Discussion:
Was Knaresborough to York always single track?
(too old to reply)
NY
2014-11-16 20:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Although there is a half-hourly Leeds-Knaresborough service, there is only
an hourly service onwards from Knaresborough to York. This is because the
line changes from double to single track at Knaresborough and alternate
Leeds-Knaresborough trains are turned instead of carrying on to York.

Was that part of the line always single track or was it singled more
recently (eg around Beeching time)?

Are there any plans to dual the line (or at least install passing loops), or
is it anticipated that when the line is electrified the faster trains will
allow a York-Knaresborough train to clear that section before a
Knaresborough-York train needs to enter the section, allowing a half-hourly
service over the full length of the line?
Phil Cook
2014-11-16 21:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Although there is a half-hourly Leeds-Knaresborough service, there is only
an hourly service onwards from Knaresborough to York. This is because the
line changes from double to single track at Knaresborough and alternate
Leeds-Knaresborough trains are turned instead of carrying on to York.
Was that part of the line always single track or was it singled more
recently (eg around Beeching time)?
I can't say when it was singled, but the OS Seventh Series map
(1952-1961) shows it as multiple track as opposed to the single track
route from Knaresborough via Boroughbridge to Pilmoor Junction.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/index.php?view=54.00794,-1.43504&map=NPEMap&zoom=14&layer=1

http://tinyurl.com/l6g4c5q
--
Phil Cook
G***@live.co.uk
2014-11-16 21:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Although there is a half-hourly Leeds-Knaresborough service, there is only
an hourly service onwards from Knaresborough to York. This is because the
line changes from double to single track at Knaresborough and alternate
Leeds-Knaresborough trains are turned instead of carrying on to York.
Was that part of the line always single track or was it singled more
recently (eg around Beeching time)?
Are there any plans to dual the line (or at least install passing loops), or
is it anticipated that when the line is electrified the faster trains will
allow a York-Knaresborough train to clear that section before a
Knaresborough-York train needs to enter the section, allowing a half-hourly
service over the full length of the line?
According to "Railways around Harrogate Volume One" by Martin Bairstow, the Knaresborough - Cattal and Hammerton - Poppleton sections were singled in 1972. I've not travelled on the line for a few years but ISTR that there is still space to reinstate a second track if there was ever a demand to do so. I'm not aware of any such proposal at the moment.
p***@gmail.com
2014-11-16 21:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Although there is a half-hourly Leeds-Knaresborough service, there is only
an hourly service onwards from Knaresborough to York. This is because the
line changes from double to single track at Knaresborough and alternate
Leeds-Knaresborough trains are turned instead of carrying on to York.
Was that part of the line always single track or was it singled more
recently (eg around Beeching time)?
Are there any plans to dual the line (or at least install passing loops), or
is it anticipated that when the line is electrified the faster trains will
allow a York-Knaresborough train to clear that section before a
Knaresborough-York train needs to enter the section, allowing a half-hourly
service over the full length of the line?
Not an answer to your question but Harrogate councillors had come up with the idea a couple of years back to electrify to Harrogate from Leeds using 3rd rail and surplus DC stock, showing in which direction their priorities lie.

Trains reverse on Knaresborough viaduct and for safety reasons the driver must be able to walk through the train, precluding certain stock from operating the service.

Patrick
NY
2014-11-16 21:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by NY
Although there is a half-hourly Leeds-Knaresborough service, there is only
an hourly service onwards from Knaresborough to York. This is because the
line changes from double to single track at Knaresborough and alternate
Leeds-Knaresborough trains are turned instead of carrying on to York.
Was that part of the line always single track or was it singled more
recently (eg around Beeching time)?
Are there any plans to dual the line (or at least install passing loops), or
is it anticipated that when the line is electrified the faster trains will
allow a York-Knaresborough train to clear that section before a
Knaresborough-York train needs to enter the section, allowing a half-hourly
service over the full length of the line?
Not an answer to your question but Harrogate councillors had come up with
the idea a couple of years back to electrify to Harrogate from Leeds using
3rd rail and surplus DC stock, showing in which direction their priorities
lie.
Yes it was the shielded 3rd rail electrification scheme that I was referring
to. Surprising that they choose 3rd rail rather than OHLE, but if it's
shielded then I suppose it's safer than ground-based 3rd rail.

What gobsmacked me was that they were planning to use ex-London Transport
stock rather than proper 3rd rail EMUs as used in Southern Railways
territory. That really sends a message to passengers :-(

Question: is London Underground stock a better or worse ride than a "Nodding
Donkey" Class 142? Debatable! Both are much worse than the 15x trains that
are normally used on that service at the moment.

