Discussion:
Where is driver's route knowledge written?
(too old to reply)
Michael Bell
2017-08-14 02:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Drivers are supposed to know their routes. Obviously this must be
written up somewhere. Where?

It must include things like gradients, points, platforms, speed limits,
things like that. I can't think of a name for such a document, which is
why I can't search for it.

Such documents must include the sections of the network which it shares
with the T&W Metro, are there likewise such statements for the Metro itself?

Michael Bell


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Charles Ellson
2017-08-14 06:12:05 UTC
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On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 03:19:56 +0100, Michael Bell
Post by Michael Bell
Drivers are supposed to know their routes. Obviously this must be
written up somewhere. Where?
It must include things like gradients, points, platforms, speed limits,
things like that. I can't think of a name for such a document, which is
why I can't search for it.
Most of those are in the relevant Sectional Appendix. Gradients are in
gradient profile diagrams (or whatever modern equivalent).
Post by Michael Bell
Such documents must include the sections of the network which it shares
with the T&W Metro, are there likewise such statements for the Metro itself?
Michael Bell
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Joyce Whitchurch
2017-08-14 09:37:16 UTC
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Post by Charles Ellson
Most of those are in the relevant Sectional Appendix. Gradients are in
gradient profile diagrams (or whatever modern equivalent).
There are also gradient posts at suitable points along the line, though for most of the time the driver only needs to know if the line is going uphill, downhill or staying on the level.

Far more important, and definitely /not/ in the SA, are signals. There is AFAIK no single standard document for these. The Five Mile Line Diagrams made a heroic stab to show these, along with some other eclectica missing from the SA, like culverts and bridges. But they were never comprehensive and don't seem to have been updated much.

I'm sure Anna will be along shortly to tell us all, but the drivers I know seem to rely on three things. These are simulators, for learning a whole new route (and/or traction); cab rides if your employer will grant you the time and organise a pass; and for new or re-signalled sections of line, specially drawn signalling diagrams, often in an interactive form like Powerpoint. I'm not sure if these have entirely replaced the older [1] "yellow perils", which were signalling diagrams printed on yellow paper. The diagrams for the Ordsall Chord have been available since last year, even though the chord itself won't be commissioned for some months yet.

ATEOTD nothing really replaces being at the controls with an experienced driver to tell you where to start braking. Historically, you picked all that up as a fireman or secondman, by a process of osmosis. These days it has to be learned much more quickly and, arguably, much more thoroughly, with more time spent on the complicated bits like station throats.

To return to Michael's original question, yes, it's written up somewhere, but in different places, and not all of it can ever be written up. I doubt that there's any document that says "this bit of line gets really greasy on winter mornings" or "this bit is always the first to flood", but it's the sort of detailed knowledge that drivers store away mentally.

And yes, there will be an equivalent for Tyne and Wear Metro. I can't actually /find/ one on t'Web so I suspect that it's rather more PRIVATE and not for Publication than the Network Rail stuff.

[1] Not that much older akshully. I remember the days [TM] when whole routes got converted from semaphore to multiple aspect signalling over a weekend, often with a new track layout, and all the train crews got for Monday morning was a brief note in the weekly operating notice. But they had seen the new signals being erected in the weeks beforehand, each with a big white X over the head, so they had a fair idea what to expect.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Michael Bell
2017-08-14 11:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joyce Whitchurch
Post by Charles Ellson
Most of those are in the relevant Sectional Appendix. Gradients are in
gradient profile diagrams (or whatever modern equivalent).
There are also gradient posts at suitable points along the line, though for most of the time the driver only needs to know if the line is going uphill, downhill or staying on the level.
Far more important, and definitely /not/ in the SA, are signals. There is AFAIK no single standard document for these. The Five Mile Line Diagrams made a heroic stab to show these, along with some other eclectica missing from the SA, like culverts and bridges. But they were never comprehensive and don't seem to have been updated much.
I'm sure Anna will be along shortly to tell us all, but the drivers I know seem to rely on three things. These are simulators, for learning a whole new route (and/or traction); cab rides if your employer will grant you the time and organise a pass; and for new or re-signalled sections of line, specially drawn signalling diagrams, often in an interactive form like Powerpoint. I'm not sure if these have entirely replaced the older [1] "yellow perils", which were signalling diagrams printed on yellow paper. The diagrams for the Ordsall Chord have been available since last year, even though the chord itself won't be commissioned for some months yet.
ATEOTD nothing really replaces being at the controls with an experienced driver to tell you where to start braking. Historically, you picked all that up as a fireman or secondman, by a process of osmosis. These days it has to be learned much more quickly and, arguably, much more thoroughly, with more time spent on the complicated bits like station throats.
To return to Michael's original question, yes, it's written up somewhere, but in different places, and not all of it can ever be written up. I doubt that there's any document that says "this bit of line gets really greasy on winter mornings" or "this bit is always the first to flood", but it's the sort of detailed knowledge that drivers store away mentally.
And yes, there will be an equivalent for Tyne and Wear Metro. I can't actually /find/ one on t'Web so I suspect that it's rather more PRIVATE and not for Publication than the Network Rail stuff.
[1] Not that much older akshully. I remember the days [TM] when whole routes got converted from semaphore to multiple aspect signalling over a weekend, often with a new track layout, and all the train crews got for Monday morning was a brief note in the weekly operating notice. But they had seen the new signals being erected in the weeks beforehand, each with a big white X over the head, so they had a fair idea what to expect.
Joyce

