry
2015-07-06 15:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mizter T
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charlie Hulme
I suppose a bigger problem, apart from the fraud angle, is the
complexity of our fares structure, and all the time restrictions etc.
Even now, the UK machines often don't sell the cheapest fare (even
forgetting about split ticketing) for the journey you are making.
Yes, I've seen some cases of weekend-only Supersavers not appearing on
the menus, but the machines in general don't have to do any more than
show the range of tickets available for the flow. They don't, unlike
online booking sites, have to show a list of trains with different
prices according to the peak/off-peakness of the time of travel.
Bit confusing to continue using the now redundant term Supersaver for a
ticket that has another name.
Not really, they appear in the fares database as SSR (normally). Except
the ones I buy to London which are dubbed CBA. I can't be arsed to find
out what that stands for.
--
Roland Perry
Jan Mayen
2015-07-06 15:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Could Be Anything?
roger
2015-07-04 20:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by ian batten
Ticket machine UIs are complex enough already. Web UIs are
much richer, and have the additional advantage that you can log on
in order to pre-set a lot of the options.
Ticket machines are still windoze so there is no reason why they cannot
use a slightly trimmed standard web application.
Charlie Hulme
2015-07-03 07:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ian batten
However, I suspect it's an example of what comic fans call
"ret con" - retrospective continuity, where you re-interpret some
past plot element in order to solve a later problem. I suspect
the reason TVMs don't (in general) do arbitrary station to arbitrary
station is that it would be used by a small number of punters but
consume quite a lot of testing and development time, so falls on
the "not worth the effort" pile.
Buy the software from Germany?

Charlie
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