I suppose no matter how much they can speed up the trains, there will always
be the bottleneck of the wheel-screeching right-angled bend going on or off
the eastern end of Crimple Viaduct. The noise of that is worse than chalk on
a blackboard or someone eating or cleaning their teeth with their mouth
open.
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2014-11-16 22:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by p***@gmail.com
Not an answer to your question but Harrogate councillors had come up with
the idea a couple of years back to electrify to Harrogate from Leeds using
3rd rail and surplus DC stock, showing in which direction their priorities
lie.
What gobsmacked me was that they were planning to use ex-London Transport
stock rather than proper 3rd rail EMUs as used in Southern Railways
territory. That really sends a message to passengers :-(
Doesn't the latest speculative proposal to use the D78 stock in the
North of England by a small company involve converting them to DMU's?
Some of the seating area will be lost at each end where a diesel
engine and generator package will installed as a unit with drive from
some of the existing motor bogies.
Would comfy LT moquette seat coverings be appreciated by Northerners
though.

G.Harman
Andrew Clarke
2014-11-17 06:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by NY
Post by p***@gmail.com
Not an answer to your question but Harrogate councillors had come up with
the idea a couple of years back to electrify to Harrogate from Leeds using
3rd rail and surplus DC stock, showing in which direction their priorities
lie.
What gobsmacked me was that they were planning to use ex-London Transport
stock rather than proper 3rd rail EMUs as used in Southern Railways
territory. That really sends a message to passengers :-(
Doesn't the latest speculative proposal to use the D78 stock in the
North of England by a small company involve converting them to DMU's?
Some of the seating area will be lost at each end where a diesel
engine and generator package will installed as a unit with drive from
some of the existing motor bogies.
Would comfy LT moquette seat coverings be appreciated by Northerners
though.
G.Harman
"Eh oop, lad! 'ere cooms th'Arrergate Thoomper!"

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
b***@gmail.com
2014-11-17 23:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
"Eh oop, lad! 'ere cooms th'Arrergate Thoomper!"
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
It's "t'Arrergit " not "th'Arrergate". It's in Yorkshire,not Lancashire.
Christopher A. Lee
2014-11-18 00:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
"Eh oop, lad! 'ere cooms th'Arrergate Thoomper!"
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
It's "t'Arrergit " not "th'Arrergate". It's in Yorkshire,not Lancashire.
My old man's folks (from Leeds, Batley, Dewsbury and Mirfield) said
'Arrigit.

Chris (raised in 'Arrer on the 'iw) Lee
Andrew Clarke
2014-11-18 05:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
"Eh oop, lad! 'ere cooms th'Arrergate Thoomper!"
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
It's "t'Arrergit " not "th'Arrergate". It's in Yorkshire,not Lancashire.
Ah reckon it were "Arrergate" in Thu'stland any road.

Time fer soom t'Arrigit practice...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Sam Wilson
2014-11-18 10:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
"Eh oop, lad! 'ere cooms th'Arrergate Thoomper!"
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
It's "t'Arrergit " not "th'Arrergate". It's in Yorkshire,not Lancashire.
I grew up in south east Lancashire and there was none of this "th'"
nonsense. It were "t'".

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Andrew Clarke
2014-11-18 23:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
"Eh oop, lad! 'ere cooms th'Arrergate Thoomper!"
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
It's "t'Arrergit " not "th'Arrergate". It's in Yorkshire,not Lancashire.
I grew up in south east Lancashire and there was none of this "th'"
nonsense. It were "t'".
Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
It were usually "t'" in Huddersfield an' all, but I'm invoking poetic license for the sake of rhythm and assonance ;-) T'Arrigit Thumper doesn't have the same ring about it, does it?

On the other hand, "T'Arrigit Tadpole" sounds pretty good to me. So if anyone has a spare Class 206 in their back yard, Harrogate / Harrigit / Harriget / Haricot* can find a good use for it.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

*Bean there, done that ...
Andrew Clarke
2014-11-20 21:11:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
"Eh oop, lad! 'ere cooms th'Arrergate Thoomper!"
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
It's "t'Arrergit " not "th'Arrergate". It's in Yorkshire,not Lancashire.
I grew up in south east Lancashire and there was none of this "th'"
nonsense. It were "t'".
Meanwhile, Huddersfieldians call it "Arrow Gate" (see EM2 thread).