Thank you for ANSWERING THE QUESTION. I'm sure the gaps will be filled
in by others.

Michael Bell

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Joyce Whitchurch
2017-08-14 17:16:08 UTC
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Post by Michael Bell
Thank you for ANSWERING THE QUESTION. I'm sure the gaps will be filled
in by others.
If you've not found the Sectional Appendix for the North East yet, it's at <http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/sectional%20appendix%20full%20pdf%20copies/london%20north%20eastern%20sectional%20appendix.pdf>. Big file though, over 60MB.

Somewhat to my surprise, I notice that Network Rail are also publishing the Periodical Operating Notices. The current one for the LNE is at <http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/periodic%20operating%20notice%20and%20sectional%20appendix%20updates/lne%20pon-supp.pdf>.

I'm still hunting for a Metro-specific document though. If you find it before me, please post!
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Michael Bell
2017-08-17 19:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joyce Whitchurch
Post by Michael Bell
Thank you for ANSWERING THE QUESTION. I'm sure the gaps will be filled
in by others.
If you've not found the Sectional Appendix for the North East yet, it's at <http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/sectional%20appendix%20full%20pdf%20copies/london%20north%20eastern%20sectional%20appendix.pdf>. Big file though, over 60MB.
Somewhat to my surprise, I notice that Network Rail are also publishing the Periodical Operating Notices. The current one for the LNE is at <http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/periodic%20operating%20notice%20and%20sectional%20appendix%20updates/lne%20pon-supp.pdf>.
I'm still hunting for a Metro-specific document though. If you find it before me, please post!
Joyce

I think this thread has run to its end and no more is to follow. Thank
you for your help.

Michael Bell

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Clank
2017-08-17 19:27:58 UTC
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Post by Michael Bell
Post by Joyce Whitchurch
Post by Michael Bell
Thank you for ANSWERING THE QUESTION. I'm sure the gaps will be filled
in by others.
If you've not found the Sectional Appendix for the North East yet, it's at <http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/sectional%20appendix%20full%20pdf%20copies/london%20north%20eastern%20sectional%20appendix.pdf>. Big file though, over 60MB.
Somewhat to my surprise, I notice that Network Rail are also publishing the Periodical Operating Notices. The current one for the LNE is at <http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/periodic%20operating%20notice%20and%20sectional%20appendix%20updates/lne%20pon-supp.pdf>.
I'm still hunting for a Metro-specific document though. If you find it before me, please post!
Joyce
I think this thread has run to its end and no more is to follow. Thank
you for your help.
Michael, I genuinely admire your unfailing good nature and politeness on
this most unforgiving of forums. We should all aspire to such behaviour
(speaking as someone who usually falls short.)
Joyce Whitchurch
2017-08-17 20:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
Post by Michael Bell
Joyce
I think this thread has run to its end and no more is to follow. Thank
you for your help.
Michael, I genuinely admire your unfailing good nature and politeness on
this most unforgiving of forums. We should all aspire to such behaviour
(speaking as someone who usually falls short.)
We should indeed. I'm still interested in finding a Tyne and Wear Metro document though, and will shortly be seeing a chum who might be able to assist.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Joyce Whitchurch
2017-08-21 11:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joyce Whitchurch
I'm still interested in finding a Tyne and Wear Metro document though, and will shortly be seeing a chum who might be able to assist.
An update. One chum reckons that there might not be a Sectional Appendix as such for Tyne and Wear: "light rail/metros are poor at publications like that". There's probably an Infrastructure document though, showing things like gradients, bridges, culverts and possibly signalling. Another chum suggests submitting a Freedom of Information request.