Could this genteel spa town's railway station be blessed with the UK's first quadrilingual sign, viz Harrogate, Arrowgate, Arrigit and something in Urdu?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Mr Guest
2014-11-16 23:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by NY
Although there is a half-hourly Leeds-Knaresborough service, there is only
an hourly service onwards from Knaresborough to York. This is because
the line changes from double to single track at Knaresborough and
alternate Leeds-Knaresborough trains are turned instead of carrying on
to York.
Was that part of the line always single track or was it singled more
recently (eg around Beeching time)?
Are there any plans to dual the line (or at least install passing loops), or
is it anticipated that when the line is electrified the faster trains will
allow a York-Knaresborough train to clear that section before a
Knaresborough-York train needs to enter the section, allowing a half-hourly
service over the full length of the line?
Well, the A1 bridge over the line allows for redoubling, and it shouldn't
be too complicated for the bits that are singled (is it Cattal to
Hammerton that is still doubled anyway?). I think the two bridges that I
can see from my house heading out of Knaresborough towards York will need
a bit of sorting out to have two tracks again as the single track seems to
have been slewed and a lot of ballast works carried out on them.
Post by NY
Post by p***@gmail.com
Not an answer to your question but Harrogate councillors had come up
with the idea a couple of years back to electrify to Harrogate from
Leeds using 3rd rail and surplus DC stock, showing in which direction
their priorities lie.
Yes it was the shielded 3rd rail electrification scheme that I was
referring to. Surprising that they choose 3rd rail rather than OHLE, but
if it's shielded then I suppose it's safer than ground-based 3rd rail.
What gobsmacked me was that they were planning to use ex-London
Transport stock rather than proper 3rd rail EMUs as used in Southern
Railways territory. That really sends a message to passengers :-(
Question: is London Underground stock a better or worse ride than a
"Nodding Donkey" Class 142? Debatable! Both are much worse than the 15x
trains that are normally used on that service at the moment.
I suppose no matter how much they can speed up the trains, there will
always be the bottleneck of the wheel-screeching right-angled bend going
on or off the eastern end of Crimple Viaduct. The noise of that is worse
than chalk on a blackboard or someone eating or cleaning their teeth
with their mouth open.
Weird idea about 3rd rail. Honestly don't quite see how it is easy or
efficient to do this. It's not as if there are no level crossings either.

The noise of wheel-screeching diminishes when you have gone that way
regularly over a period of 40 years. The last time I got a train on a
Sunday night from Leeds, as a connection, I got the London-Harrogate HST
and it was way quieter. Having proper bogied DMUs is only slightly better
than Pacers though. Still a 20mph speed limit for everything.
--
MrGuest
Always, seemingly, on the road to nowhere
Daz
2014-11-17 20:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr Guest
Well, the A1 bridge over the line allows for redoubling, and it
shouldn't be too complicated for the bits that are singled (is it Cattal
to Hammerton that is still doubled anyway?).
Cattal to Hammerton is double track, as is Poppleton to Skelton Junction,
where the Harrogate line joins the ECML into York.

Incidentally, the current timetable gives an approximately half-hourly
service until around 09:00 to and from York in the am peak and a similar
extra in both directions in the pm peak, so the line can't be far off
supporting a half-hourly service as it stands.
--
Darryl Rayner York, UK
Mr Guest
2014-11-17 23:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daz
Post by Mr Guest
Well, the A1 bridge over the line allows for redoubling, and it
shouldn't be too complicated for the bits that are singled (is it Cattal
to Hammerton that is still doubled anyway?).
Cattal to Hammerton is double track, as is Poppleton to Skelton Junction,
where the Harrogate line joins the ECML into York.
Incidentally, the current timetable gives an approximately half-hourly
service until around 09:00 to and from York in the am peak and a similar
extra in both directions in the pm peak, so the line can't be far off
supporting a half-hourly service as it stands.
I think the current timetabling is to try and minimise impact on the ECML due
to the Skelton Junction interface needing time to clear and the ECML going
OOS fairly regularly.

Having said that, the Knaresborough-Leeds trains have a bizarrely short turn-
around at Leeds if held at Armley Junction (?) and Leeds West Junction for
any time at all.
--
MrGuest
Always, seemingly, on the road to nowhere
Roger Lynn
2014-11-18 22:10:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr Guest
Post by Daz
Post by Mr Guest
Well, the A1 bridge over the line allows for redoubling, and it
shouldn't be too complicated for the bits that are singled (is it Cattal
to Hammerton that is still doubled anyway?).
Cattal to Hammerton is double track, as is Poppleton to Skelton Junction,
where the Harrogate line joins the ECML into York.
Incidentally, the current timetable gives an approximately half-hourly
service until around 09:00 to and from York in the am peak and a similar
extra in both directions in the pm peak, so the line can't be far off
supporting a half-hourly service as it stands.
I think the current timetabling is to try and minimise impact on the ECML due
to the Skelton Junction interface needing time to clear and the ECML going
OOS fairly regularly.
If the Harrogate line were redoubled, it would probably be advisable to also
add a bi-directional slow line from the slow lines north-west of the station
coming from Skelton Junction to the western platforms 8-11. As well as
keeping Harrogate trains off the fast lines it should improve flexibility
for southbound trains accessing those platforms and for northbound TPX
trains. Does anyone here know what the line speed is on the slow lines
between York and Northallerton?

Roger
BevanPrice
2014-11-19 14:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Mr Guest
Post by Daz
Post by Mr Guest
Well, the A1 bridge over the line allows for redoubling, and it
shouldn't be too complicated for the bits that are singled (is it Cattal
to Hammerton that is still doubled anyway?).
Cattal to Hammerton is double track, as is Poppleton to Skelton Junction,
where the Harrogate line joins the ECML into York.
Incidentally, the current timetable gives an approximately half-hourly
service until around 09:00 to and from York in the am peak and a similar
extra in both directions in the pm peak, so the line can't be far off
supporting a half-hourly service as it stands.
I think the current timetabling is to try and minimise impact on the ECML due
to the Skelton Junction interface needing time to clear and the ECML going
OOS fairly regularly.
If the Harrogate line were redoubled, it would probably be advisable to also
add a bi-directional slow line from the slow lines north-west of the station
coming from Skelton Junction to the western platforms 8-11. As well as
keeping Harrogate trains off the fast lines it should improve flexibility
for southbound trains accessing those platforms and for northbound TPX
trains. Does anyone here know what the line speed is on the slow lines
between York and Northallerton?
Roger
Mostly 70 mph, but 50 mph limit at Skelton Jn.
Is there space to add a third track between York station & Skelton Jn
since they built the TPE depot ?

Bevan
Daz
2014-11-19 14:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Mr Guest
Post by Daz
Post by Mr Guest
Well, the A1 bridge over the line allows for redoubling, and it
shouldn't be too complicated for the bits that are singled (is it
Cattal to Hammerton that is still doubled anyway?).
Cattal to Hammerton is double track, as is Poppleton to Skelton Junction,
where the Harrogate line joins the ECML into York.
Incidentally, the current timetable gives an approximately half-hourly
service until around 09:00 to and from York in the am peak and a
similar extra in both directions in the pm peak, so the line can't be
far off supporting a half-hourly service as it stands.
I think the current timetabling is to try and minimise impact on the
ECML due to the Skelton Junction interface needing time to clear and
the ECML going OOS fairly regularly.
If the Harrogate line were redoubled, it would probably be advisable to
also add a bi-directional slow line from the slow lines north-west of
the station coming from Skelton Junction to the western platforms 8-11.
As well as keeping Harrogate trains off the fast lines it should improve
flexibility for southbound trains accessing those platforms and for
northbound TPX trains. Does anyone here know what the line speed is on
the slow lines between York and Northallerton?
Roger
According to the sectional appendix, 70mph from Skelton Bridge to Thirsk,
with a bit of 60/65mph around Thirsk, then 80/90(SP)mph from Thirsk to
Northallerton (Longlands Jn).
Incidentally, both lines are currently bi-directional from York station
to Skelton Jn.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/
london%20north%20eastern%20sectional%20appendix.pdf
or
http://bit.ly/1qrvjV4http://bit.ly/1qrvjV4 - pages 344 to 348 inclusive.
--
Darryl Rayner York, UK
Graeme Wall
2014-11-16 23:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by NY
Although there is a half-hourly Leeds-Knaresborough service, there is only
an hourly service onwards from Knaresborough to York. This is because the
line changes from double to single track at Knaresborough and alternate
Leeds-Knaresborough trains are turned instead of carrying on to York.
Was that part of the line always single track or was it singled more
recently (eg around Beeching time)?
Are there any plans to dual the line (or at least install passing loops), or
is it anticipated that when the line is electrified the faster trains will
allow a York-Knaresborough train to clear that section before a
Knaresborough-York train needs to enter the section, allowing a half-hourly
service over the full length of the line?
Not an answer to your question but Harrogate councillors had come up with the idea a couple of years back to electrify to Harrogate from Leeds using 3rd rail and surplus DC stock, showing in which direction their priorities lie.
Weren't they the ones looking at using redundant D Stock from TfL?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
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