The thought also crossed my mind that many Metro lines are ex BR anyway, so there must have been a BR Eastern Region Sectional Appendix that covered them. But the last relevant one would have been in the 1970s, which was before BR started doing the Section A line diagrams. It would have been little more than a collection of local instructions.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Clive D.W. Feather
2017-08-15 21:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joyce Whitchurch
[1] Not that much older akshully. I remember the days [TM] when whole routes got
converted from semaphore to multiple aspect signalling over a weekend, often
with a new track layout, and all the train crews got for Monday morning was a
brief note in the weekly operating notice. But they had seen the new signals
being erected in the weeks beforehand, each with a big white X over the head, so
they had a fair idea what to expect.
I have a vague memory of reading something - perhaps in Gerry Fiennes's
book - about a manager standing on the platform at a station on the
Great Eastern Main Line, perhaps Romford or Gidea Park, just after major
resignalling. A driver leans out of his cab:

"I want a pilotman, guv."
"Why?"
"I don't know the road. New signalling."
"Nor does anyone else."
<grins> "Oh, okay."
<drives off>
--
Clive D.W. Feather
James Heaton
2017-08-16 18:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Joyce Whitchurch
[1] Not that much older akshully. I remember the days [TM] when whole routes got
converted from semaphore to multiple aspect signalling over a weekend, often
with a new track layout, and all the train crews got for Monday morning was a
brief note in the weekly operating notice. But they had seen the new signals
being erected in the weeks beforehand, each with a big white X over the head, so
they had a fair idea what to expect.
I have a vague memory of reading something - perhaps in Gerry Fiennes's
book - about a manager standing on the platform at a station on the
Great Eastern Main Line, perhaps Romford or Gidea Park, just after major
"I want a pilotman, guv."
"Why?"
"I don't know the road. New signalling."
"Nor does anyone else."
<grins> "Oh, okay."
<drives off>
Pretty sure that was GFF. Major resignalling around Liv St during the
period where electric trains were introduced on more lines.

James
birdman
2017-08-14 06:53:00 UTC
Permalink
When I worked for the railways (I retired a few years ago )
Each driver and conductor had individual route cards.
All routes that the depot served would be on the card.
Each person would sign to show which routes they signed.
If they did not go over a route for twelve months they crossed it off.
This also applied to traction as well.
Mike
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2017-08-14 22:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by birdman
When I worked for the railways (I retired a few years ago )
Each driver and conductor had individual route cards.
All routes that the depot served would be on the card.
Each person would sign to show which routes they signed.
If they did not go over a route for twelve months they crossed it off.
This also applied to traction as well.
The same thing is now done electronically (and a copy printed as part of
the 'driving license' that drivers now carry), but it doesn't answer
Michael's query.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Matthew Geier
2017-08-15 01:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Presumably what you want is a UK equivalent of this -

https://railsafe.org.au/diagrams/drivers-route-knowledge-diagrams

This is a railway that considers working timetables and 'special train notices' secret and password protects them, but driver route knowledge diagrams are public!
BevanPrice
2017-08-15 20:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Geier
Presumably what you want is a UK equivalent of this -
https://railsafe.org.au/diagrams/drivers-route-knowledge-diagrams
This is a railway that considers working timetables and 'special train notices' secret and password protects them, but driver route knowledge diagrams are public!
The current working timetables can still be found on line at:


http://archive.nr.co.uk/browsedirectory.aspx?root=&dir=%5cTimetables%5cWorking%20Timetable%20(WTT)%5cMay%202017%20-%20December%202017
R. Mark Clayton
2017-08-15 10:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bell
Drivers are supposed to know their routes. Obviously this must be
written up somewhere. Where?
It must include things like gradients, points, platforms, speed limits,
things like that. I can't think of a name for such a document, which is
why I can't search for it.
Such documents must include the sections of the network which it shares
with the T&W Metro, are there likewise such statements for the Metro itself?
Michael Bell
Often on video now - e.g.

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